--- Log opened Wed Jan 28 00:00:37 2015 00:12 -!- maaku_ [~quassel@50-0-37-37.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:13 -!- maaku [~quassel@50-0-37-37.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:48 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.161.105] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:01 -!- poppingtonic [~poppingto@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:15 -!- Guest49 [~textual@gatekeeper.bbp.ch] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:15 -!- Guest49 [~textual@gatekeeper.bbp.ch] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 01:34 -!- Guest49 [~textual@gatekeeper.bbp.ch] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:49 < archels> As of now, all individual members of AISB have a personal subscription to the Taylor & Francis journal Connection Science as part of their membership. 01:49 < archels> hurrah 02:01 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:10 -!- poppingtonic [~poppingto@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:33 -!- nsh [~xeb@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:54 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.161.105] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:12 -!- poppingtonic [~poppingto@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:25 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.161.105] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:26 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.161.105] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:26 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.161.105] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:31 -!- nsh [~xeb@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:41 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.161.105] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:05 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.161.105] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:10 -!- Guest49 [~textual@gatekeeper.bbp.ch] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 04:11 -!- TheBlight [~TheBlight@gatekeeper.bbp.ch] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:19 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-94-91.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:26 -!- poppingtonic [~poppingto@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:27 -!- poppingtonic [~poppingto@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:33 -!- nsh [~xeb@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:33 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:35 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:43 -!- xrr [~xrr@gprs-inet-65-117.elisa.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:20 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.161.105] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:58 -!- superkuh [~superkuh@unaffiliated/superkuh] has quit [Quit: patch reboot] 06:01 -!- superkuh [~superkuh@unaffiliated/superkuh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:02 -!- poppingtonic [~poppingto@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:04 -!- poppingtonic [~poppingto@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:16 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.161.105] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:18 < kanzure> does taylorfrancis have anything actually interesting 06:21 -!- nsh [~xeb@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:23 < kanzure> http://edge.org/responses/what-scientific-idea-is-ready-for-retirement 06:23 < kanzure> .title http://edge.org/response-detail/25540 06:23 < yoleaux> Edge.org 06:23 < kanzure> blah 06:23 < kanzure> should say "information overload is ready for retirement bitches" 06:25 < maaku_> wtf. retire the search for a theory of everything? 06:25 < maaku_> quantum physics doesn't work. it is broken at large and at massive scale 06:25 < kanzure> "I think the altruism hierarchy should be retired. I do believe that people often help others absent the goal of any personal gain. Dan Batson, Philip Kitcher, and others have done the philosophical and empirical work of distinguishing other-oriented and self-oriented motives for prosociality. But I also believe that the reservation of terms such as "pure" or "real" for actions bereft of any personal gain is less than useful." 06:26 < maaku_> general relatively is broken at small scale 06:26 < maaku_> i don't think it's weird to say that there is a rule which the universe follows ... 06:26 < kanzure> hm this page is longer than i expected 06:28 < kanzure> "The apparent need to retire classical spacetime as a fundamental concept is profound, and confronts the reality that a clear successor is not yet in sight. Different approaches to the underlying quantum framework exist; some show promise but none yet clearly resolve our decades-old conundrums in black holes and cosmology. The emergence of such a successor is likely to be a key element in the next major revolution in physics." 06:28 < kanzure> man what the fuck has gone wrong with john brockman 06:28 < kanzure> can't he just filter out all the bullshit (yes everyone has known for 100 years about some of these) 06:29 < kanzure> "This leads all too easily to the idea that while someone is awake they must always be conscious of something or other. And that leads along the slippery path to the idea that if we knew what to look for we could peer inside someone's brain and find out which processes were the conscious ones and which the unconscious ones. But this is all nonsense. All we will ever find is the neural correlates of thoughts, perceptions, memories and the ... 06:29 < kanzure> ... verbal and attentional processes that lead us to think we are conscious." 06:30 < maaku_> w. t. f. 06:30 < kanzure> haha 06:30 < kanzure> "Recent studies in the booming research field of Mind Wandering show that we spend roughly two thirds of our conscious life-time zoning out—daydreaming, lost in fantasies, autobiographical planning, inner narratives or depressive rumination. Depending on the study, 30-50% of our waking life is occupied by spontaneously occurring stimulus and task-unrelated thought. Mind Wandering probably has positive aspects too, because it is ... 06:31 < kanzure> ... associated with creativity, careful future planning, or the encoding of long-term memories. But its overall performance costs (for example, in terms of reading comprehension, memory, sustained attention tasks, or working memory) are marked and have been well documented. So have its negative effects on general, subjective well-being. A wandering mind clearly is an unhappy mind, but it may only be part of a more comprehensive process ... 06:31 < kanzure> ... beyond the conscious self’s control or understanding. The sudden loss of inner autonomy—which all of us experience many hundred times every day—seems to be based on a cyclically recurring process in the brain. The ebb and flow of autonomy and meta-awareness might well be a kind of attentional see-sawing between our inner and outer worlds, caused by a constant competition between the brain networks underlying spontaneous ... 06:31 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:31 < kanzure> ... subpersonal thinking and goal-oriented cognition." 06:33 -!- poppingtonic [~poppingto@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:34 -!- TheBlight [~TheBlight@gatekeeper.bbp.ch] has left ##hplusroadmap ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"] 06:35 < kanzure> some of these are inconsistent 06:36 -!- nsh [~xeb@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:40 -!- xrr [~xrr@gprs-inet-65-117.elisa.ee] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:47 < kanzure> maaku_: you died? 06:52 < kanzure> http://openlab-blueprint.org/ 06:52 < kanzure> oh look they are kind enough to not conflate community labs with diy 06:52 < kanzure> their equipment list is not comprehensive http://openlab-blueprint.org/equipment/ 06:53 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:53 < kanzure> "spectro" doesn't even appear on this page 06:53 < kanzure> are they just smelling their samples or what 06:53 < kanzure> blah i hate people 07:23 < ParahSailin> is using vim anachronistic? 07:24 < kanzure> nah, still relevant 07:25 < ParahSailin> some consultant was complaining about not having vpn set up so that he can use sublime text or some shit 07:26 < kanzure> lee smolin saying things http://edge.org/response-detail/25371 07:26 < kanzure> ParahSailin: haha, tell him to edit locally? 07:26 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:27 < ParahSailin> yeah, like with vim, and he said "i worked with mainframes 20 years ago, im done with that now" 07:27 < kanzure> "what the fuck did you do with yourself since then?" 07:27 < kanzure> "one genome per person" http://edge.org/response-detail/25363 "At the other end of the time continuum, in 6 people who died, unrelated to cancer, there was extensive mosaicism across all organs assessed, including liver, small intestine and pancreas." 07:28 < ParahSailin> dunno, i looked at sublime text, and let me tell you, hjkl, d c, i and escape is not all there is to vim 07:28 < ParahSailin> if i were going to switch id probably learn emacs 07:28 < kanzure> .to cluckj :/ john brockman published some weird anti-falsifiability stuff http://edge.org/response-detail/25322 07:28 < yoleaux> kanzure: I'll pass your message to cluckj. 07:29 < kanzure> http://edge.org/response-detail/25284 "Then why did the human brain double in size? Why is it much bigger than you might think it needs to be, to underpin our level of intelligence? There's no question that big brains are costly to build and maintain. So, if we are to retire the "obvious theory", what can we put in its place? The answer I'd suggest lies in the advantage of having a large amount of cognitive reserve. Big brains have spare ... 07:29 < kanzure> ... capacity that can be called on if and when working-parts get damaged or wear out. From adulthood onwards humans—like other mammals—begin to lose a significant amount of brain tissue to accidents, haemorrhages and degeneration. But because humans can draw on this extra reserve, the loss doesn't have to show. This means humans can retain their mental powers into relative old age, long after their smaller brained ancestors would ... 07:29 < kanzure> ... have become incapacitated. (And as a matter of fact the unfortunate individual born with an unusually small brain is much more likely to succumb to senile dementia in his forties)." 07:30 < kanzure> " So, what evolutionary advantage does longevity bring, even the post-reproductive longevity typical of humans? The answer surely is that humans can benefit—as no other species could do—from the presence of mentally-sound grandparents and great-grandparents, whose role in caretaking and teaching has been key to the success of human culture." 07:34 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:38 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Client Quit] 07:38 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:00 -!- Merovoth [~Merovoth@gateway/tor-sasl/merovoth] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:02 < ParahSailin> did python3 remove tuple packing in for .. in stuff? 08:02 < kanzure> you mean "for (x, y) in enumerate(range(0,10))"? 08:03 < kanzure> .py3 [(x, y) for (x, y) in enumerate(range(0, 10))] 08:03 < kanzure> .py [(x, y) for (x, y) in enumerate(range(0, 10))] 08:03 < yoleaux> [(0, 0), (1, 1), (2, 2), (3, 3), (4, 4), (5, 5), (6, 6), (7, 7), (8, 8), (9, 9)] 08:03 < kanzure> works fine 08:04 < ParahSailin> i remember that python3 fucked up destructuring in some case 08:20 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-keidkxcxkkjjluch] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:23 -!- xeb [~xeb@213.205.251.150] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:25 -!- xeb [~xeb@213.205.251.150] has quit [Changing host] 08:25 -!- xeb [~xeb@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:25 -!- xeb is now known as nsh 08:41 -!- nsh [~xeb@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:41 -!- strangewarp_ is now known as strangewarp 08:43 -!- Merovoth [~Merovoth@gateway/tor-sasl/merovoth] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:45 -!- nsh [~xeb@213.205.251.150] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:46 -!- sheena [~home@S0106c8be196316d1.ok.shawcable.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:51 -!- nsh [~xeb@213.205.251.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:54 -!- nsh [~xeb@213.205.251.150] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:55 -!- xeb_ [~xeb@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:55 -!- nsh [~xeb@213.205.251.150] has quit [Disconnected by services] 08:55 -!- xeb_ is now known as nsh 09:13 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-94-91.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:14 < kanzure> https://jagt.github.io/clumsy/ "clumsy makes your network condition on Windows significantly worse, but in a managed and interactive manner." 09:28 -!- sheena [~home@S0106c8be196316d1.ok.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:28 -!- nsh [~xeb@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:49 -!- Zinglon [~Zinglon@D5499BDE.cm-10-1a.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:50 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.161.105] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:55 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/ACSPublications/status/560465213573844992 09:55 < yoleaux> We are currently experiencing issues with Google search results; please be aware that we are working to resolve this ASAP. (@ACSPublications) 10:20 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-50-238-219.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:24 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-keidkxcxkkjjluch] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 10:28 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:30 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:30 < maaku_> kanzure: ? 10:30 < maaku_> just afk 10:34 < kanzure> ah i thought you vanished in a puff of dignified horror of the evils of edge.org 10:35 < maaku_> oh hah. nah i'm at a conference. only on IRC when the talk is uninteresting :P 10:50 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:55 -!- maaku_ is now known as maaku 10:58 -!- nmz787_i [nmccorkx@nat/intel/x-csmjxgxeijmlflra] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:59 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@77.88.71.230] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:03 -!- nsh [~xeb@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:06 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:17 -!- gwillen [~gwillen@unaffiliated/gwillen] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:22 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@77.88.71.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:25 -!- phm4242 [~o@boole.london.hackspace.org.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:28 -!- xeb_ [~xeb@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:28 -!- nsh [~xeb@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Disconnected by services] 11:28 < andytoshi> exciting news everyone: my life insurance policy was approved. i have to mail in some forms to alcor now ... onto the "real" part of cryonics signup :0 11:29 -!- xeb_ is now known as nsh 11:30 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:31 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:31 < eudoxia> hey congratulations on not cryocrastinating 11:36 < kanzure> eudoxia: i may have found a way to make "skdb" work 11:36 < eudoxia> kanzure: solving the incentives problem or a design thing? 11:42 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:44 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@77.88.71.230] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:47 < kanzure> ... yes... 11:48 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@128.211.171.2] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:48 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@128.211.171.2] has quit [Changing host] 11:48 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:56 -!- drewbot_ [~cinch@ec2-54-198-143-29.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:57 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-23-23-53-200.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:01 < eudoxia> ok well i'm listening 12:23 < andytoshi> kanzure: maaku suggests that my personal identity is really tied up in my body and i shouldn't do head-only cryopreservation. do you have any thoughts on that? 12:27 -!- Zinglon [~Zinglon@D5499BDE.cm-10-1a.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- In tests, 0x09 out of 0x0A l33t h4x0rz prefer it :)] 12:29 < kanzure> uhrm, i would have to see lots of evidence about that 12:30 < justanotheruser> andytoshi: your identity is only a screenname to me, so as long as you cryopreserve your head containing the password, you should be good. 12:30 < andytoshi> justanotheruser: i keep that in my keepass :) 12:31 < ParahSailin> if you freeze the brain and the heart, chances are you've got the soul 12:31 < andytoshi> kanzure: well, for example a lot of hormonal stuff occurs in response to gut neurons right? 12:31 < andytoshi> i don't recall where i read this. it's something maaku brought up 12:33 < eudoxia> andytoshi: people with transected spines don't have a sudden personality change. and hormonal stuff is not too unique to a person, like brain structure. 12:36 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:39 < andytoshi> hmmm 12:41 < andytoshi> it is hard to mentally separate myself from my body. like i'm typing right now and i'm not consciously moving fingers, i'm just thinking into the screen.. 12:41 < andytoshi> i guess, i could relearn all that stuff with a new body 12:41 < andytoshi> but do the tactile sensations etc define my personality? 12:41 < andytoshi> as an extreme example, there are studies to show that if you give someone botox or otherwise reshape their face, this -does- cause personality changes 12:43 < archels> severing the spine means you'll have to relearn much of your motor control and sensory maps 12:43 < archels> which might be a bit annoying and/or debilitating 12:44 < archels> as for the gut neurons, they should be pretty interchangable 12:44 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:44 < archels> perhaps the bone marrow stem cells can be of use in the future, but then again by the time they thaw you, we can probably induce pluripotent stem cells from any tissue 12:46 < archels> the idea is that they'll grow new bodies for the neuros based on their own DNA, no? 12:52 < archels> right, Alcor states that explicitly at least 12:53 < archels> "A more likely problem could be joining the axons of the brain stem to the right muscles of the body. These connections might not be completely genetically determined. Various motor skills, such as walking or playing the piano, might have to be relearned." 12:53 < archels> of course Alcor is going to try and sound positive about everything 12:54 < kanzure> cubespawn has 90k sq ft of industrial shop space and equipment... geeze. 12:54 < archels> "Aubrey de Grey has theorized that neuropatients will be revived after procedures have been perfected on whole body patients, and therefore have better chances for revival." 12:54 < andytoshi> ok, well, i can do both those things and idk how quickly i'd relearn them. might be interesting to swap some nerves eg to swap my brain's view of my index and ring fingers to see what happens 12:54 < andytoshi> that's a good point re revival, archels 12:54 < kanzure> hormone thing is bullshit, you can derive some of that information from your genome and methylation 12:55 < kanzure> as for muscles... that doesnt matter either. so you might have to learn new motor functions, big deal... 12:55 < kanzure> motor function is overrated 12:57 < kanzure> personality being impacted by botox is probably just because people think the face expresses personality 12:58 < kanzure> there might be some personal feedback there, or feedback through others and how they treat you, but in either case i don't care 12:59 < andytoshi> kanzure: the botox study asked people how they were feeling 12:59 < andytoshi> if they couldn't frown anymore they became happier 12:59 < kanzure> yes people can feel differently.. but so what? 13:00 < andytoshi> i think how happy you are on average is a big determiner of personality 13:00 < andytoshi> i'm a happy person, and the sad people around me do incomprehensible things all the time 13:01 < kanzure> so the concern here is something about your personality being different between two points in time? 13:02 < andytoshi> i guess. 13:02 < andytoshi> i think, i have always preferred my current personality (which ofc has changed dramatically many times over the years) to any other. the idea of changing is bad 13:03 < andytoshi> i guess, this is a silly argument about cryonics tho because there are many things (including factors i cannot forsee or influence) in life that change my personality 13:03 < kanzure> also most assays of personality are bullshit 13:04 < kanzure> i would be much more interested in some sort of brain backup system where you can do rollbacks 13:05 < archels> getting your own body back shouldn't really be much of a problem at that point 13:06 < archels> accelerated growth of a zygote based on your own somatic cells 13:06 < kanzure> perhaps 13:07 < archels> oh, and keep it from developing its own brain and personality, I guess 13:07 < kanzure> that seems like an annoying thing to try to do 13:07 < kanzure> i think emulation is more likely 13:07 < kanzure> i mean, more easy 13:09 < archels> probably, yeah 13:10 < archels> I don't know, what's always struck me a bit about cryonics, is that even in spite of nanotech and WBE and all that good jazz, there's a nonzero probability that for some people... it's just going to work out of the box 13:11 < kanzure> er, what strikes you in particular about that? 13:11 < archels> as in, you bring them up to temperature, follow the right procedure, restart their heart, and have them just essentially come back from the dead 13:11 < archels> just as kindof a cute aspect of cryonics--whole-body cryonics, at that 13:11 < kanzure> oh i don't think so. we haven't demonstrated that for anything bigger than a cat brain. 13:12 < kanzure> i mean maybe if we get some experimental evidence... 13:12 < archels> well, a cat would already be pretty good 13:12 < archels> wasn't the leitl working on snails last time we talked? 13:12 < kanzure> yes 13:15 < kanzure> i think another option would be to try it with human embryos 13:15 < kanzure> at longer and longer stages of development 13:15 < kanzure> and then over time select for humans able to withstand cryonics 13:16 < andytoshi> what's a leitl? 13:16 < kanzure> .g "eugen leitl" "two bits" "bryan bishop" 13:16 < yoleaux> http://osdir.com/ml/diybio/2012-11/msg00333.html 13:17 < kanzure> .g "eugen leitl" "bryan bishop" site:extropy.org 2008 13:17 < yoleaux> http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2008-January/039764.html 13:17 < kanzure> there we go. that is better. 13:18 < kanzure> whoops no 13:18 < kanzure> hmm. if i was less mobile at the moment then i would be able to fetch you the right link. 13:19 < kanzure> .g site:extropy.org inurl:2008 "bryan bishop" "eugen leitl" "don't compile" 13:19 < yoleaux> No results found. 13:20 < kanzure> .g site:extropy.org inurl:2008 "bryan bishop" "eugen leitl" "two bits" 13:20 < yoleaux> No results found. 13:20 < kanzure> impossible 13:21 -!- poppingtonic [~poppingto@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:26 < nmz787_i> my mom lost significant nerve function in her lower body, along with intense pain as a result of the damaged neurons, and this resulted in significant personality changes and unhappiness 13:38 < kragen> .g site:extropy.org inurl:2008 sitaker 13:38 < yoleaux> No results found. 13:38 < kragen> .g site:extropy.org inurl:2006 sitaker 13:38 < yoleaux> No results found. 13:38 < kragen> nmz787_i: that sounds shitty 13:39 < kragen> .g site:extropy.org sitaker 13:39 < yoleaux> http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2005-July/018108.html 13:40 < kragen> heh, it's about crowdfunding 13:41 < nmz787_i> kragen: that is a mild term to describe it, at least 13:42 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:51 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:21 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@77.88.71.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:59 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@77.19.94.175.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:09 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-50-238-219.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:12 < delinquentme> kanzure, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8962896 15:12 < delinquentme> make happen 15:12 -!- pasky [~pasky@nikam.ms.mff.cuni.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:14 < nmz787_i> delinquentme: pretty neat 15:17 < delinquentme> nmz787_i, and useful ! 15:17 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@162-245-22-166.v250d.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:19 < kanzure> ugh 15:19 < kanzure> no that is not neat 15:19 < kanzure> that is a flippant violation of sensemaking 15:19 < kanzure> and you should feel physically ill 15:22 < justanotheruser> I for one would love to have my money secured by a group attempting to solve a problem that will make my money worthless. 15:23 < nmz787_i> .dic flippant 15:23 < nmz787_i> .dict flippant 15:23 < nmz787_i> .g definition flippant 15:23 < yoleaux> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/flippant 15:24 < nmz787_i> .g definition sensemaking 15:24 < yoleaux> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensemaking 15:24 < nmz787_i> .wik sensemeaning 15:24 < yoleaux> nmz787_i: Sorry, I couldn't find article. 15:24 < nmz787_i> .wik sensemaking 15:24 < yoleaux> "Sensemaking is the process by which people give meaning to experience. While this process has been studied by other disciplines under other names for centuries, the term "sensemaking" has primarily marked three distinct but related research areas since the 1970s: Sensemaking was introduced to Human–computer interaction by PARC researchers …" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensemaking 15:24 < kanzure> everyone knows at this point that proof-of-work is broken when used like that 15:25 < kanzure> and it is disgusting that they are lying ot you 15:25 < kanzure> *to you 15:25 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zzxypmeuvrfhlvhu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:25 < kanzure> and even more gross that you don't realize it 15:25 < nmz787_i> ? 15:25 < nmz787_i> bitcoin sucks anyway 15:25 < nmz787_i> :) 15:25 < kanzure> that doesn't mean you get to fuck up this channel with shitty ideas 15:25 < nmz787_i> I don't parse what you mean by "that is a [lacking proper respect or seriousness] violation of [giving meaning to experience]" 15:26 < kanzure> how do you not parse that 15:26 < kanzure> it clearly translates to "this is a complete rejection of every experience that anyone has about bitcoin" 15:26 < nmz787_i> isn't it just saying the work is pointless and thus we shouldn't waste watts on it? 15:27 < kanzure> "and is also clearly not very thorough and doesn't even address the actual issues, and instead just proposes some bad idea instead" 15:27 < nmz787_i> rather use those watts for a real problem? 15:27 < kanzure> yes, it's saying that and a whole host of other things 15:27 < kanzure> but yeah, that's a good place to start 15:27 < kanzure> proof-of-work is not useless 15:28 < nmz787_i> .etymology flippant 15:28 < nmz787_i> .etym flippant 15:28 < kanzure> see bottom of page 11 https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/alts.pdf 15:28 < kanzure> and page 12 15:28 < nmz787_i> 'pparently an extended form of flip (v.). ' 15:28 < nmz787_i> http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=flip&allowed_in_frame=0 15:29 < nmz787_i> '"to fillip, to toss with the thumb," imitative, or perhaps a thinned form of flap, or else a contraction of fillip (q.v.), which also is held to be imitative. Meaning "toss as though with the thumb" is from 1610s. Meaning "to flip a coin" (to decide something) is by 1879. Sense of "get excited" is first recorded 1950; flip (one's) lid "lose one's head, go wild" is from 1949, American English; variant flip (one's) wig attested by 15:29 < nmz787_i> 1952, but the image turns up earlier in popular record reviews' 15:29 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@77.19.94.175.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:29 < kanzure> this phyical cost is exactly how bitcoin works in the first place 15:29 < kanzure> and relacing it with something costless is bogus 15:30 < nmz787_i> cost meaning watts? 15:30 < kanzure> cost meaning some physical scarcity of some sort 15:30 < nmz787_i> drives/RAM to store hashes? 15:30 < kanzure> and as maaku pointed it out, bitcoin is basically using the universal scarcity of entropy 15:30 < nmz787_i> aren't those just getting cheaper and cheaper? 15:30 < nmz787_i> not scarcer 15:30 < kanzure> i don't know what you're asking 15:30 < kanzure> do you know how bitcoin works? 15:31 < nmz787_i> mechanical-turk? 15:31 < nmz787_i> mostly I just know it has to do with some crypto 15:31 < kanzure> if you don't know how bitcoin works, why would you even for a moment think that "foldingcoin" is a good idea? 15:31 < nmz787_i> because it sounds like it uses the hashing to do useful work in addition to just proving security 15:32 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.161.105] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:32 < nmz787_i> because that's how the website designers designed the website to be seen as 15:32 < kanzure> surely you're not that gullible 15:32 < nmz787_i> at face-value it does seem that bitcoin is just a waste of energy, doing work for no reason other than to limit the inflow of new coins 15:33 < kanzure> at face-value bitcoin should make absolutely no sense 15:33 < kanzure> so it is curious that you think it is a waste 15:33 < nmz787_i> right, and protein-folding being useful makes much much more sense 15:33 < kanzure> just because you haven't investigated how it works or why it works doesn't mean that it's wasteful 15:34 < kanzure> and does not mean that protien folding achieves anything nearly similar 15:34 < nmz787_i> idk man, if you know so much, write a bitcoin for dummies webpage, otherwise you shouldn't care so much that people don't know about it 15:35 < kanzure> what? 15:35 < kanzure> that's unrelated 15:35 < kanzure> right now i'm focusing on just you 15:36 < justanotheruser> nmz787_i: Not reading all this scrollback, but I'll say that bitcoin is secured by hashing which is designed to be irreversible and is mostly unoptimizable. Protein folding isn't a cryptographic hash and isn't designed by cryptographers and it shouldn't be used to secure things that require a hash. 15:37 < nmz787_i> ok, from my standpoint specifically, bitcoin hashing seems like it is some useless function that just wastes time, with the constraint on how much time depending on how many other coins exist at that moment. so switching that seemingly useless function into something that it beneficial seems like less of a waste of watts. 15:38 < kanzure> bitcoin mining specifically exists to secure the bitcoin blockchain in the presence of malicious adversaries, without the presence of a central authority 15:38 < kanzure> if you think that a distributed/decentralized consensus like this without a central authority is of zero value, then that's fair but you should say that, instead of that bitcoin's mining is a waste 15:38 < nmz787_i> justanotheruser: yeah but it is pretty much unknown and thus un-reverse-engineerable right now... when we get to the point where that is no longer true, then just switch back to the old hasher 15:39 < justanotheruser> nmz787_i: it isn't un-reverse-engineerable, it just hasn't been reverse engineered. That is security through obscurity. 15:39 < nmz787_i> justanotheruser: so what, we need to figure out protein folding 15:39 < nmz787_i> justanotheruser: which is why i said 'right now' 15:40 < kanzure> that seems to be unrelated 15:40 < kanzure> so look, just because some function x needs to be solved in society does not mean that you should arbitrarily break security protocols 15:40 < nmz787_i> well that webpage delinquentme posted relates the two 15:40 < kanzure> because they are fucking morons 15:40 < justanotheruser> nmz787_i: donate bitcoin to a solution. You can pretty much consider using this currency to be a donation to solving protein folding (but a very ineffecient one where most of the money goes to scammers/pumpers and a little bit going towards solving the problem) 15:41 < nmz787_i> but why not use an actual function (protein folding) which is as-hard-as-crypto-is-today? 15:42 < kanzure> fool i gave you a list of reasons 15:42 < kanzure> read the link 15:42 < nmz787_i> yeah I don't have time for that 15:42 < nmz787_i> I scrolled to pg 11 and 12 15:42 < nmz787_i> didn't see much 15:42 < kanzure> there was a very specific list of reasons 15:42 < kanzure> one very obvious reason (which was in fucking bold typeface, by the way) is that the verification needs to be relatively free or costless or cheap 15:42 < nmz787_i> 'Ease of verification' -- check the PDB database 15:42 < kanzure> no 15:43 < kanzure> pdb is centralized 15:43 < kanzure> if you want a central authority maintaining a ledger then you should say that, instead of dancing around this issue 15:43 < nmz787_i> ? 15:43 < nmz787_i> I never said anything like that 15:44 < kanzure> you just said use pdb 15:44 < kanzure> like two seconds ago 15:44 < nmz787_i> for verifying your protein folding algo was right 15:44 < kanzure> sigh 15:44 < kanzure> yes.... so that's using a central authority... 15:44 < nmz787_i> the whole blockchain would have to verify, that's distributed 15:44 < kanzure> and if you are using a central authority like that then you might as well pack up and go home 15:45 < kanzure> centralized implementations are extremely efficient 15:45 < nmz787_i> efficiency is gut 15:46 < nmz787_i> gūt 15:46 < kanzure> if you are only interested in efficiency, and not decentralized consensus without the presence of a central authority, then you should not really be applying efficiency criticism to bitcoin's design or implementation because their goal is different 15:47 < justanotheruser> kanzure: you should be happy, they're using counterparty :D 15:47 < justanotheruser> hmm o_O 15:48 < justanotheruser> I didn't realize the implications when I said that, but... the mining doesn't accomplish any useful task 15:48 < kanzure> oh this isn't the one that talks about a separate blockchain of protein folding consensus hrm 15:49 < kanzure> hey that makes them slightly less awful 15:49 < kanzure> who brought up mining 15:49 < kanzure> 15:26 < nmz787_i> isn't it just saying the work is pointless and thus we shouldn't waste watts on it? 15:49 < kanzure> i may or may not have lead him to saying that though 15:50 < kanzure> or he genuinely thought that's what they were doing 15:50 < kanzure> and even if he did, all of my same criticism of his lack of reasoning still applies 15:51 < justanotheruser> there is a completely different set of criticisms for this 15:51 < justanotheruser> mining is for consensus 15:52 < kanzure> right 15:52 < kanzure> yeah i agree 15:52 < justanotheruser> and donating bitcoins to folding at home should be equivalent to losing folding coins through inflation and mining 15:52 < kanzure> i definitely did not see the counterparty portion 15:52 < kanzure> but to be fair, there have been some proposals in the past to do protein folding to achieve consensus 15:52 < justanotheruser> so basically this is a speculative asset that loses value (considered donations) by funding protein folding 15:53 < kanzure> yeah i'm not very clear on what the motivation is to want those tokens 15:53 < justanotheruser> so in the end you can donate $100 in bitcoins to protein folding, or you can lose $100 in foldingcoins to donate to protein folding. 15:54 < justanotheruser> which means this is just a speculative asset that has no benefits over bitcoin 15:54 < kanzure> on a related note, i'm also not very convinced that folding@home is a good idea, even if it takes 30 years to achieve stronger results or something, i suspect that protein folding is either the wrong problem or we're going about proteins wrong 15:54 < kanzure> i sent this long-ass email to freitas the other day complaining about the focus on protein folding 15:54 < kanzure> i think that a subset of protein would be an interesting engineering project 15:54 < kanzure> with a reduced set of residues you could possibly restrict yourself to things-that-are-easy-to-predict 15:55 < kanzure> and this might be easier to figure out 15:55 < kanzure> rather than all possible combinations of all 20 residues and 100 residue variants 15:57 < justanotheruser> I have no idea what can be accomplished and no opinion on it. 15:59 < kanzure> eh, it is worth knowing that "protein folding algorithms are presently incapable of correctly predicting all types of folds" 15:59 < kanzure> "and have been this way for a while" 16:05 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:12 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:15 < ParahSailin> have there been any papers resulting from protein folding other than the distributed computing papers 16:18 < kanzure> not very sure. i haven't even been able to find a super-good review of latest protein folding "stuff". 16:19 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:44 -!- phryk_ [~phryk@ip-109-91-122-252.hsi12.unitymediagroup.de] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:48 -!- phryk_ [~phryk@ip-109-91-122-252.hsi12.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:50 -!- phryk_ [~phryk@ip-109-91-122-252.hsi12.unitymediagroup.de] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:51 -!- pasky [~pasky@nikam.ms.mff.cuni.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:04 -!- phryk_ [~phryk@ip-109-91-122-252.hsi12.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:10 -!- phryk_ [~phryk@ip-109-91-122-252.hsi12.unitymediagroup.de] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:12 -!- nmz787_i [nmccorkx@nat/intel/x-csmjxgxeijmlflra] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:13 -!- phryk_ 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nmz787_i [nmccorkx@nat/intel/x-iwebzqwyybbumugw] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:43 -!- Boscop_ [me@178.73.223.92] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:43 -!- Boscop_ [me@178.73.223.92] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:45 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:47 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:48 -!- Viper168_ is now known as Viper168 20:49 < fenn> kanzure: what do you use for ssh on android? 20:49 < kanzure> connectbot 20:50 < fenn> is there a way to increase the font size without messing up resizing? 20:51 < kanzure> tmux has ctrl-shift-plus 20:51 < kanzure> and ctrl-minus 20:53 < fenn> i just want to use terminal emulator but there is no ssh app 20:53 < kanzure> there is a thing on android to install debian into a chroot 20:54 < fenn> yeah that seems overkill 20:54 < kanzure> it's a supercomputer in your pocket broadcasting the entirety of wikipedia 20:54 < kanzure> of course it's ridiculous 20:55 < fenn> this phone has no sd card slot so no wikipedia for me :( 20:55 < fenn> also no usb host 20:56 < fenn> there is a conspiracy afoot 21:04 -!- AmbulatoryCortex [~Ambulator@173-31-9-188.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:06 < fenn> volume keys control font size in connectbot 21:07 < fenn> i'd rather have that mapped to ctrl like in terminal emulator though 21:08 < kanzure> ah whoops yeah i forgot about volume keys 21:08 < kanzure> also if you can figure out why terminal coloration is sometimes not present i would be appreciative 21:09 < kanzure> because it for whatever reason also controls "(" and ")" 21:10 -!- poppingtonic [~poppingto@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:12 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@2602:306:35fa:d500:9cf8:da89:3aec:3d8e] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:14 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@CPE-144-131-35-125.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:15 -!- ebowden 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