--- Day changed Sat Dec 13 2014
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01:33 < nmz787> juri_: after getting the package installed, it was super easy to get these examples loaded into meshlab http://www.implicitcad.org/docs/tutorial
01:33 < nmz787> juri_: do you have any more complex/real examples?
01:43 < nmz787> i turned the quality up to 100000 and extopenscad reported With resolution 4.341268e-2
01:43 < nmz787> but I'm not sure what units
01:47 < nmz787> hmm, I found some other 2D examples, like https://github.com/nathan7/nateplate/blob/master/nateplate.escad
01:50 < nmz787> that example actually might be very useful, since it seems to demonstrate some modularity
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07:32 < archels> .title https://www.sendspace.com/file/idszpx
07:32 < yoleaux> Download Aubrey de Grey Response.pdf from Sendspace.com - send big files the easy way
07:34 < kanzure> archels: should i feel bad for never having gone to a society for neuroscience conference?
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07:37 < kanzure> .wik axon guidance
07:37 < yoleaux> "Axon guidance (also called axon pathfinding) is a subfield of neural development concerning the process by which neurons send out axons to reach the correct targets. Axons often follow very precise paths in the nervous system, and how they manage to find their way so accurately is being researched." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axon_guidance
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07:37 < kanzure> .wik pioneer axon
07:37 < yoleaux> "Pioneer axon is the classification given to axons that are the first grow in a particular region. They originate from pioneer neurons, and have the main function of laying down the initial growing path that subsequent growing axons, dubbed follower axons, from other neurons will eventually follow." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_axon
07:38 < kanzure> http://www.sfn.org/~/media/SfN/Documents/Annual%20Meeting/FinalProgram/NS2014/Pages/ns2014_sessions.ashx
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07:59 < archels> kanzure: probably not
07:59 < archels> I have a predilection for smaller conferences myself, anyway
08:00 < archels> it's probably a good place for networking, though
08:00 < kanzure> hm
08:00 < kanzure> so i was thinking maybe it is an okay overview of what everyone in neuroscience is working on?
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08:21 < kanzure> this is a strange ai wiki: https://code.google.com/p/ahuman/wiki/BrainAreaFEC
08:22 < eudoxia> i remember this, i downloaded a pdf of a book from the source dir
08:25 < kanzure> https://code.google.com/p/ahuman/wiki/OnIntelligenceReview
08:25 < kanzure> https://code.google.com/p/ahuman/wiki/OnIntelligenceRewritten
08:26 < kanzure> https://code.google.com/p/ahuman/wiki/ArchitectureModelV2
08:26 < kanzure> "Plausible compared to human - local connections, major components are based on human design"
08:26 < kanzure> "Design should allow using ordinary computer, not Blue Brain one"
08:26 < kanzure> "Design should take into account priority of life features over intelligence features"
08:26 < kanzure> that is an interesting constraint
08:26 < kanzure> "life features"
08:29 < archels> kanzure: definitely
08:29 < archels> quick and condensed
08:29 < archels> the fast food of neuroscience
08:30 < kanzure> https://code.google.com/p/ahuman/wiki/OverallCircuits
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08:51 < kanzure> https://github.com/numenta/nupic.core
08:53 < fenn> hum i wonder why freenode dropped blowfish encryption for for sasl authentication
08:55 < kanzure> someone should try brain imaging plus typing prediction, so that stimulation studies can try to induce specific typing
08:55 < kanzure> you could even have a per-user calibraiton phase where you look at how they type words from a <2k word corpus
08:55 < eudoxia> kanzure are chording keyboards not fast enough for you :>
08:55 < kanzure> and then blast ultrasound to make similar patterns of activation
08:55 < kanzure> no this is an alternative to microelectrode-based methods of dumping bits into brains
08:55 < fenn> typing eh
08:56 < kanzure> the prblem is that if you wanted to insert data into a human brain you don't know what to stimulate really
08:56 < fenn> you know most people aren't hooked into the matrix like you are
08:56 < kanzure> i think many people are able to type
08:56 < fenn> they have to poke at the keys one by one
08:56 < kanzure> so those subjects would be skipped for any of these hypothetical experiments -_-
08:56 < kanzure> shouldn't that be obvious?
08:58 < kanzure> i probably shouldn't expect motor-related stimulaton to propagate information backwards into the other parts of the brain
08:58 < fenn> what happens when you've trained your machine learning algorithm on people who learned to type a certain way and then in the real world it encounters 90% of the people doing it "wrong"
08:58 < fenn> my real point though was that typing is occupying a tiny specialized part of the brain that has little to do with interesting stuff
08:58 < kanzure> motor planning?
08:59 < fenn> right
08:59 < fenn> it's actually big because you have to move stuff
08:59 < fenn> but still i think it's not valuable to be able to force people to type stuff
08:59 < kanzure> i wasn't talking about forcing people to type
09:00 < fenn> i know that's not what you intended but it would be the effect of the experiment you described
09:00 < kanzure> i was thinking that somatosensory stimulation doesn't seem likely to work (for reasons i can't clearly describe)
09:00 < kanzure> not all motor-related neural matter in human brain is motor-execution stuff
09:01 < fenn> it's not?
09:01 < kanzure> you can do motor planning without motor execution
09:01 < fenn> O RLY
09:03 < fenn> what was the name of that EMG collar that picked up subvocalizations from your larynx nerves
09:03 < kanzure> southernstarpaw
09:04 < eudoxia> is that a joke on the northpaw
09:05 < fenn> anyway the fact that subthreshold EMG even exists would mean that "practicing" movements is really just executing the movement at below threshold output levels
09:06 < fenn> have i fallen through a time portal into a different universe again? why do i have to explain this to you
09:06 < kanzure> "practicing" is not planning
09:06 < kanzure> "practicing" is not "planning"
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09:09 < kanzure> i am trying to figure out what this ahuman person has been doing wrong if anything
09:09 < fenn> they had paraplegics driving wheelchairs around with this subthreshold EMG collar.. what was it called
09:09 < kanzure> that was the other universe damn it
09:09 < kanzure> keep your cosmoses separated
09:10 < kanzure> you don't want worms to happen again do you?
09:11 < fenn> the shai-hulud is unstoppable
09:12 < fenn> does "ahuman" mean "one human" or "not human"
09:12 < kanzure> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQbBTlkDSpU&list=PLgO7JBj821uEPwFiOKzetby0W1lBHMhCD&index=37
09:12 < kanzure> not sure
09:12 < fenn> .title
09:12 < yoleaux> Ilya Gerus - Cosmosis // Abstract Space Records - YouTube
09:12 < kanzure> "specificaly against humans"
09:13 < fenn> i think that would be "ahumanist"
09:13 < kanzure> *fart*
09:13 < fenn> wtf they have 550 brain region pages
09:13 < kanzure> heh
09:15 < kanzure> he has some pile of code but it is just basic things like "multi-threaded execution of a pool of neurons" and "generic classes to represent links between pools of neurons" or something
09:19 < fenn> that sounds pretty good to me
09:20 < fenn> the insane over-specification of brain areas and nerve placements seems misguided
09:20 < fenn> as if we could ever figure it all out without actually scanning a brain and tracing all the connections
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09:20 < kanzure> "all connections" is overkill
09:20 < kanzure> not even the genome specifies all connections
09:20 < fenn> of course not
09:21 < fenn> but it's like having a copy of the human genome to look at
09:21 < fenn> vs chromosome maps or whatever
09:22 < kanzure> chromosome maps?
09:24 < fenn> looks like this project has been around since 2009
09:26 < fenn> they were able to localize certain genes to certain chromosomes before sequencing the whole thing
09:27 < kanzure> what about it?
09:27 < fenn> but it was a very low resolution model
09:27 < kanzure> i think there is a strong possibility that neuroscience people are capable of studying the brain in some amount of detail between "the brain exists" and "having all knowledge of all connections between all neurons in a specific specimen"
09:28 < fenn> it's very convenient to have a whole map you can zoom in and out of, instead of a bunch of scattered pictures and a blurry high level overview
09:29 < kanzure> zooming is not an argument for "as if we could ever figure it all out without actually scanning a brain and tracing all the connections"
09:29 < fenn> also you can theoretically run simulations and poke at the simulation in order to see what happens
09:30 < fenn> like the visual6502 simulation
09:30 < kanzure> visual6502 does have modules of functions, screw you
09:31 < fenn> just knowing the structure of a few modules and a photo of the whole chip won't let you make a working (accurate) simulation
09:31 < kanzure> you weren't making a simulation of an existing chip you were attempting to make a microprocessor
09:32 < kanzure> microchips are a terrible example for you to give because we've been reverse engineering those since forever
09:32 < fenn> sure, also if a single part fails the whole thing is useless
09:32 < kanzure> why are you so repulsed by the existence of neuroscience literature?
09:32 < fenn> it's just too much data to ever comprehend
09:33 < fenn> and it's not formalized as far as i can tell
09:33 < kanzure> what do you mean by formalized
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09:33 < fenn> there's no standard way to describe things unambiguously
09:33 < fenn> so you can't just load all the data we have into a computer
09:35 < fenn> it's as if people were trying to make google maps from a bunch of directions given by old people "go over the hill, then see a barn on the left with a rooster windmill and turn right"
09:35 < fenn> but they can't agree on what a barn is
09:35 < kanzure> i think they have agreed
09:35 < fenn> and you're like "just shut the fuck up and give me GPS coordinates"
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09:37 < kanzure> http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/science/2014/12/10/solving-postdoc-problem-national-report-suggests-higher-pay-better-mentoring/GaI3uLT1JmdxaylZHmdIdM/story.html
09:37 < kanzure> "An exhaustive, 120-page national report on the state of scientific postdoctoral researchers released Wednesday urges a range of reforms to ensure that thousands of well-educated scientists do not spend their most creative years in low-paid training for jobs that are in scarce supply." no shit?
09:37 < kanzure> report http://www.nap.edu/catalog/18982/the-postdoctoral-experience-revisited
09:37 < kanzure> "The report, released by three of the most prestigious national organizations in science, engineering, and medicine, suggests postdoctoral researchers should receive higher salaries, better mentoring, and a time limit on how long they can work in those jobs."
09:39 < kanzure> "One of the main problems with understanding the postdoc problem that is underscored in the report is the lack of information about the population, sometimes called the “invisible people” of science. The estimate of how many postdocs there are in the U.S. varies widely, from 60,000 to 100,000 people."
09:39 < kanzure> "They are compensated significantly less than other similarly trained peers. In the biomedical sciences, people spend on average six to seven years earning a doctoral degree. The new report found that people in the life sciences who then went on to take a postdoc job were compensated on average $42,000 per year, while their peers who held a doctorate who took a non postdoc position received $65,000."
09:39 < fenn> huh i thought there were more than that
09:40 < kanzure> "A five-year limit on how long a person can spend working as a postdoc. Introducing a new tier of staff scientists for people who would like to do science but do not wish to start their own laboratories. Introducing a range of career paths starting in the first year of graduate school, to help change the idea that everyone should simply go on to a postdoc."
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09:40 < kanzure> "Increasing postdoc salaries. The National Institutes of Health pays $42,000 per year for its postdoctoral award, and this amount is often used as the baseline by institutions across the country. The report suggests this should be increased to $50,000 per year." er.. $50k is better of course, but this is not going to solve systemic problems. there should be a range between $40k and $500k.
09:42 < fenn> how is "60k-100k" a "glut"
09:43 < kanzure> number of available academic jobs?
09:43 < kanzure> competition with grad students?
09:43 < fenn> "The problem is that any researcher running a lab today is training far more people than there will ever be labs to run"
09:45 < fenn>  
09:45 < fenn> “As I got older and developed more outside responsibilities . . . it became easier to have more postdocs than graduate students because they didn’t need as much supervision. You could have a bigger lab that way without occupying more of your time,” Petsko said. “I could have done almost as much science and just about as good science with a significantly smaller lab.”
09:46 < fenn> sounds like they are in demand by PI's
09:47 < fenn> Petsko said he is the “poster child” for how the system can go wrong, by building a laboratory that leaned heavily on efficient, smart postdocs who could do science productively, rather than emphasizing their training.
09:47 < fenn> how is that "going wrong"
09:49 < fenn> it seems like the real problem is that postdocs don't get enough credit and can't use the results of their work for personal advancement
09:50 < kanzure> eh, sure, their results are owned by the lab/university
09:50 < kanzure> and methods
09:51 < fenn> not what i mean, although that is a problem too
09:52 < fenn> Ydenberg, 33, has an impressive resume: he earned a PhD at Princeton, then went for a postdoc at Brandeis. This summer, a decade into his training, he realized that not only were the odds of getting a faculty job against him, but he didn’t think he really wanted one. He felt burnt out.
09:52 < archels> kanzure: one could argue that motor planning is internal execution
09:52 < fenn> Today, Ydenberg is pursuing a job that gives him real joy, building websites.
09:52 < archels> "all the brain is for motor control", etc.
09:53 < fenn> along those lines we incorporate machines into our body image
09:53 < kanzure> fenn: can you imagine the sort of hell you would have to be in for building websites to seem like an enjoyable career prospect?
09:53 < fenn> you're not "operating a vehicle" so much as "moving with an updated body map"
09:54 < fenn> similar situation with moving around in directory tree
09:55 < fenn> i think that's why hierarchical filesystems still haven't died
09:56 < fenn> it fits our evolved "mouse in a tunnel" navigation processes
09:57 < kanzure> i see no difference between those two
09:58 < fenn> good :)
09:58 < kanzure> refusing to read neuroscience is a good way for you to remain ignorant, you know
09:58 < fenn> i have been reading it, and there's a shit ton, and there's no obvious starting point or sense of progress
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09:59 < fenn> on intelligence was the only book that actually seemed to help
09:59 < fenn> but you're a packer so you wouldn't understand
10:02 < fenn> does anyone actually get something useful out of images like this http://www.nature.com/nrn/journal/v3/n4/images/nrn783-f2.jpg
10:04 < fenn> marginally better with colors, but still a spaghetti ball http://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0149763410000965-gr1.jpg
10:05 < kanzure> yes, i get something like "they have a csv file somewhere that they are not sharing and they are assholes"
10:07 < kanzure> i am really glad none of you jerks have my 2005 position paper on "on intelligence"
10:14 < kanzure> looks like the internet doesn't have it
10:14 < kanzure> but the interwebs do seem to have this http://postbiota.org/pipermail/tt/2007-November/001855.html
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10:20 < fenn> no, a neuron is not modeled by simple integration
10:21 < fenn> the threshold for firing is just a number, but i think biology is like this too (minus arguments about inputs on the same axon branch being stronger than on different branches, i guess)
10:33 < kanzure> there is definitely a perceptron model that involves using integrals over sums of weights
10:33 < kanzure> i am using perceptron loosely here to refer to things that people have called ANNs
10:35 < kanzure> i also don't understand why you think i would think that a neuron is accurately modeled by a single integral, argh
10:35 < kanzure> nothing in that page should indicate to you that i have ever thought that
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12:58 < fenn> is there a drug that will let you remember your dreams
12:59 < fenn> i think this happened when i first ate red palm oil
13:04 < nmz787> dream herb
13:04 < nmz787> c. zachatechi or something
13:05 < nmz787> .wik http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calea_ternifolia
13:05 < yoleaux> "Calea ternifolia (syn. Calea zacatechichi) is a species of flowering plant in the aster family, Asteraceae. It is native to Mexico and Central America. Its English language common names include Thepelakano (leaves of god), bitter-grass, Mexican calea, and dream herb." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calea_ternifolia
13:06 < fenn> side effects include hallucinations, nausea, and vomiting.
13:06 < fenn> so it probably affects the serotonin system
13:07 < fenn> i guess what i'm after is to block whatever happens that causes you to forget your dreams
13:07 < fenn> my short term memory is really bad for about 30 minutes after waking up; i assume this is supposed to prevent me from remembering my dreams since they didn't really happen
13:08 < fenn> hmm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneirogen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Oneirogens
13:09 < fenn> atropine.. no
13:09 < nmz787> dream herb never gave me any weird effects outside of enhanced dream memory and vividity
13:09 < fenn> how did you acquire it
13:09 < nmz787> i've had some for a few years but haven't taken it
13:09 < nmz787> idk internet
13:09 < nmz787> amazon probably most recently
13:10 < nmz787> or bouncing bear botanicals, or mt rose herb
13:15 < nmz787> ya amazon has it
13:15 < jrayhawk> Poor dream recall is a B6 deficiency symptom.
13:15 < nmz787> jrayhawk: this enhances dreams though, unless I was always naturally deficient
13:16 < nmz787> during the time i originally discovered it, I also did the other 'good practice' things too though, so it could have been a synergism back then... like having a dream journal
13:17 < nmz787> its actually pretty cool to randomly open a notebook while looking for some research notes to find it was a dream journal
13:17 < nmz787> 10+years later
13:18 < fenn> but you only remember the things you wrote, not the dream itself
13:19 < nmz787> i remember the imagery
13:19 < nmz787> even now, without the journal in front of me
13:20 < nmz787> my point was, i remembered the dream more clearly when I woke up and wrote it down as best I could, before having to go to high school or whatever and forgetting it in the onslaught of a normal day
13:21 < fenn> that's what i used to think, until i realized that i was remembering the story i had made up to explain the dream, and the imagery that goes with that story
13:21 < fenn> because occasionally i'd remember flashes of some weird thing that didn't fit the story
13:22 < fenn> but there was no obvious way to put it into a narrative
13:22 < fenn> remember is probably the wrong word though
13:22 < nmz787> maybe, but maybe you are more a narrator than an image explainer?
13:23 < nmz787> (i mean maybe we are different kind of story tellers)
13:24 < nmz787> anyway, it's cheap enough to try, and apparently most people don't have negative side effects
13:24 < nmz787> cause 10-15 years later I see it on amazon
13:24 < fenn> there's usually a whole lot of information that goes along with whatever images/places/people are in the dream, and just getting all that information down on a page would take too long, so you have to hint at things instead of deliberately slogging through biographical data and technical terms for clothing and architecture that i probably don't even know
13:24 < nmz787> oh ya
13:25 < nmz787> especially when you're waking up and your hand doesn't want to scribble
13:25 < nmz787> but i remember noting certain key facts about pre-lucidity
13:25 < fenn> or like, if you're a secret agent and there's a whole long rationale about how you beleaguered nation has been in a cold war with bregna for 15 years, you don't really have to come out and say it
13:25 < nmz787> like the radio station changing on the car radio when I did a double-take
13:35 < kanzure> jrayhawk: what about perfect dream recall
13:35 < kanzure> 'cause mom claims to have hours of dream recall per night/morning
13:35 < jrayhawk> impressive
13:35 < kanzure> she says it's exhausting
13:36 < fenn> tell her to sleep in her dreams :P
13:38 < kanzure> yes usually i have to outline multiple separate dreams if i want to have a chance of correctly remembering them
13:38 < kanzure> and then later fill in the elaborations or whatever
13:39 < kanzure> otherwise i lose number four or five
13:39 < fenn> your typing speed is probably a big advantage here
13:40 < jrayhawk> "The present study investigated dream recall frequency and dream content of patients with insomnia in comparison to healthy controls. Patients' dream recall frequency was elevated [...]" "A decline in polysomnographic sleep quality was associated with a decline in reported dream or nightmare recall frequency."
13:41 < jrayhawk> well, thanks, science, it's good to know that things are both correlated and reverse correlated
13:41 < jrayhawk> that clears everything up
13:42  * kanzure looks through his dreams/ folder
13:42 < kanzure> there is one about being really mad at the zoo for not letting me into the underground secret zoo
13:42 < fenn> those bastards
13:43 < fenn> keeping the mutant turtles for themselves
13:47 < fenn> appeared in Denver in 2006 with no memory of his name or where he was from. After his appearance on national television, to appeal for help identifying himself, his fiancée Penny called Denver police identifying him. The episode was diagnosed as dissociative fugue.
13:47 < fenn> dear lazyweb who am i
13:54 < fenn> On May 31, 2009, an Air France plane (Air France Flight 447) carrying 228 people from Brazil to France crashed into the Atlantic Ocean, killing everyone on board. The pilot of the plane reported "I didn’t sleep enough last night. One hour – it’s not enough,"
13:57 < fenn> there really ought to be some simple test where you strap a camera on someone's face and record an eeg while they zone out for a couple minutes
13:57 < fenn> like a breathalyzer interlock but for sleepiness
14:05 < nmz787> fenn: that's an interesting idea
14:06 < fenn> there are numerous systems for passenger cars but it seems like it would be more important for commercial drivers
14:11 < fenn> supposedly chernobyl was caused by sleep deprivation
14:13 < kanzure> well so was your mom
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14:56 < fenn> "Kudryavtsev, Aleksandr: present in the control room at the moment of explosion; received fatal dose of radiation during attempt to manually lower the control rods as he looked directly to the open reactor core; posthumously awarded the Order "For Courage"
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15:38 < nmz787> $12 http://www.amazon.com/250mA-Position-Pneumatic-Electromagnetic-Solenoid/dp/B00A15FUU4/ref=sr_1_28?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1418467863&sr=1-28&keywords=air+solenoid+valve+3way
15:38 < nmz787> 2 position 3 way
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15:40 < nmz787> I think these are the same (mixed reviews of the 3 on amazon) http://www.ebay.com/itm/DS-Sale-3V1-06-DC-12V-2-Position-3-Way-Pneumatic-Solenoid-Valve-/321484652512?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ad9fa7fe0
15:40 < nmz787> $7
15:40 < fenn> i'm utterly underwhelmed by the fukushima radiation doses received ... "Three workers were exposed to radiation and two were rushed to a hospital with up to 180 mSv"
15:42 < fenn> this is the equvalent of living near a volcanic beach in brazil, or 10 CT scans
15:42 < fenn> "acute dose level estimated to increase cancer risk 0.8%"
15:42 < fenn> rush them to the hospital!
15:43 < kanzure> isn't cancer risk like 100% on a long enough timeline?
15:44 < fenn> probability of turning into a bowl of petunias is 100% on a long enough timeline
15:44 < kanzure> i am sure someone has planted petunias in human ash + soil
15:44 < fenn> .wik infinite improbability drive
15:44 < yoleaux> "The fictional universe of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy series by Douglas Adams is a galaxy-spanning society of interacting extraterrestrial cultures. The technological level in the series is highly advanced, though often unreliable. Many technologies in the series are used to poke fun at modern life." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_improbability_drive
15:47 < fenn> "following research into finite improbability, which was often used to break the ice at parties by making all the molecules in the hostess' undergarments leap one foot simultaneously to the left, in accordance with the theory of indeterminacy". It further explains that many respectable physicists wouldn't stand for that sort of thing, "partly because it was a debasement of science, but mostly
15:47 < fenn> because they didn't get invited to those sort of parties."
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16:12 < delinquentme> nmz787, me gusta
16:12 < delinquentme> also you know about the use of mechanical solenoids for controls right?
16:12 < delinquentme> ive been chatting w a dude from quakes lab about this stuff
16:13 < delinquentme> most impressive of which are the switch schemes which require no wash steps ... as the paths which are generated do not overlap :D
16:18 < juri_> nmz787: i certainly do.
16:21 < juri_> first, i have a test suite at https://gitorious.org/implicitcad/implicitcad-tests/
17:07 < kanzure> "synaptome"
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17:31 < juri_> second, i have a very large part i have been designing for weeks.
17:36 < kanzure> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8746788 "The article suggests that SpaceX does not use specialized, radiation hardened onboard computers, but rather they use triple redundant off-the-shelf computers."
17:36 < kanzure> see also http://aviationweek.com/blog/dragons-radiation-tolerant-design
18:07 < delinquentme> TIL!
18:07 < delinquentme> cool solution
18:07 < delinquentme> I wonder if there are instances where triple redundancy is insufficient...
18:07 < delinquentme> this would correlate w the proximity of the sources which do the bit switching ja?
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20:39 < kanzure> i bet alcor has corny videos that go like, "Hi, I'm Max More, and today I am going to show you emergency procedures for maintaining dry ice. In the event that this facility has been abandoned, please see the containers to your right..."
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21:41 < kanzure> hmph
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