--- Log opened Mon Jan 19 00:00:28 2015
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02:03 < nmz787> some notes I started to jot down, not much but I spent 4 hours or so just on playing with ffmpeg and imagemagick and something called gifsicle to see how small I could get the animation http://brlcad.org/wiki/User:Nmz787-brlcad
02:06 < nmz787> .tell fenn: you might compare that animated GIF (600kB) to this MP4 (was 1MB when I uploaded it) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyrNamrEJGM (vid is 2X resolution, or was originally). I tried a lot but couldn't manage to get the filesize of the either formats any smaller with good enough quality (for the resolution it seems H264 beats whatever GIF stuff I tried). For the colors though (4 was what I was casting the GIF as) it seems the animation ...
02:06 < yoleaux> nmz787: What kind of a name is "fenn:"?!
02:06 < nmz787> ... could be smaller, but idk.
02:06 < nmz787> .tell fenn you might compare that animated GIF (600kB) to this MP4 (was 1MB when I uploaded it) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyrNamrEJGM (vid is 2X resolution, or was originally). I tried a lot but couldn't manage to get the filesize of the either formats any smaller with good enough quality (for the resolution it seems H264 beats whatever GIF stuff I tried). For the colors though (4 was what I was casting the GIF as) it seems the animation ...
02:06 < yoleaux> nmz787: I'll pass your message to fenn.
02:06 < nmz787> ... could be smaller, but idk.
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02:07 < nmz787> chris_99: http://brlcad.org/wiki/User:Nmz787-brlcad
02:07  * nmz787 sleeps
02:08 < chris_99> cool
02:10 < fenn> what kind of a name is fenn!
02:10 < yoleaux> 10:06Z <nmz787> fenn: you might compare that animated GIF (600kB) to this MP4 (was 1MB when I uploaded it) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyrNamrEJGM (vid is 2X resolution, or was originally). I tried a lot but couldn't manage to get the filesize of the either formats any smaller with good enough quality (for the resolution it seems H264 beats whatever GIF stuff I tried). For the colors though (4 was what I was casting the GIF as …
02:10 < yoleaux> ) it seems the animation ...
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03:45 < fenn> nmz787: the gif looks bad because of mp4 compression artifacts. try screen capturing without compression and do gif conversion without dithering
03:45 < fenn> also they look the same resolution to me
03:47 < fenn> also better not to scale down the video because that causes antialiasing which gif format doesn't like
03:48 < fenn> also see convert argument -fuzz (if you're using convert that is)
03:50 < fenn> you shouldn't need to change the number of colors for something like this
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05:06 < kanzure> "If Biocentrism is refuted, that is, if we find a primitive extraterrestrial lifeform, we will still hold to Intellicentrism and be proud to be the only and most intelligent species in the universe. The psychological and philosophical consequences of refuting Intellicentrism are much more radical and disrupting than those of refuting Biocentrism. Finding an extraterrestrial bacterium is indeed very different from finding advanced ...
05:06 < kanzure> ... civilizations two billion years older than us."
05:06 < kanzure> "How will the accelerating change we experience end up in thousands, millions or billions of years? An answer to this fascinating question could come if we find advanced ETI. Indeed, our cosmic cousins might give us a glimpse of our possible future on astronomical timescales (see e.g. Kardashev 1978). Such a search also makes sense scientifically, since, if ETIs exist, they are arguably much more advanced than us. "
05:07 < kanzure> "A more concrete scientific application of black hole technology is to use them as telescopes or communication devices. How is it possible? An established consequence of general relativity theory is that light is bended by massive objects. This is known as gravitational lensing. For a few decades, researchers have proposed to use the Sun as a gravitational lens (see e.g. Von Eshleman 1979; Drake 1988). At 22.45AU and 29.59AU we have a ...
05:07 < kanzure> ... focus for gravitational waves and neutrinos. Starting from 550AU, electromagnetic waves converge. Those focus regions offer one of the greatest opportunity for astronomy and astrophysics, offering gains from 2 to 9 orders of magnitude compared to Earth-based telescopes. Over the years, Claudio Maccone (2009) has detailed with great technical precision such a scientific mission, called FOCAL. It is also worth noting that such ...
05:07 < kanzure> ... gravitational lensing could be used not only for observation, but also for communication. If we want to continue and improve our quest for understanding the cosmos, this mission is a great opportunity to complete our fuzzy astronomy with a focused one. In other words, the time may be ripe to put on our cosmic glasses and to use cosmic loudspeakers."
05:08 < kanzure> haha 9 orders of magnitude
05:09 < kanzure> "But other ETIs may already have binoculars. Indeed, it is easy to extrapolate the maximal capacity of gravitational lensing using instead of the Sun a much more massive object, i.e. a neutron star or a black hole. This would probably constitute the most powerful possible telescope. This possibility was envisioned –yet not developed– by Von Eshleman in (1991). Recently, Claudio Maccone (2012) studied the gravitational lensing ...
05:09 < kanzure> ... potential of supermassive black holes, and showed that even intergalactic communication would be feasible thanks to them. He writes (Maccone 2012, 119–120) that: ``this line of thought clearly shows that the central massive black hole of every galaxy is by far the most important ‘‘resource’’ of that galaxy for SETI purposes. In fact, it is like the ‘‘central radio station’’ of that galaxy that every civilization ...
05:09 < kanzure> ... living in that galaxy would like to control in order to keep in touch with other aliens living in nearby galaxies.``"
05:09 < kanzure> "Since objects observed by gravitational lensing must be aligned, we can imagine an additional dilating and contracting focal sphere or artificial swarm around a black hole, thereby observing the universe in all directions and depths. Maybe such focal spheres are already in operation. The gains offered by such devices are largely unknown, but this is an exciting topic for an open minded researcher or a PhD student in general relativity."
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05:11 < superkuh> The same can be said for suns.
05:12 < superkuh> Oh. It was Maccone. So he knows.
05:18 < kanzure> bitcoin-relevant comic ("genuine virtual leather") http://i.imgur.com/zgDo2Fs.png
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05:53 < cluckj> kanzure, I think the terminology is a bit over my head in that pdf
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05:54 < ebowden_> Oh, hey cluckj.
05:54 < cluckj> setting up a natural/artificial dichotomy is a problem though
05:54 < cluckj> hi
05:54 < ebowden_> How goes that dissertation on amateur scientists?
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05:54 < kanzure> cluckj: i think it was destructing that dichotomy?
05:54 < cluckj> kanzure, nm it looks like they see that too
05:55 < kanzure> got it
05:55 < cluckj> yeah I just read further
05:55 < kanzure> it is an interesting position for them to propose
05:55 < cluckj> ebowden_, fairly to moderately fucked up at this point
05:55 < ebowden_> cluckj, why?
05:55 < cluckj> infant care :)
05:55 < kanzure> the principle of preferring simpler solutions would definitely not have you wondering whether or not stars are alien civilizations, but really you have no idea (your star is an alien civilization, so why would the others not be?)
05:56 < cluckj> yes
05:56 < ebowden_> cluckj, what will happen to your academic career?
05:56 < kanzure> i'm not really ure what to call that sort of observational retort to occam's razor
05:56 < cluckj> ebowden_, I'm on paternity leave...so hopefully nothing
05:56 < kanzure> *sure
05:56 < kanzure> haha paternity leave is a myth
05:56 < ebowden_> Ah, ok.
05:56 < cluckj> kanzure, maybe "occam's razor is not a sound scientific principle"
05:56 < ebowden_> Kanzure, ?
05:57 < cluckj> also no shit, my committee expects me to be working while on leave
05:57 < ebowden_> God damn.
05:57 < kanzure> cluckj: i forget what i was reading, but there was a good suggestion someone had like "occam's razor is fine as long as you also prefer solutions that explain the most observations as well"
05:57 < cluckj> we're moving to philadelphia to be closer to our families, and hopefully the extra social support will let me get some work done while my partner is working
05:58 < cluckj> lol
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05:58 < cluckj> kanzure, why not just prefer the solutions that explain the most observations, regardless of complexity?
05:58 < ebowden_> cluckj, I've gotten $115 000 in scholarships to go to the University of Melbourne, the #1 ranked university in Australia.
05:59 < cluckj> I don't agree with the fetishizing of simplicity that occam's razor produces
05:59 < cluckj> occam's razor works great for bounded things, but rarely is anything that closed-off
05:59 < cluckj> ebowden_, wow, congrats!
06:00 < cluckj> paying nothing for your education is what's hot on the streets now :)
06:00 < ebowden_> I couldn't have done it without my Autism memory. :D
06:00 < cluckj> haha
06:00 < cluckj> fuck neurotypicals!
06:00 < ebowden_> I can recall almost everything I've seen in the last couple of days, and I accidentally memorised my brother's PIN.
06:01 < ebowden_> I felt bad and gave him my PIN.
06:01 < cluckj> lol
06:01 < cluckj> kanzure, okay that chapter took a pretty good turn with the Zen SETI and mentioning systems theory
06:02 < ebowden_> I can't wait to pet all those dogs in Melbourne.
06:03 < ebowden_> I really want to see a Basset Hound. I would play with those ears.
06:03 < ebowden_> They have a lot of ear.
06:03 < cluckj> those are pretty sweet dogs
06:04 < kanzure> cluckj: yeah, this is why i showed you it :p
06:04 < cluckj> haha
06:04 < kanzure> "zen seti" is a bad name though :(
06:04 < cluckj> aw yiss complexity
06:04 < ebowden_> One mathematician I know said they had two moods: excited and happy.
06:04 < kanzure> he was lying to get into your pants, ebowden_
06:04 < ebowden_> LOL
06:04 < cluckj> lol
06:05 < kanzure> cluckj: so the paper presents an interesting problem about how to separate alien civilizations from other astrophysical phenomena
06:06 < ebowden_> Believe me, very few people would try and get in my pants. My ASD is not exactly hard to spot, and I'm not the most attractive specimen.
06:06 < kanzure> i suspect that incorporating some alien-caused astrophysical phenomena could cause us to try to incorporate that as an astrophysical observation
06:06 < kanzure> if all stars in the universe are teeming with old alien life then we are screwed on that front
06:06 < cluckj> yeah
06:06 < kanzure> although if the majority are not teeming with life then we have a chance because of large-scale statistical surveys of stellar phenomena
06:06 < cluckj> yes...we already have tons of data
06:07 < cluckj> the thing is also that we've only started getting good at finding planets (turns out there are a lot of them)
06:07 < kanzure> that author's analogy about a river was a little troubling though (i don't know if it was in that section)
06:07 < kanzure> regarding "things like to hang out in natural energy gradients anyway", which doesn't offer any observational criteria
06:07 < kanzure> planetcentricism is boring
06:08 < kanzure> nobody wants to live on planets
06:08 < kanzure> it's a terrible idea
06:08 < cluckj> I like my planet, it's where I keep all my stuff
06:08 < kanzure> not for long
06:09 < cluckj> kanzure, looking for conditions that produced life on Earth is kinda the thing we do
06:09 < cluckj> since we haven't found any life that exists outside of our biosphere, we have literally no idea what any other life looks like
06:09 < ebowden_> http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/28157_895.jpg
06:09 < cluckj> hahahaha
06:10 < cluckj> kanzure, abstracting the search for life from "places that have conditions exactly the same as on Earth" to "places with natural energy gradients" is probably a good start
06:11 < kanzure> if you continue reading he offers some evidence that some binary stars are likely consuming stars
06:11 < cluckj> nice
06:12 < kanzure> or maybe that was the previous section (9.3?)
06:13 < cluckj> ooo ilya prigogine citation
06:14 < kanzure> he definitely hits the right names.. he's like a less annoying version of john smart.
06:16 < cluckj> hits the right citations and uses them in a productive way
06:17 < cluckj> "I love this topic, but it stretches my brain beyond its capabilities"
06:17 < cluckj> yep
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06:27 < kanzure> interstellar bacteria and coal http://arxiv.org/pdf/1112.3937.pdf
06:29 < eudoxia> kanzure: why the sudden interest in space stuff
06:30 < kanzure> not a sudden interest
06:32 < kanzure> if you mean why am i quoting interesting things, the primary reason is because extropy-chat was saying some strange things, and i remembered that someone tipped me off to black hole skeptics, so i went searching for papers written on black hole skepticism
06:32 < kanzure> i have found at least one skeptic of black hole singularities, but not any skeptic of black holes entirely :|
06:34 < cluckj> he's moving up his plans to be a space-based planetary intelligence
06:36 < kanzure> also, the quotes from clement vidal are interesting because they are somewhat unique interpretations of previous important stuff
06:36 < kanzure> or rather, not just unique, but correct
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07:04 < JayDugger> :)
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09:42 < p42___> What was that game called where they hook two people up to EEG and see which one can calm their brain down faster/better? meditation wars or something?
09:43 < p42___> ah. found. http://www.gofundme.com/93jdlg
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10:04 < kanzure> http://benclinkinbeard.com/posts/how-browserify-works/
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11:53 < delinquentme> who gud at fizix?
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13:26 < justanotheruser> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmp9MXBbY_8
13:26 < yoleaux> [ASMR HD] Guinea pigs crunching a red bell pepper ᶘ ᵒᴥᵒᶅ - YouTube
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13:38 < heath> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFe9wiDfb0E
13:38 < yoleaux> Welcome to Life: the singularity, ruined by lawyers - YouTube
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13:48 < kanzure> 13:47 < op_mul> kanzure: the categories are pretty damning. he also made his own mushroom farm to bootstrap the site.
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14:42 < kanzure> genehacker: here is some black hole stuff http://arxiv.org/pdf/1104.4362.pdf
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15:13 < ParahSailin> i saw a game like that at a sens conference
15:14 < kanzure> "exhibit G: ross ulbricht talking like a pirate on the internet"
15:14 < kanzure> should have been exhibit R
15:14 < kanzure> (sbp made the exhibit R observation)
15:20 < kanzure> http://www.scribd.com/doc/253100323/154-1United-States-v-Ross-William-Ulbricht-14-Cr-68
15:20 < kanzure> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2sz298/united_states_vs_ross_william_ulbricht_us/
15:45 < jrayhawk> "Man DPR had rubbish opsec" well, that should've been obvious from the .php extension
15:59 < kanzure> jrayhawk: what about mounting your monitors in front of this http://www.findarcademachines.com/images2/fzero.jpg
16:00 < genehacker> damn, why haven't I done that with my desk yet?
16:00 < genehacker> it's all 80/20, and I need ideas
16:00 < genehacker> crazy ideas
16:00 < kanzure> http://www.omgwallhack.org/home/jrayhawk/img/hovel/20120512_008.jpg
16:01 < jrayhawk> findarcademachines.com has very dumb user agent restrictions
16:01 < justanotheruser> http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/014/532/1374796030634.png
16:01 < jrayhawk> that fzero thing is way too small
16:01 < kanzure> right
16:02 < jrayhawk> if ever i switch over to LCDs, the hog panel idea is an okay one
16:02 < kanzure> genehacker: a few days ago i was telling jrayhawk to use chainlink fence
16:02 < kanzure> er, right, we ended up on hog paneling
16:02 < kanzure> and cast iron balconies
16:03 < jrayhawk> http://www.omgwallhack.org/home/jrayhawk/img/hovel/20140725_003.jpg is the modern setup
16:03 < superkuh> Huh. Looks like my old room.
16:04 < superkuh> Very nice.
16:05 < jrayhawk> my G220FB and one of my PCI Express card->1x adapters died
16:05 < jrayhawk> makes me sad
16:05 < superkuh> http://i.imgur.com/CO4kA.jpg
16:05 < kanzure> http://i.imgur.com/dHurUjF.jpg
16:05 < kanzure> damn it
16:05 < superkuh> The one you linked was upstairs from the one I linked.
16:06 < jrayhawk> hey that's like what i had in highschool
16:06 < genehacker> I don't think my desk can support CRTs
16:06 < jrayhawk> http://www.omgwallhack.org/home/jrayhawk/img/hovel/2004/IMG_0699.JPG
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16:06 < justanotheruser> do you guys actually like that?
16:06 < jrayhawk> like having pixels?
16:06 < jrayhawk> yes
16:07 < superkuh> These days I have 4x LCD that span my entire horizontal view. I could use more though.
16:07 < justanotheruser> If you're going to set up 100 interconnected pieces of hardware, why not buy some shelves and desks to manage it
16:07 < justanotheruser> that last pic is okay
16:07 < jrayhawk> that said one $600 QHD screen could replace like six of those things
16:07 < genehacker> it's the "let's stuff as many grad students in a room until we're barely in compliance with fire code" special
16:07 < genehacker> except that it violates firecode
16:08 < kanzure> no time for firecode man
16:08 < kanzure> live dangerously. with pixels.
16:08 < superkuh> Yeah. I got kicked out of the room I linked because I of the city inspector saying it didn't pass firecode.
16:08 < superkuh> No big enough windows to escape.
16:08 < nmz787_i> until your powerstrip is on fire
16:08 < kanzure> allegedly on fire.
16:10 < kanzure> man, i just found an old scifi notebook from when i was trapped in middle school for like 100 years
16:10 < kanzure> "fucking masers, how the fuck do they work? fuck"
16:10 < kanzure> sucks without internet
16:10 < nmz787_i> sounds like real science
16:10 < nmz787_i> and you thought it was fiction!
16:10 < kanzure> i am very picky with my scifi
16:10 < kanzure> in fact i am now so picky that i don't read any at all
16:11 < kanzure> (maybe greg egan)
16:11 < ParahSailin> i read that one with the vampires, but only because the whole thing was there on a website in one page
16:11 < superkuh> I'm half way through the third book of Egan's "Orthogonal" series right now. It is refreshingly good after slogging through the mess that was Gibson's "The Peripheral".
16:12 < p42___> Iain m banks for me today
16:12 < kanzure> nmz787_i: oops, to be more clear, i mean i am picky about hard scifi
16:12 < kanzure> (ftl is a huge bore and better not be overused)
16:13 < nmz787_i> I'd watch sci-comedy, I guess it would be better than 'Spaceballs'
16:13 < genehacker> masers work just like lasers, except the frequency of radiation involved is in the microwave spectrum
16:14 < nmz787_i> that was sci-sarcasm
16:14 < genehacker> perhaps you should reread some vernor vinge
16:15 < nmz787_i> anyone in here ever watch the old TV show 'Amos & Andy'?
16:15 < genehacker> turings cathedral is pretty good, do you know they used to do CFD with rooms of people?
16:15 < nmz787_i> they had a few sci-comedy skits, I guess
16:16 < genehacker> futurama is pretty good sci-fi comedy, except it's probably dead now
16:16 < nmz787_i> yeah that is a good one
16:16 < genehacker> it is a trivial answer though
16:17 < nmz787_i> "First they splits the atoms into monocles. Then they splits the monocles into morons, protons, and fig newtons."
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16:22 < nmz787_i> hahah here is when that part of the sketch starts https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrFiKcBdCx8#t=654
16:23 < nmz787_i> 'bubblin at 100 degrees centipede'
16:23 < kanzure> genehacker: sheena would like a design for a canned cheese dog helmet
16:26 -!- AmbulatoryCortex [~Ambulator@173-31-9-188.client.mchsi.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:31 < genehacker> why?
16:32 < nmz787_i> hmm, that episode is not the one where he mentions 'protons and morons'
16:32 -!- p42___ [~o@boole.london.hackspace.org.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
16:34 < sheena> genehacker: to deliver food rewards to the dog remotely and in a contained-on-the-dog portable way
16:36 < nmz787_i> what range?
16:36 < nmz787_i> bluetooth, wifi, cell phone?
16:36 < nmz787_i> the $5 wifi module I found last week can go up to 3 or 4 km with a parabolic antenna on the non-dog end
16:41 < kanzure> communication is not the problem
16:41 < nmz787_i> ah, ok, here is where the nuclear bit starts https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85mqfJ-aZCQ#t=757
16:41 < kanzure> and communication is not genehacker's specialty
16:41 < nmz787_i> then problem?
16:41 < nmz787_i> it surely doesn't need nanobots
16:41 < genehacker> you want it done with nanobots?
16:41 < kanzure> no
16:41 < genehacker> ok I'll do it
16:41 < kanzure> things like remote triggering of nozzle of canned cheese
16:42 < kanzure> e.g. which mechanism
16:42 < kanzure> and also, suitable helmet designs
16:42 < genehacker> hey I made a bluetooth controlled dog, I think I can communicate
16:42 < kanzure> i didn't say you can't communicate :p just that it's not your specialty
16:42 < genehacker> why not make bluetooth controlled cheese?
16:42 < kanzure> specifically how do you automate the canned cheese dispensing action
16:43 < genehacker> make the cheese photo responsive and shine a laser on it
16:43 < nmz787_i> a solenoid?
16:43 < kanzure> http://www.cheesewiki.com/system/images/2984/medium/istockphoto_598636-spray-cheese.jpg?1268294622
16:43 < nmz787_i> radiation, explode the can with EM
16:43 < kanzure> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-GibT2_yvG_w/Tswb1j3o8OI/AAAAAAAABOk/HmW_7OVP8cw/s640/DSCF0382.JPG
16:43 < nmz787_i> a heat ray could also pierce it
16:44 < kanzure> diagram http://s.hswstatic.com/gif/aerosol-can-2.gif
16:44 < kanzure> anyway normally you have to press it in a specific way
16:44 < kanzure> and ideally there's a simple way to press it using some motion that i'm not familiar with
16:44 < genehacker> photochromic molecules are used in some dyes, so we can probably make nanomachine cheese
16:44 < nmz787_i> seems like a BYJ48 could do the trick, add a level to the end of the shaft to press the nozzle (down or sideways could work)
16:45 < nmz787_i> s/level/lever/
16:45 < kanzure> why would a lever work?
16:45 < nmz787_i> that's how my finger actuates the cheese sprays
16:45 < kanzure> and also, how are you mounting the lever?
16:46 < genehacker> Sweet someone's made casein MOFs
16:46 < nmz787_i> idk some 3d-printed can-top snap-on thing
16:46 < genehacker> we can make cheese MOFs!
16:47 < kanzure> genehacker: this maybe of interest http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/Enzymatic%20protecting%20group%20techniques.pdf
16:47 < kanzure> *may be
16:47 < genehacker> hey you got any protein design papers?
16:47 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/protein-engineering/Design%20of%20protein%20function%20leaps%20by%20directed%20domain%20interface%20evolution.pdf
16:47 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/protein-engineering/Surface-tethered%20protein%20switches.pdf
16:47 < genehacker> any other like nanomachiney stuff?
16:48 < kanzure> more specific plz
16:48 < genehacker> like using rosetta to design proteins?
16:48 < nmz787_i> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-iewm_fiIM
16:48 < yoleaux> Arduino controlled spray can test - YouTube
16:48 < nmz787_i> solenoid
16:48 < kanzure> sheena: how about that?
16:49 < kanzure> wait, what is that moving?
16:49 < nmz787_i> solenoid
16:49 < kanzure> it's pressing on.. something?
16:49 < kanzure> i see a lid
16:49 < kanzure> i think it's in the background. i don't know what this is.
16:50 < kanzure> paperclip is pressing something... this is not how the spray cheese cans work.
16:50 < sheena> yep, baseically
16:50 < nmz787_i> this is a hack more off-the-shelf https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywDsvSyLPAE
16:50 < nmz787_i> using a bathroom smell thingy
16:50 < nmz787_i> kanzure: it's just pressing the nozzle
16:50 < kanzure> spray cheese can is also not a spray down
16:50 < kanzure> whoops press down
16:51 < nmz787_i> that is just the attack angle
16:51 < sheena> right. press sideways ish
16:51 < nmz787_i> you just rotate 90 degrees
16:51 < kanzure> in the first video, where do you see the nozzle? it looks under the cap to me
16:51 < nmz787_i> yes
16:51 < kanzure> okay. so it's not pressing the nozzle then.
16:51 < nmz787_i> but it is obv a press-down
16:51 < sheena> the air freshener thing is interesting
16:51 < nmz787_i> no one presses paint sprayers sideways
16:51 < sheena> cause you'd think it sort of already comes with a "pres release" mechanism?
16:51 < nmz787_i> that would not help aim
16:51 < nmz787_i> yep
16:51 < genehacker> just use the same mechanism used in graffiti bots
16:51 < nmz787_i> they just added the control wire
16:51 < kanzure> the canned cheese stuff is sideways-pressing.
16:52 < kanzure> but it's not really.. pressing..
16:52 < kanzure> oh canned cheese is something else
16:52 < sheena> graphiti bots?
16:53 < genehacker> or a servo
16:53 < kanzure> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvucTyrzCcI&t=50s
16:53 < kanzure> sheena: hanging robots with only two axises. use trigonometry to control location on blackboard/whiteboard/surface. grafiti bot.
16:53 < sheena> that said, there is no specific reason that it HAS to be easycheez
16:54 < sheena> some other dispenser could work
16:54 < kanzure> i thought it had to be easy cheeze because you couldn't find others
16:54 < nmz787_i> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqEeLP9TBtI
16:54 < nmz787_i> that is more a water sprayer type
16:54 < kanzure> haha rubber bands
16:54 < kanzure> welp okay
16:54 < kanzure> anyway the mount is also an issue
16:55 < kanzure> helmet mount i mean
16:55 < nmz787_i> another https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1G8g6APN1Y
16:55 < genehacker> http://www.appliedautonomy.com/images/gw_diagram2.gif
16:55 < genehacker> I was thinking something like this
16:55 < genehacker> yeah you need to be real careful with electrical stuff on dogs
16:56 < genehacker> dogs aren't gonna complain about stuff getting too hot or what not
16:56 < kanzure> right... get an arduino kit (or whatever you pick) with thermometers.
16:57 < nmz787_i> I doubt anything would get too hot
16:57 < sheena> yeah, and can jut put like, foam in betwen?
16:57 < nmz787_i> especially if you used a geared motor
16:58 < nmz787_i> geared motor could also help if the sprayer were to get stuck... you'd want to be able to force it to the 'home' position
16:58 < nmz787_i> while a solenoid might not have enough spring-back, idk
16:58 < kanzure> basically what you need is one of these for a dog http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/bella/BeerHelmet-001.jpg
16:58 < kanzure> except a more solid helmet frame
16:59 < kanzure> and also pointing the can in the right direction
16:59 < nmz787_i> or like this http://blackridgekennel.weebly.com/uploads/2/1/2/4/21244842/9152393_orig.jpg
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16:59 < sheena> under the neck is tricky
16:59 < sheena> its a toughs pot to mount because it tends to move a lot
16:59 < nmz787_i> except instead of booze/beer (or does it contain rootbeer normally in that little keg?) it would be cheese spray
17:00 < nmz787_i> heh, might also just get the dog all messy with cheese
17:00 < kanzure> cheese is for the dog, booze is for the humans the dog finds
17:00 < nmz787_i> the other dogs would be attacking/licking it
17:00 < nmz787_i> unless the dog is an alcoholic
17:00 < nmz787_i> heh
17:01 < genehacker> the dog will probably learn how to trigger the easy cheese mechanism without human  intervention
17:01 < kanzure> that's the point
17:01 < kanzure> human remotely triggers
17:02 < genehacker> notice I said without human intervention
17:02 < kanzure> destroy mechanism = human takes it away
17:02 < genehacker> as in rub mechanism against pole
17:03 < kanzure> this would be used during training sessions
17:03 < kanzure> with a person hanging around
17:04 < nmz787_i> well a metal/plastic cage around the can and top/mechanism could probably fix that
17:04 < nmz787_i> I am thinking a spray-paint can cap, but with a motor and circuit in it
17:05 < kanzure> (things like branches can get through the edge. dogs are smarter than me.)
17:05 < kanzure> s/edge/gaps
17:05 < kanzure> ah i see
17:05 < kanzure> yeah an additional plastic top could work, as long as it does not obstruct cheese flow
17:08 < nmz787_i> I think a custom spray top would be smart
17:08 < nmz787_i> that way sheena could just pull it off and pop it on a new can in a snap
17:08 < sheena> right
17:09 < sheena> yeah, something to protect the helmet from dispensing cheese to the dog would be useful
17:09 < sheena> and possibly, having the unit/can mount on the dog's back, with some sort of... dispenser tube ish? to the head?
17:10 < nmz787_i> would it shoot the cheese onto the ground, or would there be a nozzle wrapping around towards the mouth?
17:10 < kanzure> i don't think there would be enough pressure in the normal cans for that, you would have to make your own aerosolized cheese
17:11 < kanzure> i am saying the wrong thing
17:11 < kanzure> pretend i have said the right thing
17:12 < nmz787_i> I think the problem with it being mounted on the back would be pressure to push it through all the tubing, and also you have a lot of wasted cheese stuck in all that tubing when the can runs out (if it is OK pressure)
17:13 < kanzure> if you were really fucking crazy, you could have injection of cheese followed by air to push the cheese
17:13 < nmz787_i> why not have something that drops a kibble-or-bit?
17:13 < kanzure> but... pneumatics... and stuff.
17:13 < nmz787_i> surely corn is cheaper than fake-dairy
17:14 < justanotheruser> kragen: hello
17:17 < sheena> lol
17:17 < kanzure> now that i think about it, we should encourage sheena to make complex pneumatics because why not
17:17 < sheena> the idea of something lickable ist hat we can dispense it basically to the dog's mouth and they dont have to CATCH it/find it etc
17:17 < sheena> i have a stationary kibble-dropper thing already
17:18 < kanzure> for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-Ur-UamQS0
17:18 < kanzure> .title
17:18 < yoleaux> Pneumatic Driven Animatronic Dilophosaurus - YouTube
17:18 < justanotheruser> Following the scrollback is impossible in here
17:19 < kanzure> try reading in the other direction
17:19 < justanotheruser> I have to figure out where to start
17:19 < justanotheruser> It's O(N) either way
17:20 < kanzure> genehacker: yeah i guess i should find some better rational protein design papers... my collection sucks.
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17:21 < kragen> justanotheruser: hello
17:21 < justanotheruser> kragen: I heard you were the go to guy for mechanical computing
17:22 < genehacker> mechanical computing?
17:22 < genehacker> what do you want to do?
17:22 < kragen> no, I've never made any mechanical computing devices
17:22 < kanzure> faceface: do you know any particularly great reviews of rational protein design?
17:22 < justanotheruser> 11:43 < justanotheruser> Okay, so this is a bit of a crazy idea, but I want to mechanically evaluate a round of sha2. Has anyone here done any mechanical computing?
17:22 < kanzure> kragen is too modest
17:22 < justanotheruser> 11:46 < kanzure> bug kragenjaviersita
17:22 < justanotheruser> I don't know what javiersita is, but I assume thats you
17:23 < justanotheruser> I was thinking balls roll down and form a bit vector every inch going down and each inch an operation is performed on those balls
17:23 < justanotheruser> Bitshifts are easy. Xoring two values may be harder
17:23 < cluckj> eh heh heh twiddling balls
17:23 < justanotheruser> pls
17:23 < genehacker> so back when they where making the atomic bomb, to do shockwave simulations, they used a bunch of people operating IBM mechanical calculators
17:23 < genehacker> how many bits?
17:24 < justanotheruser> genehacker: sha256(sha256(an 80 byte value))
17:24 < kanzure> kragen out of all of us is probably the one who remembers the widest range of ridiculous ways to implement computing
17:24 < justanotheruser> I want to make a bitcoin mining ASIC that consumes no electricity
17:24 < kanzure> do you even know what energy is
17:25 < justanotheruser> sure
17:25 < kanzure> are you trying to avoid electrons entirely?
17:25 < justanotheruser> I didn't say it didn't use energy
17:25 < kanzure> can it use electrons?
17:25 < justanotheruser> It will probably have a motor, but I might be able to get around that
17:25 < justanotheruser> hand cranked asic
17:26 < genehacker> 80 bytes with marbles is %@!%##$@!$#!%$@!%@#%$ing huge
17:26 < kanzure> here you go http://www.adafruit.com/product/1462
17:26 < kanzure> .title
17:26 < yoleaux> Pocket Socket 2 - Hand-Crank Power Outlet ID: 1462 - $64.95 : Adafruit Industries, Unique & fun DIY electronics and kits
17:26 < justanotheruser> genehacker: is it really that big? 1/4 inch marbles * 80 * 8 = 160 inches of marbles,
17:26 < kragen> you can definitely do balls.  there are lots sof examples
17:26 < kanzure> 1 marble is not a byte
17:26 < kragen> on youtube
17:27 < justanotheruser> kragen: there are examples of bitwise operations on balls?
17:27 < kragen> yeah
17:27 < justanotheruser> I could only find addition
17:27 < genehacker> yeah, because you need more space than just a marble
17:27 < cluckj> why not use microfludics and water or something?
17:27 < kragen> that already gives you XOR and AND :)
17:27 < genehacker> yes
17:27 < genehacker> digicomp ii
17:27 < justanotheruser> genehacker: I also have more than 2 dimensions
17:27 < justanotheruser> cluckj: is that feasible
17:27 < cluckj> idk
17:27 < kragen> I think the best solution is probably a two-dimensional cam
17:27 < genehacker> http://l3d.cs.colorado.edu/~ctg/classes/ttt2003/constructionkits/marblelogic.pdf
17:28 < kanzure> you only need xor and not
17:28 < justanotheruser> genehacker: nice
17:28 < kanzure> actually i forget. i wish i could remember.
17:28 < justanotheruser> kanzure: but to save space it is nice to have others
17:28 < kragen> no, both xor and not are linear, kanzure
17:28 < kragen> so together they are not universal
17:28 < kanzure> which ones am i trying to remember?
17:28 < kragen> probably nand
17:28 < kanzure> fuck
17:28 < justanotheruser> genehacker: exactly what I'm looking for
17:28 < kragen> I mean there are a lot of minimal sets of gates
17:29 < kragen> the thing about marble logic is that it's unreliable and slow.
17:29 < genehacker> there's also leibniz's plans for a marble computer
17:29 < justanotheruser> o_o
17:30 < genehacker> *proposed marble computer
17:30 < justanotheruser> how many bits?
17:30 < genehacker> he proposed a shift register
17:30 < genehacker> and that's about it
17:30 < justanotheruser> oh
17:31 < kragen> let me tell you about cams
17:31 < justanotheruser> please do
17:31 < kragen> a typical cam gives you an arbitrary one-dimensional function of time
17:31 < kanzure> leibniz had a marble computer plan?
17:31 < justanotheruser> excuse my ignorance, what is a cam
17:32 < kanzure> cc nsh
17:32 < genehacker> http://history-computer.com/Dreamers/Leibniz.html
17:32 < kragen> first watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ux2KW20nqHU
17:32 < genehacker> why a barrel cam?
17:32 < genehacker> how are you going to use that for sha2?
17:32 < kragen> genehacker: barrel cam (or their non-cylindrical kin) give you fan-in of two arbitrary variables
17:33 < kragen> producing an arbitrary finite map
17:33 < genehacker> is that all you need for sha2?
17:33 < genehacker> a function of two variables?
17:33 < kragen> which is to say, a single barrel cam per output can emulate any combinational circuit
17:33 < genehacker> cams are also a bitch to design and machine
17:33 < justanotheruser> kragen: I see it but I don't understand it
17:33 < kanzure> https://github.com/rnz/verilog-sha256
17:34 < kragen> yes, they are
17:34 < kragen> you want to, as the Writer Automaton does, lift the follower and set it down once the cam is in the appropriate position
17:34 < kragen> so that it doesn't have to be a continuou function
17:34 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ux2KW20nqHU
17:34 < yoleaux> Jaquet Droz The Writer Automaton From 1774 In Action: Inspired Hugo Movie - YouTube
17:34 < kragen> that gets rid of most of the trickiness about cams
17:34 < justanotheruser> kragen: so basically it is a turing incomplete mechanical circuit?
17:35 < kragen> well, it's not just Turing-incomplete; it's memoryles
17:35 < genehacker> hey if the number of positions can be discretized it might be easier
17:35 < kragen> exactly!
17:35 < kragen> if you combine it with a memory element, you can get an arbitrary finite state machine
17:36 < justanotheruser> kragen: is this somehow less complex than the marble scheme?
17:36 < kragen> it's dramatically less moving parts
17:36 < genehacker> yeah, except now it's analog
17:36 < kragen> a single lookup table part can do a 4-bit output from two 4-bit input
17:36 < kragen> with an arbitrary truth table
17:36 < kragen> it's only analog until you discretize the number of positions!
17:36 < kragen> of course you need multiple layers of cams to fan-in more than two independent inputs
17:37 < genehacker> so how do you represent a number on a cam?
17:37 < justanotheruser> kragen: are you sure this is easier? It seems using mapping to solve sha256 would be difficult
17:38 < justanotheruser> I mean, xoring two 256 bit values together would have 256 separate maps (xor functions) Or each byte would have a map?
17:38 < kragen> genehacker: if you have 16 discrete positions in each of X and Y (or X and θ) and in Z (or R), each one can be considered to encode four bits
17:38 < kragen> I think probably each nibble
17:39 < kragen> although if you can get 256 reliably discrete levels in each dimension then you can do it per byte
17:40 < kragen> I mean you can just make a heightfield where Z = X ^ Y
17:40 < kragen> and it doesn't matter what its height is at places in between the integral X and Y points; you could drill 256 holes of varying depths in a block, say
17:41 < genehacker> well if you have 16 discrete y positions why not just 16 rolls of paper tape?
17:41 < justanotheruser> hmm
17:41 < kragen> so instead of 8 marbles zipping around on tracks and weighing down 4 levers, you have a single needle being pushed down into a single hole
17:42 < kragen> yeah, paper tape is totally applicable too, but you only get one bit of output per probe needle, of course
17:42 < kragen> instead of maybe 16 or 32
17:42 < justanotheruser> kragen: so you think it is less complex to have a mapping for 256 bits than to have >=256 marbles moving down?
17:42 < kragen> right
17:42 < genehacker> how about 1 however many bit you want paper tape reader that you move among tape rolls
17:43 < kragen> that doesn't give you much fan-in or -out
17:43 < kragen> justanotheruser: and you can make all the relevant motions positively forced, with stiff springs in some cases if you wish
17:43 < kragen> instead of relying on the very small weight of the marble
17:43 < kragen> and depending on potentially chaotic marble collisions
17:43 < justanotheruser> kragen: so when doing xor, you have a mapping for each bit pair for each of the 256 bits?
17:44 < justanotheruser> or 4-bit set?
17:44 < genehacker> it doesn't seem right that sha2 can be implemented with a big look up table
17:44 < justanotheruser> genehacker: that is what I'm concerned with. I think it would involve many small lookup tables.
17:44 < kragen> you need several layers of lookup tables with clocks moving data between them
17:44 < kragen> justanotheruser: http://youtu.be/s1i-dnAH9Y4?t=10m4s shows barrel cams
17:44 < justanotheruser> kragen: clocks?
17:45 < kragen> justanotheruser: yeah, like in a synchronous logic circuit
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17:45 < justanotheruser> kragen: interesting... so I can buy these and just put them together?
17:45 < kragen> no
17:46 < justanotheruser> Oh, I thought xor might be sold
17:46 < kragen> because you have to cut the cam
17:46 < justanotheruser> you think I could 3d print them?
17:46 < kragen> I think so, yes
17:46 < justanotheruser> hmm
17:46 < kragen> although I haven't been very successful at that yet :)
17:46 < justanotheruser> know anyone documenting a similar project?
17:46 < kragen> no
17:46 < justanotheruser> thats too bad
17:47 < justanotheruser> know of anyone documenting their design of a single cam that takes a few inputs?
17:48 < genehacker> well if you want to do it with air or water, you can buy fluidic logic gates
17:48 < justanotheruser> genehacker: those exist?
17:48 < kragen> can you?  Air Logic stopped listing them on their web site a few years back
17:48 < genehacker> damn? really?
17:48 < kragen> there used to even be fluidic integrated circuits in missile control
17:48 < justanotheruser> are they just for novelty?
17:48 < kragen> yeah :(
17:48 < kragen> no, they're rad-hard and vibration-proof
17:48 < kragen> and EMP-hard
17:49 < genehacker> or applications with weird requirements
17:49 < justanotheruser> interesting..
17:49 < genehacker> like spark sensitive stuff, or fountains
17:49 < kragen> also in the 1960s you could make fluidic logic ICs a lot more easily than semiconductor ICs
17:49 < genehacker> there's a patent for conway's game of life in a fountain
17:49 < kragen> yeah, and they don't spark
17:49 < kragen> really? cool!
17:50 < genehacker> http://www.google.com/patents/EP1851447A1?cl=en
17:51 < genehacker> oh wait this one
17:51 < genehacker> http://www.google.com/patents?id=2ZjRAAAAEBAJ
17:51 < kragen> but yeah, until about ten or fifteen years ago you could still even buy 1kHz gates with no moving parts from Air Logic
17:52 < genehacker> oh wow
17:52 < kanzure> .title
17:52 < yoleaux> Patent US7735749 - Display fountain, system, array and wind detector - Google Patents
17:52 < genehacker> I should see about making a really loud fluidic sound amplifier
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17:53 < kragen> I think one of those was used in a World's Fair in the 1950s or 60s
17:53 < kragen> I've heard rumors that fluidic pumping is used in nuclear power plants at times
17:54 < kragen> thus avoiding having moving parts in a place where there's too much radioactivity to replace them easily
17:57 < genehacker> it is, and I have a picture of the circuit they used, but can't figure out what type of amplifier they used
17:57 < genehacker> fluidic pumping is
17:57 < genehacker> and is supposedly part of the nuclear poisoning system for shut down
17:59 < kanzure> i also like laser-based pumping:
17:59 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/Whole%20Blood%20Pumped%20by%20Laser%20Driven%20Micropump.pdf
18:00 < kanzure> genehacker: btw it turns out that nobody has done lots of directed evolution microfluidic chips. nobody has done multi-generation mutation and mieosis.
18:01 < genehacker> neat
18:01 < kanzure> rather huge oversight
18:02 < kanzure> instead of doing rational protein design you can just make the cells figure it out
18:03 < genehacker> dammit
18:04 < genehacker> so evolution just works too
18:04 < genehacker> well, which is why I only get stuff from creationists when I google protein design
18:04 < genehacker> oh wait got it
18:05 < genehacker> http://catbert.cs.duke.edu/~brd/Teaching/Previous/Bio/Readings/mayo.pdf
18:08 < kragen> justanotheruser: there are lot of other possibilities out there
18:09 < kragen> Merkle wrote a thing about buckling-spring gates back in the 90s because people were complaining that rod logic was too dissipative
18:09 < kragen> so he came up with a reversible solid-state mechanical computing design
18:09 < kragen> basically a clocked (of course) majority-rule gate with three or more inputs, which can be constants
18:10 < justanotheruser> kragen: do you have some resource to read if I want to design a cam?
18:13 < genehacker> I don't get buckling logic
18:14 < genehacker> do you have to do some weird sequencing stuff?
18:14 < genehacker> http://books.google.com/books/about/Cam_Design_and_Manufacturing_Handbook.html?id=fK_Q3XNEpMAC
18:14 < justanotheruser> looking at that first video, I thought the cams were going to be super complex and impossibel to design, but that Navy video makes them look a bit simpler
18:14 < genehacker> cams are deceptively simple
18:16 < genehacker>  cam design for battleships:
18:16 < genehacker> http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=366850
18:18 < genehacker> battleship fire control mechanisms http://www.maritime.org/doc/op1140/
18:18 < genehacker> so kragen, how does buckling logic work?
18:19 < genehacker> do you have to use sequence the input in the opposite order to how it came in?
18:19 < kanzure> genehacker: do you have a particular rational protein design problem in mind?
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18:20 < genehacker> no
18:20 < genehacker> just looking at the approaches used
18:20 < kanzure> at the moment i am not aware of any fully general methods, only stuff like "steal residues from similar proteins" and "combinatorially try all possible mutants of these particular residues that you have already identified"
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18:20 < genehacker> just looking for stuff about designing nanomachines with computers
18:22 < genehacker> or other mechanical molecules
18:22 < kanzure> there are protein factories with multiple steps, http://www.pnas.org/content/101/44/15585/F1.large.jpg
18:22 < kanzure> (nonribosomal peptidyl synthetases)
18:23 < genehacker> were they designed by computers?
18:23 < kanzure> no, but they are modular and you can pick-and-choose the modules (steps)
18:23 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonribosomal_peptide
18:24 < kanzure> "These enzymes represent some of the largest proteins known, and, as a consequence of their multifunctional character, a single protein can catalyze dozens of discrete biochemical reactions. For example, the rapamycin PKS (3) and cyclosporin NRPS (4) catalyze 51 and 40 steps in assembly of their respective products." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC152231/
18:24 < justanotheruser> btw, while paperbots out of commission, I can help with most paper searches you can't find on libgen
18:27 < kanzure> genehacker: the sorts of rational protein design that works very well right now are the types involving binding affinity
18:29 < kragen> genehacker: sorry, on phone
18:29 < kragen> Merkle's article is great
18:32 < kanzure> 2d protein grids http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0958166913007015
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18:39 < kanzure> "The Victor library (Virtual Construction Toolkit for Proteins) is an open-source project dedicated to providing tools for analyzing and manipulating protein structures" http://protein.bio.unipd.it/victor/index.php/Main_Page
18:40 < kanzure> will cgi ever die http://protein.bio.unipd.it/victor/index.php/Applications
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18:57 < kanzure> .title http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00894-014-2067-1
18:57 < yoleaux> Parallel implementation of 3D protein structure similarity searches using a GPU and the CUDA - Springer
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19:41 < kanzure> it's too bad that the protein structure prediction people aren't attempting to go in the generative direction
19:41 < kanzure> also they should focus on subsets of protein structures that are easier to predict
19:41 < kanzure> if it is necessary to ban certain residues then they should just do that
19:49 < justanotheruser> kanzure: where do I go to find a paper if libgen doesn't have it and paperbot doesn't exist?
19:54 < nmz787> I can sometimes get things
19:54 < nmz787> there's also a facebook group, but i think they closed new memberships
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20:00 < kanzure> justanotheruser: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/articles/
20:02 < kanzure> http://www.binpress.com/blog/2014/07/29/binpress-podcast-episode-4-julian-lam-nodebb/
20:03 < nmz787> nice
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20:06 < kanzure> that was my scene in 2002
20:06 < kanzure> i was peddling my own forum software, raking in da cash
20:06 < kanzure> (it was a pile of sql injection vulnerabilities with a big giant smiley face painted over it basically)
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20:32 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23s9Wc3aWGY&feature=youtu.be&t=11m44s
20:32 < yoleaux> Slightly Advanced Python: Some Python Internals - YouTube
20:34 < justanotheruser> kanzure: oh no, sci-hub gave me a ! Ошибка при скачивании статьи
20:35 < kanzure> yeah she hates you because you don't donate
20:36 < justanotheruser> does paperbot use anything but libgen and if so, why isn't she here?
20:37 < kanzure> i was not talking about paperbot
20:38 < kanzure> but, as for paperbot, all of the information you need is in the source code. prior to nmz787's additions, it was not using ec2.
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20:42 < justanotheruser> woot, got it
20:43 < justanotheruser> when is your world wide database of files gonna be available?
20:43 < nmz787> as soon as people figure out living AI-crypto and deploy it
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21:10 < kanzure> stalkmatrix has 30581 unique tags (which are used to tag conversations)
21:10 < kanzure> 2248 of those tags are unique names of other people
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21:26 < nmz787> sheena: how much would you want to pay for each dog cheese head gear? how much do you think other people would willingly pay?
21:26 < sheena> the kibble machine things are between 100 and 400 bucks
21:26 < sheena> and people buy them
21:27 < sheena> it would depend how reliable and useful it was, and size of dog is a huge issue... dogs range a lot
21:28 < kragen> are you going to rake in da cash peddling your own kibble machine?
21:29 < kanzure> kragen: if you have weird questions to ask me about my distribution of tags now would be the time to ask
21:29 < kanzure> (i just took the unique list of conversation tags)
21:33 < kragen> I assume it's Zipfian
21:33 < kragen> ?
21:34 < kanzure> zipfian is about frequencies on word utterance not word length
21:34 < kanzure> right?
21:34 < kanzure> zipf's law i mean
21:37 < kragen> yeah, frequencies
21:38 < kanzure> i sort of tossed that data, i should do a better parse soonish
21:38 < kanzure> i have some old tools for parsing my data but they kinda suck
21:39 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/meetlog/tag-excerpts/longest-tags.txt
21:41 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/meetlog/tag-excerpts/bio.txt
21:41 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/meetlog/tag-excerpts/dna.txt
21:42 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/meetlog/tag-excerpts/time.txt
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21:53 < nmz787> sheena: do the cheese helmets exist? would other people find them useful?
21:53 < sheena> they dont exist, and i think so
21:53 < kanzure> apparently most dog trainers don't have any money
21:54 < nmz787> except the law enforcement trainers
21:55 < kanzure> how many of those exist?
21:55 < sheena> thats not true
21:55 < sheena> they just dont spend money on the things you come up with :P
21:55 < sheena> law enforcement would be unlikely to be interested
21:56 < sheena> most of their training relies on shock collars
21:57 < nmz787> I can see the 3D-printed part in my head... now if I only could use BRL-CAD...
21:58  * nmz787 goes back to Ion Activity calculations
21:58 < kanzure> you would probably just sell the head mounts and transmitter/receiver/cheese, and then leave them to come up with their own helmets (velcro?)
21:59 < kanzure> or you could sell helmets, but since doggy head size varies so much i don't see that working out well
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22:00 < nmz787> I think I could come up with a can-head-remote-squirter
22:01 < nmz787> bluetooth or wifi? I think wifi might be longer range, but also probably more power-hungry than bluetooth low energy
22:01 < nmz787> a battery would be required
22:01 < sheena> bluetooth should be suffient?
22:01 < nmz787> which could probably fit in the can head
22:01 < sheena> dog head size is the biggest problem
22:02 < nmz787> I'll leave that part up to you
22:02 < sheena> there are dogs who would be too small for the aparatus, i expect
22:02 < nmz787> cheese cans are pretty standard size
22:02 < nmz787> yeah
22:02 < nmz787> they might need a backpack
22:02 < nmz787> :p
22:02 < nmz787> a chihuahua
22:02 < nmz787> hmm
22:03 < nmz787> implant an electrode into it too
22:03 < nmz787> and watch to see if it learns how to control it via cheese-feedback
22:03 < sheena> nmz787: cost to working prototype estimate?
22:04 < nmz787> not including CAD time and 3D printing (which should be like $15 to $45 I think), the electronics should be under $100, and likely $40 ish
22:04 < nmz787> and there is easily room to cut that in half
22:05 < sheena> so say, $80 in parts/material to something i could TRY to see if its even a workable idea?
22:05 < nmz787> I think so
22:05 < sheena> seems reasonable
22:05 < nmz787> I think the can head would be a geared motor with a cam, which effects a sliding thing that tilts the cheese nozzle
22:05 < sheena> how would it work? do you have more ideas than "it would work"? lol
22:05 < sheena> lol as you answer my question
22:06 < sheena> that makes sense
22:06 < nmz787> the sliding thing should be a U shape, so it can pull the cheese nozzle back to center
22:06 < sheena> ok
22:06 < nmz787> geeared motor not required
22:06 < sheena> so like, ON/OFF
22:06 < sheena> not like "Go" (on, off sequence on its own)
22:06 < nmz787> but probably will make it lower current requirement
22:06 < nmz787> well the gears would park the nozzle
22:06 < sheena> lower current = better? cheaper? battery life?
22:07 < nmz787> so it could stick ON if the power was cut at the right moment
22:07 < sheena> ok
22:07 < sheena> cool
22:07 < nmz787> (wrong moment?)
22:07 < sheena> the ability to have like
22:07 < sheena> "continuous cheese"
22:07 < sheena> would be useful perhaps
22:07 < nmz787> lower current means cheaper battery in general
22:08 < nmz787> but during park with the geared, the motor wouldn't use any current
22:08 < nmz787> unlike a solenoid
22:08 < nmz787> which is ON/OFF
22:08 < nmz787> (while geared motor would be forward, off, backward, off)
22:08 < nmz787> and the off time could be controlled by a phone finger-press being held down
22:09 < nmz787> (for the middle off)
22:09 < nmz787> (this is way more fun than chemistry)
22:09 < sheena> hehe
22:09 < sheena> http://www.elitek9.com/Head-Mounted-Dog-Camera-System/productinfo/DCS/ these guys probably know their shit
22:09 < sheena> re mounts
22:10 < sheena> it should be designed (not necessarily the prototype, but in general) to withstand like, some impacts?
22:11 < nmz787> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/gopro-Dog-Harness-go-pro-accessories-Chest-Strap-Mount-for-Gopro-Camera-Hero-4-3/32268220597.html?s=p
22:11 < nmz787> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-GoPro-Accessories-Dog-Pet-Mounting-Selfie-Harness-Chest-Strap-Belt-Mount-For-GoPro-Hero/32253403969.html
22:12 < sheena> does taht price include the knockoff harness? lol
22:12 < sheena> those arent head mounted hto?
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22:13 < nmz787> that price seems like it is for the harness
22:13 < nmz787> idk look for better listings
22:13 < nmz787> ya 3D printed plastic is often ABS, which is pretty strong off the printer
22:14 < nmz787> maybe a section of PVC pipe would do, but it would be heavier than a 3d printed part
22:14 < nmz787> i think
22:14 < sheena> pvc pipe is something dog people tend to have around
22:14 < sheena> if it were relevant for modularness
22:14 < sheena> im thinking re head mount that i'd make something vs buy soething
22:15 < nmz787> i think it could be 1 or two 3d printed parts
22:15 < nmz787> yeah, could buy some cheap ones to get ideas
22:15 < nmz787> or look at their pics
22:15 < sheena> the ones for k9s cameras have two straps around the head, some around the ears, and the thing mounts centre on top of the head
22:15 < nmz787> you could start prototyping that now, since you have cheese up there
22:16 < sheena> i have no cheese at the moment :(
22:16 < sheena> getting mroe next week i hope. friend smugglign it up for me
22:16 < nmz787> what kind of dogs are these going to be?
22:16 < nmz787> what if they are lactose intolerant or something ?
22:16 < nmz787> negative feedback
22:16 < sheena> my test dogs are my own.. 55lb bc mix and 65lb malinois, plus my landlord's got 9 belgians and a mini american eskimo
22:17 < sheena> lol
22:17 < sheena> they like canned cheese
22:17 < nmz787> he heh
22:17 < sheena> and Kong makes canned not-cheese stuff. its expensive, but would probably fit the device for dogs who coudlnt have it
22:18 < nmz787> whipped cream
22:18 < nmz787> but i guess that's dairy
22:18 < nmz787> does whipped meat exist?
22:21 < sheena> kong makes a liver one
22:21 < sheena> http://www.amazon.ca/Kong-72186-StuffN-Treat-8-Ounce/dp/B00008DFK5
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22:29 < fenn> you could probably refill the cheese cans with whatever you want, if you figured out how to inject the propellant
22:29 < fenn> "Normal aerosol cans are charged with all of their contents through the single opening at the top, but spray cheese cans are separately charged with the product through the top and propellant through the bottom."
22:31 < sheena> cause mixing is bad
22:31 < fenn> i don't have a can here to look closely at the plug in the bottom. does it have a hole like a soccer ball or basket ball to insert an inflation needle?
22:34 < fenn> "its like crack for my dog"
22:34 < sheena> i feel like no
22:34 < sheena> i feel like it not rubber.. like metal bottom
22:35 < sheena> but i dont have one either
22:35 < fenn> "Look around and you will be able to find the regular flavors in bulk for a much better price." (kong easy treat)
22:35 < fenn> i definitely remember seeing a black rubber stopper in the bottom of the can, i just dont remember if it has a hole or not
22:37 < fenn> searching for "spray cheese bung" isn't helpful :\
22:38 < fenn> http://i.imgur.com/3ebJ6.jpg apparently they use the same system in shaving cream
22:40 < nmz787> .tell sandeep re: pH meters https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlC_4KwVWV4
22:40 < yoleaux> nmz787: I'll pass your message to sandeep.
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22:55 < kragen> well, if the propellant mixed with the cheese
22:55 < kragen> it would foam the cheese as the cheese was extruded
22:56 < kragen> the black rubber stoppers in the bottom of spray cheese cans do not have holes in them. And I have not successfully removed one.
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23:01 < nmz787> they make refillable whipped cream containers
23:01 < nmz787> which take NO2 cartridges
23:02 < sheena> yeah
23:02 < sheena> but it starts as liquid?
23:02 < nmz787> the cream?
23:02 < sheena> i think so?
23:03 < nmz787> yea
23:06 < kragen> yeah, you dissolve the nitrous oxide in it, and when you release the pressure, it boils
23:06 < kragen> same as normal shaving cream or spray paint
23:07 < sheena> hm
23:07 < sheena> i thought the whipcream things took CO2, not NO2?
23:08 < fenn> NO2 tastes better
23:09 < fenn> also lower pressure
23:22 < kragen> all the canned whipped cream I've seen was made with NO₂
23:23 < kragen> I don't know why they don't use CO₂
23:23 < kragen> I suspect its critical temperature is too low
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