--- Log opened Sun Dec 28 00:00:05 2014
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01:43 < archels> cute http://www.ehsm.eu/lego_interferometer.jpg
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05:13 < Evoril> greeting all
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05:38 < Evoril> all afk?
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07:27 < heath> wow, someone already did the work for me!
07:27 < heath> https://github.com/lfex/py
07:27 < heath> an implementation of python on top of erlang
07:27 < heath> lfe is a lisp which compiles to erlang if anyone is confused
07:28  * heath deletes github.com/heath/pyex
07:29 < kanzure> hm
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08:18 < heath> http://gethurricane.org/#python
08:18 < heath> https://github.com/hurricane/driver-python
08:19 < heath> https://github.com/hurricane/hurricane
08:19 < heath> A scalable, extensible, distributed messaging system.
08:36 < heath> http://neo900.org/news/xmas-update
08:36 < heath> The truly open smartphone
08:36 < heath> that cares about your privacy.
08:38 < heath> "It [erlang] powers 40% of our world's telecommunications traffic."
08:40 < heath> "The Erlang VM was never intended to excel at the sort of problems that Python has traditionally focused on... yet it provides the sort of infrastructure that the Python community has been agonizing over for more than a decade. "
08:45 < heath> http://technicae.cogitat.io/2014/12/improved-python-support-in-erlanglfe.html
08:46 < heath> http://blog.lfe.io/announcements/2014/12/27/1641-easy-python-from-lfeerlang/
08:47 < heath> " If you want to process huge files, do lots of string manipulation, or crunch tons of numbers, Erlang's not your bag, baby. Try Python or Julia."
08:48 < heath> "But then, you may be thinking: I like supervision trees. I have long-running processes that I want to be managed per the rules I establish. I want to run lots of jobs in parallel on my 64-core box. I want to run jobs in parallel over the network on 64 of my 64-core boxes. Python's the right tool for the jobs, but I wish I could manage them with Erlang."
08:49 < heath> this isn't what i thought it was
08:49 < heath> i read it as a python implementation in erlang
08:49 < heath> this may be the better solution anyway
08:58 < heath> i guess most people in the hurricane project moved onto zeromq or nanomsg
08:59 < heath> or just use erlang
09:08 < superkuh> Open-BCI DIY-Neuroscience Maker-Art Mind-Hacking  (Currently Live!)
09:08 < superkuh> http://streaming.media.ccc.de/relive/6148/
09:08 < superkuh> +""
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09:19 < kanzure> just eeg stuff http://meta-mind.de/
09:20 < kanzure> "where they think consciousness is vibrating" oh come on
09:21 < kanzure> oh well. so much for ccc. /me closes
09:22 < archels> oh, I know that one. neurotubules!
09:22 < kanzure> eeg is pretty disappointing
09:23 < archels> you're preaching to the converted
09:23 < archels> although there might be some utility yet in neurofeedback
09:24 < archels> meta-mind.de's approach of rich visual direct feedback seems like a good approach in this regard
09:24 < kanzure> what i am most troubled by is that i am going to have to suffer a lifetime of people thinking eeg is wonderful
09:24 < kanzure> yes i agree that neurofeedback is a good idea
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09:29 < kanzure> i don't think it's fair to complain to me that i don't have a list of tasks for random people to do
09:31 < archels> can I pass on mine?
09:32 < kanzure> hm?
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09:47 < heath> http://turfjs.org/
09:47 < heath> linked from https://www.mapbox.com/blog/turf-gis-for-web-maps/
09:49 < kanzure> archels: i think you have good projects and you should definitely try to coerce or trick people into contributing
09:55 < archels> yeah, I should spend some time writing them up
09:55 < archels> I'm just now getting my feet wet on freelancer.com
09:56 < kanzure> oh, why?
09:56 < kanzure> oh you mean hiring?
09:56 < archels> yup
09:57 < archels> just for shits and giggles, at this point
09:58 < kanzure> hmm that social octopus person does glassblowing http://www.stickycricket.com/atomic/
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10:06 < kanzure> "On January 26, 2015, the Association for the Advancement of Artificial Intelligence (AAAI) will be holding a public  open house as part of their annual research conference at the Hyatt Regency Austin, 208 Barton Springs Road."
10:08 < kanzure> http://www.aaai.org/Conferences/AAAI/2015/aaai15schedule.pdf
10:14 < kanzure> "Plan Execution Monitoring through Detection of Unmet Expectations about Action Outcomes"
10:15 < archels> the AAAI is very uninteresting
10:15 < archels> I was a member for 2 years before I gave up
10:19 < kanzure> "Learning Articulated Motions from Visual Demonstration"
10:19 < kanzure> "Robot Learning Manipulation Action Plans by “Watching” Unconstrained Videos from the World Wide Web"
10:22 < kanzure> i can see why... this list of work does not seem like the sort of thing you want in an ai conference.
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11:02 < Evoril> ah jeshusssss
11:02 < Evoril> havent slept in 2 days
11:02 < Evoril> but i still have work to do
11:03 < Evoril> k huess ill just  get some shuteye instead
11:14 < heath> archels: sites like freelancer haven't given any leads
11:14 < heath> to me at least
11:14 < heath> i don't think i'm the only one though
11:14 < kanzure> wrong way, he was talking about hiring other people
11:19 < heath> i see
11:19 < heath> phew, kokuro.com is available, for only 688USD
11:20 < heath> archels: i'll be curious to know how that works for you
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11:33 < kragen> most gTLD domains of six letters or more are available
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11:44 < kanzure> http://www.nature.com/news/scientific-method-defend-the-integrity-of-physics-1.16535
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11:47 < kanzure> haha this is their solution? "Such a case must be made in formal philosophical terms. A conference should be convened next year to take the first steps. People from both sides of the testability debate must be involved."
11:47 < kanzure> that's the most silly solution ever
12:00 < poppingtonic> .wik hockeytalk
12:00 < yoleaux> "This is a list of common terms used in ice hockey along with explanations of their meanings." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_ice_hockey_terms
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12:11 < kanzure> http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/neuroskeptic/2014/12/27/synapse-memory-doctrine-threatened/
12:11 < kanzure> "Could a nonsynaptic storage mechanism based on nuclear changes mediate the maintenance of associative memories, particularly those induced in complex neural circuits in the mammalian brain, where a given neuron may have 1,000s or 10,000s of synaptic partners? An obvious difficulty confronting any hypothetical nuclear storage mechanism in the mammalian brain is how the appropriate number of connections can be maintained in a ...
12:11 < kanzure> ... synapse-specific manner after learning has occurred."
12:14 < kanzure> .title http://www.pnas.org/content/110/30/12456.full
12:14 < yoleaux> Very long-term memories may be stored in the pattern of holes in the perineuronal net
12:14 < kanzure> "A hypothesis and the experiments to test it propose that very long-term memories, such as fear conditioning, are stored as the pattern of holes in the perineuronal net (PNN), a specialized ECM that envelops mature neurons and restricts synapse formation. The 3D intertwining of PNN and synapses would be imaged by serial-section EM. Lifetimes of PNN vs. intrasynaptic components would be compared with pulse-chase 15N labeling in mice and ...
12:14 < kanzure> ... 14C content in human cadaver brains. Genetically encoded indicators and antineoepitope antibodies should improve spatial and temporal resolution of the in vivo activity of proteases that locally erode PNN. Further techniques suggested include genetic KOs, better pharmacological inhibitors, and a genetically encoded snapshot reporter, which will capture the pattern of activity throughout a large ensemble of neurons at a time precisely ...
12:15 < kanzure> ... defined by the triggering illumination, drive expression of effector genes to mark those cells, and allow selective excitation, inhibition, or ablation to test their functional importance. The snapshot reporter should enable more precise inhibition or potentiation of PNN erosion to compare with behavioral consequences. Finally, biosynthesis of PNN components and proteases would be imaged."
12:15 < kanzure> "The role of brain extracellular proteins in neuroplasticity and learning" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4028066
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12:25 < kanzure> hmm this is cited by boyden
12:25 < kanzure> and marblestone
12:25 < kanzure> hmm and marblestone and boyden have coauthored. maybe i should pay attention to marblestone.
12:26 < kanzure> in particular i have been meaning to read his brain interfaces paper http://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/12274513/Marblestone_gsas.harvard_0084L_11381.pdf?sequence=1
12:30 < kanzure> "fluorescent in situ sequencing in the context of intact, fixed tissue slices" well alright
12:33 < kanzure> here is someone who mentions microcephay and savants as an argument against neural tissue volume as an explanation of cognitive ability http://arxiv.org/pdf/1311.2961.pdf
12:35 < kanzure> page 4 figure 1 is pretty cool
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12:38 < kanzure> whole brain emulation projects should be working with microcephaly brains
12:48 < kanzure> maybe the ventricles store data
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12:51 < kanzure> "CSF is produced at a rate of 500 ml/day ... Since the subarachnoid space around the brain and spinal cord can contain only 135 to 150 ml, large amounts are drained primarily into the blood through arachnoid granulations in the superior sagittal sinus. Thus the CSF turns over about 3.7 times a day." nope
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13:15 < juri_> http://media.ccc.de/browse/congress/2014/31c3_-_6417_-_en_-_saal_g_-_201412271245_-_3d_casting_aluminum_-_julia_longtin.html#video
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13:20 < kanzure> oh right, that may have been a gradual change over a lifetime, and perhaps the brain just functionally reorganized
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13:39 < kanzure> "Yet they are found to have only 5% the normal volume of cerebral tissue (Lewin, 1980). While initially disbelieved, there are now two further reports of relatively normal individuals with such minute brain tissue volumes. While, as noted by Makorek (2012) and Forsdyke (2014, 2015), these cases stretch the credibility of brain ‘plasticity’ explanations (the 5% able to become functionally close to 100%), or ‘redundancy’ ...
13:40 < kanzure> ... explanations (we normally use 5% and the remaining 95% is superfluous), many neuroscientists still disbelieve. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and neurones are known to be remarkably stress-resistant (Ding et al., 2001). But there are growing indications that the hallowed foundations of modern neuroscience are not as stable as once supposed (Firestein, 2012; Satel and Lilienfeld, 2013)."
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13:47 < fenn> kanzure: heh meta-mind.de used to live at langton; i'm currently using a computer i bought from him, still has a bunch of files on the windows partition
13:47 < fenn> the pictures on the site are at langton or noisebridge
13:52 < fenn> we had a UFO cult next door that he would gather test subjects from
13:53 < kanzure> do you have their prospectus?
13:53 < fenn> i'm not sure what that means in this context
13:54 < kanzure> all good cults have prospectuses
13:54 < kanzure> basically they are pamphlets you hand out to prospective members
13:54 < kanzure> explaining what your cult is about and the membership benefits
13:54 < fenn> meta-mind's goal was to break free of rigid pre-programmed responses to life in general, he regarded himself as a chaos magician and the EEG was a way to introspect his responses
13:55 < kanzure> noimean ufocult
13:56 < fenn> the cult was named "sera phi" and i could never get a clear statement of beliefs out of anyone; i believe they smoked a lot of DMT and were concerned about the 2012 thing
13:56 < fenn> they had a stargate
13:57 < kanzure> you mean a ct scanner?
13:58 < fenn> the charismatic leader was an audio tech and thought you could heal people with sound waves; he had this bed you lay on with subwoofers playing standing acoustic waves
13:58 < fenn> not a CT scanner, it was a prop really
13:59 < kanzure> mechanical waves can probably do things to the body but my guess is that his particular waves were not targeted or doing anything interesting
13:59 < fenn> it was more like guided meditation
14:00 < fenn> considering the overlap in areas of interest you'd expect more interaction between us neighboring houses, but the paradigm gap was too large
14:01 < fenn> so meta-mind was sort of our ambassador
14:02 < fenn> .wik noimean
14:02 < yoleaux> "Hanoi (/hæˈnɔːɪ/  listen) is the capital of Vietnam and the country's second largest city. Its population in 2009 was estimated at 2.6 million for urban districts, 6.5 million for the metropolitan jurisdiction. From 1010 until 1802, it was the most important political centre of Vietnam." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanoi
14:02 < fenn> derp
14:03 < fenn> it's too bad calxia never got off the ground, i would have joined
14:03 < fenn> most cults are just "gimme money and sex" tied into weird religious beliefs, and they never actually do anything worthwhile
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14:08 < fenn> sometimes i wonder if people can hear what they sound like to others
14:08 < fenn> .tw https://twitter.com/SeraPhiCenter/status/4031990237
14:08 < yoleaux> Join me LIVE NOW for FREE Soul Alignment Readings with Mary MacNab on #BlogTalkRadio at http://tobtr.com/s/658975 or call (646) 929-0531 (@SeraPhiCenter)
14:10 < fenn> hehe http://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m62sluL1az1rt28efo1_400.gif
14:15 < kanzure> ah yes the paradigm clash between an inexplicable love for micropipettes and er...
14:16 < kanzure> also: maybe microcephaly is a brain imaging bug
14:16 < kanzure> when's the last time you saw a formaldehyde-preserved microcephaly brain
14:16 < fenn> never
14:17 < kanzure> ah... http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-qZoTjVIcOSw/Uh5MLeTcSgI/AAAAAAABIuo/LuRZSF4lDBw/s400/Brain+with+microcephaly.gif
14:18  * kanzure looks for a preserved hydrocephalete
14:19 < kanzure> http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/libraries/courses/neuroslides/lab5a/slide168.cfm
14:19 < kanzure> "Hydrocephalus: This specimen is a coronal section through a hydrocephalic brain. There is massive symmetric ventriculomegaly with marked narrowing of white matter and thinning of the corpus callosum. Although convolutions are flattened, the cortex is usually not destroyed; most of the tissue loss is white matter loss."
14:20 < kanzure> ( http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/libraries/courses/neuroslides/lab5a/images/5-168.png )
14:21 < fenn> certainly looks smaller
14:21 < kanzure> damn.
14:21 < fenn> the first one at least
14:24 < kanzure> maybe it's both an imaging artifact and a real thing
14:24 < fenn> why do you think it's an artifact at all?
14:25 < kanzure> because evidence of normal cognitive ability in (few) hydrocephalites really screws up attempts at reasoning about human cognition
14:26 < kanzure> although, i am not sure the "neural reorgnaization over long periods of time" hypothesis should be ruled out
14:26 < kanzure> the author above did so, citing .. "While, as noted by Makorek (2012) and Forsdyke (2014, 2015), these cases stretch the credibility of brain ‘plasticity’ explanations (the 5% able to become functionally close to 100%)"
14:28 < fenn> so "it's all in your head"
14:28 < kanzure> hm?
14:29 < fenn> bad pun, nm
14:29 < kanzure> oh actually, the brain plasticity explanation isn't too stretched,
14:29 < kanzure> how much brain matter dies during strokes?
14:29 < kanzure> go find someone plagued with strokes
14:29 < fenn> i'm not sure plasticity is the right word, because hydrocephalus is from birth
14:30 < kanzure> exclusively?
14:30  * fenn shrugs
14:30 < kanzure> "late onset leaky brain syndrome"
14:30 < kanzure> no results
14:31 < fenn> how do they diagnose hydrocephalus anyway
14:31 < fenn> is it ultrasound prenatal exam?
14:31 < kanzure> headaches and vomiting
14:31 < kanzure> oh, i think so
14:31 < kanzure> probably something like cranial size
14:31 < fenn> oh, right
14:32 < fenn> so your issue was with "evidence of normal cognitive ability" but it turns out that they have roughly equivalent brain volume, excluding the water filled areas
14:33 < kanzure> wait, they have equivalent brain volume?
14:33 < fenn> yeah, since the skull is larger too
14:33 < kanzure> in the cases described, there was no deformity
14:33 < fenn> also you switched suddenly from talking about microcephaly to hydrocephaly
14:33 < kanzure> yes i am very confused
14:34 < fenn> i think they are different things entirely
14:34 < fenn> microcephaly has something to do with microcephalin, yes? whereas hydrocephaly is caused by excess fluid pressure
14:34 < kanzure> consider page 3 http://arxiv.org/pdf/1311.2961.pdf the giant excerpt in the middle
14:35 < fenn> ohnoes i am out of screens
14:36 < fenn> "with savants and microcephalics, the volume of neural tissue is determined by cranial capacity. However, with hydrocephalics the volume is largely determined by the size of fluid-filled ventricles."
14:37 < kanzure> ah
14:37 < kanzure> "cranial capacity" is a silly term
14:39 < fenn> "in [10%] of cases, ventricular fluid occupied 95% of cranial capacity, yet half of this group had IQs above average. among these was a student with IQ 126 who had a first class honours degree in mathematics and was socially normal. ... instead of the normal 4.5cm thickness ... there was just a thin layer of mantle measuring a millimeter or so."
14:39 < fenn> i find it interesting that he/she was talented in mathematics
14:40 < kanzure> preoccupation with numbers :p
14:40 < fenn> maybe decreased white matter volume makes you better at math :P
14:40 < kanzure> they should have stated which subfield
14:41 < fenn> we'll never know
14:41 < fenn> ok so this is definitely not normal brain volume, he estimates brain mass somewhere around 50-150g
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14:43 < kanzure> maybe nick bostrom should be citing this as evidence for simulated universe hypothesis stuff
14:44 < fenn> nah
14:44 < fenn> it's worth noting they didnt measure memory capacity (cf) but only IQ
14:45 < fenn> er, gc
14:47 < kanzure> i don't think there's enough people integrating enough evidence in science in general
14:47 < kanzure> hard enough to keep track of all the piles of evidence
14:48 < fenn> "in 1934 librarian Paul Otlet envisioned a 'mechanical collective brain' to which individuals would connect through 'electric telescopes' that would seem to equate with today's personal computers"
14:48 < kanzure> also since nobody counted number of neurons, they might just be smaller-than-normal neurons but otherwise in tact
14:49 < kanzure> librarians are just a myth
14:49  * fenn reconnoiters with his electric otletoscope
14:49 < fenn> .gc otletoscope
14:49 < yoleaux> fenn: Sorry, that command (.gc) crashed.
14:49 < kanzure> interesting how he would propose a telescope but not an electronic book
14:49 < fenn> .gc anything at all
14:50 < yoleaux> fenn: Sorry, that command (.gc) crashed.
14:50 < fenn> bah
14:50 < kanzure> even an electronic typewriter would make more sense
14:50 < kanzure> in fact, there was already recordings on drums and barrels
14:50 < kanzure> and wasn't microfiche around back then?
14:51 < kanzure> was tape storage in use?
14:51 < fenn> no
14:51 < fenn> and no
14:51 < kanzure> punch-card-tape-storage wasn't around?
14:51 < fenn> "the book on the book" http://youtu.be/hSyfZkVgasI
14:52 < kanzure> .title
14:52 < yoleaux> Paul Otlet, visioning a web in 1934 - YouTube
14:52 < kanzure> heh
14:53 < kanzure> so remote long-distance projection
14:53 < fenn> the radiated library
14:53 < fenn> the most powerful works for the diffusion of human thought! muwahahahaha
14:54 < kanzure> "The relationship between ventricular dilatation, neuropathological and neurobehavioural changes in hydrocephalic rats"
14:55 < kanzure> meh only cognitive impairments
14:56 < kanzure> (although they do acknowledge the conflicting results reported with human hydrocephalics)
14:57 < kanzure> hehe google scholar incorrectly determined the title of another paper, "Financial Disclosure: None reported."
14:57 < kanzure> "We're broke, yo"
15:00 < fenn> "When the Nazis came, they cleared out the contents of the Palais Mondial, destroying over 70 tons worth of material, and making room for an exhibition of Third Reich art. Otlet’s productive career effectively came to an end, and he died a few years later in 1944."
15:02 < fenn> huh never heard of this guy
15:02 < fenn> .wik robert cailliau
15:02 < yoleaux> "Robert Cailliau (born 26 January 1947) is a Belgian informatics engineer and computer scientist. Cailliau helped Tim Berners-Lee develop the World Wide Web." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Cailliau
15:06 < fenn> Robert Cailliau on the WWW Proposal: "How It Really Happened." https://web.archive.org/web/20110106041256/http://www.computer.org/portal/web/computingnow/ic-cailliau
15:07 < kanzure> "For example, whereas in rats it is possible to identify some 4-6 visual areas, we can identify 12-17 in cats, 25 in macaques and maybe more than 50 in humans (Bourgeois 1997)."
15:08 < kanzure> "The manatee, for example, a marine mammal with a body size comparable to that of a dolphin and a brain volume comparable to that of a chimpanzee, has a completely lissencephalic neocortex." (smooth, non-gyrated)
15:09 < fenn> the manatee, nature's most improbable mammal
15:09 < kanzure> .title http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11692-012-9201-8
15:09 < yoleaux> On the Possible Shapes of the Brain - Springer
15:10 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/On%20the%20possible%20shapes%20of%20the%20brain.pdf
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15:10 < fenn> jupiter brains, matrioshka brains, photonic brains, relativistic brains
15:11 < fenn> oh don't forget exotic and degenerate matter
15:20 < fenn> "I was also working with the control system of the Proton Synchrotron — the smallest, but most complex, of our particle accelerators — and there in the 1970s we had set up a system of computers that talked to each other. Programs actually sent themselves over the network, and I'd written a byte code interpreter for mobile code. Petrie: So in the early '70s, you had networking, mobile code,
15:20 < fenn> and byte interpreters. You had the equivalent of Java and the Internet.
15:20 < fenn> In a sense, yes, and in fact we had graphical user interfaces. We had independent control consoles, and the whole lot, but it's all gone now. I'm pretty certain the Java people don't know. I just hope we haven't thrown away all the hardware. The whole thing was done on Norsk Data computers. They were a small Norwegian company — the last independent computer company in Europe, I think — and
15:20 < fenn> after that nothing existed except from the US, and of course from the US-perspective, if it isn't done in the US it doesn't exist in computing, right?"
15:22 < kanzure> http://brainfolding.sourceforge.net/ morphogenetic brain folding model
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15:22 < kanzure> "A command line tool to compute the local degree of folding from pial surface reconstructions. "
15:24 < kanzure> "But large brains are not always gyrencephalic and small brains are not always lissencephalic. As we saw previously, the manatee brain (Fig. 1) is a well-known example of the former case. Interestingly, the manatee cortex is also particularly thick: 4 mm on average, whereas the human cortex is 2.5 mm thick on average. This should make the manatee brain especially difficult to bend. Our simulations showed indeed that the width of ...
15:24 < kanzure> ... folds—their wavelength—depends directly on cortical thickness, and that a thick cortex will require more growth than a thin cortex to fold (Fig. 4d)."
15:25 < poppingtonic> .wik ellsberg paradox
15:25 < yoleaux> "The Ellsberg paradox is a paradox in decision theory in which people's choices violate the postulates of subjective expected utility. It is generally taken to be evidence for ambiguity aversion. The paradox was popularized by Daniel Ellsberg, although a version of it was noted considerably earlier by John Maynard Keynes." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellsberg_paradox
15:25 < cluckj> sounds like advanced phrenology
15:26 < fenn> it is advanced phrenology
15:27 < cluckj> oh
15:27 < fenn> we have better measuring tools these days than a bag of beans
15:27 < poppingtonic> data-driven phrenology
15:27 < cluckj> evidence-based phrenology
15:29 < fenn> why is the "ellsberg paradox" considered a paradox at all?
15:29 < fenn> it's just a continuation of risk aversion
15:30 < poppingtonic> the assumption (which is, of course totally spurious) is that humans follow the laws of normative decision theories.
15:31 < FourFire> " thought you could heal people with sound waves; he had this bed you lay on with subwoofers playing standing acoustic waves" hey, I had that cult idea once!
15:31 < FourFire> what sort of healing was he claiming?
15:32 < FourFire> General, or just infectious diseases?
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15:32 < fenn> FourFire: this is all i know: "Anandá took his knowledge of the meta-physical applications of ancient sacred tonal resonant frequency and vibration and founded Sera Soma, a sound healing wellness center. Including nutrition and health consultations, Sera Soma became a center for combining nutrition and sound therapy modalities.
15:32 < fenn> In 2004, Anandá formed Sera Phi providing scientifically advanced tools to facilitate vibro-acoustic and electro-frequency therapies"
15:33 < FourFire> "sometimes i wonder if people can hear what they sound like to others" imperfectly, if the other end isn't using a headphones + mic
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15:34 < cluckj> lol
15:37 < fenn> wtf he had 28GB of ram and 4TB of raid
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15:39 < kanzure> cluckj: is the content of the middle paragraph on page 3 (about popper) an accurate summary http://arxiv.org/pdf/1210.7439v2.pdf
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15:41 < heath> .title http://www.theonion.com/articles/laidback-company-allows-employees-to-work-from-hom,37358/
15:41 < yoleaux> Laid-Back Company Allows Employees To Work From Home After 6 P.M. | The Onion - America's Finest News Source
15:41 < cluckj> yes
15:43 < cluckj> it seems like a drive-by citation though
15:43 < kanzure> certainly is
15:44 < fenn> "cancer cells sound different from normal cells. We hope that in the future doctors will be able to “hear” these changes, thus enabling them to diagnose illnesses at the onset."
15:44 < fenn> hum. well maybe they do have a different impedance spectrum, who knows
15:45 < kanzure> what is the sound of one flagellum flagellating?
15:45 < cluckj> fap fap fap
15:46 < fenn> FourFire: here's some more if you still care... my eyes glazed over about halfway down http://web.archive.org/web/20111029090714/http://seraphi.org/sera-lab/research.html
15:47 < kanzure> animation of flagellum growth (no sound, though) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLTFiekwFy8
15:47 < fenn> "Neurons may be activated by electrical fields potentials of low intensity and fast rise time applied directly to the skin, at a power level that cannont be felt. The skin may therefore become a receptor for all manor of information interface, except that the information needs to be encoded as if it were received by a sensory cell. Once the properly encoded pulse trains are applied to the neural
15:47 < fenn> system through electrical excitation of skin, the nerves and brain are oblivious to the source of the information, and receive it as yet another perceptive sensation."
15:47 < fenn> this is the flanagan neurophone idea, which unfortunately turned out to be ultrasonic bone conduction hearing
15:48 < kanzure> surely not all mechanoreception in skin is just bone conduction?
15:48 < cluckj> alright I can't figure out what that paper is trying to say, but the popper reference is okay
15:48 < kanzure> got it
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15:50 < cluckj> eh
15:51 < fenn> the flagellum is really pretty incredible
15:51 < fenn> A+ would grow again
15:51 < cluckj> the author seems to have stopped reading philosophy of science at popper
15:52 < kanzure> "It has been observed that patients with autism spectrum disorders have, on average, a larger brain volume and a higher incidence of macrocephaly (20 %) compared with control populations (4 %). .. non-affected mothers and fathers of ASD patients also exhibit a high incience of macrocephaly, similar to that of their affected offspring (Lainhart et al. 2006), suggesting that the large brain volume may not be an effect of the pathology, but ...
15:52 < kanzure> ... an inherited risk factor."
15:52 < kanzure> cluckj: hehe, that's what i was worried about. often i forget everything after popper too....
15:52 < cluckj> which is fine I guess since science hasn't changed in 50 years
15:52 < fenn> that's not quite true
15:52 < kanzure> *incidence
15:52 < fenn> we have a lot more multivariate regression now
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15:53 < fenn> also people are better at double blinding and paying attention to statistics in general
15:53 < cluckj> I was being sarcastic :P
15:53 < fenn> SNARK MARKS ARE MANDATORY!!!
15:53 < cluckj> AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
15:53 < kanzure> other than basic falsifiability and null hypothesis stuff, and not having fucked up epistemology, what else is super important to have on the list?
15:54 < fenn> extreme usage of parenthetical phrases, hedging, weasel words, and passive tense is generally recommended
15:54 < kanzure> hieroglyphics
15:54 < fenn> !!!~
15:54 < cluckj> popper was looking at extremely organized and government-run science immediately following WWII
15:55 < fenn> the best kind of science
15:55 < fenn> SCIENCE
15:56 < cluckj> lol
15:56 < cluckj> I think I already said to put Ian Hacking on your list
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15:56 < fenn> there's this trend to say that "oh the 1950s only made so much cool shit because it was low hanging fruit"
15:57 < fenn> but then the 1970s continued that trend
15:58 < fenn> er, the trend of discovering stuff
15:58 < fenn> and making cool shit
15:58 < cluckj> that's a bit naive
16:00 < cluckj> anyway, Lakatos is a better version of Popper than Popper is
16:01 < kanzure> ah?
16:01 < kanzure> also these books sound boring as hell http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Hacking#Articles although the articles look maybe okay
16:02 < kanzure> .wik imre lakatos
16:02 < yoleaux> "Imre Lakatos (Hungarian: Lakatos Imre [ˈlɒkɒtoʃ ˈimrɛ]; November 9, 1922 – February 2, 1974) was a Hungarian philosopher of mathematics and science, known for his thesis of the fallibility of mathematics and its 'methodology of proofs and refutations' in its pre-axiomatic stages of development, and also for introducing the concept of the ' …" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imre_Lakatos
16:02 < cluckj> I think there's an article version of one of his books
16:02 < kanzure> .wik research program
16:02 < yoleaux> "A research program (UK: research programme) is a professional network of scientists conducting basic research." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_program
16:02 < cluckj> which is far superior to the book itself unless you really dig particle physics
16:02 < kanzure> what? "Lakatos found falsificationism impractical and often not practiced, and found normal science—where a paradigm of science, mimicking an exemplar, extinguishes differing perspectives—more monopolistic than actual."
16:03 < fenn> yeah that sounds about right
16:03 < kanzure> "Lakatos found multiple research programmes to coexist" is the "started" version of "found"
16:03 < kanzure> was he describing shit or trying to determine good approaches to thinking
16:03 < kanzure> this is a very weird article
16:04 < cluckj> both
16:05 < fenn> Lakatos later moved to silicon valley and defined numerous code smells and the twelve factor app paradigm.
16:05 < cluckj> he saw things in the real world and tried to philosophically resolve them into popper's work
16:06 < cluckj> oh I was thinking about andrew pickering on the article
16:06 < cluckj> I don't think there's an article version of The Social Construction of What?
16:08 < kanzure> i must be misunderstanding, because half of this sounds like trying to dictate how human labor in science should be allocated, while the other half is about a theory of science and thinking and not being wrong
16:08 < kanzure> and i have no idea why this is intermixed
16:09 < cluckj> bad wiki authors?
16:10 < kanzure> "Lakatos saw himself as merely extending Popper's ideas, which changed over time and were interpreted by many in conflicting ways. He contrasted Popper, the "naive falsificationist" who demanded unconditional rejection of any theory in the face of any anomaly (an interpretation Lakatos saw as erroneous but that he nevertheless referred to often); Popper1, the more nuanced and conservatively interpreted philosopher; and Popper2, the ...
16:10 < kanzure> ... "sophisticated methodological falsificationist" that Lakatos claims is the logical extension of the correctly interpreted ideas of Popper1 (and who is therefore essentially Lakatos himself). It is, therefore, very difficult to determine which ideas and arguments concerning the research programme should be credited to whom"
16:10 < fenn> it could be refactored, but often the original thinking is deeply mixed and it's hard to separate should vs is
16:10 < fenn> i mean it takes work to refactor the article, vs just summarizing some book
16:11 < cluckj> ^
16:11 < fenn> i am just babbling though; i haven't read either popper or lakatos
16:13 < kanzure> i find it strange how the article on null hypotheses does not even mention popper
16:14 < kanzure> oh, it does mention falsifiability by reference though
16:14 < kanzure> so there's that
16:15 < fenn> 'Popper discusses this in his essay, “Evolutionary Epistemology”, in which he argues that all knowledge develops from an evolutionary process of variation and selection. In its application to science, he termed this view “falsificationism”, the idea that scientific knowledge grows by conjecture and refutation, not by bits of observational evidence somehow congealing into theories and
16:15 < fenn> gradually solidifying into absolute truth.'
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16:15 < fenn> null hypothesis.. what is that again?
16:15 < kanzure> .wik null hypothesis
16:15 < yoleaux> "In statistical inference on observational data, the null hypothesis refers to a general statement or default position that there is no relationship between two measured phenomena." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Null_hypothesis
16:16 < kanzure> "Rejecting or disproving the null hypothesis—and thus concluding that there are grounds for believing that there is a relationship between two phenomena (e.g. that a potential treatment has a measurable effect)—is a central task in the modern practice of science, and gives a precise sense in which a claim is capable of being proven false."
16:16 < kanzure> there needs to be a meta null hypothesis,though
16:17 < kanzure> these things should be mentioned right after occam's razor (or before)
16:17 < kanzure> but the razor is more popular for some reason
16:18 < fenn> because it's useful for scoring debate points
16:18 < fenn> "your theory sucks because occam's razor" sounds better than "have you considered the null hypothesis?"
16:18 < kanzure> lousy name anyway
16:19 < fenn> i agree
16:19 < cluckj> lol
16:20 < cluckj> occam's razor is also pretty poorly understood
16:20 < fenn> it's actually difficult to even think about null hypotheses; we usually substitute one explanation for another, not just *nothing*
16:21 < fenn> consider "the smelly green stuff on the sidewalk is not from horses shitting"
16:22 < fenn> immediately you start thinking of other specific processes that could have caused the smelly green stuff
16:23 < kanzure> 23:41 < jrayhawk> if the null hypothesis is a stupid thing nobody cares about, then the hypothesis will also be a stupid thing nobody cares about
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16:24 < kanzure> 00:26 < jrayhawk> people working from sane null hypotheses jump ahead of the science by decades
16:25 < fenn> i think jrayhawk's "null hypothesis" was not in fact null; he was saying that carbohydrates (or whatever) cause inflammation and general pathology
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16:26 < fenn> < jrayhawk_> The formation of a good working null hypothesis for how sugar is supposed to work necessarily involves phenolics.
16:27 < fenn> this sentence doesn't make sense to me
16:27 < kanzure> wrong cause, misattribution, unbalanced conservation of energy/matter/something, relationships where none exist, confounding factors, hidden variables, what are the other obvious errors?
16:27 < fenn> i mean i think i get what he's trying to say, but it doesn't match my understanding of "null hypothesis"
16:28 < fenn> spurious correlation
16:29 < kanzure> "statements that are correct but for the wrong reasons" i don't know the name of this error
16:30 < kanzure> oh and then there's a set of measurement-related errors... like measuring the wrong things, posulating unmeasurable nonsense, er..
16:30 < fenn> positive result publication bias, (jonah lehrer effect)
16:30 < fenn> .wik decline effect
16:30 < yoleaux> "The decline effect may occur when scientific claims receive decreasing support over time. The term was first described by parapsychologist Joseph Banks Rhine in the 1930s to describe the disappearing of extrasensory perception (ESP) of psychic experiments conducted by Rhine over the course of study or time. In its more general term,  …" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_effect
16:31 < fenn> trying to list all the failure modes of science go on forever
16:31 < kanzure> ah yes and the closely related "tower of insufferable bullshit loosely held together" ("sure! i can replicate those results, as long as i am allowed to use the original authors and the original lab and their equipment. also please provide me with a time machine.")
16:31 < fenn> will go on*
16:32 < kanzure> i think it's cute how nate looks at these papers and estimates no engineering setbacks a tall
16:32 < kanzure> *at all
16:33 < fenn> "scientists who are exploring another option: that the act of observing the universe changes the universe, and that repeated measurement might actually be rendering earlier results invalid. In other words, antipsychotic drugs did work originally, but the more we measured their effectiveness, the more the laws governing those drugs changed so they ceased to be effective."
16:33 < kanzure> i need to resolve that
16:33 < fenn> bwahaha
16:33 < kanzure> that's like a double greg egan effect or something
16:33 < fenn> the delusional hypothesis
16:34 < fenn> not greg egan, more like philip dick
16:34 < kanzure> greg egan was the one that had the territories of math getting eaten
16:34 < kanzure> so valid science being destroyed/used up sounds like a greg egan thing to me
16:35 < fenn> but it was not repeatable math in the first place
16:35 < cluckj> hah
16:35 < fenn> thus it's "not even wrong"
16:35 < cluckj> I'd call it changes in the methods used to rate their effectiveness
16:36 < cluckj> like, cancer rates increase as doctors get better at diagnosing cancer
16:36 < kanzure> oh sure, but the alternative is silly and fun to consider
16:36 < fenn> the silly alternative that we are getting more cancer~
16:37 < cluckj> those aren't mutually exclusive
16:37 < fenn> kanzure the blockchain does something like this, where "truth" changes depending on when and where you look at it
16:41 < cluckj> s/blockchain/reality
16:41 < fenn> we have better models for the blockchain
16:41 < cluckj> true
16:41 < fenn> what reality does is still up for debate
16:43 < kanzure> i wonder if you could dissolve a brain without losing synaptic details (like receptor distribution)
16:44 < fenn> haha "On this day long ago, a child was born who, by age 30, would transform the world. Happy Birthday Isaac Newton b. Dec 25, 1642"
16:48 < kanzure> "The number of neurons per unit cerebral cortex surface is constant, 10^5 neurons/(mm^2). This was first estimated by Bok [18], and confirmed using cel counts [19, 20]. In both latter studies, cell counts (neurons and glia cells) were performed for five regions on the cerebral cortex that differ strongly in thickness and composition of the layers. Moreover, these samples were taken from four mammals of very different brain size (mouse, ...
16:48 < kanzure> ... rat, cat, monkey). Both studies found not only the same number of 10^5 neurons per mm^2 for the different samples of each species, but also for each of the four species tested. The average cortical surface per neuron is thus k = 10^-5 mm^2, irrespective of the cerebral size and the location of the cortical surface."
16:48 < kanzure> from http://arxiv.org/pdf/1308.1252.pdf
16:54 < kanzure> hmm there is a biorxiv http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2014/02/15/002691
16:58 < kanzure> "CC-BY-NC-ND" er is ND even compatible with citing
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17:10 < kanzure> "shared last authorship" can they do that
17:14 < kragen> fortunately copyright does not prevent you from citing so you can tell authors who attempt to keep you from doing it to fuck right off
17:24 < fenn> i got "the open society and its enemies" and "the logic of scientific discovery" - are there other books by popper that are more important to read first?
17:25  * fenn gets "conjectures and refutations" too
17:26 < fenn> oh such awful typesetting
17:27 < kanzure> "Declines in IQ scores and cognitive dysfunctions in children with acute lymphocytic leukaemia treated with cranial irradiation"
17:28 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
17:28 < drazak> paperbot: http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1993768?sid=21104950382091&uid=3737664&uid=2&uid=4
17:28 < kanzure> "cranial irradiation may impair ccognitive function, guys"
17:28 < kanzure> "Radiation-induced impairment of hippocampal neurogenesis is associated with cognitive deficits in young mice" (2004)
17:28 < kanzure> no kidding?
17:29 < fenn> .title
17:29 < yoleaux> JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
17:29 < kanzure> oh, i guess targetted irradiation would be a useful thing
17:29 < fenn> seems like everything wants a cookie these days
17:29 < fenn> cookie monsters
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17:30 < drazak> yeah
17:30 < drazak> its awful
17:31 < drazak> my institution sucks
17:31 < drazak> WTB better institution
17:31 < fenn> all institutions suck. smash the state! black power
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17:44 < cluckj> fenn, what do you want to read popper for?
17:44 < fenn> i feel like it's something i should have read
17:44 < cluckj> oh, I mean it in the "what do you want to get out of his work" sense
17:45 < fenn> i have no idea
17:45 < cluckj> not the "WHY WOULD YOU EVER READ THAT" sense
17:45 < cluckj> start with the logic of scientific discovery
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17:52 < cluckj> I also suggest looking on youtube for lakatos' lectures
17:52 < cluckj> his accent is fantastic
17:54 < kanzure> .g site:youtube.com lakatos
17:54 < yoleaux> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1edPenNyGfI
17:54 < kanzure> .title
17:54 < yoleaux> Roby Lakatos & Linda Lampenius - Violin "Csardas" HD. - YouTube
17:57 < cluckj> womp womp not on youtube
17:57 < cluckj> http://www.lse.ac.uk/philosophy/About/lakatos/lectures.aspx
17:57 < cluckj> .title
17:57 < yoleaux> Lakatos lectures - Lakatos - About the Department - Philosophy, Logic and Scientific Method - Home
17:58 < cluckj> yes, those are the ones I was thinking of
18:00 < cluckj> if you find the philosophy of science texts a bore, the early sociology of science and sociology of scientific knowledge stuff is better
18:02 < cluckj> e.g. Merton or Kuhn (ugh)
18:03 < kanzure> mostly i am interested in not being wrong
18:05 < cluckj> about how science works?
18:05 < kanzure> no
18:06 < cluckj> about..........anything?
18:06 < kanzure> about thinking
18:06 < kanzure> thoughts can be wrong
18:06 < kanzure> i don't want to make bullshit
18:06 < kanzure> that's just a waste of everyone's time
18:06 < cluckj> welcome to the human race :P
18:07 < kanzure> the institution of science can go do whatever it wants for all i care
18:07 < cluckj> Bateson's Steps Toward an Ecology of Mind
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18:12 < poppingtonic> .wik the sleepwalkers
18:12 < yoleaux> "The Sleepwalkers: A History of Man's Changing Vision of the Universe is a 1959 book by Arthur Koestler. It is one of the main accounts of the history of cosmology and astronomy in the Western World, beginning in ancient Mesopotamia and ending with Isaac Newton." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sleepwalkers
18:19 < kanzure> neat "Inconsistencies and Controversies Surrounding the Amyloid Hypothesis of Alzheimer's Disease"
18:20 < fenn> i already read kuhn, or at least enough to get the idea
18:21 < kanzure> also cool "PET Quantification of Cerebral Oxygen Metabolism in Small Animals"
18:22 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@2606:6000:cb85:6a00:9592:c60f:1227:cfd7] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
18:23 < cluckj> anything after kuhn?
18:25 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@2606:6000:cb85:6a00:9592:c60f:1227:cfd7] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:25 < cluckj> his stuff is really historically internalist
18:28 < fenn> i don't remember.. it was part of a history and philosophy of science class ~10 years ago
18:28 < cluckj> oh
18:33 < kanzure> "Astroglial cells in the human have a volume 27 times greater than the same cells in the mouse’s brain.[30]" Koob, Andrew (2009). The Root of Thought. FT Press. p. 186. ISBN 978-0-13-715171-4.
18:46 < nmz787> .tell chris_99 latest CAD stuff https://github.com/nmz787/microfluidic-cad/blob/master/implicitCAD/output/tobacco_mesophyll_protoplast_fusion_device.svg
18:46 < yoleaux> nmz787: I'll pass your message to chris_99.
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19:14 < nmz787> .tell chris_99 bit easier to see, but not as crisp: https://github.com/nmz787/microfluidic-cad/blob/master/implicitCAD/output/tobacco_mesophyll_protoplast_fusion_device.jpg
19:14 < yoleaux> nmz787: I'll pass your message to chris_99.
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19:19 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-182-230.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:23 < nmz787> .tell chris_99 here is a snapshot of the 50MB STL, not as good as the SVG rendition, which wasn't perfect itself https://raw.githubusercontent.com/nmz787/microfluidic-cad/master/implicitCAD/output/tobacco_mesophyll_protoplast_fusion_device__3D.png
19:23 < yoleaux> nmz787: I'll pass your message to chris_99.
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19:44 < kanzure> what is the name for the "loss of function"-style studies in neuroscience
19:44 < kanzure> apparently it is not "loss of function"
19:55 < kanzure> http://www.lowrisc.org/ "lowRISC is producing fully open hardware systems. From the processor core to the development board, our goal is to create a completely open computing eco-system."
19:56 < kanzure> and a video ("starts at 16 minutes") http://streaming.media.ccc.de/relive/6156/
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20:26 < kanzure> "It's plausible based on public research that any well-funded adversary can break 1024-bit RSA. You should assume 1024-bit RSA is simply broken."
20:26 < kanzure> "Yes and given that I'm kinda surprised we haven't seen any NSA docs talking about breaking 1024-bit RSA. That should have been their bread and butter, at least as far as DNI is concerned, a few years ago."
20:26 < kanzure> "What 'yuhong said: it could be expensive, with NSA having the capability to break only one every couple months. They might need to carefully coordinate which keys they break, in which case it would be an important secret which CA keys were broken."
20:27 < kragen> DNI?
20:28 < kanzure> not sure
20:29 < kanzure> maybe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Director_of_National_Intelligence
20:37 < sheena2> welder hates
20:37 < sheena2> hats
20:37 < sheena2> anyone know things about the auto-dim kind?
20:37 < kragen> LCD
20:38 < kanzure> no way they're liquid crystal displays
20:38 < kragen> auto-darkening welder's face masks, you mean, right?
20:38 < kanzure> that sounds unlikely
20:39 < sheena2> yes, lcd
20:39 < sheena2> kragen, do you jown one?
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20:40 < kragen> no, I used the cheap non-auto-darkening type
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20:41 < kragen> I got flashed a couple of times as a result too
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20:41 < sheena2> and you can still see?
20:41 < kragen> yeah
20:41 < sheena2> which cheap one did you use, and did you find it good-enough? what sort of welding were you dongi?
20:42 < kragen> whatever the Crucible gave us.  I was just taking a few classes there: stick welding, MIG welding, and flame cutting
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20:43 < kragen> I see people doing stick welding without any eye protection on a regular basis around here actually
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20:43 < kragen> people in Argentina are less safety-conscious
20:43 < kragen> I flashed myself when I got tired and careless, which is not a good time to be welding, with or without protective equipment
20:44 < kragen> but we're talking about a barely-double-digit denominator of hours here
20:44 < kragen> if we were talking about hundreds or thousands of welding hours things might be different
20:44 < sheena2> indeed.
20:44 < sheena2> im looking to do a few small projects, not sure i'l llike it or want to do more
20:45 < sheena2> so i dont want to spend 500 on a helmet!!
20:45 < sheena2> some here are 2000!!
20:45 < kragen> similarly the people who I see on the street stick-welding without eye protection are doing maybe five or ten seconds per weld, and maybe half a dozen or so welds in a day
20:45 < kragen> also I imagine doing it in sunlight protects your retina, if not your cornea
20:45 < sheena2> intersting. what sort of things are they doing?
20:45 < kragen> oh, just random repairs on metal things
20:46 < kragen> not skilled welders
20:46 < kragen> the big downside of not having an autodarkening helmet is that when you're stick welding you can't see to strike the arc
20:46 < sheena2> ah
20:46 < kragen> you have to do it entirely by feel
20:46 < kragen> which is hardest when you're just starting
20:46 < sheena2> yes, and you cant see where your tip is, so you have to keep steady when flipping down visor
20:47 < sheena2> im mig welding, so i think i just squeeze a trigger?
20:47 < kragen> yeah, although that's easier than it sounds
20:47 < kragen> yeah
20:47 < kragen> you still have to control the distance but you can do that by the light of the arc
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20:48 < kragen> kanzure: why does it sound unlikely? :)
20:48 < nmz787> i saw people welding with no masks like it was nothing, in india
20:48 < kanzure> because masks existed prior to liquid crystal displays
20:49 < nmz787> I did it once or twice for a few seconds when I got back home... didn't seem too bad to do in a pinch, but I have a helmet (just a cheap single-color filter)
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20:49 < kragen> yeah, not autodarkening ones, though
20:49 < nmz787> na
20:49 < nmz787> but they sell them at harbor freight for like 50 buck
20:50 < kragen> oh, that's useful to know, nmz787. do you mean autodarkening helmets or the regular kind?
20:50 < kanzure> link?
20:50 < nmz787> I was always wary, but a little lag doesn't seem too bad after seeing the indians going at it
20:50 < sheena2> nmz787: you're talking bout regular ones?
20:50 < nmz787> autodarkening
20:50 < sheena2> ooh
20:50 < nmz787> http://www.harborfreight.com/blue-flame-design-auto-darkening-welding-helmet-91214.html
20:51 < kragen> the 3M ones are typically 100μs
20:51 < nmz787> $54.99
20:51 < kanzure> blue flame means it goes fast
20:51 < nmz787> 1/25,000 second switching speed
20:51 < nmz787> that would be 40us right?
20:51 < kragen> that's 40μs, faster than the 3M one, if it's real :)
20:51 < sheena2> http://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/-10-fixed-shade-auto-darkening-welding-helmet/A-p8535478e our equiv to harbor frate
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20:53 < nmz787> kanzure: any idea how easily it would be to port this to openSCAD or freecad or cadquery? https://github.com/nmz787/microfluidic-cad/blob/master/implicitCAD/tobacco_mesophyll_protoplast_fusion_device.escad
20:53 < kanzure> i see that there's a divide by two in here, so freecad and cadquery are likely to crash
20:53 < nmz787> all input comes from the very end statement
20:54 < nmz787> ha
20:54 < nmz787> this hasn't crashed on me, but it doesn't do syntax error alerting well
20:54 < kragen> sheena2: that one says 300μs
20:54 < kanzure> i wish i was joking
20:54 < sheena2> smaller is better, right kragen?
20:54 < nmz787> sometimes stuff just won't appear in the rendering, and you have to go back and try to find where you missed an argument or a comma
20:55 < nmz787> I wonder though if sublime_text syntax highlighting could catch that and alert with the coloring.. hrmm
20:56 < kanzure> implicitcad isn't a library?
20:56 < kanzure> what the hell is wrong with this planet
20:57 < nmz787> I think so
20:57 < nmz787> I am not sure though, it is haskell which is totally out of my comfort zone
20:58 < kanzure> i would be very surprised if haskell compilers don't give you syntax errors
20:58 < nmz787> and that file is some format they wrote defined here https://github.com/colah/ImplicitCAD/tree/318d96a8244279c4c2023dd6d4b16aebc96e45cf/Graphics/Implicit/ExtOpenScad
20:58 < kanzure> ah so this is not compiled by haskell
20:58 < kanzure> yeah i would recommend not using this
20:58 < kanzure> just use implicitcad
20:58 < nmz787> hmm?
20:59 < nmz787> wait I am using implicitcad
20:59 < kanzure> this extopenscad stuff is crap, ignore it
20:59 < nmz787> that is the interface that I'm using
20:59 < nmz787> it's what their 'getting started' or whatever is in
20:59 < kanzure> i am sorry that people suck but they lied to you
20:59 < nmz787> it doesn't crash
20:59 < nmz787> :)
20:59 < kanzure> silently failing on syntax errors is wrong
21:00 < sheena2> http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/welding-tip-nozzle-gel-0588154p.html#.VKDfEKIsCA should i buy this/
21:00 < nmz787> well I've been able to get further with it than the other ones
21:00 < kragen> sheena2: I assume smaller is better, but what I don't know is whether other things are maybe more important
21:00 < kanzure> and creating new languages for cad is also wrong
21:00 < sheena2> kragen: there is a canadian certification that is required here
21:00 < sheena2> and it seems like anything that meets that is unlikely to be dangerous if used correctly
21:00 < nmz787> i am not sure but it may be backwards compatible with openSCAD syntax
21:00 < kragen> yay government
21:00 < kragen> I can't make any such assumptions about Argentina :)
21:01 < kragen> I didn't know welding nozzle gel existed so I am probably not the right person to ask :)
21:02 < nmz787> kanzure: I imagine syntax issues relates to lexing though, less than CAD operations
21:02 < kanzure> yes.... so therefore don'[t make a new language for cad operations
21:02 < kanzure> cad is hard enough as it is
21:03 < kanzure> you don't need to also take on problems related to languages, grammar, lexing, etc
21:04 < nmz787> ok I am up to port it, I have freecad with cadquery, and heekscad installed too
21:04 < nmz787> I don't have openSCAD installed
21:04 < kanzure> when i used cadquery the renderings failed when i needed to divide or use fractional values
21:04 < kanzure> so i assume the same happens with freecad
21:04 < nmz787> ok
21:05 < kanzure> verbnurbs is probably okay, but it doesn't have many export formats at the moment
21:05 < nmz787> so then what is going to be better than implicitcad at this point?
21:05 < sheena2> kragen: i appreciate your help very much. so much to decide!
21:05 < kanzure> (implementing stl export would be pretty easy)
21:05 < kanzure> i think using implicitcad itself would be okay
21:05 < kragen> sure! hope it's helpful for real :)
21:05 < kanzure> extopenscad is something else
21:05 < nmz787> syntax wasn't too horrible to deal with, but I also don't know if it supports multiple files for a given design (so i can have the components in a library, with their own tests)
21:05 < kragen> stl export is very easy once you have a mesh
21:05 < sheena2> http://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/-o-canada-variable-shade-auto-darkening-welding-helmet/A-p8475675e a patriotic one!!
21:05 < kragen> :
21:05 < kragen> :D
21:06 < nmz787> in fact their API was pretty comfy
21:06 < sheena2> http://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/lincoln-electric-premium-welding-gear-kit/A-p8578742e for $120 i could hve got a different welder (i dunno if its the same as mine or not) with a gloves and helmet.. but this is only 120 for a bunch of stuff!
21:06 < kanzure> http://i01.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v0/32245045337/American-eagle-font-b-personalized-b-font-painting-auto-darkening-font-b-welding-b-font-font.jpg
21:07 < nmz787> I could imagine writing some 'import/include' machinery for supporting multiple files, but I need to learn a helluva lot of haskell first I think
21:07 < kragen> sheena2: wow, we're really living in the future
21:07 < sheena2> kanzure: eagles are suh a weird thing in your country
21:07 < kanzure> haskell already has the ability to compile from multiple files
21:07 < nmz787> i mean the escad files
21:07 < kanzure> this is the advantage of using existing languages
21:07 < kragen> I mean Lincoln is not a Harbor Freight bargain-basement no-name vendor
21:08 < nmz787> I haven't discovered how to run things without using extopenscad yet
21:08 < kragen> oh, that doesn't include the welder itself
21:08 < kragen> duffel bag yes, jacket yes, camouflage cap yes (!?!), gloves yes, helmet yes, welder no
21:09 < sheena2> hah right
21:09 < sheena2> i already have the welder
21:09 < kragen> I guess the camouflage cap is in case you're welding in the jungle in Nam while Charlie is shooting at you?
21:09 < sheena2> welder was $200, welder with gloves and mask was $320
21:09 < nmz787> "Originally, ImplicitCAD was just a Haskell library. ExtOpenScad was
21:09 < nmz787> added because people were terrified of Haskell and there is a ton of
21:09 < nmz787> existing OpenSCAD code. "
21:09 < kragen> because that sounds like it wouldn't be a very smart idea anyway
21:09 < sheena2> i think it makes you feel like a bigger man? lol
21:09 < kragen> haha
21:10 < nmz787> "The Haskell API is kind of crude, but I certainly think it could be a very nice way to design objects. And if we make it easy to integrate Haskell/extopenscad code, perhaps some people will switch to Haskell. Frameworks are known to drive adoption."
21:10 < nmz787> "But I think extopenscad is essential for us to get initial adoption."
21:10 < kanzure> "we shitted all over our principles just to attract users and lie to them"
21:10 < kragen> if we start discussing issues of gender performativity in here poor kanzure is likely to have another apoplectic fit that we're talking about things he doesn't understand :)
21:10 < kanzure> sheena2: this was that boy from okcupid
21:10 < sheena2> http://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/lincoln-electric-welding-gear-kit/A-p8454654e this one is a bit different.. i dunno maybe just not camo? lol
21:11 < kanzure> chris olah
21:11 < nmz787> well good think I don't know openSCAD, but bad thing they don't have any native examples that I would have spent the last day coding with :/
21:11 < sheena2> kanzure: you lost e
21:11 < sheena2> ooh
21:11 < sheena2> chris olah is.. having a fit?
21:11 < sheena2> i am now confused
21:11 < kanzure> nmz787 is using chris olah software
21:11 < kanzure> that is what we are talking about
21:11 < kragen> yeah, sounds like it, sheena2
21:11 < sheena2> oh fancy
21:12 < nmz787> what does that mean kanzure ?
21:12 < kanzure> chris olah is a person, nmz787
21:12 < kanzure> sheena2 met chris and then we found out that i also knew of him
21:12 < nmz787> I mean is that good or bad?
21:12 < kanzure> it's just context
21:12 < nmz787> ok
21:12 < kanzure> probably good, though
21:13 < kanzure> you should consider using haskell
21:13 < kanzure> i wouldn't recommend using implicitcad if you are not using haskell
21:13 < sheena2> chris is from my country, i think
21:13 < sheena2> i forget
21:13 < sheena2> ..
21:13 < kanzure> haha
21:13 < kanzure> yes
21:14 < kanzure> oh yeah i think andytoshi is near you at the moment
21:14 < kanzure> andytoshi: still near vancouver?
21:16 < kanzure> nmz787: try verbnurbs, if you don't like that then consider using haskell directly, and if not that then fallback to python + cadquery but be prepared to chase bugs through this mess http://diyhpl.us/wiki/cad/opencascade/ and then a looong distant option is openscad
21:16 < sheena2> anyone dealt with scabies?
21:17 < kragen> when I hung out with Berkeley students a lot, Lothlorien had a scabies infestation
21:17 < kanzure> human scabies?
21:17 < nmz787> kanzure: does verbnurbs have any export options though?
21:17 < sheena2> yeah
21:17 < sheena2> google says theyr use ivermectin in people
21:17 < kanzure> nmz787: stl is very very easy to implement
21:17 < kragen> Loth is one of the student housing co-ops, and it's one where the residents have a tendency to sit around naked in the common areas a lot
21:17 < sheena2> which is one of the drugs we use in dogs
21:18 < kragen> it took them a while to get all the scabies out of all the furniture
21:18 < kragen> but fortunately that's my closest brush with scabies
21:18 < nmz787> kanzure: does that include how fine the mesh ends up? i.e. how choppy/chunky it will be?
21:20 < kanzure> he may have written a function for tessellation fidelity(?) resolution(?) idk
21:20 < kanzure> https://github.com/pboyer/verb/blob/master/src/eval/tessellate.js
21:21 < kragen> nmz787: my own STL export code is in this ten-line function: https://github.com/kragen/stl3dpy/blob/master/stl3d.py#L68
21:22 < kanzure> such code
21:23 < kragen> the project as a whole is kindof embarrassing but whatever
21:23 < kanzure> ah i didn't see your extrude function previously
21:26 < nmz787> hrmm
21:26 < sheena2> scabies dies in about 72 hours without humans
21:26 < sheena2> so you can just leave the room empty for a few days
21:26 < sheena2> selamectin is the best drug in dogs, but isnt used in people. any idea how to figure out the dose/if its safe?
21:28 < kanzure> .wik selamectin
21:28 < yoleaux> "Selamectin (trade names Revolution, Stronghold) is a topical parasiticide and antihelminthic used on dogs and cats, distributed by Zoetis, a former Pfizer subsidiary." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selamectin
21:28 < nmz787> do you have any experience using verb? should I clone the github repo then try using npm (i don't know what that is)
21:28 < kanzure> .g site:igem.org selamectin
21:28 < yoleaux> No results found.
21:28 < sheena2> thats he one
21:28 < sheena2> 6mg/kg in dogs
21:29 < kanzure> someone should do an igem project on that... get some engineered bacteria to start killing scabies.
21:29 < sheena2> indeed
21:29 < kanzure> nmz787: npm is just node's package manager
21:29 < sheena2> .g site:igem.org sarcoptes
21:29 < yoleaux> No results found.
21:30 < kragen> kanzure: I kind of think that the extrude function in http://canonical.org/~kragen/sw/torus is actually better
21:30 < kanzure> here's one where they secreted mosquito larvae pesticides http://2010.igem.org/Team:NCTU_Formosa/Abstract
21:30 < nmz787> kanzure: so you haven't actually fired verb up yourself, only saw the static images online?
21:30 < kanzure> oh, yes, i haven't used verb yet
21:31 < kanzure> but, if i had to, i would probably `npm install .` and then `verb = require('verb');` in some .js file
21:32 < kanzure> i don't know if he has made any cad primitives yet
21:32 < kanzure> basically if you want the quickest route to seeing cad objects on your screen, openscad is your only solution, but it is also the worst possible long-term solution
21:32 < nmz787> npm install gives me a bunch of 304s
21:32 < nmz787> I just installed from apt-get
21:32 < kanzure> you installed what from apt-get?
21:32 < kragen> 304 Not Modified?
21:33 < nmz787> kanzure: well in terms of stuff on screen, implicitcad has got me there already
21:33 < kragen> openscad is pretty great as far as it goes but that isn't very far
21:33 < nmz787> installed npm
21:33 < kanzure> you're not really using implicitcad right now
21:36 < kanzure> sorry cad sucks so much
21:36 < kanzure> writing a cad kernel is tough work
21:36 < nmz787> kragen: I had to do this to get past the weird errors sudo npm install n -g; sudo n stable
21:36 < kanzure> i think verbnurbs is on the right direction
21:36 < kanzure> what is "n"
21:36 < nmz787> no idea
21:36 < nmz787> from some stackoverflow
21:36 < kanzure> why are you.. what..
21:36 < sheena2> "Transfer of selamectin across human skin has been evaluated in in vitro models. These studies show that a very small amount of selamectin is transferred across human skin. Further analysis to predict user safety was conducted assuming a worst case scenario. Results of this analysis suggests that, if the entire 2 ml dose was spilled onto the skin and was not washed off, the amount absorbed would be 279 times less than the dose which showed no effect in r
21:37 < nmz787> kanzure: following this is giving errors https://github.com/pboyer/verb#getting-started
21:37 < nmz787> from the cloned repo dir
21:38 < nmz787> says grunt doesn't exist
21:38 < kanzure> npm --version
21:38 -!- shubhamg_ [~shubhamgo@118.189.209.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:39 < nmz787> 1.4.28
21:39 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-182-230.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:39 < kanzure> sudo npm install -g npm
21:40 < kanzure> sudo npm install .
21:40 < nmz787> someone online says sudo npm install -g grunt-cli
21:40 < kanzure> ./node_modules/bin/grunt
21:40 < kanzure> sigh
21:40 < kanzure> they skipped ahead
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21:40 < nmz787> ok, seemed to build verb now
21:40 < kanzure> they should have first determined whether or not you were using an old version of npm
21:40 < kanzure> and they didn't because people are awful
21:41 < nmz787> ok i upgraded npm
21:42 < kanzure> my point was only that upgrading npm might make his instructions work
21:42 < kanzure> rather than trying to install extra stuff
21:43 < kanzure> i dunno what grunt-cli is
21:43 < kanzure> and i don't know why pboyer assumes that "npm install" will also globally install grunt, that is wrong of him
21:43 < kanzure> if anything it will be installed into ./node_modules/bin/
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22:44 < delinquentme> any ideas on the state of the art in piezo actuation?  speed and accuracy are the aspectes im after
22:49 < nmz787> kanzure: "ImplicitCAD is around four thousand lines of code, and two thousand lines of comments and blanks."
22:51 < nmz787> delinquentme: maybe these folks http://www.newscaletech.com/
22:52 < nmz787> specifically http://www.newscaletech.com/technology/squiggle-motors.php
22:53 < nmz787> idk how representative of the entire piezo actuation field that is though
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23:03 < maaku> is there anyone here working on a kinematic self-replicating machine?
23:05 < sheena2> paperbot http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15148100
23:05 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1001%2Farchderm.140.5.563
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23:08 < sheena2> "Mites were considered
23:08 < sheena2> dead if their appendages did not move when prodded with a pin."
23:08 < sheena2> lovely
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23:40 < fenn> "If they did this in a movie, I'd be like 'yeah, suuure you can do that..'" http://www.windytan.com/2014/02/mystery-signal-from-helicopter.html
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23:46 < sheena2> scabies gene discovery project http://cmr.asm.org/content/20/2/268.full#ref-44
--- Log closed Mon Dec 29 00:00:06 2014