--- Log opened Mon Jan 26 00:00:35 2015 00:03 -!- delinquentme [a2f516a6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.162.245.22.166] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 00:21 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@185.7.192.138] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:30 -!- Merovoth [~Merovoth@gateway/tor-sasl/merovoth] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:57 -!- sheena [~home@S0106c8be196316d1.ok.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:57 -!- QuadIngi [~FourFire@185.7.192.138] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:01 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@185.7.192.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:21 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.161.105] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:22 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.161.105] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:37 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:17 -!- QuadIngi is now known as FourFire 02:21 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:40 -!- xrr [~xrr@gprs-inet-183-209.elisa.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:53 -!- xrr [~xrr@gprs-inet-183-119.elisa.ee] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:00 < archels> "Without the title of PhD, there is no room for you at a university. With the title, there often also isn't." 04:02 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:03 < archels> 4300 received PhD title in The Netherlands in 2013 04:04 < chris_99> is there a list somewhere of the number of PhDs awarded per country 04:06 < archels> not sure, this is from a recently released study/review of PhDs in Holland alone 04:17 < kanzure> "degrading things that i have hired postdocs to do for me for very little pay: ...." 04:17 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-40-21.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:18 < kanzure> hello eudoxia 04:18 < eudoxia> good morning kanzure 04:21 < kanzure> i am looking for a gasoline or other liquid microengine design 04:21 < kanzure> or a miniaturized stirling engine 04:23 < eudoxia> what would you use those for? tiny actuators? 04:23 < kanzure> indeed 04:23 < kanzure> i'm aware of other mems actuators but they all have pathetic outputs... like 0.001 newtons. 04:26 < eudoxia> are you building a telescope or some other heavy thing that needs actuators 04:27 < kanzure> almost everything needs actuatrs 04:27 < kanzure> *actuators 04:28 < eudoxia> yeah but if you're looking for something with a lot of N's i imagined you wanted to push something really heavy around 04:29 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/mems/Pneumatic%20and%20hydraulic%20microactuators:%20a%20review.pdf 04:29 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:29 < eudoxia> are there piezoelectric elements that fit what you need? 04:31 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:33 < kanzure> not to my knowledge 04:35 < kanzure> "Millimeter-scale, MEMS gas turbine engines" http://files.asme.org/IGTI/Knowledge/Articles/13045.pdf 04:39 < kanzure> hm. 04:40 < kanzure> eudoxia: the reason why is because photolithography of actuation devices would be very useful 04:42 < eudoxia> kanzure: i think that has been done, at least for weak MEMS actuators, not miniature heat engines 04:44 < kanzure> need moar power 04:52 -!- pasky [~pasky@nikam.ms.mff.cuni.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:52 -!- ivan` [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:53 -!- Douhet [~Douhet@unaffiliated/douhet] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:53 -!- Douhet [~Douhet@unaffiliated/douhet] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:54 < kanzure> eudoxia: also because moving big things is useful, even if you have mems 04:54 -!- ivan` [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:01 -!- pasky [~pasky@nikam.ms.mff.cuni.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:09 -!- abetusk [~abe@c-71-192-163-80.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:12 -!- phm4242 [~o@boole.london.hackspace.org.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:12 -!- phm42 [~l@2001:8b0:856:1:a91f:9c9a:69b5:a757] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:19 < kanzure> why don't i know anyone that bought anabolic steroids from silk road? 05:34 < kanzure> http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2015-01-22/global-internet-greg-wyler-may-beat-elon-musk-google-facebook 05:40 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lqzopeztlkzeqvkb] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:48 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@185.7.192.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:50 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:02 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:03 -!- narwh4l [8dd611e8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.141.214.17.232] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:19 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:36 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:49 -!- xrr [~xrr@gprs-inet-183-119.elisa.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:54 -!- Guest99326 is now known as maaku 07:06 < kragen> kanzure: have you looked at Perry Metzger's commits to NetBSD? 07:11 < kanzure> no 07:14 < kragen> it might be helpful if you want to perform software stylometry 07:14 < kragen> on his C, at least, although that's not C++ 07:14 < eudoxia> i thought we'd established satoshi used windows 07:14 < eudoxia> pmetzger uses os x 07:17 < kragen> stylometry probably isn't robust to active deception attempts anyway 07:23 -!- xrr [~xrr@gprs-inet-183-53.elisa.ee] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:26 -!- helleshin [~talinck@66-161-138-110.ubr1.dyn.lebanon-oh.fuse.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:27 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:28 -!- Zinglon [~Zinglon@D5499BDE.cm-10-1a.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:39 -!- sheena [~home@S0106c8be196316d1.ok.shawcable.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:48 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@73.168.27.10] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:48 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@73.168.27.10] has quit [Changing host] 07:48 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:50 < justanotheruser> kanzure: is there a roadmap anywhere other than the name? 07:51 < justanotheruser> go to wiki, ctrl+f "road", only link is hplusroadmap and it doesn't have a roadmap 07:52 < eudoxia> this is the closest thing http://diyhpl.us/wiki/projects/proposals/ 07:55 < kanzure> yes there used to be an actual roadmap that i never revised 07:55 < kanzure> this would have been around 2007 07:57 < justanotheruser> :( 07:57 < souljack> Trying to get a MyVu for #5 cheap, it looks easy enough to butcher into a mountable display. 07:58 < kanzure> didn't they stop making those 07:58 < souljack> I think so 07:59 < souljack> they still pop up here and there on ebay etc though 08:12 -!- tastybuds [25066f43@gateway/web/freenode/ip.37.6.111.67] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:15 < the8thbit|work> kanzure: Yeah, I used that, and they told me to go to the NEURON forums, but the NEURON forums wont authorize my account, and I don't know how to get a hold of their admins :( 08:26 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.161.105] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:28 -!- tastybuds [25066f43@gateway/web/freenode/ip.37.6.111.67] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:43 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-40-21.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:52 < kanzure> "I've been teaching programming to non-CS students at Stanford for the past month...they're all clearly smarter than me. But what they lack, as does virtually every non-programmer I've worked with, is the ability to (initially) understand a for-loop. It's not that they don't get that there is such a thing as a "loop", or that a task can be broken up into iterations...they just don't know what it means to design something that can iterate ... 08:52 < kanzure> ... across a collection and, for each member of that collection, perform a task on it. It's not merely not understanding the syntax, or the overall result...it's not comprehending that you can design and control such a thing. I've worked with non-programming professionals in which I've taken a repetitive task, such as extracting a bit of text from each page of thousands of pages of documents, and boiled it down to a program that saves ... 08:52 < kanzure> ... them days of work. The effect of such a program is greatly appreciated...but time and time again, these non-programmers are delighted/astounded when I perform the same task in another scenario...what bothers me is all the times when I'm not there to recognize how such a problem can be abstracted, and they dive in head first into a meaningless, repetitive chore." 09:00 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@77.88.71.230] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:15 < archels> Xplore is under maintenance. 09:15 < archels> grm 09:22 < archels> paper of the day: Effect of Mechanical Stress on Apple Impedance Parameters E. Vozáry, P. Mészáros 09:22 < kanzure> hm. 09:30 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:31 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 09:40 -!- nmz787_i [nmccorkx@nat/intel/x-rgdkxefcyeojlbgm] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:43 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:44 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lqzopeztlkzeqvkb] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 09:50 < kanzure> http://www.technologyreview.com/view/534481/first-videos-created-of-whole-brain-neural-activity-in-an-unrestrained-animal/ http://arxiv.org/abs/1501.03463 09:51 < kanzure> "The ability to acquire large-scale recordings of neuronal activity in awake and unrestrained animals poses a major challenge for studying neural coding of animal behavior. We present a new instrument capable of recording intracellular calcium transients from every neuron in the head of a freely behaving C. elegans with cellular resolution while simultaneously recording the animal's position, posture and locomotion. We employ ... 09:51 < kanzure> ... spinning-disk confocal microscopy to capture 3D volumetric fluorescent images of neurons expressing the calcium indicator GCaMP6s at 5 head-volumes per second. Two cameras simultaneously monitor the animal's position and orientation. Custom software tracks the 3D position of the animal's head in real-time and adjusts a motorized stage to keep it within the field of view as the animal roams freely. We observe calcium transients from ... 09:51 < kanzure> ... 78 neurons and correlate this activity with the animal's behavior. Across worms, multiple neurons show significant correlations with modes of behavior corresponding to forward, backward, and turning locomotion. By comparing the 3D positions of these neurons with a known atlas, our results are consistent with previous single-neuron studies and demonstrate the existence of new candidate neurons for behavioral circuits." 09:51 < kanzure> ("Whole-brain calcium imaging with cellular resolution in freely behaving C. elegans") 09:51 -!- narwh4l [8dd611e8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.141.214.17.232] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:53 < kanzure> pffft they didn't test their data against openworm 09:53 < kanzure> are we supposed to take this seriously 09:54 < kanzure> "spinning disk microscopy" 09:55 < superkuh> The leiferlab "people" page is pretty funny. 09:55 < superkuh> http://leiferlab.princeton.edu/people.php 09:57 < kanzure> "Outside of work, he likes to play tug of war against fish and read about trivial issues such as arms control." 09:57 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:11 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@77.88.71.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:14 -!- Merovoth [~Merovoth@gateway/tor-sasl/merovoth] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:18 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@77.88.71.230] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:30 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 10:30 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:54 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-80-124-115.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:54 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-204-55-117.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:58 -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:58 -!- nsh [~lol@2001:41d0:8:c2da::1337] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:58 -!- nsh [~lol@2001:41d0:8:c2da::1337] has quit [Changing host] 10:58 -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:09 -!- delinquentme [~unf@162-245-22-166.v250d.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:09 -!- delinquentme [~unf@162-245-22-166.v250d.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:09 -!- delinquentme_ [~unf@162-245-22-166.v250d.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:19 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:19 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:31 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-25-173-232.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:44 -!- phm4242 [~o@boole.london.hackspace.org.uk] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:46 < Zinglon> Hello 11:48 -!- phm42 [~l@2001:8b0:856:1:b94f:2a58:33e:14ca] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:52 < Zinglon> Does anyone here know anything about Neuroprosthetics? 11:53 < archels> .g how to ask questions on irc 11:53 < yoleaux> http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html 11:57 < nmz787_i> .wik neuroprosthetics 11:57 < yoleaux> "Neuroprosthetics (also called neural prosthetics) is a discipline related to neuroscience and biomedical engineering concerned with developing neural prostheses. They are sometimes contrasted with a brain–computer interface, which connects the brain to a computer rather than a device meant to replace missing biological functionality." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroprosthetics 11:57 < nmz787_i> Zinglon: yes 11:58 < nmz787_i> I was reading about a 3d-printed ear last week, that had nerves and everythin 12:00 < Zinglon> Nice!, Sorry to bother you with my question it was just i was looking up stuff about Memory prosthetics and wanted to know if it was legit 12:10 < kanzure> depends on what you mean by legit 12:12 -!- delinquentme_ [~unf@162-245-22-166.v250d.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:15 < Zinglon> Some articles just sound too good to be true, restoring lost memories and such 12:16 < Zinglon> http://spectrum.ieee.org/biomedical/bionics/darpa-project-starts-building-human-memory-prosthetics 12:16 < Zinglon> Hmm could be implanted within four years... 12:16 < kanzure> you should look around for memory engram stuff, which iirc nobody has figured out 12:17 < Zinglon> Thank you kanzure! 12:17 < chris_99> nmz787_i, got your laser machine yet? 12:17 < maaku> btw kanzure did kaj find you? 12:18 < maaku> i want him to submit his project to futureoflife.org for funding 12:18 < maaku> now that they have money 12:19 < maaku> and maybe it will pull him away from MIRI craziness :P 12:24 < kanzure> yeah i talked with kaj for a few minutes 12:24 < kanzure> nothing really came of that conversation, i gave him some links i guess 12:26 < Zinglon> I have to log guys, bb! 12:27 -!- Zinglon [~Zinglon@D5499BDE.cm-10-1a.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Po-ta-to, boil em, mash em, stick em in a stew.] 12:32 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:40 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:56 -!- Burnin8 is now known as Burninate 12:57 < maaku> :\ 12:58 < kanzure> maaku: i don't offer much.. in fact it's quite a hard thing to pitch... "hey how about doing some really hard work? doesn't that sound like fun?" 13:00 < kanzure> quite possibly the worst pitch in the history of forever 13:00 < maaku> this is true 13:00 < maaku> also a good filter though 13:01 < kanzure> we get some pretty weird trolls in here from time to time 13:01 < kanzure> thanfully the schizophrenics haven't showed up in a while. 13:01 < kanzure> prolly ever since i started saying "mkultra" (thx jrayhawk) 13:06 < archels> yes, the absence is really quite remarkable 13:07 < archels> ergh what was that recent optogenetics paper on implanting memories or something 13:07 < archels> not so recent http://www.sciencemag.org/content/341/6144/387 13:07 < archels> .title 13:07 < yoleaux> Creating a False Memory in the Hippocampus 13:08 < kanzure> false memories are something different 13:08 < archels> yeah, they relied on earlier activation patterns 13:09 < kanzure> do you know which things have been investigated and thrown out as possible mehcanisms of memory? 13:09 < kanzure> and which things are still on the table 13:10 < kanzure> "Identification and optogenetic manipulation of memory engrams in the hippocampus" (2014) http://dspace.mit.edu/openaccess-disseminate/1721.1/85174 13:11 < archels> it's not really my field, I think vector (across the population, but not 'population vector') sparse/dense coding theories are being investigated 13:12 < archels> an enormous amount of hippocampal research deals with place fields 13:13 < nmz787_i> chris_99: no :( someone emailed a few days ago saying they forgot to mail it and were re-mailing... this may mean I end up with 2 laser etchers though 13:13 < chris_99> heh, that'd be cool if you did 13:14 < archels> dentage gyrus would generate a dense population code, which is fed to a densely interconnected CA3 thought to serve as an autoassociative memory 13:14 < archels> CA1 would then read out and sparsify CA3 13:14 < archels> as always with the brain, the story is not very clear cut and probably never will be 13:16 < archels> also, oscillations 13:16 < kanzure> "oscillations!!!" 13:21 -!- night is now known as pacifica 13:22 -!- pacifica is now known as night 13:25 -!- night is now known as scotchandcigars 13:27 -!- scotchandcigars is now known as night 13:28 < nmz787_i> chris_99: when I was looking at the listing a few days ago, I think it may have shown a red laser, which I thought would be a blue one.. no matter though as I plan to replace it with a blu-ray drive laser sled 13:29 < nmz787_i> seems I have another reason to build an interferometer for distance tracking, so that is on my agenda for things to not-get-excited-about-until-my-class-is-done 13:30 < nmz787_i> I'm such a bad student, I spent most of my day yesterday procrastinating 13:30 < nmz787_i> and didn't really work on useful things either, mainly just not feeling focused and ended up screwing around 13:30 < nmz787_i> :/ 13:31 < chris_99> heh, are you in uni then? 13:35 < nmz787_i> since 2007! 13:36 < chris_99> hmm, me too i think iirc 13:36 < chris_99> whatcha studying 13:36 < nmz787_i> degree is biotechnology, minor in bioinformatics 13:36 < chris_99> nice 13:36 < nmz787_i> I've only taken maybe 3 or 4 classes in the last 2 years 13:37 < chris_99> is it a PhD/masters/...? 13:37 < nmz787_i> nah 13:37 < nmz787_i> drawn-out B.S. 13:37 < chris_99> cool, are you doing any of your own projects for it? 13:38 < nmz787_i> more like I'm doing it to further my projects 13:38 < nmz787_i> the degree doesn't require projects or anything like a thesis though 13:39 < nmz787_i> in '07 I was ready to leave my short stint as a laborer, was interested in algae making biofuel, and got into biotech 13:39 < nmz787_i> been wanting to drop out since the first quarter, still hate classes 13:39 < chris_99> what kind of biofuel do algae make? 13:40 < nmz787_i> day job these days wants a degree to pay me more, so that's as good of a reason to get a degree as I've ever had 13:40 < nmz787_i> whatever kind you want if they're programmed right! 13:40 < chris_99> ahh 13:40 < nmz787_i> but I think they've done biodiesel and maybe butanol 13:40 < nmz787_i> not efficiently 13:40 < chris_99> iirc, you can just use alcohol in petrol cars, with some modifications? 13:41 < chris_99> which you can make by fermenting pulp, using some special yeasties 13:41 < nmz787_i> ethanol absorbs water in leaky pipes 13:41 < nmz787_i> so no good for mass transport in existing infrastructure 13:42 < chris_99> not sure exactly what you mean 13:43 < nmz787_i> it is more hygroscopic than butanol or petrol or diesel 13:43 < nmz787_i> bad for combustion 13:43 < nmz787_i> bad for metal parts (they'll rust) 13:43 < chris_99> hmm, according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel though, most cars can run on a blend of 10% 13:44 < nmz787_i> oil pipes leak all the time so this allows moisture into the pipeline 13:44 < nmz787_i> yeeah, mainly to increase octane and help solubilize water that may be pprsent 13:44 < chris_99> aha 13:45 < nmz787_i> (a shot of water would stall the engine, but dissolved it just lowers efficiency 13:45 < nmz787_i> or, maybe increases NOx 13:55 < nmz787_i> http://info.tek.com/rs/tektronix/images/spectrum-allocations-posterLR.pdf 14:09 < kragen> it can sometimes actually increase efficiency 14:09 < kragen> that depends on a lot of things 14:21 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@77.88.71.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:22 < ParahSailin_> algae biofuel doesnt really work if you're trying to have them secrete something rather than harvesting raw bod right? 14:26 < kanzure> you know... i forget. 14:26 < kanzure> i think i figured out that it doesn't work either way, once 14:26 < kanzure> but uh.. i'm not sure now.. 14:34 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:03 < streety> why would water in fuel increase NOx? Would it not lower the combustion temperature and decrease NOx? 15:04 < nmz787_i> I think algae currently don't secrete, which is the goal for a lot of folks... the other way is to harvest algae then spend energy to crack their shells and get the inner oils... but the lysis is more energy than the return 15:04 -!- delinquentme [~unf@162-245-22-166.v250d.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:04 < nmz787_i> streety: I was just barfing ideas 15:06 < streety> fair enough, sometimes turns up a golden nugget 15:13 < kanzure> "Hence my concern. I think being "informed" in free market transactions is an assumption but also an impossibility. It's very hard to inform yourself in a climate where all those who are powerful have an incentive to get you to believe something entirely false (keeping you misinformed and thus asserting their power over your decisions). In a world full of conmen, the due diligence required to make informed decisions on even the most ... 15:13 < kanzure> ... basic of transactions becomes rapidly prohibitive to the point of impracticability. This is before we even consider the monumental number of disagreements humans will have on what the truth actually is. Getting accurate information in such a quagmire would be difficult for even those most experienced with a field." 15:13 < kanzure> and: 15:13 < kanzure> "Then maybe we should have a 'protected persons' card that people who are concerned about conmen can have issued to them, that ensures only government-vetted companies can deal with them. Unlicensed companies would be barred from providing services to anyone with 'protected person' status. People like me could opt out of this 'protected person' program and be free to use unlicensed services. Do you think that would be fair?" 15:31 < ParahSailin_> relying on algae secreting just selects for the ones that have the metabolic advantage of keeping carbon to themselves 15:33 < kanzure> aren't you supposed to dump entire batches that get selfish? 15:35 < ParahSailin_> i guess youd have to 15:39 < nmz787_i> yeah you'd need to have the right selection system\ 15:40 < kanzure> nmz787_i: find me a mems gasoline engine that produces >1 newton of force 15:40 < nmz787_i> hrmm 15:40 < kanzure> diesel is also okay 15:40 < nmz787_i> are RC plane engines too large (they are not mems) 15:40 < kanzure> needs to be planar 15:40 < kanzure> or mostly planar 15:40 < kanzure> planar-manufacturable 15:41 < nmz787_i> hrmm, maybe take fungal spore generating cells as bio-inspiration? 15:41 < kanzure> huh? 15:41 < nmz787_i> they have like the highest force for natural projectiles 15:41 < nmz787_i> or that one shrimp thing 15:41 < nmz787_i> that knocks out its prey 15:42 < nmz787_i> .wik mantis shrimp 15:42 < yoleaux> "Mantis shrimp or stomatopods are marine crustaceans, the members of the order Stomatopoda. They commonly reach 30 centimetres (12 in) in length, though in exceptional cases have been recorded at up to 38 cm (15 in). The largest ever caught has a length of 46 cm (18 in) in the ocean near Fort Pierce, Florida of USA." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantis_shrimp 15:42 < kanzure> i think you and i are talking about two different things 15:42 < nmz787_i> "Both types strike by rapidly unfolding and swinging their raptorial claws at the prey, and are capable of inflicting serious damage on victims significantly greater in size than themselves. In smashers, these two weapons are employed with blinding quickness, with an acceleration of 10,400 g (102,000 m/s2 or 335,000 ft/s2) and speeds of 23 m/s from a standing start.[9] Because they strike so rapidly, they 15:42 < nmz787_i> generate cavitation bubbles between the appendage and the striking surface.[9] The collapse of these cavitation bubbles produces measurable forces on their prey in addition to the instantaneous forces of 1,500 newtons that are caused by the impact of the appendage against the striking surface, which means that the prey is hit twice by a single strike; first by the claw and then by the collapsing cavitation bubbles that immediatel 15:42 < nmz787_i> follow." 15:43 < nmz787_i> kanzure: well you need somewhere to grab ideas from 15:43 < nmz787_i> http://jeb.biologists.org/content/208/19/3655 15:43 < nmz787_i> I guess muscle cell mechanisms would be too complex for planar fab 15:44 < nmz787_i> http://rsif.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/10/85/20130187.full.pdf+html 15:44 < nmz787_i> I think the mechanism for the spore ejection is water based 15:44 < nmz787_i> but that might be totally wrong 15:45 < nmz787_i> newscale tech might have something you like 15:45 < nmz787_i> they have some piezo stuff 15:45 < nmz787_i> .g 'mems steam engine' 15:45 < yoleaux> http://www.ttivanguard.com/montrealreconn/powerMEMS.pdf 15:45 < nmz787_i> http://www.eureka.gme.usherbrooke.ca/memslab/docs/PowerMEMS-Rankine-paper.pdf 15:46 < nmz787_i> http://www.dissertations.wsu.edu/Dissertations/Summer2010/h_bardaweel_071510.pdf 15:49 < jrayhawk> there was that tiny wankel engine from a while back 15:49 < jrayhawk> http://berkeley.edu/news/berkeleyan/2001/04/10_cmbus.html 15:50 < jrayhawk> just scale it smaller, i guess? 15:50 < kanzure> "ramping up the engine to produce 30 watts" 15:51 < kanzure> well, to be honest i don't need mems in this case, i just need things-that-are-using-photolithography-and-mems-related-fabrication-techniques-oh-my-god-stop-using-dashes 15:52 < jrayhawk> "The Berkeley team hopes that some day the mini engine can be used to power electronic devices, like computers or robots. Fernandez-Pello sees it as a first step in designing much smaller engines made using micro-electromechanical (MEMS) technology. The mini engine design is ideal for miniaturizing because of its simplicity, and the components are relatively easy to make using silicon etching technology." 15:52 < jrayhawk> well, i guess just email that guy 15:52 < jrayhawk> maybe ask him if he's ever used NE1 15:52 < kanzure> so 0.04 hp 15:53 < kanzure> that seems a little unfortunate 15:54 < kanzure> how are you going to move big things? 15:57 -!- AmbulatoryCortex [~Ambulator@173-31-9-188.client.mchsi.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:07 < nsh> .title https://twitter.com/sc_k/status/559745423108481025 16:07 < yoleaux> Sarah Kavassalis auf Twitter: "The explosive reaction of alkali metals and water has until now it has been misunderstood, says new study http://t.co/QXWbZEDFHY" 16:07 < nsh> i mean 16:07 < nsh> .title http://www.nature.com/news/sodium-s-explosive-secrets-revealed-1.16771 16:07 < yoleaux> Sodium's explosive secrets revealed : Nature News & Comment 16:09 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-25-173-232.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:11 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:12 -!- delinquentme [~unf@162-245-22-166.v250d.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:17 < kanzure> "What drives exponential improvements?" http://www.eng.nus.edu.sg/etm/research/publications/47.pdf 16:18 < nmz787_i> .wik floating gate 16:18 < yoleaux> "The floating-gate MOSFET (FGMOS) is a field-effect transistor, whose structure is similar to a conventional MOSFET. The gate of the FGMOS is electrically isolated, creating a floating node in DC, and a number of secondary gates or inputs are deposited above the floating gate (FG) and are electrically isolated from it." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floating_gate 16:18 < nmz787_i> apparently a way to make non-volatile memory 16:27 < kragen> not just *a* way 16:28 < kragen> but by far the most important way to make non-volatile random access memory 16:28 < kragen> since Flash, other EEPROMs, and EPROMs are made of FG MOSFETs. 16:29 < kragen> FRAM and MRAM aren't, but they're niche. And disks aren't, but they're non-random-access and produced in smaller quantities than Flash these days, although larger capacities. 16:34 -!- nmz787_i [nmccorkx@nat/intel/x-rgdkxefcyeojlbgm] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:34 < kanzure> "Experimental verification of the feasibility of a 100 W class micro-scale gas turbine at an impeller diameter of 10 mm" 16:34 < kanzure> hey that is better 16:35 < kanzure> that's like >50 foot pounds per second (metric system can eat me) 16:36 -!- Genestealer [Genesteale@130.85.242.85] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:36 < kanzure> hi Genestealer 16:37 < Genestealer> hey 16:38 < Genestealer> kanzure i have a question 16:38 < Genestealer> what do you guys talk about here 16:39 < kanzure> Genestealer: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/declaration 16:39 < kanzure> things like http://diyhpl.us/wiki/genetic-modifications 16:40 < kanzure> and http://diyhpl.us/wiki/dna/projects/#igem-2014 16:41 < Genestealer> i was part of last years iGEM =p 16:41 < Genestealer> funny you sent me that link 16:41 < Genestealer> Started my own team at my university 16:42 < kanzure> igem seems to be on a perpetual quest to remake geocities 16:43 < Genestealer> LOL 16:43 < Genestealer> our project was copper remediation 16:43 < Genestealer> using Shewanella 16:43 < kanzure> Genestealer: one of the projects floating around in this irc channel is http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/nucleic/fbi-diybio-dna-v1.pdf 16:45 < kanzure> nmz787: this one claims 1 kW in a 2 inch cube https://lirias.kuleuven.be/bitstream/123456789/222860/1/08PP134.pdf?origin=publication_detail 16:45 < Genestealer> i see 16:59 -!- xrr [~xrr@gprs-inet-183-53.elisa.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:08 < kanzure> Genestealer: what brings you here? 17:28 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.161.105] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:33 < Genestealer> seems like a cool channel 17:34 < Genestealer> kanzure are you from the US? 17:34 < kanzure> yes 17:42 < Genestealer> have you heard of diybio labs 17:42 < Genestealer> biohackerspaces 17:47 < kanzure> what about them 17:49 < kanzure> i relentlessly stalk all known groups http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/groups 17:49 < kanzure> so if you ask more specific questions i can give you better ansewrs 17:49 < kanzure> *answers 17:50 < Genestealer> i mean im part of one' 17:50 < Genestealer> i was curious if you attend any? 17:50 < kanzure> i definitely don't 17:50 < Genestealer> whats your background 17:50 < Genestealer> mind measking 17:50 < kanzure> first, i don't see how they are related to diybio-- there's some community overlap, but largely they are not related to do-it-yourself 17:51 < Genestealer> it s very related lol 17:52 < Genestealer> creating a homemade thermocycler 17:52 < Genestealer> pcr 17:52 < Genestealer> dna extraction without using fancy kits 17:52 < kanzure> yes, institutationalized non-institutional biology makes perfect sense -_- 17:52 < Genestealer> just curious to know if you are a biologist? =p 17:52 < Genestealer> all im asking 17:53 < kanzure> well i don't have a license if that's what you mean 17:55 < Genestealer> degree> 17:55 < Genestealer> ? 17:55 < kanzure> none 17:56 < Genestealer> high school? 17:56 < Genestealer> or intermittent college student 17:56 < kanzure> fuck college, fuck high school 17:56 < Genestealer> <3 17:56 < jrayhawk> haha he doesn't want to admit he graduated high school 17:56 < kanzure> it's true :( 17:56 < jrayhawk> sucker! 17:57 < Genestealer> that's where you learn about this stuff is in college LOL 17:57 < kanzure> "if this guy will believe he has to stay in high school he'll believe anything" 17:57 < jrayhawk> no, you learn all this stuff from scholar.google.com 17:57 < kanzure> and also angry professors yelling at you 17:57 < kanzure> that is an important ingredient 17:58 < Genestealer> they dont yell actually 17:58 < kanzure> including classics like "get the fuck out of my lab" 17:58 < Genestealer> they just dont give a shit 17:58 < kanzure> molecular biology professors totally yell 17:58 < jrayhawk> http://sem-proceedings.com/03s/sem.org-2003-SEM-Ann-Conf-s52p01-Invited-MEMS-Rotary-Engine-Power-System-Project-Overview-Recent.pdf is somewhat more interesting 17:58 < Genestealer> i mean i have a degree in biology 17:58 < Genestealer> not one professor yelled at me 17:58 < Genestealer> the problem is their apath to teaching 17:58 < Genestealer> apathy* 17:59 < jrayhawk> "...there are no commercially available diagnostic engine test stands..." 18:00 < kanzure> 4 watts is nothing dude 18:00 < kanzure> .wa 4 watts in foot pounds per second 18:00 < yoleaux> convert 4 W (watts) to foot pounds-force per second: 2.95 ft lbf/s (foot pounds-force per second); Additional conversion: 0.005364 hp (horsepower); Comparisons as power: ~(0.012 ~1/86) × peak power consumption of a NVidia GEForce GPU (graphics processing unit) (300 to 400 W); ~(0.031 ~1/33) × peak power consumption of a Pentium 4 CPU (central processing unit) (~130 W) 18:01 < jrayhawk> piffle 18:02 < kanzure> hm? 18:02 < jrayhawk> someone actually makes a MEMSable gasoline design and all you do is poopoo its power 18:03 < jrayhawk> this is neat stuff 18:03 < kanzure> to be fair, i have been having a very shit day 18:04 < Genestealer> y 18:05 < kanzure> i was wondering about mems actuators because to my knowledge there's no way to do large-scale production (like through spatial light modulation) to produce large-force-effecting actuators 18:05 < kanzure> by large-scale i mean vlsi-style, instead of one-off assembly 18:05 < kanzure> and mostly this was related to questions about having motor assembly of other components or something 18:05 < kanzure> and a few piconewtons of force isn't going to snap anything into place or lift heavy stuffs 18:06 < kanzure> Genestealer: dunno 18:22 < kanzure> neat little store http://www.dronesplus.com/ 18:31 -!- AmbulatoryCortex [~Ambulator@173-31-9-188.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:38 -!- ryankarason [~rak@stallman.cse.ohio-state.edu] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:41 < jrayhawk> i blame bad days on inflammation 18:41 < jrayhawk> but i blame basically everything on inflammation 18:43 < nsh> i blame basically everything on phlogiston 19:06 -!- Kobbs [~kevinkobl@c-24-63-77-197.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:08 < kanzure> jrayhawk: i realy have no idea what's going wrong today 19:09 < kanzure> lots of impaired cognition. might be bad adderall, but two pills? i doubt it. 19:32 -!- justanot1eruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:33 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 19:34 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:36 -!- justanot1eruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Client Quit] 19:40 < ParahSailin_> wouldnt fuel cell be easier at mems scale than heat engine? 19:47 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:59 -!- Burninate [~Burn@pool-71-241-254-181.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:59 -!- Burnin8 [~Burn@pool-71-241-254-181.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:59 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:04 -!- Kobbs [~kevinkobl@c-24-63-77-197.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:09 -!- archels [charl@unaffiliated/archels] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:15 -!- archels [charl@toad.stack.nl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:17 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:20 -!- ryankarason [~rak@opensource.cse.ohio-state.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:43 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:51 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:56 -!- poohbear [~tigger@unaffiliated/tigger] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:46 -!- abetusk [~abe@c-71-192-163-80.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:48 < abetusk> kanzure, or anyone else, do you know of the main drawbacks of VCF? Specifically what about VCFs that graph based approaches are trying to address? 21:49 -!- phm42 [~l@2001:8b0:856:1:b94f:2a58:33e:14ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:50 < kanzure> variant call format? 21:50 -!- phm4242 [~o@boole.london.hackspace.org.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:50 < abetusk> yes 21:55 < kanzure> never heard of this 22:28 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.161.105] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:32 < ParahSailin_> what about vcf 22:38 < abetusk> People are trying to come up with new approaches to represent genomes. These so-called graph based approaches, like GFA I guess. I was wondering what the main drawbacks of VCF were. 22:38 < ParahSailin_> vcf is for snps not genomes 22:38 < abetusk> I think maybe because of 1) reference dependence, 2) difficulty of canonical or normalized representation and 3) inability to handle complex variants 22:39 < abetusk> um... 22:39 < abetusk> VCF is for variants 22:39 < ParahSailin_> polymorphism variant potato potato 22:40 < abetusk> substitutions, indels etc... 22:53 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.161.105] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:54 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.161.105] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:00 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.161.105] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:03 < Genestealer> are you guys talking about bioinformatics? 23:29 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.161.105] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:47 -!- xrr [~xrr@gprs-inet-65-117.elisa.ee] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:50 -!- Genestealer [Genesteale@130.85.242.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:58 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:58 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap --- Log closed Tue Jan 27 00:00:36 2015