--- Day changed Mon Dec 15 2014
00:00 < nmz787> kragen: well that makes it easier then! :P
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00:08 < nmz787> http://diyhpl.us/~nmz787/pdf/History_of_LMIS__FIB.pdf
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00:32 < kragen> it certainly does
00:33 < kragen> I'm still not quite sure how to get useful optical-optical switching out of that
00:33 < kragen> as opposed to mixing
00:35 < kragen> I mean it is still cool that you can electrically switch light between two different paths in 100ns or less
00:36 < kragen> but if you want to optically switch electricity you still need a photodiode and then you might as well just do your computation electronically
00:36 < kragen> I don't know, maybe sum and difference wavelengths can work in some kind of useful way
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04:13 < jrayhawk> http://piny.be/piny-hosting/command/newuser/ I added a thing
04:13 < jrayhawk> er, the other one
04:13 < jrayhawk> https://secure.diyhpl.us/piny-newuser
04:13 < jrayhawk> er, the other other one
04:13 < jrayhawk> http://piny.be/piny-hosting/command/newuser/
04:14 < jrayhawk> I should probably sleep
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05:41 < heath> congrats! we're giving you _% equity, and by that we mean, you can pay us
05:42 < heath> an option to purchase stock for a very early stage startup doesn't seem right
05:43 < heath> I'm being given an option to purchase, i.e.: in order to capture the shares and have them issued to me, I have to purchase them. I have no idea what the price is going to be, and whatever I'm purchasing will not represent _% of the company after future rounds.
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05:54 < heath> kanzure: do you know if there's a common "work for us for 2 week" employment agreement which doesn't prevent me from working on anything external?
05:55 < heath> because right now this stuff is worded in such a way that i can't work on anything without them owning it, nor anything open source without explicit agreement from them
05:56 < heath> i guess i could could use a pseudonym, but argh
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06:11 < heath> #startups confirms, it is normal
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06:20 < kanzure> you can ask them for the strike price
06:21 < kanzure> if they are hiring you as cto then you could probably argue for founder stock, but any other position and arguing for founder stock is exponentially harder
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06:22 < juri_> startups are hard. thats why i have run one most of my career. just starting to get the hang of it! ... at about IT retirement age.
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06:29 < fenn> "Perhaps the suppression of a breast-honking impulse is mediated by the NMDA receptor.
06:29 < fenn> There’s a scientific study for you! We still have much to learn about the human brain."
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06:30 < fenn> you'd think the psychologists would come up with more fun experiments
06:30 < fenn> it is up to us citizen cyber psychologists to do the necessary things
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06:32 < fenn> i saw a guy fondle a turkey in the store yesterday, and get called out by his daughter for it
06:32 < archels> and about breasts, for that matter
06:32 < archels> I propose further study.
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06:36 < fenn> "there was a suicidal girl who went to her mate’s flat, picked up a bag of unknown powder, and decided to kill herself with it, not knowing that it was methoxetamine. She wasn’t harmed, but it ended up in the papers."  that's a safety endorsement if anything
06:37 < fenn> sort of like the fukushima incident; "it ended up in the papers" but nobody was actually harmed
06:37 < kanzure> /topic fenn was only partly harmed in the making of these logs
06:38 < fenn> meanwhile hundreds of people died in a petrochemical plant explosion just down the road from fukushima
06:39 < TMA> speaking of the logs, do you use anything better than grep for indexing?
06:39 < fenn> you could do recoll or namazu or lucene or ...
06:40 < fenn> grep works for me, as long as the log is split chronologically
06:42 < kanzure> worst part is searching for things that happened in the alternate reality
06:42 < kanzure> i hate when that happens
06:42 < fenn> the other me concurs
06:43 < kanzure> reality just spontaneously changes on you
06:43 < kanzure> and suddenly something in history didn't happen
06:43 < fenn> no it's because you spontaneously travel through dimensional portals leading to different universes
06:43 < kanzure> or only happened in some strange subset of history that, apparently, nobody else has access to
06:44 < fenn> if history had changed, your memory would be affected
06:44 < kanzure> and now the logs don't mention the thing you were thinking about
06:46 < kanzure> i was surprised to learn yesterday that mammals have only been around for 120 million years
06:48 < fenn> "You shouldn’t blame yourself; all technological innovations have the capacity to hurt people.
06:48 < fenn> Well, it’s my good Catholic guilt. You can take the boy out of Catholicism but you can’t take the Catholicism out of the boy, and I just look for things to feel guilty about at times. You can take the boy out of 3-methoxylated-arylcyclohexylamines but you can’t take the 3-methoxylated-arylcyclohexylamines out of the boy, they say… "
06:49 < fenn> a common aphorism
06:52 < fenn> i was doing die-ins before it was cool
06:52 < fenn> "excuse me sir, are you all right?"
06:52 < fenn> "i am dead, go away"
06:52 < TMA> I do concur with that. However, I have come to the conclusion, that the "new" reality tends to adjust itself to my memories -- the history was somewhat similar, but the words were different or the whole thing was shifted several years/months in some random direction
07:05 < cluckj> it's not a bug, it's a feature
07:06 < kanzure> http://www.nbi.dk/~natphil/salthe/levels.gif
07:06 < kanzure> "levels of reality and their production"
07:06 < kanzure> from http://www.nbi.dk/~natphil/salthe/
07:07 < fenn> kanzure's preferred schizo-porn
07:08 < cluckj> there are soooo many more layers
07:08 < kanzure> "Being materially empty, it appears capable of explaining almost anything, and so we need to be cautious about its use. Is it a Borgesian cognitive poison?"
07:08 < kanzure> "he perspective that all material systems undergo a development from immature through mature to senescent (which is followed by recycling or rejuvenation). In order to see this, one has to look at very general aspects of systems, such as thermodynamic and information theoretic properties. A key supposition of developmentalism is that if a material system is interpreted as evolving, then it must be undergoing developmental changes as ...
07:08 < kanzure> ... well. I use the following general definitions: development is made up of predictable directional changes (or, deleting the observer, constitutive changes); evolution is the accumulation of historical information. The dialectical model of Fichte and Hegel offers a general approach to development in the context of natural philosophy, where it may for some purposes be useful to construct development as a subjective process -- see ...
07:08 < kanzure> ... internalism, below."
07:09 < cluckj> lol
07:10 < kanzure> haha
07:10 < cluckj> also ew hegel
07:10 < kanzure> go on
07:11 < cluckj> will be slow, baby is using one hand
07:16 < cluckj> both hands now
07:16 < fenn> is the baby at least making any good meta-dialectical arguments
07:20 < fenn> http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Green_ink
07:21 < fenn> i remember some astronomer in an alternate universe who saved all the rambling crank letters they received at the observatory; a large proportion of them were actually written in green ink
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07:31 < cluckj> not sure what pre-object permanence materialism looks like, but it's probably weird
07:32 < cluckj> right now he's working on a P=NP problem; poop = not poop
07:32 < cluckj> heisenberg uncertainty diaper
07:34 < cluckj> schrodinger's poop?
07:37 < fenn> 💩 = !💩
07:40 < cluckj> yes
07:40 < fenn> .wik artificial cloaca
07:40 < yoleaux> "The Canard Digérateur, or Digesting Duck, was an automaton in the form of a duck, created by Jacques de Vaucanson in 1739. The mechanical duck appeared to have the ability to eat kernels of grain, and to metabolize and defecate them." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digesting_Duck
07:41 < fenn> there was a series of modern versions, each one more powerful and more defecating
07:41 < cluckj> haha
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07:43 < cluckj> kanzure, I think you have posted that dude's stuff in here before
07:44 < kanzure> yes probably
07:44 < kanzure> i keep kicking it around
07:45 < fenn> .title http://vimeo.com/45127139
07:45 < yoleaux> Wim Delvoye - Cloaca (2000-2007) on Vimeo
07:45 < kanzure> i am troubled by the lack of a thorough information physics that works
07:45 < cluckj> yeah
07:45 < cluckj> I mean he's probably right about evolutionary theory
07:46 < cluckj> but the evolutionary theory he's criticizing is out of date?
07:48 < cluckj> information physics?
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07:52 < cluckj> you should look into the material planes in which the information exists
07:52 < kanzure> huh?
07:53 < cluckj> I guess I don't know what you mean by information physics
07:55 < kanzure> information is a physical quantity
07:57 < cluckj> yes
07:57 < cluckj> so the information is going to be constrained in its physics based on its materiality
07:58 < fenn> "heat" is generated by bit erasure; any information and energy in the bit is converted into some other form of information and energy; how is this not an information physics that "works"?
07:59 < fenn> some far-out theoretical reversible computer designs even go so far as to pump information around instead of using heat sinks
08:00 < cluckj> I think that might work for some levels of complexity
08:00 < kanzure> there have been attempts at quantifying natural selection based on information theory stuff
08:01 < kanzure> along the style of "evo devo universe" except not made up of bullshit
08:03 < fenn> heh glad it's not just me that thinks that
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08:07 < cluckj> lol
08:08 < fenn> does anyone here understand hawking radiation?
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08:19 < fenn> apparently nobody understands it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_information_paradox
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08:19 < kanzure> this kinda stuff http://accelerating.org/downloads/SmartEvoDevoUniv2008.pdf
08:20 < kanzure> "The second model, the evo devo universe (EDU) hypothesis, considers the universe as engaged in both processes of evolutionary creativity and processes of hierarchical development, including a specific form of accelerating hierarchical development we call “STEM compression” of information encoding and computation."
08:20  * heath reminds self not to click link when the browser will have to first open 400+ tabs
08:22 < cluckj> do natural scientists actually know that social scientists exist?
08:23 < kanzure> afaik they are not aware of any good ones
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08:24 < cluckj> good == understandable?
08:25 < kanzure> haha
08:25 < kanzure> i dunno man
08:26 < fenn> heath set sensible-browser to dillo
08:26 < fenn> you probably have to mess with mime-types and mimeapps.info too
08:27 < cluckj> I dunno either
08:27 < fenn> er, mimeapps.list
08:28 < cluckj> it makes me super uncomfortable when natural scientists start talking about cultural development or evolution
08:28 < fenn> did i miss something, is evolution not a natural science?
08:29 < fenn> "Natural science is a major branch of science, that tries to explain and predict nature's phenomena, based on empirical evidence."
08:29 < cluckj> cultural evolution :P
08:30 < fenn> if anything, people just use the word "evolution" wrongly
08:30 < fenn> i've noticed a trend lately where people say "exponentially" when it's not really an exponential process
08:31 < fenn> "water-based radiant flooring is exponentially more expensive than electrical radiant flooring" except not really, it's linearly more expensive with respect to area
08:32 < cluckj> yep
08:32 < cluckj> they use it as a metaphor....and it's not really a good metaphor
08:32 < fenn> or worse, "this week's weather will be exponentially colder than last week"
08:33 < cluckj> oh god that would be so cold
08:33 < heath> fenn: if i allowed myself time, i would probably set up uzbl again
08:33 < fenn> it's not a good metaphor because people can't wrap their head around exponential functions
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08:33 < cluckj> yeah
08:33 < cluckj> it's a pretty specific technical term, and an abberant metaphor
08:33 < heath> juri_: iirc we met in #uzbl
08:34 < heath> or maybe that was someone else
08:35 < heath> oh, that was mason
08:35 < heath> nm
08:35 < fenn> god what is with that ugly cat mascot
08:35 < juri_> heath: i think we met here, then in #fosscar. ;P
08:35 < juri_> or maybe the other way arround..
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08:40 < fenn> juri have people figured out how to do something like a hyperbolic honeycomb for saving weight in 3d prints yet? http://blogs.ams.org/visualinsight/2014/08/14/733-honeycomb-meets-plane-at-infinity/
08:41 < fenn> if you're just going to melt it all away there's no sense in putting a lot of plastic into a shape
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08:43 < juri_> that's for the slicers. i'm a modeler and printer.
08:45 < fenn> structure analysis and topology optimization are an important part of the design process
08:45 < fenn> but your intermediate form has structural requirements too, unrelated to the final shape of the cast aluminum part
08:46 < fenn> er, unrelated to the forces that will be placed on the final part
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09:18 < kanzure> "Dear Bob, As the project manager at for the NPG content sharing initiative, as well as a long time CINF list member, I'm pleased to hear you expect to benefit from this experiment. Our work is not by any means not complete. NPG and Digital Science (which provides the underlying ReadCube technology) will continue to evolve both policy and technology to find the best way to facilitate sharing in ways benefits researchers and are ...
09:18 < kanzure> ... sustainable to NPG."
09:18 < kanzure> "I did want to make one clarification. This experiment provides free views of subscription content on a read-only basis. It is not Open Access. There has been a great deal of confusion around this, caused in part by media coverage at the launch of the project. Steven Inchcoombe has written a blog post explaining the difference between the content sharing experiment and Nature's various Open Access initiatives. If you're interested, you ...
09:18 < kanzure> ... can read it here: http://blogs.nature.com/ofschemesandmemes/2014/12/05/content-sharing-is-not-open-access-and-why-npg-is-committed-to-both "
09:18 < kanzure> "There have been various other misperceptions around NPG content sharing, a range of which I further attempt to address in post on the Digital Science blog: http://www.digital-science.com/blog/news/clearing-up-misperceptions-about-nature-com-content-sharing/ (To be clear, I work at Macmillan's Digital Science business unit, although I'm managing the project across NPG, Digital Science and Macmillan Science and Education.) I hope you find ...
09:18 < kanzure> ... these of interest, and again am glad to hear you see direct benefit from this step into the world of subscription content sharing."
09:20 < kanzure> "Thank you to Nicko Goncharoff for frankly pointing out that the new NPG plan is not Open Access.  Indeed, one might cynically posit that it is a device to destroy Open Access; some people call it beggar access. http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/information-culture/2014/12/02/is-natures-free-to-view-program-a-step-back-for-open-access/ (Interesting that this particular post is on a Scientific American blog, given that SA is owned by ...
09:20 < kanzure> ... NPG.) Bob Michaelson, retired librarian"
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09:46 < cluckj> jfc I have no idea what to do with myself now that all my grades are submitted
09:46 < cluckj> I GUESS IT'S DISSERTATION TIME
09:49 < kanzure> "did you mean: desertion time?"
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09:50 < cluckj> not yet
09:51 < cluckj> if I haven't completed a draft by May, it's probably desertion time
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10:13 < kanzure> .title http://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/pr7078-14
10:13 < yoleaux> CFTC Requests Public Comment on Related Applications Submitted by LedgerX, LLC for Registration as a Derivatives Clearing Organization and Swap Execution Facility
10:14 < nmz787_i> hah, what... https://www.google.com/get/cardboard/
10:27 < fenn> google's first foray into open source hardware... :\
10:28 < cluckj> if they could patent it, they would
10:29 < fenn> i'm surprised it's not patented and restricted like everything else
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10:32 < fenn> "Use one sticker NFC tag, with 454 bytes or more of reprogrammable message memory. Program it with the URL cardboard://v1.0.0"
10:32 < fenn> a 'cardboard' url handler, really
10:35 < fenn> "Refrain from promoting and recommending Cardboard-like viewers to kids without conducting additional testing."
10:35 < fenn> their poor little brains will get wired up to the matrix
10:37 < fenn> "potentially combustible, especially if lenses are facing a strong light source"
10:37 < fenn> i wonder if we'll see a resurgence of VRML
10:42  * fenn mumbles something about parametric inter-pupillary distance
10:44 < kragen> yay sciam!
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10:50 < fenn> i'm surprised there are no multiplayer apps/games for cardboard
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11:01 < cluckj> "stand around and look like a weirdo" is the killer app for it
11:01 < fenn> i don't need a phone for that
11:03 < fenn> i wonder if a 3d camera like this is any better than just doing monocular SLAM http://3dioo.com/specs/
11:03 < cluckj> hahaha
11:03 < cluckj> same
11:05 < nmz787_i> i am a bit sad the HTC Evo 3D didn't have more apps for it that were useful
11:05 < nmz787_i> and also the same for my current phone, the HTC M8
11:05 < nmz787_i> it has a kinect-like camera in it, but no 3D scanning apps for it it seems
11:07 < chris_99> a ToF camera?
11:07 < yoleaux> 14 Dec 2014 10:45Z <nmz787> chris_99: this is my first attempt at CAD for that microfluidic mixer http://imgur.com/4XgSEWH
11:07 < yoleaux> 14 Dec 2014 11:16Z <nmz787> chris_99: check it out rendered here: https://github.com/nmz787/microfluidic-cad/blob/master/implicitCAD/output/sinusoidal_mixer.stl
11:07 < chris_99> ooh cheers nmz787
11:08 < fenn> 5 inch 1080p display seems like plenty of pixels for VR
11:09 < nmz787_i> i'm not actually sure of it's method, I assumed it was the random binary pattern projection, but ToF may be the case... idk really
11:09 < fenn> really no scanning apps? that's so lame
11:10 < nmz787_i> looked into the SDK briefly
11:10 < fenn> what's the point then
11:10 < nmz787_i> which they /did/ release
11:10 < nmz787_i> chris_99: do you know any CAD tools? or programmatically created SVGs?
11:10 < fenn> "auto selfie" big whoop, don't need a depth sensor for that
11:11 < chris_99> i've only used FreeCad but it did crash a bit
11:11 < nmz787_i> i haven't had it crash on me yet, but I didn't run more than like one caquery script
11:11 < nmz787_i> cadquery*
11:11 < nmz787_i> from what I could tell, implicitCAD made a bit more sense to me
11:12 < nmz787_i> but I still want to replicate that mixer using cadquery
11:12 < nmz787_i> I also am not sure of the real difference between cadquery and freecad's python scripting
11:14 < chris_99> not used implicitCAD
11:14 < chris_99> i need to order those microfludic chips soon actually
11:15 < nmz787_i> I also am not sure how I'd implement auto-connections with these CAD tools, the one way I thought was to add a mixer and say an onchip pump, then when you try to connect them, somehow use the difference() operation to see if the output is null (to know your new connection didn't cross paths with some other existing connection/device component)
11:15 < nmz787_i> kanzure mentioned using SVG to represent parts and also the whole chip
11:16 < fenn> wtf apple acquired primesense?
11:16 < nmz787_i> but I wasn't too impressed with pysvg, and haven't wrapped my head around SVG's ins and outs
11:16 < fenn> cairo is the standard interface
11:16 < nmz787_i> intel has realsense too
11:18 < nmz787_i> fenn: if you had say a line in SVG, could you easily change the width of it after being drawn? like what if your manufacturing tool was large, and your feature would be created with a single pass of the tool... then the output would have to know that was only 1 pixel width for the path/stroke
11:18 < fenn> now that's what i'm talking about: http://diydrones.com/profiles/blogs/intel-realsense-1080p-3d-2d-camera-for-depth-perception
11:19 < fenn> cover every surface with those sensors
11:19 < nmz787_i> but if you upgraded equipment or sent it elsewhere for manufacture, the tool might be much more precise and now that line needs to become 10 pixels wide with some gradient on either side
11:20 < fenn> nmz787_i: you're talking about CAM which doesn't use SVG, it's in g-code (rs-274D)
11:20 < fenn> very similar to gerber format
11:21 < nmz787_i> like if you wanted a curved-bottom channel, but your process always produced curved channels with a minimum size of 10nm... if you were making a 1 micron feature your tool would esssentially be able to make square features becase the 10nm rounded corner wouldn't be as curvy relative to the entire feature
11:21 < fenn> if you have to do that i would strongly recommend looking at CAM software instead of trying to do it yourself
11:21 < nmz787_i> but would the data still be able to be represented by SVG, in that case, or would all the modelling take place in CAM world?
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11:26 < fenn> svg only represents 2d geometry with height values, so you couldn't do a curved-bottom channel for instane
11:27 < nmz787_i> sure you can, with greyscale gradients
11:27 < nmz787_i> (which is how the FIB or lithography tools would need to consume the data)
11:28 < fenn> uh, uh, i'm going to pretend i didn't see that
11:28 < nmz787_i> please see it
11:28 < fenn> who are you and what are you doing in my house!
11:28 < nmz787_i> wait this is a yurt?
11:29 < fenn> a cyberyurt
11:29 < fenn> .wik merkabah
11:29 < yoleaux> "Merkabah/Merkavah mysticism (or Chariot mysticism) is a school of early Jewish mysticism, c. 100 BCE – 1000 CE, centered on visions such as those found in the Book of Ezekiel chapter 1, or in the hekhalot ("palaces") literature, concerning stories of ascents to the heavenly palaces and the Throne of God." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkabah
11:30 < fenn> ah jeez i'm having no luck with this lately
11:30 < nmz787_i> 'I got hekhalot of house'
11:31 < fenn> "The Merkabah Vehicle is the means for travelling to higher dimensional planes and for ascending the physical body out of the 3rd dimension."
11:31 < nmz787_i> "I got a 'hekhalot of problems but my yurt ain't one"
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11:35 < kragen> nmz787_i: yes, you can easily change the width of a line in SVG
11:36 < kragen> finding out what the width of the line is in the first place is potentially tricky
11:36 < fenn> kragen he means changing the tool width without changing the line width
11:36 < fenn> to do square corners for example
11:36 < kragen> fenn: do you have a recommendation for open-source CAM software? other than slic3r, skeinforge, and cura, I mean
11:36 < nmz787_i> fenn: well both sort of.... it would be nice to draw the diagram, then change all line widths together after the fact
11:37 < nmz787_i> maybe
11:37 < kragen> nmz787_i: SVG supports CSS :)
11:37 < fenn> pyCAM was looking usable several years ago for 2.5D
11:37 < kragen> which is why finding out the width of a line is potentially tricky
11:37 < nmz787_i> hmm
11:38 < nmz787_i> yeah I'd need to have a way to auto-route essentially
11:38 < nmz787_i> which would mean creating connections, then testing for intersection
11:38 < nmz787_i> at a minimum
11:39 < nmz787_i> or at least I'd like the architecture to be extensible to that
11:39 < kragen> (also line width can be affected by coordinate system transforms; SVG, like PostScript, allows you to do your drawing inside an arbitrary nest of transformation matrices)
11:39  * nmz787_i really doesn't even comprehend that
11:39 < kragen> you probably want to test for intersection with something simpler than SVG, or for that matter G-Code. although it could be an SVG subset
11:40 < kragen> nmz787_i: take a look at http://canonical.org/~kragen/sw/dev3/tictactoe
11:40 < kragen> view the source, it's short
11:40 < ParahSailin> paperbot: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/chem.200305470/pdf
11:41 < kanzure> haha paperbot hates us :(
11:41 < kragen> it has three <path>s in it; the first is the tic-tac-toe board, the second is the X, and the third is the "tic-tac-toe, three in a row!" red diagonal
11:41 < kragen> which last is nested inside four <g>s, each with its own @transform
11:42 < kragen> the composition of those four @transforms transforms the declared stroke-width into the physical stroke-width
11:43 < kanzure> http://forexmagnates.com/first-regulated-bitcoin-exchange-ledgerxs-application-gets-public-consultation-cftc/
11:43 < kragen> you can also see that there's visually a bug in the positioning of the nested tic-tac-toes
11:44 < nmz787_i> oh, slight-left justification?
11:46 < kragen> yeah, upper-left
11:47 < fenn> kanzure can you explain in one sentence what legerX does?
11:47 < kragen> I screwed something up with the various transforms but I'm not quite sure what
11:47 < kragen> when I do this for real I probably won't use nested SVG transforms or <use> and <defs>
11:47 < kragen> replacing them with abstraction facilities of a programming language
11:48 < kragen> but these facilities of SVG were really handy for prototyping.  SVG is even better than PostScript, which is saying a LOT
11:48 < kanzure> fenn: ask skyraider
11:48 < nmz787_i> what sets the rendering 'accuracy'... i.e. if you had a circle, how large the circumference ends up? in my browser I know I can zoom in and out
11:48 < kragen> and also a LOT more readable afterwards
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11:49 < kragen> I don't understand how "what sets the rendering 'accuracy'?" could be the same question as "how large the circumference ends up?"?
11:49 < kragen> do you mean what sets the scale?
11:50 < nmz787_i> yeah I guess
11:50 < kragen> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/coords.html#InitialCoordinateSystem
11:50 < kragen> "For the outermost svg element, the SVG user agent determines an initial viewport coordinate system and an initial user coordinate system such that the two coordinates systems are identical. The origin of both coordinate systems is at the origin of the viewport, and one unit in the initial coordinate system equals one "pixel" (i.e., a px unit as defined in CSS2 ([CSS2], section 4.3.2) in the viewport."
11:51 < fenn> if you're building real stuff you should use a real unit like mm
11:52 < cluckj> heheh unit
11:53 < kragen> yes, it's unfortunate that SVG has chosen to define its units in terms of visual angle subtended
11:53 < nmz787_i> well pixel is a real data unit
11:53 < kragen> "It is recommended that the reference pixel be the visual angle of one pixel on a device with a pixel density of 90dpi and a distance from the reader of an arm's length. For a nominal arm's length of 28 inches, the visual angle is therefore about 0.0227 degrees. ¶ For reading at arm's length, 1px thus corresponds to about 0.28 mm (1/90 inch). When printed on a laser printer, meant for reading at a little less than arm's length (55 cm, 21 inch
11:54 < kragen> that's from http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-CSS2-20080411/syndata.html#length-units, which is linked from "as defined in CSS2" above
11:54 < fenn> "recommendation" != "definition"
11:54 < nmz787_i> for stuff like FIB or lithography, there will be a zoom feature on the instrument, so it isn't a terrible thing to think in terms of pixels I think
11:54 < fenn> anyway that's stupid to definte it perceptually
11:54 < nmz787_i> oh
11:54 < nmz787_i> huh
11:54 < nmz787_i> weird
11:54 < kragen> fenn: you can file a bug on the SVG TR suggesting changing "as defined in CSS2" to "as recommended in CSS2"
11:54 < fenn> how are you supposed to describe the actual device pixel size
11:55 < kragen> what are W3C TR bugs called? errata?
11:55 < fenn> .ud errata
11:55 < kragen> you are not supposed to describe the actual device pixel size
11:55 < yoleaux> ENOTFOUND
11:55 < fenn> aw
11:57 < fenn> i thought errata just meant miscellaneous
11:57 < fenn> "A list of errors together with the corrections for the errors, added as a separate page of a text prior to publication"
11:57 < kragen> no, that means "errors"
11:58 < kragen> .ety errata
11:58 < yoleaux> errata (n.): ""list of corrections attached to a printed book," 1580s, plural of erratum (q.v.)." — http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=errata
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11:58 < kragen> SVG permits you to use physical units like in and mm
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11:58 < kragen> but not, I think, in coordinate system transformations
11:59 < fenn> yes, any transformations are in the current coordinate system which is unitless; the math to device transformation is defined in units like px or mm
11:59 < nmz787_i> and what are the transforms for? just scaling some existing SVG 'object'?
12:00 < kragen> transforms allow you to scale, reflect, translate, and skew
12:00 < fenn> you can switch device transforms in a document though
12:00 < kragen> not just scale
12:00 < kragen> what do you mean?
12:00 < fenn> if you want to make a circle that's 100px wide and another that's 100mm wide
12:00 < poppingtonic> constructortheory.org
12:01 < kragen> I think so, yes
12:01 < fenn> guh didn't we get all this constructionist stuff out of the way with "principia mathematica"
12:02 < fenn> "Quantum & Nanotechnology Theory Group"
12:03 < poppingtonic> fenn: It's different from 'principia'. They're trying to prove that there are principles of reality, much like the 2nd law of thermodynamics, that constrain what's possible and what isn't. Has bits of quantum information, and one of the collaborators wrote a paper on its connection to life.
12:04 < fenn> kragen: i don't like the definition of pixel because it gives you blurry edges when printing on devices that don't have an easy way of turning off dithering, such as laser printers
12:05 < fenn> and blurry is just a bunch of random dots that aren't connected to anything
12:05 < fenn> or worse, they are connected to the thing you wanted to be smooth
12:06 < fenn> if you know the DPI of your device you can define dimensions rounded to the nearest pixel dimension
12:06 < nmz787_i> I really didn't like SVG export from InkScape when I was trying to determine the smallest feature my laser printer could print
12:07 < nmz787_i> I ended up using MS Paint or GIMP with a single-pixel pencil tool
12:07 < fenn> (somehow i think kragen knows all this already)
12:07 < nmz787_i> so that would definitely bad to not have control over
12:07 < nmz787_i> idk if that was inkscape sucking at export options,  or SVG in general
12:08 < fenn> what did you export to?
12:12 < nmz787_i> bmp
12:12 < nmz787_i> I may have tried PDF too
12:12 < nmz787_i> I can't remember
12:13 < fenn> i dont think bmp allows control over dpi?
12:14 < nmz787_i> i remember the printer dialog had some DPI setting
12:14 < fenn> that may not matter
12:14 < nmz787_i> I tried a ton of different combos
12:15 < nmz787_i> of driver settings (I remember 'quality' was one)
12:15 < fenn> ideally laser printers would just let us dump 6000x10000 pixel bitmaps at them, or real postscript support
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12:19 < fenn> not having access to the native device output format makes for ugly stickers
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14:01 < kanzure> cluckj: do you know of any good simulations of punctuated equilibria
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14:27 < heath> someone know a wealthy prince in nigeria?
14:27 < heath> i'm kidding, but i really am looking for some wealthy banker type in nigeria
14:28 < chris_99> don't you get lots of emails from princes?
14:29 < heath> chris_99: if i'm not using spam protection, i suppose
14:29 < heath> but wow, that was when I used AOL in the late 90s
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14:32 < nmz787_i> nigeria had princes way back then, huh, who knew?
14:32 < chris_99> heh
14:56 < cluckj> kanzure, nope
14:57 < cluckj> there was a evolutionary modeling software package I used like 7 years ago when I was teaching bio
14:57 < cluckj> I have no recollection of what it was called tho
15:01 < kragen> fenn: yes, I need to figure out how to align my SVG or PDF coordinate system with printer device pixels so that I can use my n×6 pixel font to print at 100 lines of text per inch
15:01 < kragen> I think HP-PCL does let you dump multi-megapixel device-resolution bitmaps at it
15:01 < kragen> but then again so does PostScript
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15:25 < kragen> so http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/coords.html#Units says "All coordinates and lengths in SVG can be specified with or without a unit identifier."  however, <path stroke="#333" d="M10mm,10mm L20mm,20mm" /> absolutely does not work in Firefox, and I think it's also excluded by the grammar
15:26 < kragen> similarlty <path stroke="#f00" d="M10,20 L30,40" transform="scale(10mm)" />
15:26 < kragen> does not work
15:27 < kragen> "Unexpected value scale(10mm) parsing transform attribute."
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15:35 < kragen> aha.
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15:38 < kragen> <svg height="40mm" width="40mm" viewBox="0 0 40 40"><path stroke="#f00" d="M10,10 L20,20" /></svg>
15:40 < kragen> by setting viewBox you can change the units explicitly
15:40 < kragen> data:text/html,<svg height='40mm' width='40mm' viewBox='0 0 40 40'><path stroke='red' d='M10,10 L20,20' /></svg>
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16:48 < bbrittain> ok. salmnilla HIN recombinase
16:48 < bbrittain> this is some cool stuff
16:49  * bbrittain is having my mind blown
16:49 < bbrittain> fucking "pre-adaptation"
16:52 < kanzure> hm?
16:53 < bbrittain> I'm just occasionally really excited about something I learn... but I can't talk with my coworkers because they'd be like "yea, I geeked out about that years ago"
16:53 < bbrittain> :(
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17:00 < fenn> bbrittain: please state why it is exciting
17:01 < fenn> can you use HIN in some way to do genetic engineering? or is it just a neat thing the bacterium does
17:04 < bbrittain> fenn: oh sorry, It's just a neat little adaptation
17:04 < kanzure> well?
17:04 < bbrittain> there would be no reason to use it when you have other things
17:04 < kanzure> you are the worst
17:04 < bbrittain> yea, probably
17:04 < kanzure> can you describe what you are tlaking about
17:04 < kanzure> in a way that does not involve not explaining
17:05 < fenn> tldr HIN is a transcription regulator that works by cutting a piece of dna out and flipping it around to toggle gene expression
17:05 < kanzure> ah okay
17:05 < bbrittain> yea, but it does that because flagella are targetted heavily
17:05 < fenn> it does this to hide flagellar proteins to prevent immune response against it
17:05 < bbrittain> so it flips around to prevent entire populations from being cilled
17:05 < bbrittain> killed
17:05 < bbrittain> fenn++
17:06 < bbrittain> in the future, I'm just gonna continue making vaugerys and having fenn explain it, cool?
17:06 < kanzure> this kills your fenn
17:06 < fenn> bbrittain: have you read about the antibody dna randomization process?
17:06 < fenn> er, how the human immune system comes up with antibody sequences
17:07 < bbrittain> no! any awesome links, or should I google?
17:07 < fenn> i learned about this in school, but i guess you should start here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibody#Immunoglobulin_diversity
17:09 < bbrittain> very cool, I'll have to read more
17:10 < fenn> since we have the sequence it should be possible to calculate the number of possible antibody permutations
17:11 < fenn> aha 3e11 combinations
17:11 < bbrittain> and then design a virus that can't be targeted by those combinations :/
17:11 < fenn> there are other mechanisms besides b-cells
17:11 < bbrittain> 3e11, good job immune system
17:12 < bbrittain> ok, human immune system is not a box I should open apparently
17:12 < fenn> it's ridiculously complicated
17:13 < bbrittain> bacteria "immune systems", I like them. simple.
17:13 < bbrittain> cas genes!
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17:15 < fenn> are bacterial "immune systems" mostly just dna sequence recognition and antibiotics?
17:16 < fenn> i mean they can't just drop a superoxide bomb
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17:17 < bbrittain> fenn: mostly just sequence recognition and then some fancy cutting.
17:17 < fenn> hrm "Superoxide-producing bacteria form away from sunlight and live in dark places like lake, ocean depths and underground soils"
17:17 < bbrittain> huh, I didn't know about them
17:18 < bbrittain> but my understanding is that this is essentially only eukaryote. prokaryote essentially just die.
17:18 < bbrittain> a lot.
17:19 < fenn> to die, first one must live.
17:19 < kanzure> if you call that living
17:19  * fenn bestows wisdom upon ##hplusroadmap
17:19 < kanzure> death is just a state of mind
17:20 < fenn> preach it brother
17:20 < bbrittain> does one only live if you don't understand it?
17:20 < kanzure> "The power of ahimsa is not just the readiness to die. It is the willingness to live."
17:20 < kanzure> so preacheth the great ede computer man
17:21 < kanzure> to die is to live
17:21 < kanzure> i don't have many more of these
17:22 < kanzure> maybe one day a less ridiculous verison of neverness will happen
17:22 < bbrittain> bullshit on the last one. aren't we in ##hplusroadmap?
17:23 < kanzure> bbrittain: you are reading quotes from http://www.aleph.se/Trans/Cultural/Art/zindell.html
17:23 < bbrittain> what is this site?
17:23 < fenn> "Some Jains abstain from farming because it inevitably entails unintentional killing or injuring of many small animals, such as worms and insects"
17:23 < kanzure> anders sandberg used to be a transhumanist before he became a dark lord of the sith
17:23 < kanzure> this is all that remains of his once great ambition
17:23 < fenn> i wonder how they survive without farming or hunting or fishing
17:24 < bbrittain> they won't even eat root vegetables
17:25 < fenn> "You must remember that an oak tree is not a crime against the acorn."
17:25 < kanzure> "You must become like oak tree growing in salty desert."
17:25 < fenn> oak trees don't grow in salty deserts...
17:26 < kanzure> why would i have to remember stuff about oak tree crimes, they don't even have crimes
17:27 < kanzure> "You must remember that your concept of crimes is full of shit"
17:27 < bbrittain> bullshit, "The Trees" - Rush
17:27  * bbrittain hides himself in shame for bringing up pop culture
17:28 < kanzure> your punishment is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_SoJUWoaYI
17:28 < fenn> So the maples formed a union
17:28 < fenn> And demanded equal rights.
17:28 < fenn> "These oaks are just too greedy;
17:28 < fenn> We will make them give us light."
17:28 < kanzure> followed by https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGgDMjA-agg&t=1m
17:29 < fenn> Now there's no more oak oppression,
17:29 < fenn> For they passed a noble law,
17:29 < bbrittain> who did this anders guy do to become a dark lord of the sith?
17:29 < fenn> And the trees are all kept equal
17:29 < fenn> By hatchet, axe, and saw.
17:29 < kanzure> bbrittain: he gave everything up to espouse the great evils of transhumanists and how they will cause the world to blow up
17:29 < bbrittain> shit, he's onto us
17:29 < bbrittain> link?
17:29 < kanzure> http://www.nickbostrom.com/
17:29 < kanzure> Director, Future of Humanity
17:30 < bbrittain> wait, I love http://www.nickbostrom.com/fable/dragon.html
17:30 < kanzure> you should be informed that i have impossibly high standards
17:31 < fenn> it's a nice fairy tale, but anders has better things to do than write children's books
17:31 < kanzure> anders doesn't need to sit around writing papers, he should be building shit, writing code, doing project management, anything
17:31 < kanzure> get some kid to write your papers for you, geeze
17:32 < bbrittain> that paper has gotten some people I know to grasp what I'm saying
17:32 < bbrittain> but in general, I agree
17:32 < kanzure> hmm nick bostrom's homepage is not as bad as i remember
17:32 < kanzure> anyway their institute is much more interested in worrying about existential risks than they are interested in building anything
17:33 < kanzure> they should calculate the existential risk of anders sandberg being consumed entirely by the activity of calculating existential risks
17:34 < kanzure> also, the only reason i am so hard on him is because in principle i agree so strongly with his prior self
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17:36 < fenn> the recursive evaluation caused anders sandberg to spiral into a neverending cycle of analysis
17:36 < kanzure> i don't think that's what happened
17:36 < fenn> meh
17:36 < kanzure> i think he just didn't have any money and any good ideas for how to do anything
17:36 < fenn> i have no idea what he's doing now
17:36 < kanzure> hanging out with bostrom writing papers and drafts
17:38 < bbrittain> I kinda wish that people would shut up about h+ stuff tbh. I feel like it is too easy to miscommunicate the public, and they get scared
17:38 < bbrittain> which results in weird legislation
17:38 < fenn> calculating death rays apparently http://aleph.se/andart2/space/a-sustainable-orbital-death-ray/
17:43 < bbrittain> https://today.yougov.com/news/2014/12/15/will-artificial-intelligence-lead-end-humanity/
17:43 < bbrittain> .title
17:44 < yoleaux> Young people most worried about A.I. apocalypse
17:44 < kanzure> the lack of engagement of transhumanists in molecular biology has always been very suspicious to me
17:44 < fenn> any weird legislation in particular? i haven't seen any laws against nanotechnology or AI or whatever
17:44 < kanzure> there was that stupid self-regulation imposed moratorium on recombinant dna in the 70s
17:44 < bbrittain> fenn: I hear a lot about synthetic biology legislation at work
17:45 < bbrittain> and all sorts of weird proposals
17:45 < fenn> isn't that mostly about viruses and weapons?
17:45 < bbrittain> another thing, people need to stop over promising syn bio stuff
17:45 < bbrittain> sorta, mostly gmo stuff
17:46 < fenn> hmm
17:46 < fenn> not sure making corn more pesticide tolerant qualifies as transhumanist
17:47 < bbrittain> meh. some of the stuff we do at work is on the border
17:47 < bbrittain> we don't do ag stuff
17:47 < bbrittain> thank god
17:47  * bbrittain would quit
17:47 < kanzure> oh brother
17:48 < kanzure> that's the most racist thing ever
17:48 < kanzure> you wont work on plants? fuck you
17:48 < fenn> there's plenty of cool stuff to be done, but monsanto et al aren't doing it
17:48 < fenn> speciesist
17:48 < bbrittain> kanzure: nah, I think plants stuff is so cool. I wouldn't deal with the legislative shit
17:48 < fenn> er, "kingdomist!"
17:48 < kanzure> huh?
17:48 < kanzure> you can do "ag" stuff without working for monsanto
17:49 < fenn> yeah but nobody is doing it
17:49 < kanzure> because people like bbrittain don't make the connection
17:49 < fenn> every few years you hear about some "golden banana" thing
17:49 < fenn> but that's it
17:49 < bbrittain> I talked with some people who were doing a banana thing a couple of weeks ago :P
17:49 < fenn> .wik golden rice
17:49 < yoleaux> "Golden rice is a variety of Oryza sativa rice produced through genetic engineering to biosynthesize beta-carotene, a precursor of vitamin A, in the edible parts of rice. The research was conducted with the goal of producing a fortified food to be grown and consumed in areas with a shortage of dietary vitamin A, a deficiency which is  …" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_rice
17:50 < fenn> same thing but in plantains for south america
17:50 < bbrittain> kanzure: I never desire to work in a field where I need a whole legal team just to convince people my thing isn't illegal
17:50 < kanzure> maybe i just expect too much from people
17:50 < kanzure> i expect you to know the difference between a general hatred of agriculture engineering and a hatred of monsanto
17:51 < kanzure> to be fair, nobody else seems to care about this sort of difference
17:51 < bbrittain> wait. I never said anything about monsanto. I just said that I wouldn't be able to deal with the intense legal stuff associated with ag engineering
17:51 < yashgaroth> compared to other types of genetic engineering?
17:51 < kanzure> yeah, there's very little legal stuff with agriculture-related engineering
17:52 < bbrittain> releasing into wild?
17:52 < bbrittain> like.. wat.
17:52 < kanzure> what does that have to do with any of it
17:52 < kanzure> sigh
17:52 < fenn> prokaryotes kept in a lab beaker are subject to much less regulation
17:52 < bbrittain> I mean, what's the point unless you can do something with it?
17:52 < bbrittain> besides.. coolness
17:52 < kanzure> bioreactors do very interesting things
17:52 < fenn> .wik bryotechnology
17:52 < yoleaux> fenn: Sorry, I couldn't find article.
17:52 < fenn> .g bryotechnology
17:52 < yoleaux> http://www.greenovation.com/bryotechnology.html
17:53 < kanzure> there must be a colossal amount of fear-of-legal-persecution holding everyone off from even thinking straight
17:54 < bbrittain> also, I am of the opinion that plant engineering for the most part "just isn't there yet". I'd rather work in better understood systems hypothetically
17:54 < fenn> hm this is the picture i was hoping would be on that page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bioreaktor_quer2.jpg
17:55 < kanzure> tiny tiny
17:55 < kragen> fenn: I wonder if golden rice might cause fatalities from lung cancer
17:55 < bbrittain> kragen--
17:55 < fenn> kragen: lung cancer?
17:55 < kanzure> i was expecting http://images.dailytech.com/nimage/16312_large_Algae_Bioreactors.jpg
17:56 < fenn>  In a dozen case-control and cohort studies, high intake of fruits and vegetables containing carotenoids has been associated with a reduced risk of lung cancer.
17:57 < fenn> maybe you're thinking vitamin E
17:58 < kragen> hmm, apparently beta-carotene is considered safer than other forms of vitamin A (some of which cause birth defects)
17:58 < fenn> there are a lot of stupid drugs based on vitamin A that aren't vitamin A
17:59 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotretinoin#Adverse_effects
18:00 < kragen> yeah, I think I may have been thinking of vitamin E
18:01 < kragen> coincidentally I happen to be talking to someone on another channel for whom one of those stupid drugs changed her life for the better (acne)
18:03 < kanzure> hplusroadmpa rule 45: no pandering to legal constraints
18:03 < fenn> so who wants to do a group buy of some uranium and PCP
18:04 < kanzure> how much?
18:04 < fenn> enough to get totally wasted
18:04 < kanzure> i meant price but ok
18:04 < fenn> -_-
18:05 < bbrittain> don't need. can procure both from roommates
18:05 < kanzure> (ginkgo must be pivoting)
18:06 < bbrittain> but actually
18:06 < fenn> i can't wait until synbio produces its first recreational substance
18:06 < fenn> i mean besides vaginal peach flavor
18:06 < kanzure> bbrittain: what software things are they having you work on?
18:07 < bbrittain> mostly infrastructural stuff. some robot automation stuff as of late, which has been kinda different
18:08 < fenn> can you imagine what synthesizing cocaine or heroin from a bubbling vat of sugar water would do to the global economy
18:08 < bbrittain> it's not the most exciting CS work, but I get to learn other cool things at work
18:09 < kanzure> fenn: no, tell me?
18:09 < kanzure> how much is spent on cocaine anyway
18:09 < bbrittain> and nah, thats a byproduct of living with MIT grad students. :P
18:09 < bbrittain> we don't do anything illegal. promise.
18:09 < bbrittain> seriously.
18:09 < fenn> well, colombia and afghanistan would suddenly have zero economic output...
18:09 < kanzure> oh is that their entire economy?
18:09 < bbrittain> it would tank it so hard
18:09 < bbrittain> you could tank drug cartels
18:10 < fenn> established hierarchies in detroit, LA, florida would totally crumble
18:10 < kanzure> you would have to be more efficient than drug cartels first
18:10 < kanzure> and have better distribution or something
18:10 < fenn> that's the point though, anyone who gets a sample of magic yeast can grow their own
18:10 < kanzure> yes but what's the yield, costs, etc.
18:10 < kanzure> if it is higher than drug cartels then it may not tank anything 
18:10 < fenn> no distribution channels needed, except for readily available supermarket stuff
18:11 < kanzure> what sort of yield or filtration are you thinking about? coffee filters?
18:11 < fenn> drug cartels have to build submarines and buy guns and hire people to shoot people etc etc
18:11 < bbrittain> in fact, it may be ethical to work on this...
18:11 < bbrittain> http://www.nature.com/nchembio/journal/v10/n10/full/nchembio.1613.html
18:11 < bbrittain> paperbot: http://www.nature.com/nchembio/journal/v10/n10/full/nchembio.1613.html
18:11 < bbrittain> .title
18:11 < yoleaux> A microbial biomanufacturing platform for natural and semisynthetic opioids : Nature Chemical Biology : Nature Publishing Group
18:11 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fnchembio.1613
18:11 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fnchembio.1613
18:14 < bbrittain> I can imagine that causing heroine to be far easier to acquire, more in the vein of marijuana
18:14 < bbrittain> how much of weed is controled by cartels? not as much I guess
18:15 < kragen> around here cocaine is far easier to acquire
18:15 < fenn> even marijuana is a pain to grow, you need lights, ventilation, fertilizer, growing media, trimming
18:15 < kragen> the last guy who tried to rob me and the guys who actually did rob me a year ago were all on cocaine
18:15 < fenn> vs a big bucket that consumes almost no electricity
18:16 < fenn> and a $5 bag of sugar and a $2 bottle of molasses
18:17 < fenn> people would be setting up fermenters everywhere
18:17 < fenn> buckets would be outlawed
18:18 < fenn> kragen: they robbed you because they needed money to pay for more cocaine
18:18 < fenn> or past purchases maybe
18:19 < kanzure> they were buying binary options
18:19 < fenn> they were trading cocaine futures
18:20 < kanzure> filthy scum
18:20 < bbrittain> kragen: where is here?
18:20 < fenn> kragen did you at least get a receipt for your wallet so you could collect on the investment later? :P
18:26 < fenn> bbrittain: wow so they actually did it...
18:27 < fenn> .wik thebaine
18:27 < yoleaux> "Thebaine (paramorphine), also known as codeine methyl enol ether, is an opiate alkaloid, its name coming from the Greek Θῆβαι, Thēbai, an ancient city in Upper Egypt. A minor constituent of opium, thebaine is chemically similar to both morphine and codeine, but has stimulatory rather than depressant effects." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thebaine
18:28 < kanzure> computer security lectures https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=6.858+Fall+2014
18:29 < kanzure> (from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8750537 )
18:29 < fenn> i wonder if they chose the input thebaine because it was already a controlled substance
18:39 < bbrittain> probably :/ jerks
18:40 < bbrittain> I wanna dump it in a bag of glucose and have it make me heroine... you know... for science
18:41 < bbrittain> not bad 131mg of opioids per litre, every 4 days
18:41 < fenn> i don't particularly want the heroin, i just would prefer not living in a world controlled in large part by international crime syndicates
18:42 < bbrittain> nah, thats actually the entire reason I'm onboard
18:42 < bbrittain> I don't do heroin. pshaw.
18:42 < kanzure> "Also among the spoils in one of last week’s file dumps was a Sony Corp. CA 2 “root” certificate—-a digital certificate issued by Sony’s corporate certificate authority to Sony Pictures to be used in creating server certificates for Sony’s Information Systems Service (ISS) infrastructure.  This may have been used to create the Sony Pictures certificate that was used to sign a later version of the malware that took the ...
18:42 < kanzure> ... company’s computers offline.  There were also certificates for a JP Morgan Chase electronic corporate banking application, SSL certificates for sites including the Sony Pictures Store e-commerce site, and other certificates associated with intranet servers and other infrastructure from multiple telecommunications providers."
18:42 < bbrittain> 0_o
18:42 < fenn> i suppose you'd have to make naloxone along with it, just to be sure everyone has the antidote
18:43 < kanzure> "The Ars story confuses certificates and keys, for example in the second picture"
18:43 < kanzure> damn, no keys
18:43 < bbrittain> yet
18:44 < fenn> "telecommunications providers" who will remain nameless, even though they are potentially the most IMPORTANT PART OF THE FUCKING ARTICLE
18:44 < kanzure> batman should have been distributing cocaine yeast instead of wasting time patrolling streets
18:44 < fenn> you mean bruce wayne
18:44 < kanzure> that's not what he calls himself
18:45 < kanzure> interlude https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMXjtvMAFlI
18:46 < kanzure> they don't make cyberpunk like they used to
18:47 < kanzure> "Batman Beyond is said to explore the darker side of many Batman projects, playing on cyberpunk and sci-fi themed elements such as issues and dilemmas of innovation and technological and scientific progress affecting society, and to the disturbing psychological elements of the character of Bruce Wayne."
18:47 < fenn> is this the one with the gay teenager who flies an airplane
18:47 < kanzure> you'll have to be more specific
18:47 < fenn> batman
18:47 < fenn> in the "future"
18:48 < kanzure> are you thinking of a television show, movie, webisode, or what?
18:49 < fenn> batman beyond
18:49 < fenn> nevermind
18:49 < kanzure> there were many flying vehicles in batman beyond
18:50 < fenn> http://batman.wikia.com/wiki/Batmobile_(Batman_Beyond)
18:51 < fenn> somehow sci-fi never seems to learn the kzinti lesson
18:51 < fenn> a passenger car that goes mach 3 in a weapon
18:51 < fenn> is*
18:52 < kanzure> and?
18:53 < fenn> so there's no reason to come up with a "freeze ray" or whatever when you can just drop buckets of concrete at mach 3
18:54 < kanzure> i don't think a freeze ray was a common item in batman's batbelt
18:54 < fenn> the villains
18:55 < kanzure> i think there was only one episode with a freeze gun
18:55 < kanzure> oh, two.
18:56 < kanzure> one was because of this weirdness https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_SUAtAu9DE
18:56 < fenn> wow i never knew the backstory:
18:56 < fenn> "Dr. Victor Fries (Pronounced "freeze") was an accomplished cryogenicist whose beloved wife Nora was stricken with a fatal degenerative disease. Fries placed her in suspended animation while searching for a way to cure her. But GothCorp's CEO Ferris Boyle stopped funding the research—and Nora's life—and pulled the plug, triggering an accident that transformed Fries' body into a cold-blooded
18:56 < fenn> form that must always be kept at subzero temperatures; at normal room temperature he will die."
18:56 < kanzure> pretty cool that they let this go on television for 8 year olds
18:58 < fenn> "bah"
18:58 < fenn> what did she do to convince him
19:02 < kanzure> no idea, but also a body probably means death is available
19:02 < kanzure> they just needed a test subject for other reasons
19:02 < kanzure> so they didn't care if he offed himself afterwards
19:02 < fenn> what do you expect from deathists
19:03 < fenn> http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140927222712/batman/images/thumb/6/60/Batman_%26_Robin_-_Mr._Freeze_4.jpg/403px-Batman_%26_Robin_-_Mr._Freeze_4.jpg
19:04 < fenn> http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111122031656/batman/images/a/a7/Mr_Freeze_%28Arnold_Schwarzenegger%29_2.gif
19:05 < kanzure> i approve of those shoes
19:09 < fenn> doctor fries is totally in the right here: http://batman.wikia.com/wiki/Mr._Freeze_(Arkham_series)#Patient_Interviews
19:12 < kanzure> that was a good game
19:12 < kanzure> i am waiting for them to hurry up and release https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsf78BS9VE0
19:12 < fenn> .title
19:12 < yoleaux> Official Batman: Arkham Knight Announce Trailer - "Father to Son" - YouTube
19:14 < fenn> a destructive lifestyle
19:15 < fenn> oh the lake hiding spot is a neat trick
19:20 < kanzure> big chunk of the plot of arkham city is about stealing a protein from some immortal jerkface
19:21 < fenn> Ra's al Ghul visits the same barber as Prince Vegeta
19:24 < kanzure> hmm they really split up the episodes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jYsxWapWzE&index=1&list=PLVVPjetneVfTK3Dln_URxYVeM77uU8P3u
19:24 < kanzure> 2 minute segments? who has time for this
19:25 < fenn> the wiki articles on batman: arkham city are way more interesting than the game, which consisted mostly of flying around and punching people over and over and over until they collapsed
19:30 < fenn> "Dr. Strange treated various people with psychological issues" summary of the entire series
19:32 < fenn> is it ever daytime in gotham city? no wonder 99% of the population has mental disorders
19:34 < kragen> bbrittain: Buenos Aires
19:34 < kragen> fenn: they gave me my wallet back when I asked them for it
19:35 < fenn> time spent retrieving all your ID cards is probably worth more than the money in the wallet
19:36 < kragen> they didn't take the ID card
19:36 < kragen> just the credit card
19:36 < fenn> right
19:36 < kragen> I'd been arguing with them for about twenty minutes before I gave them my wallet
19:42 < kanzure> in english?
19:47 < kragen> no
19:48 < fenn> "she took on the identity of Batgirl and was a crime-fighting partner of Batman for years. But that all ended when the Joker shot her through the spine."
19:48 < fenn> ouch
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20:12 < kanzure> http://siberiantimes.com/other/others/features/siberian-experts-say-they-can-solve-the-cause-of-mystery-sleeping-disorder/
20:13 < kanzure> "The shocking 'sleep epidemic' in a village and nearby Soviet ghost town in Kazakhstan maybe caused by a nearby disused uranium plant."
20:14 < kanzure> "Soviet town of Krasnogorsk" is that all they have going for them
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22:12 < kragen> .oed misandry
22:12 < kragen> .oed misandrist
22:13 < yoleaux> Oops. An error has occurred. :-(
22:13 < yoleaux> Oops. An error has occurred. :-(
22:20 < nmz787> do we have anyone in here that knows how to do things like modulate 30kilovolts with (unknown to me currently) amount of voltage (could be volts, could be kilovolts, could be +-30kv for all I know)?
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22:24 < kragen> I think people typically use vacuum tubes for that
22:25 < kragen> well, or motorized switches with gas arc-interruptors
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22:25 < kragen> but you probably mean modulating it faster than 0.1Hz
22:27 < nmz787> oh yeah, megahertz
22:27 < nmz787> or kilo at the least
22:27 < nmz787> it is how the deflector plates on SEM/FIB type instruments work
22:28 < nmz787> and I think similar voltages (but no modulation) for the lenses
22:28 < nmz787> (though they need to be programmable, so you can adjust the focus and alignment)
22:28 < kragen> one pleasant attribute of deflector plates is that they current is very, very small
22:29 < nmz787> oh, yeah
22:29 < kragen> which means the power is very, very low
22:29 < nmz787> shoulda mentioned that
22:29 < nmz787> hmm, well, i dunno about that completely
22:29 < nmz787> unless there are very innefficient circuits
22:29 < nmz787> as the power supply (supplies) is/are pretty big
22:30 < nmz787> like total of maybe a medium sized refrigerator and also a small (but not dorm sized) fridge
22:30 < nmz787> combined
22:30 < nmz787> some of those are low voltage though
22:30 < kragen> yeah, but that may be the power to the amplifier rather than to the plates
22:30 < nmz787> for general electronics
22:31 < kragen> a crucial thing there is that you need to keep your LC product down in the hundreds of nanoseconds range
22:31 < kragen> whatever the current you have driving the plates needs to not have much inductance in it
22:31 < nmz787> i was just thinking it would be interesting to look into using an optical drive sled (i.e. from cd/dvd drive) for FTIR
22:31 < nmz787> since you could jiggle the lens with the voice coil
22:32 < nmz787> well I know the thing has some thick ass cables coming off the side
22:32 < nmz787> like a good 1.5 to 2cm
22:33 < kragen> I think the inductance thing rules out the easiest approach to getting high voltage, which is a high-turns-ratio transformer or two
22:36 < nmz787> hmm
22:36 < nmz787> could it be spark-gap mediated?
22:37 < nmz787> that seems unlikely, it seems like it would be noisy enough for me to notice
22:37 < kragen> I think that if you start sparking you are going to lose all hope of fine control over your ion beam
22:37 < kragen> lots of harmonics which are going to ring all over the place
22:37 < nmz787> because of ringing?
22:37 < nmz787> yea
22:39 < kragen> maybe you could use a series of 100 of these: http://www.nxp.com/products/bipolar_transistors/general_purpose_bipolar_transistors/high_voltage_transistors/npn_high_voltage_transistors/
22:39 < kragen> between the plate and each rail
22:40 < nmz787> "The MuLan kicker will consist of 2 pairs of deflector plates mechanically in series, driven by 4 MOSFET modulators. Each modulator consists of two stacks of MOSFETs operating in push pull mode. The specifications for the kicker demand that the rise and fall times of the deflector plate voltage are not more than 45 ns. There is a requirement for an adjustable output voltage from 0 V to ±12.5 kV per deflector plate, a minimum pulse duration ...
22:40 < nmz787> ... of 200 ns, and adjustable repetition rate up to a maximum of 50 kHz, continuous"
22:40 < nmz787> that seems too slow
22:41 < kragen> 45ns and 200ns sounds like 4 or 5 MHz
22:41 < nmz787> hmm, in series, so the potential across any one would be below breakdown
22:41 < kragen> but the question is whether you could get that up to 30kV
22:41 < nmz787> would need a ton of power for that series
22:41 < nmz787> for switching
22:42 < nmz787> and you want low impedance on the gates so slew is high and you stay out of the switching state (which is inefficient relative to full on or off)
22:42 < kragen> well, see, this is where the super low current across the plates is helpful
22:43 < nmz787> hmm
22:43 < nmz787> in the sense of having to cool them?
22:43 < kragen> you just have to be able to charge up the plates (say 1pF) in a short time (say 500ns), so your total current requirement here is very limited
22:43 < nmz787> does the current through a MOSFET change the gate capacitance or something?
22:43 < kragen> it does, yes :(
22:44 < nmz787> oh, i meant the current driving the gates
22:44 < kragen> tubes are sounding better and better
22:44 < nmz787> not drain-to-source
22:44 < kragen> you might actually be able to use a piezoelectric transformer as a final step
22:44 < kragen> yeah, but there's also drain-to-gate and source-to-gate capacitance, which is going to be enormous compared to what's across the plates
22:44 < nmz787> and if the power dissipated really is low enough, I wonder how many you could stuff onto an ASIC
22:45 < nmz787> mm, so the gate driving may be the 'hard' part then?
22:45 < nmz787> for the mere fact of having to coordinate 100 gate signals and having 100 gate drivers
22:45 < kragen> well, I meant that the current flowing through the MOSFET has to charge the source-to-gate capacitance of the following MOSFET
22:46 < nmz787> ahh
22:46 < nmz787> so it will drag the overall bandwidth down
22:46 < nmz787> ?
22:46 < kragen> right, and push up the current requirements
22:46 < kragen> I probably should shut up because I don't know what I'm talking about
22:46 < kragen> I've never built anything like this at all
22:46 < nmz787> heh
22:47 < kragen> I do think there are vacuum tube designs out there that can do the kind of thing you're wanting with a lot less headache than trying to kludge some Rube Goldberg semiconductor device together
22:48 < kragen> and piezo transformers can in theory be very high voltage in small, solid-state spaces, and also they don't add inductive loading like a normal transformer, just a little capacitance
22:49 < kragen> but I don't know if you can buy a 30kV or even a 3kV piezo transformer
22:50 < kragen> semiconductors love to be low voltage (2-20V) and high current; vacuum tubes are very much the opposite, and indeed that's the problem here, that you want to drive deflector plates in a humongous vacuum tube
22:51 < kragen> high-frequency tubes typically have a fairly low bandwidth, much less than an octave
22:52 < nmz787> hmm
22:54 < kragen> (but maybe that's a function of the current)
22:55 < nmz787> (from a patent, so excuse the interspersed numbers) "By applying high voltage (50 to 120 kV) on the wafer 242, a high field region is created between the wafer 242 and the lens plate 232 that focuses the 32 beamlets 220 onto the wafer 242 into 25×25 nm pixels, which is a {fraction (1/60)} demagnification of the object aperture 602 array in the electron gun"
22:56 < nmz787> 32 beamlets, hmm
22:56 < nmz787> I wonder if those are comparable to lenslets
22:56 < kragen> charging 1pF to 30kV in 500ns requires 30mA
22:57 < kragen> so your 30kV power supply only needs to output 30mA, but that's still 900W
22:57 < kragen> if the 1pF number is in the ballpark anyway
22:59 < kragen> I mean it's not really 900W.  it's 900VA.  but the power supply doesn't know that until you discharge the plates.
23:00 < nmz787> http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1981-05.pdf
23:01 < nmz787> whats the diff between watts and VA?
23:01 < nmz787> because it has a freq component?
23:01 < kragen> well
23:01 < kragen> you're not *dissipating* power at 900W
23:01 < kragen> you're *storing energy* at 900W
23:01 < kragen> on the plates
23:02 < kragen> now if you just dump it to ground after that, you will in fact dissipate it
23:02 < kragen> but it's not unavoidable.  I mean you can set up a tank to recycle it a few dozen times.
23:03 < nmz787> "Power factor is always a number between zero and one because the watts drawn by a device are always less than or equal to the volt-amperes. Note that it is possible for a circuit to have a large voltage across it and to draw substantial current, but consume no energy (dissipate zero watts).
23:03 < nmz787> While this seems counterintuitive, it is true if the circuit is purely reactive (a pure capacitor or pure inductor). The circuit will do no work and produce no heat, so it is drawing (and dissipating) zero watts. Yet it can draw substantial current, resulting in substantial VA.
23:03 < nmz787> In this case, the power factor is zero. This is possible because the phase relationship between the voltage and current waveforms is such that the circuit is alternately absorbing real power and giving that real power back, so the net real power consumption is zero."
23:06 < kragen> these guys got by with only a few hundred volts on their steering electrodes: http://www.mll-muenchen.de/bl_rep/jb2008/p095096.pdf
23:07 < nmz787> "w. The placement accuracy goal for individual pixels was set at ±0.1 /nm, which implies a deflection accuracy of 0. 1 ¿urn in 5000 /urn or roughly 1 6 bits. Since it was not deemed possible to design deflection cir cuitry that could meet both the 300-MHz bit rate and the 16-bit accuracy requirements simultaneously, the modified raster-scan scheme was adopted."
23:07 < nmz787> hmm, maybe the accelerating voltage is the only 30kv feed, I know there are a few thick cables on it
23:10 < kragen> yeah, it's common to have 10kV to 30kV power on the electron gun
23:10 < kragen> and that would explain why the cables are thick
23:10 < kragen> you don't need thick cables to carry 30mA, even at 30kV
23:11 < kragen> (electron gun or ion gun, either way)
23:12 < nmz787> speaking of an interferometer on a wafer system "and can move 5 mm and settle to less than 0.1 /um from its destination in only 250 milliseconds. In normal operation it is driven to a destination with an accuracy of 0.016 /um, or 160 angstroms! Resolution is 0.008 /um or 80 angstroms."
23:13 < kragen> the HP journal says the capacitance between their octopole plates "capacitance between the plates is of key importance, and is normally less than 10 pF"
23:15 < nmz787> "The final waveforms generated by the quadrupole electronics are linear within better than 0.1% over the four- volt deflection range sufficient for a 64X64-um block scan. The raster-scan signals are compatible with the 3-kHz-to-300-MHz 0.5-/um-step data rate."
23:15 < nmz787> (last few quotes have been from the HP article)
23:15 < kragen> "For a 5-mm-square deflection field, the maximum
23:15 < kragen> required deflection voltage is about 80V and maximum
23:15 < kragen> required stigmation voltage is about IV"
23:16 < kragen> that's the octopole
23:16 < kragen> so, well, that makes your life much easier.  you can just throw an op-amp or two in there and be done
23:17 < nmz787> unless it's actually 10,000 to 10,080 V
23:17 < kragen> but it's not
23:18 < nmz787> hmm, I guess I don't know the difference between quad and octopole
23:18 < kragen> I don't understand why they used both of them
23:18 < nmz787> yeah I thought I was mixing articles
23:18 < nmz787> well it does say 'range' at least for the last qoute i posted
23:19 < nmz787> .wik cascode
23:19 < yoleaux> "The cascode is a two-stage amplifier composed of a transconductance amplifier followed by a current buffer." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascode
23:20 < kragen> a four-volt range is presumably -2V to +2V
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23:27 < nmz787> hmm, capacitive distance sensing using 1MHz signal
23:29 < nmz787> .wik sawr
23:29 < yoleaux> "Gobernador Gregores Airport (IATA: GGS, ICAO: SAWR), is an airport in Gobernador Gregores, Argentina." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gobernador_Gregores_Airport
23:29 < nmz787> .wik surface acoustic wave resonator
23:29 < yoleaux> "A surface acoustic wave (SAW) is an acoustic wave traveling along the surface of a material exhibiting elasticity, with an amplitude that typically decays exponentially with depth into the substrate." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_acoustic_wave
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23:34 < nmz787> "The wide-angle precision deflector is an octopole, or eight-fold deflector. It is situated in the field-free region between the lens and the target and is a means of obtaining a precisely controlled field distribution. Used in its normal mode, the octopole produces a field that is very close to being uniform. The deflector has low aberrations and can be tailored to minimize one or more defects. In this design the major advantages are that ...
23:34 < nmz787> ... it is a reasonably sensitive deflector which has low aberrations, provides a common center of deflection for both X and Y directions, and can be made precisely. Present deflectors are made with an accuracy of better than 0.01 mm throughout. The deflec tor is 10.16 cm long and has a 15.87-mm internal diameter. All critical surfaces are coated with gold to eliminate charging effects."
23:36 < kragen> I don't know what "charging effects" means there
23:37 < nmz787> basically acting like a capacitor
23:37 < nmz787> rather than conducting to ground
23:38 < nmz787> plastics and glass do it
23:38 < nmz787> too
23:38 < nmz787> or organics, biologics
23:38 < nmz787> they often get coated in carbon or gold before imaging for example
23:39 < nmz787> so they use the octopole for general positioning, then use the quadrupole for rastering 64 micron square blocks at a much higher data rate
23:40 < nmz787> the octopole get's things close, with high linearity
23:41 < nmz787> then the quadrupole's effect slips right onto that I guess
23:41 < nmz787> and since they don't use much of it's range, it is also pretty linear (must be I guess)
23:41 < kragen> I am pretty sure that coating a piece of metal with gold won't change its capacitance
23:41 < kragen> or are we talking about coating an otherwise non-conductive surface with gold?
23:42 < kragen> what you're saying makes a lot of sense with the two-stage design
23:42 < kragen> the quadrupole's range is 20 times smaller, so the energy needed to charge it is 400 times smaller
23:43 < kragen> I mean, it would be if it had the same capacitance; it might be a little worse or probably better
23:45 < nmz787> "In the part of the data conversion known as CRUNCH
23:45 < nmz787> "
23:45 < nmz787> lol
23:46 < nmz787> kragen: it is probably to ensure that weld/braze seems are not insulated by some metal oxide in the joint
23:46 < nmz787> seams*
23:46 < kragen> aha!
23:46 < nmz787> is ceramification a word?
23:47 < nmz787> 'screw being mummified, i want to be ceramified!'
23:48 < kragen> .wik plastination
23:48 < yoleaux> "Plastination is a technique or process used in anatomy to preserve bodies or body parts, first developed by Gunther von Hagens in 1977. The water and fat are replaced by certain plastics, yielding specimens that can be touched, do not smell or decay, and even retain most properties of the original sample." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastination
23:49 < nmz787> I know a guy that makes supercritical CO2 extractors, I could be critical-point dried. nmz787-jerky
23:49 < nmz787> I wonder if I could be rehydrated later 'when science has a cure'
23:49 < nmz787> kanzure ^
23:50 < nmz787> I guess CO2 may extract my infoz, along with my waters
23:50 < kragen> that's a fascinating idea.  supercritical drying of meat.
23:50 < kragen> it looks like it would: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8202436
23:51 < kragen> it makes sense that supercritical CO₂ can dissolve lipids
23:51 < nmz787> hmm, I guess freeze-drying uses sublimatioj
23:51 < nmz787> sublimation
23:51 < nmz787> ugh, I am tired
23:52 < nmz787> yeah, he uses it for recycling used motor oil, or something like that
23:52 < kragen> I wonder if I can use supercritical CO₂ to remove grease stains from my laundry.  it could be like the modern carbon tet
23:52 < nmz787> yea
23:52 < kragen> really? that's interesting! to separate it from particles in it or something?
23:52 < nmz787> there is also subcritical CO2
23:52 < nmz787> which is essentially just holding something up to the valve which has supercritical fluid on the other side
23:54 < kragen> well, you don't need to have supercritical fluid involved at all, do you?  unless you're concerned about surface tension
23:54 < nmz787> "The water in biological tissue is replaced with a suitable inert fluid whose critical temperature for a realizable pressure is just above ambient. The choice of fluids is severely limited and CO2 is universally used today, despite early work with Freon 13 and nitrous oxide."
23:54 < nmz787> http://www.emsdiasum.com/microscopy/technical/datasheet/critical_drying.aspx
23:55 < nmz787> well CO2 as a gas isn't very permeating I guess
23:55 < nmz787> which is why surface tension decreasing helps
23:55 < kragen> what do you mean?
23:55 < nmz787> idk if liquid CO2 has much solvency
23:55 < kragen> what's "solvency"?
23:55 < nmz787> well gas just doesn't 'soak' as much other stuff, like if you were thinking in terms of solvent/solute
23:56 < nmz787> solvency is a number associated with how much some solvent can dissvolve something
23:56 < nmz787> so like you can compare DNA with water, 70% alcohol, 90% alcohol
23:56 < nmz787> alcohol with salt
23:56 < nmz787> or, umm
23:57 < nmz787> salt water and more salt crystals
23:57 < kragen> you mean solubility?
23:57 < nmz787> with pure water the bulk liquid has very good solvency for salt crystals
23:57 < nmz787> but when that liquid is highly saline, the liquid doesn't have good solvency for salt crystals
23:57 < nmz787> since it's already all loaded up ionically
23:58 < nmz787> but you could imagine some super-salt that would kick NaCl to the door, for example, precipitating it out back to crystals
23:58 < kragen> right, but polar solvation is a different process than miscibility of nonpolar liquids
23:58 < nmz787> so in that line of thinking, gas sucks at solvency
23:59 < nmz787> one reason is that it's just not very dense
23:59 < nmz787> so not as much molecule to molecule interaction... but also that those molecules have high kinetic energy
23:59 < nmz787> and other stuff that I don't know about
23:59 < nmz787> not really too much different, just different charge distributions