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06:06 < superkuh> paperbot: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/346/6216/1495.full.pdf
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07:18 < kanzure> bleep
07:24 < kanzure> "Spontaneous generation and colony formation in the Amoeba world"
07:24 < JayDugger> Kanzure, what's Freitas up to these days?
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07:26 < kanzure> not sure, i think "more of the same"
07:26 < kanzure> .title http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/cplx.10095/abstract
07:26 < yoleaux> Self-organizing genetic codes and the emergence of digital life - Pargellis - 2003 - Complexity - Wiley Online Library
07:26 < kanzure> "The emergence of self-replicating programs from an initially disordered “prebiotic” phase consisting of randomly generated opcodes (virtual machine instructions) is a challenging problem. The computer world, Amoeba, has many virtual CPUs acting upon sequences of randomly generated codons (opcode templates). An assignment matrix degenerately maps these codons to a genetic basis set of opcodes, analogous to the translation of ...
07:26 < kanzure> ... nucleotides to amino acids. Amoeba self-organizes by increasing assignment probabilities for those codon-opcode pairs in successfully generated children. This halves the effective size of the opcode basis set, doubling the rate of emergence over the control case (random assignments)."
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07:30 < kanzure> weird search result https://gowers.wordpress.com/2009/11/07/polymath-and-the-origin-of-life/
07:32 < kanzure> here is a description of amoeba/pargellis' simulator http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~toby/writing/PCW/life.htm
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07:33 < kanzure> "Pargellis found that on average, a self-replicating sequence of instructions would spontaneously arise after about 400 generations. Initially, such 'self-reps' were often unnecessarily complex, and contained portions of code which performed no useful task, or were skipped over."
07:37 < kanzure> anp@lucent.com
07:41 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/ai/The%20evolution%20of%20self-replicating%20computer%20organisms%20-%20A.%20N.%20Pargellis.pdf
07:42 < kanzure> that is a much better paper than uwe's
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07:47 < kanzure> fenn: try that one
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07:49 < kanzure> eudoxia: try http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/ai/The%20evolution%20of%20self-replicating%20computer%20organisms%20-%20A.%20N.%20Pargellis.pdf
07:49 < eudoxia> i can open it
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08:50 < kanzure> "Those disembodied lungs are amazing. And incredibly creepy. The business plan -- patching up donor lungs not approved for transplant (which is most of them) and keeping them alive long enough to find a patient they can save... to the tune of perhaps 2,000 lungs and lives per year. That's pretty amazing. Approved in Canada and awaiting FDA approval as well?"
08:50 < kanzure> http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/martine-rothblatt-she-founded-siriusxm-a-religion-and-a-biotech-for-starters/2014/12/11/5a8a4866-71ab-11e4-ad12-3734c461eab6_story.html
08:50 < kanzure> "On a Virginia farm, she’s also raising genetically altered pigs, in the hope that someday their lungs (and other organs) will be modified for use in human transplant, creating a nearly inexhaustible supply of organ donors."
08:51 < kanzure> "The process is legal in Canada, and Rothblatt’s company is among a few trying to win FDA approval. It has worked on more than 40 lungs since May, practicing and documenting results. Once the process is approved, the company will start putting the lungs in patients on a trial basis."
08:52 < kanzure> "Lung Bioengineering, Inc."
08:52 < kanzure> http://www.revivicor.com/index.html
08:53 < kanzure> "Revivicor Inc. is a regenerative medicine company focused on applying leading-edge animal biotechnology platforms to provide a superior quality, high-volume, human-compatible, alternative tissue source for treatment of human degenerative disease. The Virginia-based company was formed in 2003 as a spin-out from the UK company PPL Therapeutics, which produced the first cloned animal: Dolly the Sheep. Revivicor has subsequently built on ...
08:53 < kanzure> ... this technology, cloning the first genetically-engineered (GE) pigs, and now produces pig islets, organs, and medical devices aimed at human clinical applications."
08:53 < kanzure> "At $20,000 net sales per transplant, this is a projected $60 billion market. Recently published results demonstrated that pancreatic islet cells from Revivicor pigs, when transplanted into diabetic monkeys, cured diabetes for over 1 year with complete normalization of blood glucose levels (van der Windt et al., 2009). The pigs used in these studies were engineered such that a human gene (“CD46”) was added, and a key pig gene ...
08:53 < kanzure> ... (alpha-Gal) was deleted, as a means to overcome transplant rejection issues. It is anticipated that insulin-producing islet cells from Revivicor’s cloned pigs could be in human clinical trials within 3 years time."
08:53 < kanzure> haha they have an infographic http://www.revivicor.com/images/RevivicorTechPoster-04-2010.jpg
08:55 < kanzure> "James Zhan, left, and specialist Sam Popa work on a lung being kept alive and restored in an incubator at United Therapeutics, which is pioneering new methods for lung transplant."
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09:11 < archels> so is "Virtually Human" worth the read?
09:13 < kanzure> no idea
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09:42 < kanzure> poppingtonic: see http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/ai/The%20evolution%20of%20self-replicating%20computer%20organisms%20-%20A.%20N.%20Pargellis.pdf
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10:16 < kanzure> global distribution of chlorophyll http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/Seawifs_global_biosphere.jpg
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10:25  * fenn bakes a ham
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10:26 < nmz787_i1> I wonder why just above and below the equator there is a drop in chlorophyll
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10:33 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_interstellar_and_circumstellar_molecules
10:37 < kanzure> "A particularly large and rich region for detecting interstellar molecules is Sagittarius B2 (Sgr B2). This giant molecular cloud lies near the center of the Milky Way galaxy and is a frequent target for new searches. About half of the molecules listed below were first found near Sgr B2, and nearly every other molecule has since been detected in this feature.[25] "
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10:58 < archels> kanzure: well, A Taxonomy and Metaphysics of Mind-Uploading isn't, at any rate
10:58 < kanzure> heh
10:59 < kanzure> thanks for checking, but no surprise there (martine was the one that wanted "snippets of text from your written content, to be used to reconstruct the entirety of your set of opinions and upload yer mindz")
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11:04 < archels> that'll totally work
11:04 < archels> this book was from Keith Wiley, by the way, not Rothblatt
11:05 < kanzure> oh, hm
11:05 < archels> apparently he blogged for Humanity+ before, and this kinda rolled out of that
11:05 < archels> he actually self-describes it as an extended blogpost--which is exactly how it reads
11:14 < fenn> "so, i feel guilty for not writing in this book more frequently. damn you readers for silently guilt-tripping me!"
11:16 < kanzure> "free wow gold" - j. random commenter
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11:35 < delinquentme> free??
11:35 < delinquentme> O_o;
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11:58 < kanzure> https://michaelfeathers.silvrback.com/detecting-refactoring-diligence
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12:05 < fenn> stop. ham time
12:06 < delinquentme> honey baked
12:07 < fenn> yep
12:19 < kanzure> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e1/Georgia_Aquarium_-_Ocean_Voyager_Tunnel_Jan_2006.jpg
12:19 < kanzure> i like the kid that's more interested in the floor
12:20 < nmz787_i> huh, in vegas the floor was also glass
12:27 < fenn> there's some kind of silly irony in rothblatt forsaking judaism for transgenic pigs
12:28 < fenn> let not the meat of the bacon tempt thee
12:31 < fenn> "Terasem is a collective consciousness dedicated to diversity, unity and joyful immortality."
12:31 < fenn> why is it people always feel the need to append "unity" to every statement of goals involving "diversity"
12:32 < fenn> make up your mind
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12:35 < fenn> "When the Apartheid of Republic of South Africa celebrated 20 years of independence on 31 May 1981, the theme of the celebrations was "unity in diversity" as a cynical attempt to explain away the inequalities in South African life."
12:37 < kanzure> aquarium livefeed http://aqua.org/explore/baltimore/exhibits-experiences/blacktip-reef
12:40 < fenn> is that your desktop background
12:54 < nmz787_i> http://trends.medicalexpo.com/products/vetigel-stops-arterial-bleeding-in-15-seconds/
12:55 < nmz787_i> "The gel is not yet for sale. If you're a veterinarian interested in a sample of VETIGEL for clinical evaluation, please contact us here."
12:55 < nmz787_i> hrmm
12:55 < nmz787_i> I am tempted to email 'my goats keep getting caught on my adjoining neighbors barbed-wire fence, please VETIGEL, I need your help'
12:58 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecosphere_(aquarium)
12:58 < kanzure> "The main conceptual interest of these objects lies in the fact that they are materially closed ecological systems which are self-sustaining over a period of years. At room temperature, and with only low inputs of light, the algae produce oxygen which supports the shrimp and bacteria. Bacteria break down the shrimps' wastes. The breakdown products provide nutrients to the algae and bacteria upon which the shrimp feed. The manufacturer ...
12:58 < kanzure> ... states that shrimp live in the EcoSphere for an average of 2 to 3 years, and are known to live over 10 years."
12:58 < kanzure> "A magnetic scrubber is enclosed in each EcoSphere. By passing another magnet over the outside of the glass, the owner can manipulate the scrubber to clean the inside of the EcoSphere."
12:59 < fenn> nmz787_i: sterile kaolin powder has been used for a long time, optionally with antibacterial silver. you can get it in little expensive sealed packets
12:59 < fenn> QuikClot also makes a gauze coated with powder
13:01 < fenn> WoundSeal ingredients: Hydrophilic Polymer , Potassium Ferrate
13:01 < fenn> i wonder how that works
13:02 < fenn> .title http://first-aid-product.com/industrial/blood-stopper.htm
13:02 < kanzure> gaah "The ecosphere was reviewed by Carl Sagan in a 1986 Parade magazine article entitled "The World That Came in the Mail."[11] The article is reprinted as a chapter in Sagan's last book, Billions and Billions."
13:02 < yoleaux> Blood Stoppers | QuickClot, KytoStat, & WoundSeal (formerly known as QR Powder) Plus Spray bandages and Blood Clotting Spray | Stop Bleeding Instantly | First-Aid-Product.com
13:03 < kanzure> everything about that was fine until the name of the book
13:03 < fenn> bbbillions and bbbillions of ssshrimppp
13:03 < kanzure> "breathless billions"
13:05 < delinquentme> http://130.211.172.37/
13:05 < delinquentme> cool
13:05 < kanzure> first time using graphite?
13:06 < delinquentme> yeah
13:06 < delinquentme> and troubleshooting some bad configs for https://github.com/saltstack-formulas/graphite-formula
13:07 < kanzure> "use more pillars"
13:12  * nmz787_i rotated right-most display from portrait to landscape to have that aquarium showing
13:14 < kanzure> http://www.montereybayaquarium.org/animals-and-experiences/live-web-cams/open-sea-cam
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13:21 < fenn> i'm still trying to figure out how to stream it through mplayer
13:22 < kanzure> you missed the schoolfish tornado
13:22 < fenn> it'll be back
13:22 < nmz787_i> there it is again
13:22 < nmz787_i> I don't think this is actually the open-sea
13:23 < nmz787_i> I see that shark had a shadow near the bottom
13:23 < nmz787_i> though their one tank was quite huge as I remember it
13:23 < fenn> it's their "open sea" aquarium exhibit which has lots of open sea critters
13:24 < kanzure> this aquarium looks much larger than that baltimore feed
13:24 < fenn> it's huge
13:24 < nmz787_i> easily 3 stories tall
13:25 < fenn> feeding time: 11 am
13:25 < fenn> so that's probably leftovers
13:31 < fenn> is there something like ustream that doesn't suck
13:32 < kanzure> livestream?
13:34 < fenn> the javascript search box isn't looking promising
13:34 < kanzure> interesting that "ecosphere" is novel or something... i thought many people have made closed ecosystems of all kinds?
13:35 < kanzure> a computer simulation of a closed ecosystem has the interesting property of injecting arbitrary resources
13:36 < kanzure> *interesting ability for
13:36 < kanzure> but you would need to account for differential benefit of different types of resources.. those string-based replication programs aren't going to build a "shell" because there's no three dimensional space or materials of any kind that provide any selective advantage.
13:38 < archels> wasn't there a 2D grid of cells in one of those papers?
13:38 < kanzure> i don't think they were cells
13:38 < archels> and critters could leech off their neighbours
13:38 < kanzure> that was like "neighbor" in the sense of memory mapping
13:38 < archels> admittedly I only skimmed it
13:39 < fenn> there are a lot of 2d cellular automata but not so many linear ones
13:39 < fenn> i guess people get bored looking at crusty memory maps
13:41 < kanzure> sea turtle keeps swimming by that camera not sure why
13:41 < nmz787_i> TURTLE
13:41 < kanzure> memory maps don't seem like the right sort of environment
13:42 < kanzure> other resources besides computational time and memory must be available and must provide benefit
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13:43 < kanzure> welcome back narwh4l
13:43 < narwh4l> :)
13:45 < kanzure> nmz787: jupiter's spot is probably just a giant schoolfish tornado
13:47 < narwh4l> Where is this aquarium I was told about?
13:47 < kanzure> http://aqua.org/explore/baltimore/exhibits-experiences/blacktip-reef
13:48 < kanzure> http://www.montereybayaquarium.org/animals-and-experiences/live-web-cams/open-sea-cam
13:48 < narwh4l> :D
13:48 < fenn> how can this thing possibly be using 100% cpu at only 240p
13:48 < narwh4l> it's mining dogecoin
13:48 < kanzure> wow
13:49 < fenn> ok 90%
13:49 < fenn> but still
13:49 < kanzure> enable frameskipping?
13:49 < fenn> i can't do that because it's some javascript web bullshit
13:50 < fenn> if i were using a reasonable video player i wouldn't be having a problem
13:50 < kanzure> cclive?
13:51 < narwh4l> oh hey there turtle
13:51 < kanzure> turtle butt
13:51 < narwh4l> turtle camwhore
13:52 < kanzure> maybe there was an rna replicator ecosystem prior to cells
13:53 < kanzure> er, food web
14:00 < poppingtonic> that was huge
14:00 < fenn> it's called the "RNA world hypothesis"
14:01 < kanzure> rna world hypothesis does *not* specify an ecosystem
14:02 < fenn> are you sure
14:04 < kanzure> "It may, therefore, have played a major step in the evolution of cellular life.[7] The RNA world would have eventually been replaced by the DNA, RNA and protein world of today, likely through an intermediate stage of ribonucleoprotein enzymes such as the ribosome and ribozymes, since proteins large enough to self-fold and have useful activities would only have come about after RNA was available to catalyze peptide ligation or amino acid ...
14:04 < kanzure> ... polymerization.[8] DNA is thought to have taken over the role of data storage due to its increased stability, while proteins, through a greater variety of monomers (amino acids), replaced RNA's role in specialized biocatalysis."
14:04 < poppingtonic> rna doesn't require *that* much energy...
14:04 < kanzure> i don't know if any of that counts as an ecosystem
14:04 < kanzure> i agree that rna doesn't require lots of energy, but you don't just go rna self-replicators -> cellular membranes
14:05 < fenn> so if RNA #1 eats RNA #2 it doesn't count as a "food web"?
14:07 < delinquentme> hey python comes default installed on macs right?
14:07 < kanzure> cannibalism sort of counts, but i am not sure you can bootstrap cells from only cannibalism
14:07 < fenn> cells has nothing to do with this particular question
14:08 < fenn> i guess it's some terrible philosophical "identity" problem
14:08 < poppingtonic> what would an ecology of rna molecules do? If there's free energy (maybe sunlight or geothermal energy), and a heat bath, and RNA (but no DNA), what's missing from the picture?
14:08 < poppingtonic> delinquentme: i think it's ruby.
14:08 < fenn> scarce resources; RNA molecules that replicate the most win because they're more likely to survive $calamity
14:08 < kanzure> in the case of computer simulations, who knows-- usually the ecosystem collapses and dies off
14:09 < kanzure> without the "emergence" of other forms of life
14:11 < poppingtonic> I've seen guns and spaceships designed using GoL elements in Golly.
14:11 < fenn> there are other ways to contain molecules besides lipid membranes
14:11 < poppingtonic> Gosper gliders and other elements.
14:12 < poppingtonic> they can get pretty complex, but the fundamental ops are simple automata.
14:12 < fenn> you could make a net of carbohydrates and stuff your food in there, or hide in a crevice on an inorganic surface
14:12 < fenn> or both
14:12 < fenn> poppingtonic: most of those were created (engineered) by humans
14:12 < fenn> kinda defeats the purpose
14:12 < kanzure> none of those methods seem to be usable in a simulation of string-based code-based lifeforms
14:13 < kanzure> "where" would the surface go
14:13 < poppingtonic> fair enough.
14:13 < fenn> RNA is a string-based lifeform :P
14:13 < kanzure> yes but there's a spatial dimension as well
14:13 < kanzure> it doesn't have magical memory access to other rna molecules
14:14 < fenn> is it possible for a "code" life form to concentrate resources?
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14:14 < kanzure> instead it has magical physical access to other rna molecules, heh
14:14 < kanzure> maybe, but there would have to be an idea for how that would look
14:14 < kanzure> probably something like "different code has different resource binding affinities"
14:14 < kanzure> and then... the binding has to look like something...
14:15 < fenn> what if you had something like proof of work
14:15 < kanzure> ?
14:15 < fenn> or did i just send you into a feverish schizophrenic fit where you'll ramble about the simulation argument and the universe being a cryptocurrency miner
14:16 < kanzure> no you're thinking of chaitin
14:16 < fenn> uh. so the only scarce resources in a code simulation are: cpu cycles, randomness, memory
14:17 < kanzure> your simulation can introduce other scarce resources that bundle those together
14:17 < fenn> most of these alife toys feed the system randomness at some low level or it will be terribly boring
14:17 < kanzure> and it's not really "cpu cycles" but rather "simulation cycles" or something
14:17 < kanzure> *simulation ticks
14:18 < fenn> right so proof of work is a way of packaging up cpu cycles in a bit string
14:18 < fenn> but in order for it to mean anything, the selection function has to favor it somehow
14:18 < kanzure> there's certainly a way to favor valid proof of work
14:19 < fenn> yeah you just only evaluate code that has a valid proof of work attached to it
14:20 < fenn> once a code string figures out how to make a proof of work string, it counts as self replicating
14:20 < kanzure> huh?
14:21 < kanzure> so the way that these simulations worked was randomly seeding the memory with random opcodes, then executing code
14:21 < fenn> like a transcription factor; the simulation reads strings of bits and only starts executing if the bit string hashes to 0x00whatever
14:21 < kanzure> and eventually self-replicating programs were found in this mess
14:21 < kanzure> i don't think you need to start with proof-of-work-favoring?
14:22 < fenn> i dont see how you would ever develop an ecosystem/food web when everything is equally distributed
14:23 < kanzure> go on?
14:23 < fenn> self replicators sure, but they wouldn't *do* anything
14:23 < kanzure> apparently they even infect each other, create copies, have different strategies
14:24 < poppingtonic> does rna process information at all?
14:24 < kanzure> i was working on transcriptional logic gates a long time ago, hehe
14:25 < fenn> poppingtonic: it copies strings of RNA...
14:25 < kanzure> arguably, rna stores information
14:25 < kanzure> no, indisputably
14:25 < fenn> no, arguably!
14:25  * fenn argues
14:25 < kanzure> perhaps there could be a scarcity of bits
14:26 < kanzure> and bytes
14:26 < kanzure> conservation of bits
14:26 < fenn> there's already a limit on the simulation memory size
14:26 < fenn> maybe you mean conservation of entropy
14:27 < kanzure> possibly, yes
14:27 < fenn> wolfram showed that weird stuff happens even in severely entropy constrained systems, i.e. rule 34
14:28 < kanzure> ynotds has spent like a thousand hours looking at rule 34 simulations
14:29 < kanzure> http://www.thewildca.com/200000r/snake0401_200000r.gif
14:29 < kanzure> http://ynotds.com/ under "Cellular Automata Project news"
14:29 < poppingtonic> and that other dude showed that UTMs can be made of extremely simple components.
14:30 < kragen> poppingtonic: ?
14:31 < kragen> are we talking about automata theory or mechanical engineering here?
14:31 < poppingtonic> Both.
14:33 < fenn> ok that's not an animated gif
14:34 < kanzure> that may just be how golly dumps images
14:35 < poppingtonic> you should download golly and run a few guns/spaceships. If you haven't already.
14:36 < kanzure> to be honest i do not find cellular automata very interesting at all
14:36 < narwh4l> ^
14:36 < narwh4l> They are neat, like fractals but somehow less useful
14:37 < fenn> you know rule 34 is just an instruction set
14:37 < kanzure> what about it?
14:37 < fenn> it's not any different from the code alife stuff you're looking at
14:39 < fenn> except time is shown on the y axis
14:40 < narwh4l> kanzure as a fringe topic that might be relevant but probably is not, you might find it useful to read about quines
14:40 < narwh4l> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quine_%28computing%29
14:41 < kanzure> fenn: then something is fundamentally wrong
14:41 < kragen> poppingtonic: so who is that other dude that showed that UTMs can be made of extremely simple components?  Was it the same guy who showed that you can build them mechanically out of simple components and who showed UTMs that are simple in automata theory?
14:42 < kanzure> neighbor update rules seem very different to me. i agree that UTMs have been demonstrated using patterns inside different cellular automatas with various rulesets, but why should i care?
14:42 < kanzure> you know, i think this webcam may be on a loop
14:42 < fenn> it's just turtles all the way down
14:44 < poppingtonic> kragen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfram%27s_2-state_3-symbol_Turing_machine
14:44 < poppingtonic> Alex Smith. That's the name.
14:45 < fenn> a turing machine is a special case of cellular automata
14:45 < poppingtonic> I don't think it's the same guy who showed
14:45 < poppingtonic>          that you can build them mechanically out of simple components
14:50 < kanzure> i think you mean "a special case of the computation that can be performed by cellular automata"
14:51 < kragen> poppingtonic: any leads on actually physically constructing one?
14:52 < kanzure> "Around 2000, Matthew Cook published a proof that Rule 110 is Turing complete, i.e., capable of universal computation, which Stephen Wolfram had conjectured in 1985. Cook presented his proof at the Santa Fe Institute conference CA98 before the publishing of Wolfram's book, A New Kind of Science. This resulted in a legal affair based on a non-disclosure agreement with Wolfram Research. Wolfram Research blocked publication of Cook's proof ...
14:52 < kanzure> ... for 2 years.[1]"
14:52 < kanzure> "The original emulation of a Turing machine contained an exponential time overhead due to the encoding of the Turing machine's tape using a unary numeral system. Neary and Woods (2006) modified the construction to use only a polynomial overhead.[5]"
14:53 < poppingtonic> kragen i thought research in DNA computing did that already?
14:53 < poppingtonic> rather, *demonstrated that already*
14:55 < kragen> no, it didn't work
14:55 < kragen> also the things that came closest to working weren't close to Turing machines
14:55 < kragen> presumably someone will get DNA computing working at some point but so far nobody has done so AFAIK
14:56 < kanzure> i was working on that
14:56 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/ellington/Modelling%20amorphous%20computations%20with%20transcription%20networks%20-%202009.pdf
14:59 < fenn> transcription networks are more like analog circuits
15:00 < fenn> it would be nice to use the digital nature of RNA to construct a digital information processing machine that modified sequences
15:00 < nmz787_i> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-3drtMneLIQ0/U3PPvgWE32I/AAAAAAAAFm8/LLNnHP22Qx0/w401-h535-no/IMG_2976.JPG
15:00 < kanzure> .title http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17443876
15:00 < yoleaux> Ribozyme catalysis of metabolism in the RNA world. - PubMed - NCBI
15:00 < kanzure> "In vitro selection has proven to be a useful means of explore the molecules and catalysts that may have existed in a primordial 'RNA world'. By selecting binding species (aptamers) and catalysts (ribozymes) from random sequence pools, the relationship between biopolymer complexity and function can be better understood, and potential evolutionary transitions between functional molecules can be charted. In this review, we have focused on ...
15:00 < kanzure> ... several critical events or transitions in the putative RNA world: RNA self-replication; the synthesis and utilization of nucleotide-based cofactors; acyl-transfer reactions leading to peptide and protein synthesis; and the basic metabolic pathways that are found in modern living systems."
15:00 < nmz787_i> "Best guess a piece of silicon wafer from the small pieces of silicon I saw down the center shaft of the pump. The pump came out of a brooks wafer loading robot that would pick up wafers out of a cassette and place them in a plasma etcher. The pump had a fine shatter screen on top but it there were two holes. I am guessing a wafer broke and fell onto the screen. When the pneumatic butterfly valve over the pump closed it pushed the
15:00 < nmz787_i> wafer through the screen into the blades. It was one of these:http://www.pchemlabs.com/product.asp?pid=3119"
15:01 < nmz787_i> " 54000 rpm to 0 in a fraction of a second. In the manual for the big turbo I am putting on my system it says in the event if a catastrophic failure like this there will be 3800 ft/lbs of force on the pump. A guy I know at intel told me about a large turbo crashing and tearing itself off the tool."
15:01 < fenn> nmz787_i: your lunar wainshaft went out of alignment
15:01 < kanzure> "In vitro selection has proven to be a useful means of explore the molecules"
15:02 < fenn> too much side fumbling
15:02 < kanzure> nobody copyedits this stuff??
15:03 < poppingtonic> kanzure: the pdf is broken.
15:03 < kanzure> no it's not?
15:03 < kanzure> which pdf?
15:03 < poppingtonic> "Modelling amorphous computations..."
15:04 < kanzure> works for me
15:04 < kanzure> .title http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18775793
15:04 < yoleaux> Evolutionary origins and directed evolution of RNA. - PubMed - NCBI
15:04 < kanzure> "In vitro selection experiments show first and foremost that it is possible that functional nucleic acids can arise from random sequence libraries. Indeed, even simple sequence and structural motifs can prove to be robust binding species and catalysts, indicating that it may have been possible to transition from even the earliest self-replicators to a nascent, RNA-catalyzed metabolism."
15:04 < kanzure> see this is why i like this person
15:04 < nmz787_i> poppingtonic: works for me too
15:04 < kanzure> that seems very similar to the computational results
15:05 < nmz787_i> there was even that MIT assistant prof I posted some new
15:05 < nmz787_i> 'theory' of life about a week or two ago
15:05 < nmz787_i> he did some RNA calcs
15:06 < poppingtonic> I redownloaded it. Works fine.
15:06 < kanzure> "Because of the diversity of aptamers and ribozymes that can be selected, it is possible to construct a 'fossil record' of the evolution of the RNA world, with in vitro selected catalysts filling in as doppelgangers for molecules long gone. In this way a plausible pathway from simple oligonucleotide replicators to genomic polymerases can be imagined, as can a pathway from basal ribozyme activities to the ribosome. Most importantly, ...
15:06 < kanzure> ... though, in vitro selection experiments can give a true and quantitative idea of the likelihood that these scenarios could have played out in the RNA world. Simple binding species and catalysts could have evolved into other structures and functions. As replicating sequences grew longer, new, more complex functions or faster catalytic activities could have been accessed. Some activities may have been isolated in sequence space, but ...
15:06 < kanzure> ... others could have been approached along large, interconnected neutral networks. As the number, type, and length of ribozymes increased, RNA genomes would have evolved and eventually there would have been no area in a fitness landscape that would have been inaccessible. Self-replication would have inexorably led to life."
15:06 < nmz787_i> Jeremy England
15:07 < nmz787_i> maybe this paper http://scitation.aip.org/content/aip/journal/jcp/139/12/10.1063/1.4818538
15:07 < kanzure> .title
15:07 < yoleaux> Statistical physics of self-replication
15:07 < poppingtonic> I read about that. Did anyone read the Constructor Theory papers? constructortheory.org
15:07 < kanzure> "Self-replication is a capacity common to every species of living thing, and simple physical intuition dictates that such a process must invariably be fueled by the production of entropy. Here, we undertake to make this intuition rigorous and quantitative by deriving a lower bound for the amount of heat that is produced during a process of self-replication in a system coupled to a thermal bath. We find that the minimum value for the ...
15:07 < kanzure> ... physically allowed rate of heat production is determined by the growth rate, internal entropy, and durability of the replicator, and we discuss the implications of this finding for bacterial cell division, as well as for the pre-biotic emergence of self-replicating nucleic acids."
15:08 < poppingtonic> where's paperbot?
15:08 < nmz787_i> he had a breakdown
15:08 < kanzure> what is john brockman doing here
15:09 < fenn> no nmz787_i he's "on a research fellowship"
15:09 < kanzure> research sabbatical
15:09 < poppingtonic> the "Modelling amorphous computations.." paper's supplementary data page is missing. what.
15:09 < nmz787_i> fenn: some artical said he was an asst prog
15:09 < nmz787_i> prof
15:09 < kanzure> paperbot is on a field expedition
15:09 < nmz787_i> blame the media
15:09 < fenn> blame meme media
15:10 < fenn> assistant prog sounds more likely
15:11 < kanzure> "Constructor theory seeks to express all fundamental scientific theories in terms of a dichotomy between possible and impossible physical transformations - those that can be caused to happen and those that cannot. This is a departure from the prevailing conception of fundamental physics which is to predict what will happen from initial conditions and laws of motion."
15:11 < poppingtonic> "The hairpin transcriptional gates are uniquely suited to the design of a complementary NAND gate that can serve as an underlying basis of molecular computing that can output matter rather than electronic information."
15:11 < kanzure> i did so many gels :(
15:12 < poppingtonic> kanzure: ?
15:12 < kanzure> how do you think they tested these molecules
15:12 < kanzure> lots and lots of pcr
15:14 < poppingtonic> ooh.
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15:48 < kanzure> this constructor theory stuff is a little long-winded, http://arxiv.org/pdf/1210.7439v2.pdf
15:50 < kragen> fenn: I think RNA processing has a high enough error rate that you need to incorporate error correction coding at a very low level
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15:55 < poppingtonic> kragen: has any of the simulations we've been discussing been shown to evolve such codes?
15:56 < kragen> poppingtonic: I don't know enough about them.  they'd have to introduce random errors into the replication process in order to evolve error correction though
15:59 < kanzure> "For example, the principle of testability is doubly counterfactual: it is that a certain task (the test, resulting in a falsifying outcome) must be possible if the theory is false"
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16:07 < kanzure> page 27 section 3.1 is okay
16:14 < kanzure> "3.9 Wealth; In constructor theory it is natural to define the wealth of an entity in a nonanthropocentric way as the set of transformations that the entity would be capable of performing without generating new knowledge. Wealth has always consisted fundamentally of knowledge, even though it has been limited by the capacity of relatively fixed installations for harnessing naturally occurring resources. Once universal constructors exist, ...
16:14 < kanzure> ... it will consist almost entirely of knowledge."
16:18 < poppingtonic> "No perfect constructors exist in nature. Approximations to them, such as catalysts or robots, have non-zero error rates and also deteriorate with repeated use. But we call a task A possible (which we write as A ✓ ) if the laws of nature impose no limit, short of perfection, on how accurately A could be performed, nor on how well things that are capable of approximately performing it could retain their ability to do so again."
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16:22 < fenn> why even call it wealth if it's just knowledge
16:22 < fenn> call it knowledge
16:23 < fenn> .wik praxis
16:23 < yoleaux> "Disambiguation: Praxis" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praxis
16:24 < kanzure> haha
16:24 < kanzure> "the set of transformations that the entity would be capable of performing without generating new knowledge" is not the same thing as knowledge, methinks
16:26 < kanzure> i think you can have knowledge that you can't reliably make tasks for, or something
16:26 < kanzure> locally-useless knowledge
16:27 < poppingtonic> does it have anything to do with incompressibility, K-complexity or minimum message length?
16:27 < fenn> i'm sort of confused, is this talking about the real world? or some mathematical masturbation fantasy
16:28 < kanzure> http://arxiv.org/pdf/1210.7439v2.pdf is talking about possible and impossible physical transformations, and principles as foundational to physics rather than laws of motion
16:30 < fenn> how do you jam messy real world atoms and phonons and fields into an equation with "input state of substrates" on one side
16:31 < fenn> there's a stupidly huge amount of information in every cubic micron of space
16:31 < kanzure> this paper does not advocate that
16:31 < kanzure> erm
16:31 < fenn> then what the hell are they talking about
16:31 < kanzure> this is a description not an equation
16:31 < fenn> also, doesn't quantum uncertainty mess all this up
16:32 < fenn> "Quantum indeterminacy is the apparent necessary incompleteness in the description of a physical system,"
16:32 < fenn> how can you say "possible" or "not possible" when you don't even know what's there
16:33 < kanzure> my pdf search function must be broken
16:33 < fenn> i'll believe "probability 1-1e-10000" but not "possible/not possible"
16:40 < poppingtonic> fenn: see the sections re: superinformation. they discuss how CT dissolves/explains the disconnect between classical and quantum information.
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16:44 < fenn> "no perfect constructors can exist in nature" would seem to validate my perception that this has no connection to the real world
16:44 < poppingtonic> that there can be no error?
16:44 < poppingtonic> sorry
16:45 < poppingtonic> that there *can* be error?
16:45 < fenn> he goes on to talk about how factories and robots have non-zero error rates, and deteriorate over time
16:46 < kanzure> he probably just thinks "perfect constructors" are perpetual motion machines
16:47 < fenn> a perfect constructor wouldn't be violating any conservation of energy or entropy laws
16:48 < fenn> catalysts aren't perpetual motion machines
16:50 < fenn> i dunno what the theory say about maxwell's demon
16:51 < fenn> (for all i know maxwell's demon is possible in reality)
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16:56 < fenn> by which i mean a heat pump with arbitrarily high coefficient of performance
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16:58 < fenn> wow i did not know this: "Before the discovery of DNA, von Neumann (1948) wondered how organisms can possibly reproduce themselves faithfully and evolve complex adaptations for doing so. He realized that an organism must be a _programmable_ constructor operating in two stages, namely copying its program and executing it to build another instance."
17:00 < kanzure> before dna was discovered it was widely hypothesized in biology land
17:06 < fenn> i hate the checkmark notation
17:06 < fenn> it looks just like an apostrophe
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17:07 < kanzure> trolloglyphics
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17:09 < fenn> i think what this constructor theory really needs in order to be relevant is some realization about the limits of working with noisy systems like Shannon's noisy channel coding theorem
17:10 < fenn> "it is possible to communicate discrete data (digital information) nearly error-free up to a computable maximum rate through the channel." i would add the relevant equation here but for hieroglyphics
17:11 < fenn> similarly constructors need substrate to work on, which is comparable to discrete data
17:14 < fenn> so it would be something like, "it is possible to construct artifacts (physical objects) nearly error-free up to a computable maximum rate in the workspace"
17:17 < fenn> call it the dirty workspace building theorem
17:18 < nmz787_i> I need some code that given a number say, 13, and some constant like 10, would generate the numbers 10 and 3
17:18 < nmz787_i> or if it was 23 generate 10 10 and 3
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17:19 < nmz787_i> the only thing I can think of is a while num_left>0: ; num_left-= 10;  if num_left<0: 10+abs(num_left);
17:19 < nmz787_i> but I really want something more like an assembly instruction, where the subtract operation returns the number removed
17:20 < nmz787_i> but it would need to be unsigned and not rollover
17:24 < fenn> .wik knapsack problem
17:24 < nmz787_i> oh, i guess a for loop with int division then handling the remainder with a modulo division will work
17:24 < yoleaux> "The knapsack problem or rucksack problem is a problem in combinatorial optimization: Given a set of items, each with a mass and a value, determine the number of each item to include in a collection so that the total weight is less than or equal to a given limit and the total value is as large as possible. It derives its name from the  …" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knapsack_problem
17:25 < fenn> or just 23%10 = 3 so 23 - 3 = 20 and 20/10 = 2
17:25 < nmz787_i> .py t=23; for i in range(0,t/10): t-=10; print 10; ; print t%10
17:25 < yoleaux> SyntaxError: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
17:26 < nmz787_i> .py t=23; for i in range(0,t/10): t-=10; print 10; if t%10>0: print t%10
17:26 < yoleaux> SyntaxError: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
17:26 < nmz787_i> .py t=23; for i in range(0,t/10): t-=10; print 10; if t%10>0: ;print t%10
17:26 < yoleaux> SyntaxError: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
17:26 < nmz787_i> well i fail at this irc python
17:27 < fenn> i had some trouble with it too
17:27 < fenn> also you can't do for loops on one line in python
17:28 < fenn> also int division is the devil
17:30 < nmz787_i> the devil?
17:30 < fenn> i shouldn't give it that much credit. "the devil is in the details"
17:31 < nmz787_i> i heard new python changed division or something to return floats by default, maybe.... something 'new'
17:31 < fenn> python's defaulting to int division has caused more trouble than any other "feature"
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17:31 < nmz787_i> but isn't that computer's default in general?\
17:31 < fenn> no?
17:32 < nmz787_i> no?
17:32 < nmz787_i> C it is the default I think
17:32 < nmz787_i> and assembly too
17:32 < fenn> C is not "a computer"
17:32 < fenn> i dont really know what happens in the ALU when you try to divide two numbers
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17:32 < nmz787_i> floating point is more work
17:32 < nmz787_i> unless you have some analog computer maybe
17:34  * fenn looks at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_algorithm#Integer_division_.28unsigned.29_with_remainder
17:35 < fenn> the problem with python's int division is it silently throws away the remainder
17:35 < fenn> .py 2/3
17:35 < yoleaux> 0
17:36 < nmz787_i> that seems perfectly legit for an int
17:36 < fenn> yeah if you're thinking about in division fine
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17:36 < fenn> but usually this happens buried deep in some program somewhere, and you get a bizarre incorrect result after changing a configuration value
17:38 < fenn> such rudeness!
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17:58 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Order_and_Chaos.tif
18:04 < fenn> "to determine whether to let a molecule through, the demon must acquire information about the state of the molecule and either discard it or store it. Discarding it leads to immediate increase in entropy but the demon cannot store it indefinitely"
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19:00 < kanzure> "The origin of cells was the most important step in the evolution of life on Earth. The birth of the cell marked the passage from pre-biotic chemistry to partitioned units resembling modern cells. The final transition to living entities that fulfill all the definitions of modern cells depended on the ability to evolve effectively by natural selection. This transition has been called the Darwinian transition."
19:00 < kanzure> wikipedia is full of crap
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19:09 < catern> the origin of cells was the most important step in the evolution of life on Earth from the perspective of things made up of cells
19:11 < kanzure> the development of cells did not mark some event where natural selection suddenly started -_-
19:12 < kanzure> oh wait
19:12 < kanzure> okay their grammar just sucks
19:16 < fenn> i get the feeling that paragraph was edited many times by different people
19:16 < fenn> rationale for deletion WP:ThisSucks
19:17 < kanzure> i suppose it is wrong to think that a simulation should have self-replicators developing cells
19:18 < kanzure> "cells" take advantage of lipid biophysics and nobody should have to implement lipid biophysics and the rest of reality
19:18 < fenn> cells only make sense if you have brownian motion diffusing concentrations away
19:18 < fenn> otherwise piles are fine
19:19 < kanzure> there are some defense/immune benefits
19:19 < fenn> sure, castles
19:19 < kanzure> and environment protection benefits, which i think ounts as defense or immune
19:19 < superkuh> Lipid biophysics contributes more to cells than just partitioning.
19:19 < fenn> yeah it's an energy storage mechanism like a capacitor
19:19 < kanzure> selective permeability.... bleh.
19:21 < fenn> also it constrains catalysts and substrates to a 2d plane
19:22 < fenn> something about anaerobic synthesis environments for nitrogen fixation
19:23 < fenn> but that wasn't important until much later
19:24 < kanzure> could be an entirely non-biological simulator. no need to program in organic chemistry, molecular dynamics, etc.
19:25 < fenn> yeah who needs interesting stuff
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19:25 < fenn> let them eat blocks
19:25 < kanzure> i think there's something wrong with those block simulators but i don't quite know what
19:26 < kanzure> the lack of link between code and blocks is one issue
19:26 < kanzure> disembodied genes just doesn't make sense
19:26 < fenn> what block simulators
19:26 < kanzure> tierra turned into some "robot with wheels" simulator :(
19:26 < fenn> why
19:27 < kanzure> because they need bodies and cells!
19:27 < fenn> the dying-inside counter is reaching pretty far into the negative
19:27 < kanzure> hm?
19:27 < fenn> earlier you said something like "if any more pieces of me die inside there might be nothing left"
19:28 < fenn> after a particularly heinous IT fail
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19:28 < fenn> just extending that metaphor beyond zero
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19:30 < fenn> i think we need more superresolution microscopy photos in the world
19:30 < fenn> people think cells are just these blobs blobbing around
19:30 < kanzure> they are antenna forests
19:31 < fenn> i mean this is pretty sad really http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Celltypes.svg
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19:32 < kanzure> http://files.arcfn.com/images/cell-vesicle.png
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19:32 < fenn> getting there
19:32 < fenn> http://mgl.scripps.edu/people/goodsell/illustration/mycoplasma
19:34 < kanzure> i'm not sure simulating that is a priority. that's a lot of extra physics.
19:34 < fenn> and talking about eukaryotes (sorry for the low res) http://mgl.scripps.edu/people/goodsell/illustration/pdb/panorama_poster.jpg
19:35 < kanzure> https://static1.cosmosmagazine.com/sites/default/files/styles/cosmos_holodeck_image/public/070714_holodeck_2.jpg?itok=Ds1wYMdD
19:36 < fenn> it doesnt like the token
19:37 < kanzure> http://mgl.scripps.edu/people/goodsell/books/MoL2figures
19:37 < fenn> ah yes the flagella painting; i had that printed out 1m x 2m on my dorm room wall
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19:38 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/irc/goodsell/goodsell-2.jpg
19:39 < kanzure> http://mgl.scripps.edu/people/goodsell/books/MoL2figures/Figure3.9a-reduced.jpg
19:42 < fenn> welp i know what i'll be scraping
19:44 < fenn> "Nanotechnology is available, today, to anyone with a laboratory and imagination. You can create custom nanomachines using commercially available kits and reagents. You can design and build nanoscale assemblers that synthesize interesting molecules. You can construct tiny machines that seek out cancer cells and kill them. You can build molecule-size sensors for detecting light, acidity or trace
19:44 < fenn> amounts of poisonous metals. Nanotechnology is a reality today, and nanotechnology is accessible with remarkably modest resources."
19:45 < kanzure> except it's highly unstable and totally broken
19:45 < fenn> "Modern cells provide us with an elaborate, efficient set of molecular machines that restructure matter atom-by-atom, exactly to our specifications. And with the well-tested techniques of biotechnology, we can extend the function of these machines for our own goals, modifying existing biomolecular nanomachines or designing entirely new ones."
19:45 < fenn> just think of it as pushing the boundaries of construction performance in a messy workspace
19:45 < kanzure> "atom-by-atom, exactly to our specifications" is stretching it
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19:47 < fenn> you can make any shape you want, as long as it's a string of amino acids
19:47 < kanzure> most of those strings get folded though
19:47 < kanzure> so that's not really true
19:47 < fenn> i meant that to be more snarky
19:48 < fenn> .wik you can get any color you want as long as it's black
19:48 < yoleaux> fenn: Sorry, that command (.wik) crashed.
19:48 < fenn> oh well
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19:51 < fenn> aw now his webserver hates me
19:52 < kanzure> i viewed all images with at least 2 seconds before each view
19:52 < kanzure> also, always use a user agent condom
19:52 < fenn> maybe it's just borked; gnusha won't load the page anymore either
19:54 < fenn> anyway looks like an interesting book http://mgl.scripps.edu/people/goodsell/books/bionanotech-contents.html
19:56 < fenn> Buy eBook - $116.99
19:57 < fenn> coloring books werent so expensive when i was a kid
19:57 < kanzure> "We can start the experiment with a population containing only nude replicators but the environment of the organisms can be arbitrary complex: the environment consists of computable tasks These tasks should be learned by the organisms. The organisms can pick up pieces of data (integer numbers in the current state of the implementation) and after processing them they simply write the result back to the environment. This process can be ...
19:57 < kanzure> ... considered as some kind of metabolism. Data transformation is just like eating and digesting."
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19:58 < kanzure> but....
19:58 < kanzure> what's the selective value of "processing some data" to them?
19:59 < fenn> how od you know what's a replicator
19:59 < kanzure> quote is from http://physis.sourceforge.net/old/doc/papers/icai.pdf
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19:59 < kanzure> well one way of knowing a replicator is if you run BLAST and see the same thing in your population
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19:59 < kanzure> another way is that i think this author's system has replicators-only
20:00 < fenn> apparently
20:00 < fenn> what if your replicators build other kinds of replicators you hadn't intended
20:01 < kanzure> what do you mean "what if" ?
20:01 < kanzure> oh, still asking about classification
20:01 < kanzure> does that matter?
20:01 < fenn> i mean most of these alife experiments start out with ridiculously boring assumptions and preconceived conclusions
20:01 < kanzure> like what?
20:01 < fenn> like "here we have a replicator, and here's some data it will digest."
20:01 < kanzure> hehe
20:02 < fenn> "observe as the data is transformed into digital poo"
20:02 < fenn> where's the room for surprising discoveries and unexpected outcomes
20:03 < fenn> digital systems were created so we could have _unsurprising_ outcomes, so you have to do a bit of work to get back to complexity
20:10 < kanzure> .title http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0302046
20:10 < yoleaux> [physics/0302046] Does the Red Queen reign in the kingdom of digital organisms?
20:10 < kanzure> "In competition experiments between two RNA viruses of equal or almost equal fitness, often both strains gain in fitness before one eventually excludes the other. This observation has been linked to the Red Queen effect, which describes a situation in which organisms have to constantly adapt just to keep their status quo. I carried out experiments with digital organisms (self-replicating computer programs) in order to clarify how the ...
20:10 < kanzure> ... competing strains' location in fitness space influences the Red-Queen effect. I found that gains in fitness during competition were prevalent for organisms that were taken from the base of a fitness peak, but absent or rare for organisms that were taken from the top of a peak or from a considerable distance away from the nearest peak. In the latter two cases, either neutral drift and loss of the fittest mutants or the waiting time to ...
20:10 < kanzure> ... the first beneficial mutation were more important factors. Moreover, I found that the Red-Queen dynamic in general led to faster exclusion than the other two mechanisms."
20:16 < kanzure> you could use arbitrary degees of freedom but i wouldn't know what to do with that data or how to tell if it was working
20:16 < kanzure> where different resources would be part of that (i guess this is more like a "vector" or "channel")
20:16 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/irc/David%20S.%20Goodsell%20-Bionanotechnology%20Lessons%20from%20Nature%20%5b2004%5d.pdf
20:17 < fenn> dear lazyweb, please read and send me mindstate diffs
20:18 < kanzure> your wish has been granted, but the diffs can only arrive over years of snarky irc conversations
20:19 < fenn> no i said a thousand bucks, not a thousand ducks
20:21 < fenn> does anyone know what this dolphin exoskeleton is from, and why does it have a huge mechanical cock http://fennetic.net/irc/Neofin-thumb.jpg
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20:23 < kanzure> something something david brin
20:24 < kanzure> neofins were from his uplift stuff
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20:37 < kanzure> https://medium.com/@jorge_lo/the-future-a-cat-litter-and-drm-6dbda26428f8
20:37 < kanzure> "Seriously CatGenie, you added fairly sophisticated DRM to a litter box? I’m a tad hurt you spent my money on building in a restriction instead of figuring out how to avoid constantly cooking poop."
20:39 < kanzure> "I did some Googling, and I found that the “Smart” in SmartCartridge is that it has an RFID chip inside of it to keep track of how much solution it has, and once it runs out, well, you can't refill it. I honestly did not believe this and tore one of the cartridges apart, and there it was, looking back at me, a tiny chip holding up it’s little metal finger."
20:39 < kanzure> "Thankfully, some amazing people are helping the CatGenie community.(Yeah, there’s a CatGenie community). They’ve released products like the custom firmware CatGenius and CartridgeGenius which allows you to use whatever solution you want."
20:39 < kanzure> hah
20:39 < kanzure> what a pile of crap
20:49 < kanzure> yeast fermentation power supply https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8455/8008302313_0fc1120a12_b.jpg
20:49 < fenn> in future soviet russia, chip tells YOU no refills
20:51 < fenn> i can see the discrete cosine blocks
20:55 < kanzure> data digestion... who comes up with this stuff...
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21:09 < delinquentme> BTW adblocks quite well for killing the new games feed on facebook
21:24 < kanzure> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m97_kL4ox0&t=5m53s
21:24 < kanzure> wut
21:28 < kanzure> i remember the arm reaching one but i don't remember why
21:29 < fenn> the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe
21:29 < fenn> this looks like hod lipson's stuff
21:29 < kanzure> oh yeah hod still exists
21:30 < fenn> you gotta admit this kind of simulation is way more entertaining than a bunch of colored lines on a memory map
21:31 < kanzure> so why didn't they try to get one that pushes the prize towards them (running with the prize, even), while pushing the enemy away or using a pincher to move the enemy away
21:31 < fenn> you're talking about t=10m20s ?
21:32 < kanzure> yes that program
21:33 < fenn> 1994 karl sims
21:36 < fenn> i gave a presentation at that very podium, i wonder if there's a recording on the web
21:37 < kanzure> i remember seeing a video of that, so yes
21:40 < kanzure> nope, wrong podium
21:41 < fenn> it was 4 years later than that video so they might have changed some stuff
21:42 < kanzure> http://vimeo.com/28735276
21:42 < kanzure> ?
21:43 < fenn> no that was stanford
21:44 < fenn> at google we were talking about hacker dojo and i was talking about the hardware lab and why one might want a hardware lab
21:45 < fenn> http://wiki.hackerdojo.com/w/page/26349587/Dojo@Google
21:51 < fenn> you probably know jeff lindsay (progrium) from his postbin stuff
21:52 < kanzure> stalkerlog has no intersections here
21:52 < fenn> it was a link you spammed at me once
21:53 < kanzure> stalkerlog has some leaks occassionally
22:01 < fenn> "I learned that the Internet does not understand the juxtaposition between scientific-graphs and trolling."
22:03 < fenn> from this graph i deduce that pedophiles are geniuses http://booksthatmakeyoudumb.virgil.gr
22:05 < kanzure> they have to be geniuses otherwise they get-- well, actually, i have no idea
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22:23 < fenn> is this someone we know http://www.phreedom.org/
22:26 < fenn> phreedom was from ukraine
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22:29 < kanzure> reminds me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMnYBHUdk84&t=30s
22:30 < fenn> haha virgil griffith is friends with vitalik buterin
22:31 < fenn> "NNDB is an intelligence aggregator that tracks the activities of people we have determined to be noteworthy, both living and dead."
22:32 < kanzure> "Over 40,000 profiles are available." fucking casuals
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22:33 < fenn> it's "notable" people
22:33 < fenn> Prime Minister of Belgium
22:33 -!- Guest2758 is now known as maaku
22:33 < fenn> US Senator from Alabama
22:33 < fenn> Global Positioning System
22:34 < fenn> Alien designer
22:34 < fenn> you know, the important stuff
22:34 < kanzure> "known alien"
22:35 < fenn> H. R. Giger was the most notable of those
22:36 < fenn> imho
22:38 < fenn> King Zog - Royalty - King of Albania
22:44 < kanzure> .title http://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=14781935138049637300&as_sdt=5,44&sciodt=0,44&hl=en
22:44 < yoleaux> Sorry...
22:44 < fenn> just "Sorry..."
22:51 < kanzure> a lifeform without rna/dna binding to external materials would be pretty boring or going nowhere fast
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