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A panel discussion 03:15 < archels> should I pay €100 to attend this? there will also be at least one DeepMind person 03:16 < archels> http://www.snn.ru.nl/v2/ml2015.php 03:22 -!- xrr [~xrr@gprs-inet-65-117.elisa.ee] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:36 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@CPE-144-131-35-125.vic.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:37 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-144-131-35-125.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:42 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-144-131-35-125.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:48 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-90-0.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:50 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 03:51 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:21 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@162-245-22-166.v250d.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:22 < maaku> kanzure: to be precise, I insinuated that embodiment of humans is more complex than we might intuitively guess 04:23 < maaku> besides the typical arguments -- e.g. if you enjoy dance, sports, martial arts, yoga, playing musical instruments, meditation, etc. then these are all tightly linked to your body and you might want to preserve it 04:24 < maaku> it might also be that some aspects of personality are tied to your normal hormonal levels, which are set by interaction with your gut 04:24 < maaku> and how interchangeable is that between people? 04:24 < maaku> i'm not sure we know, so how willing are you to save that $100k in an experiment on yourself to find out? 04:25 < maaku> nmz787: useful proof of work is a contradiction of terms 04:47 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:48 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:51 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 04:54 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:59 -!- narwh4l [~michael@unaffiliated/thesnark] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:21 -!- Guest19359 is now known as abetusk 05:35 -!- phm4242 [~o@boole.london.hackspace.org.uk] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:54 -!- poppingt` [~poppingto@197.237.58.164] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:55 < archels> maaku: interesting thought. I originally reasoned that those peripheral hormonal affairs were pretty low-dimensional--personal, yes, but in such a way that only a few knobs and levers could customise it pretty well to an individual. But perhaps it's higher dimensional than I originally thought. 05:56 < maaku> archels: well, we don't know. if someone does know, correct me with citations please 05:56 -!- poppingtonic [~poppingto@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:56 < maaku> i don't think embodiment is very well studied 05:57 < archels> I'm with you on that one 05:57 * archels is studying embodiment 05:58 < archels> what's your field, maaku? 05:58 < maaku> i mean I do know that if I don't eat well I get irritable. if that interaction is in any way personalized, yet I was unpreserved into an "average" body, would I end up an annoying irritable jerk? 05:59 < maaku> better imho to play it safe and perserve the body as well 05:59 < maaku> archels: bitcoin 05:59 < maaku> at least the last 3-4 years 06:00 < maaku> before that, physics & computational simulation, web development, and scientific computing support 06:00 < maaku> also did some work on visualization (CAVE environments, virtual reality) 06:00 < maaku> but now, basically bitcoin 06:00 < archels> ah, cool 06:00 < maaku> but when I get bored/burned out from that, I dabble in AGI 06:01 < maaku> I've been doing that for the last 4 years or so, in my off time 06:01 < maaku> (since oracle/tool AGI seems to me to be the most viable path to a transhumanist future) 06:02 < maaku> archels: you study embodiment? 06:02 < archels> in the vein of siri/Google voice? 06:03 < maaku> archels: no, "sudo design me a nanofactory constructible with existing tools and materials" 06:04 < maaku> or "design me a set of experiments organized as a decision tree for accomplishing the SENS research objectives" 06:04 < maaku> those are the two questions I'm interested in designing a machine to answer, in that order 06:04 < archels> in my dayjob as a PhD student I work on virtual rodents, giving them some kind of body and hooking it up to a neural network 06:05 < maaku> ah cool 06:05 < archels> in my downtime I'm writing a paper on embodiment in whole-brain emulation 06:05 < archels> I guess technically my title is "computational neuroscientist" 06:05 < archels> my conviction is that one can not really be a computational neuroscientist without thinking about bodies 06:06 < kanzure> embodiment is overrated 06:08 < archels> maybe the philosophers are losing themselves a little with it 06:08 < archels> it's up to us to bring it down and keep it real 06:08 < archels> (in the immortal words of Phil Hartman) 06:09 < kanzure> someone sent me this link after looking at paperbot https://github.com/guerillaopenaccess/goatse 06:10 < kanzure> https://github.com/guerillaopenaccess/goatse/blob/01874577b8b38afa64d340aa851771365cc351ae/goatse_js_builtins/60_libgen.js 06:10 < kanzure> https://github.com/guerillaopenaccess/goatse/blob/01874577b8b38afa64d340aa851771365cc351ae/goatse_js_builtins/41_sciencedirect.js 06:10 < kanzure> man he hardcoded all this shit? why 06:11 < maaku> i got interested in embodiment when I saw a talk at AGI (by Goertzel i think?) about why embodiment is undervalued. that's where I learned about the complexity of the neural-gut interaction, among other things 06:12 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8964836 06:12 < yoleaux> A Heroin Dealer Tells the Silk Road Jury What It Was Like to Sell Drugs Online | Hacker News 06:13 < archels> maaku: the problem is that few people know how to operationalise these ideas; to pull them out of the realm of philosophy and the social sciences and put them to work in a robot 06:13 < maaku> but what sold me was the argument that moral development might be very closely tied to embodiment -- the desire to protect the body, leading to protection of extended-self, which includes your in-group, etc. 06:13 < kanzure> why would that be important 06:13 < maaku> archels: right, agreed 06:14 < archels> agmatine 06:14 < maaku> kanzure: i don't know how to answer that. it would be good if machines acted in our interests, no? 06:14 < archels> whoops, wrong window 06:14 < kanzure> no, it would not be good if it did that 06:14 < kanzure> it would lead people to falsely believe that the machine is incapable of blowing up the planet 06:15 < kanzure> so it would be better if it didn't lie about thta 06:15 < maaku> kanzure: ok well i'm not sure I want to argue against that 06:15 < kanzure> oh wait, i might be using "falsely believe" wrong 06:15 < maaku> my point is more that there is/may be a strong connection between embodiment and things we may think are orthogonal, such as morality 06:15 < kanzure> (and i am clearing using "blowing up the planet" as a substitute for various disaster scenarios) 06:16 < kanzure> *clearly using 06:16 < kanzure> blah typing.. 06:17 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:17 < maaku> so for example, I think embodiment in a virtual environment might be critical to the "sudo design me a nanofactory" bot, for it to learn how the molecular world works and how to design within it 06:17 < kanzure> also, i should clarify: when i said that embodiment is overrated, i meant human embodiment, compared to unembodied humans 06:17 < archels> unembodied human is an oxymoron 06:17 < kanzure> in general i do agree that sensory input and exposure to an environment is a good thing 06:18 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:18 < kanzure> (however, i don't think that simulated reality will ever be better than real reality for this purpose, because of the problem of writing simulators) 06:18 < maaku> kanzure: you may be able to pull an adult out of their body, but I wonder what kind of sociopath you might end up with if you raised an un-embodied baby-brain to adulthood 06:19 < archels> writing simulators is considerably simpler than changing the laws of physics, though =) 06:19 < kanzure> maaku: sociopaths would be perfectly acceptable 06:19 < maaku> hang on there's actually an interesting talk going on. back in 10 min :P 06:19 < kanzure> 1-3% of the population are sociopaths 06:20 < kanzure> wait a sec, huh, that's less than the estimated rate of pedophilia 06:20 < kanzure> they are a minority group hehehe 06:20 < archels> how would an unembodied human communicate? 06:20 < kanzure> would it have to? 06:21 < archels> otherwise, what's the point? 06:21 < kanzure> seeing if it works at all? 06:22 < kanzure> "works" is a very broad term here, but it excludes lots of known failure modes 06:22 < kanzure> i'll stop now 06:22 < archels> how would you know it works? having some random gamma oscillations going on is not very informative 06:22 < archels> to have someone talk back and say "I'm feeling a little woozy", now that's something to write home about =) 06:23 < kanzure> ,title https://github.com/kanzure/papermonk/issues/1 06:23 < kanzure> "gamma oscillations" are these even real 06:23 < kanzure> why do people still talk about oscillations? 06:24 < archels> because both single-cell membrane potentials as well as large-scale local field potentials very clearly and reproducibly exhibit oscillations 06:24 < kanzure> right, i am not referring to the one about single cells 06:25 -!- phm4242 [~o@boole.london.hackspace.org.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:27 -!- poppingt` [~poppingto@197.237.58.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:27 < kanzure> btw, "single cell" and "single molecule" are some of my favorite search terms for google scholar 06:27 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:28 < archels> hehe 06:30 -!- phm4242 [~o@boole.london.hackspace.org.uk] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:32 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:42 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:42 -!- archels [charl@toad.stack.nl] has quit [Changing host] 06:42 -!- archels [charl@unaffiliated/archels] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:44 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:48 < maaku> back 06:49 < maaku> archels: what do you think of OpenCog's effort to do virtual robots embodied in a blocks world? 06:54 < archels> well, it's the right general idea, for sure 06:54 < archels> what I don't like is their approach of just slapping together random algorithms and GOFAI on the control side of things 06:55 < archels> they don't really have a holistic view on how to build brains 06:55 < archels> embodiment is crucial, but it's not a magic bullet and/or all there is to this game 06:55 < maaku> well, agreed on that 06:56 < maaku> i think CogPrime is a mostly solid architecture, if you blur your eyes a bit 06:56 < maaku> but the foundational level could use a great deal more consistency 06:57 < maaku> e.g. they make a big deal about everything interacting via the atomspace, but in the actual implementation the mind agents are not encoded in the atomspace and therefore opaque, and neither is intermediate state stored there 06:58 < maaku> archels: also, rule-based PLN for inference is yuck 06:59 < maaku> i think the "use GOFAI (PLN) where it works, use deep learning (DeSTIN) where it works, use genetic algorithms (MOSES) where it works" etc. is a decent approach though 06:59 < maaku> do i infer correctly that you take issue with that? 07:06 < archels> yeah, this approach is too complex for the task at hand 07:06 < archels> because in the end it's going to be humans like you and me who need to hook up these different submodules into something that actually works 07:06 -!- strangewarp_ [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:06 < archels> for complex networks beginning to approach that of mammalian brains, that becomes an unworkable strategy 07:07 < maaku> what about simpler minds, like an idiot savant able to design nanofactories, but forget about social intelligence, natural language, etc. 07:07 < maaku> ? 07:08 < archels> this is a way too modular view of brains 07:08 < archels> real brains don't decompose that nicely into little submodules 07:08 -!- poppingtonic [~poppingto@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:09 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:10 < maaku> right, i find agreement on that. that's part of why I object to having mind agents outside of the system 07:12 < maaku> agent internals are likely to be deeply interconnected with the system, e.g. the logic engine making inferences not just on the output of genetic search, but also based on search paths taken 07:15 < archels> that's a horrible inside-the-box way of putting it, but yeah =) 07:33 < maaku> yeah so what I am (occasionally) working on is an implementation of CogPrime with a foundation in probabalistic graphical models instead of generalized hypergraphs (kinda like Sigma, which I just found out about) 07:33 < maaku> and with mind agents implemented directly in the graph, in a datalog-derived homoiconic language 07:34 < maaku> so agent operation and evolution can be more transparent and interconnected 07:46 < archels> sounds Minskyan, mind agents 07:48 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pwwusyztnomlgbnj] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:51 < maaku> yeah well their terminloogy. i object to it too 07:51 < maaku> a real brain ends up being a giant interconnected mess with computation constantly forking as it spreads through the network 07:52 < maaku> *a real artificial brain 07:52 < maaku> the idea of a bunch of modular agents existing independently of each other is a weakness of OpenCog imho 07:53 < maaku> it's a reasonable experiment to understand the architecture better, but it won't lead to a superhuman AGI 08:32 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-90-0.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:00 -!- Merovoth [~Merovoth@gateway/tor-sasl/merovoth] has quit [] 09:01 -!- xrr [~xrr@gprs-inet-65-117.elisa.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:01 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@134.134.137.71] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:02 -!- Jeeves [~Merovoth@gateway/tor-sasl/merovoth] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:03 -!- Jeeves [~Merovoth@gateway/tor-sasl/merovoth] has left ##hplusroadmap [] 09:14 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:14 < nmz787_i> maaku: I didn't think I was complaining about the proof of work, I thought I was complaining about the function to create new coins, which won't happen after some magic number of coins is reached right? something like 21 million? 09:15 < nmz787_i> so why not create coins based only on how well we can solve protein structure, becuase by the time we know how to solve protein structure, I would presume we'd be compleletely out of a scarcity-economy where things like money seem more important 09:15 < nmz787_i> then all you'd need is the proof-of-work, not the coin generator 09:16 -!- strangewarp_ [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:18 -!- poppingtonic [~poppingto@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:26 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:28 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:28 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 09:28 -!- justanot1eruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:31 -!- justanot1eruser is now known as justanotheruser1 09:31 -!- justanotheruser1 is now known as justanotheruser 09:32 -!- Merovoth [~Merovoth@gateway/tor-sasl/merovoth] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:33 -!- strangewarp_ [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:33 -!- xrr [~xrr@gprs-inet-65-117.elisa.ee] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:34 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:47 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@185.7.192.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:49 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@185.7.192.138] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:49 -!- strangewarp_ [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 09:51 < nmz787_i> http://www.zyvexlabs.com/Products/STMControlSystem.html 09:52 < nmz787_i> .title 09:52 < yoleaux> Welcome to Zyvex Labs 09:54 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pwwusyztnomlgbnj] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 09:55 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@185.7.192.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:00 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dfprohppglqxtrmr] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:15 -!- sheena [~home@S0106c8be196316d1.ok.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:16 -!- sheena [~home@S0106c8be196316d1.ok.shawcable.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:47 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@162-245-22-166.v250d.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:58 < jrayhawk> http://www.pacb.com/smrtgrant/ weirdest "contest" 11:02 -!- Carl_eighthdawn2 [~Carl_Mill@wikipedia/CJMiller] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:03 * Carl_eighthdawn2 contemplates hexachromacy 11:03 < Carl_eighthdawn2> (namely UV B G R and two kinds of IR) 11:11 -!- cntrational [~sid@49.205.77.125] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:11 -!- phryk_ [~phryk@ip-109-91-122-252.hsi12.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:12 -!- Carl_eighthdawn2 [~Carl_Mill@wikipedia/CJMiller] has left ##hplusroadmap ["Leaving"] 11:13 -!- phryk [~phryk@ip-109-91-122-252.hsi12.unitymediagroup.de] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:32 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:37 < kanzure> .title 11:37 < yoleaux> Pacific Biosciences 2015 SMRT Grant Program 11:37 < cntrational> idea for a future english: a becomes an when attached to vowel initial words, even when separated by a non-vowel word, and then vowels drop/consonants drop 11:39 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:40 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:44 < maaku> nmz787_i: I think you're confused about how bitcoin works. There is not anything which I can pattern match to "a function to create new coins" 11:45 < maaku> anyone know the story with zyvex? are they still working towards atomicly precise manufacturing? 11:45 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@134.134.137.71] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:46 < maaku> most of the info on their website is 10 years old 11:47 -!- cntrational [~sid@49.205.77.125] has quit [Quit: o/] 11:47 -!- phryk [~phryk@ip-109-91-122-252.hsi12.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:48 -!- nmz787_i [nmccorkx@nat/intel/x-zpuyxzsqzzqluiwi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:48 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-56-3-185.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:50 < kanzure> i don't have recent information but i am on good terms with the nanorex people :p 11:54 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:55 < eudoxia> last i hear they were working on this thing called patterned atomic layer epitaxy 11:55 < eudoxia> using a scanning probe microscope to remove hydrogen from a silicon surface in UHV, then filling it with silylene (SiH_2) so it forms a layer, repeat ad infinitum 11:56 < eudoxia> james von ehr claimed you could make three dimensional objects by using germanium instead of silicon for some of the layers, building the silicon object inside a germanium "casing" that would be etched away 11:56 < eudoxia> then you grab the finished nanopart using a scanning probe and place it within whatever machine you're building 11:56 < eudoxia> but the last paper about this was mid 2012 i think 11:56 -!- superkuh [~superkuh@unaffiliated/superkuh] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:56 -!- the8thbit|work [~8bit@66.186.100.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:57 -!- phm4242 [~o@boole.london.hackspace.org.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:57 -!- superkuh [~superkuh@unaffiliated/superkuh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:57 -!- the8thbit|work [~8bit@66.186.100.194] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:58 < eudoxia> maaku: ^ 12:10 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@77.88.71.230] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:14 < maaku> i gathered that was their approach from their contribution to the nanotechnology roadmap, but that was some time ago 12:16 < eudoxia> there was also phillip moriarty, who got a grant to implement a (limited?) version of the minimal toolset for diamond mechanosynthesis 12:16 < maaku> i wonder if they are working on it full time, or if it is more of a long term research goal 12:16 < eudoxia> http://www.molecularassembler.com/Papers/MinToolset.pdf 12:16 < eudoxia> the grant was to end in 2013, but then it got extended to 2014, not sure what came out of it 12:17 < maaku> yeah, i've been watching his publication list, and there's been nothing breathtaking 12:17 < kanzure> our vasp person bailed on us 12:17 < eudoxia> there was something about flipping the angle of dimers on silicon surfaces from 2012 12:17 < maaku> mostly just incremental progress on making STM/AFM more precise 12:17 < kanzure> she was like "you want me to do vasp in my spare time too? hellz no" 12:18 < kanzure> (freitas does lots of vasp thing with some russians i think.) 12:18 < maaku> vasp? 12:18 < kanzure> simulator 12:18 < kanzure> it does things.. 12:18 < maaku> oh ok 12:18 < kanzure> in the papers, etc 12:18 < maaku> didn't recognize it non-capitalized 12:18 < kanzure> yes academics are terrible at naming things 12:18 < kanzure> "BITCOIN SCRIPT CODE" 12:18 < maaku> i know freitas and merkle split from zyvex when they went down the silicon layering approach 12:19 < maaku> heh Bitcoin Script is a particularly bad one 12:20 < kanzure> everything is "a code" in academialand 12:20 < maaku> We've started calling it rogrammable signatures here 12:20 < maaku> or "codes" -- i don't know why it gets pluralized 12:20 < kanzure> "poorly specified set of opcodes for some sort of stack machine" is the formally accepted definition =p 12:21 < kanzure> what's funny is that leetspeak stumbled into "the codes" all on their own 12:23 < maaku> it's extremely well specified. there's 1000 lines of C++ specification ;) 12:23 < eudoxia> the latest thing from moriarty: https://thewinnower.com/papers/mechanochemistry-at-the-single-bond-limit-towards-deterministic-epitaxy 12:24 < maaku> ah great. this looks like a good summary of where he's at 12:25 < eudoxia> it's from this month too 12:25 < eudoxia> >9. [Impact]. To develop methods of engaging new audiences via YouTube, song-writing, and video gaming. 12:25 < eudoxia> yes but 12:25 < eudoxia> nanofactories first pls 12:38 < kanzure> haha audiences 12:44 -!- Viper168__ [~Viper@node163.70.251.72.1dial.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:45 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:46 < kanzure> https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/04/warrant-canary-faq 12:46 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:47 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-23-23-53-200.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:47 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-198-176-86.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:56 < maaku> eudoxia: lol 13:00 -!- Viper168__ [~Viper@node163.70.251.72.1dial.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:22 -!- nmz787_i [nmccorkx@nat/intel/x-zpuyxzsqzzqluiwi] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:22 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 13:23 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:28 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@192.55.55.37] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:32 < nmz787_i> maaku: you mean there isn't two parts to bitcoin, making coins, and verifying transactions? 13:32 < maaku> nmz787_i: what do you mean by making coins? 13:32 < nmz787_i> they have to be generated, which is what the miners do I thought 13:32 < maaku> coins are minted in bitcoin in a relatively uninsteresting aspect of transaction verification 13:33 < maaku> no, minting of new coins really has nothing to do with mining 13:33 < kanzure> nmz787_i: i would be curious to hear how you think bitcoin works, even speculatively, because maaku is about to tell you how it actually works 13:33 < kanzure> and it would be curious to have a baseline for how reasonably clever people, such as yourself, think bitcoin works, prior to interacting with maaku 13:33 < kanzure> *i would be 13:33 < maaku> -- i will refrain from saying more for a few minutes then 13:33 < kanzure> hehe 13:33 < kanzure> maaku: gotta have your control group 13:35 < nmz787_i> I thought there were some max # of coins hardcoded somewhere, with a coin generation function that takes more and more time as you approach the max # 13:35 < nmz787_i> then there is some kind of key sharing shit that can't be rainbow-tabled for transactions 13:35 < nmz787_i> or is too-hard-for-todays-computers to reverse/rainbow-table 13:36 < nmz787_i> I haven't studied it at all though, other than a few rather dumn youtube videos 13:36 < kanzure> who gets coins? 13:37 < nmz787_i> whoever ran the generate function 13:39 < kanzure> i've run out of ideas already 13:40 < nmz787_i> for? 13:40 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:41 < maaku> for questioning your knowledge of bitcoin i presuem 13:41 < maaku> so here's how it actually works 13:42 < maaku> coins are minted as a result of a special exception to the transaction validation rules 13:42 < kanzure> every node in the network has a copy of the blockchain, and they are relaying transactions and blocks to each other 13:42 < kanzure> then they store some blocks based off of some rules 13:42 < maaku> in a bitcoin transaction, the inputs must be >= the outputs, and any difference is the fee 13:42 < kanzure> they do this because there needs to be a database of transactions that have happened 13:43 < kanzure> the only way to know whether or not you have the money is to have observed all prior transactions (and thus why the nodes store this data, like the blockchain or just the utxos (unspent outputs)) 13:43 < maaku> in every valid block there is single a transaction of a special form that is allowed to have outputs exceed intputs by sum(fees) + subsidy(height) 13:43 < maaku> where sum(fees) is the aggregate fees for all txns in the block, and subsidy(height) is a deterministic function of height 13:44 < maaku> (what kanzure is saying is also correct) 13:44 < maaku> mining is a totally separate process 13:45 < maaku> basically anyone that has observed the entire historical chain and has the current state of the ledger, and bunch together some unconfirmed transactions and call it a block 13:45 < nmz787_i> ok, so wasn't I talking about mining, or at least in regards to that protein thing? 13:45 < nmz787_i> not verification? 13:46 < kanzure> that protein thing turned out to be something different 13:46 < kanzure> but if you pretend we were talking about gridcoin then my comments still apply 13:46 < kanzure> (justanotheruser pointed out that foldingcoin is not gridcoin) 13:47 < nmz787_i> wtf is gridcoin 13:47 < maaku> oh i see it is a counterparty think 13:47 < maaku> *thing 13:47 < maaku> i thought it was a gridcoin clone as well 13:48 < kanzure> they should probably say specifically "This is not gridcoin, are ideas are terrible for entirely different reasons" 13:48 < kanzure> *our ideas are 13:49 < kanzure> nmz787_i: gridcoin was a project that had all of the properties that i assumed foldingcoin had 13:49 < kanzure> (and was also based on protein folding) 13:49 < maaku> ugh. what a braindead way to implement it 13:49 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:49 < maaku> you can inject signed signatures into the result output before submission 13:50 < maaku> and have people join a team instead 13:50 < kanzure> nmz787_i: so the reason why "query the BOINC central server to verify balances" is a bad idea is because bitcoin is specifically designed for the opposite paradigm 13:50 < nmz787_i> i guess i just assumed you only could generate coins if you successfully folded a protein, and to verify your success would use the blockchain verification stuff 13:50 < maaku> why force people to have a username with their address in it? 13:50 < nmz787_i> is BOINC equivalent to PDB? 13:50 < maaku> kanzure: it works fine as a centralized distribution mechanism though 13:51 < maaku> nmz787_i: BOINC is the software underlying folding@home 13:51 < maaku> we're exploring the exact same thing for the freicoin initial distribution 13:51 < nmz787_i> wouldn't everyone just have a copy of the PDB? 13:51 < nmz787_i> wouldn't that be the blockchain to begin? 13:51 < kanzure> pdb is maintained by a centralized authority 13:51 < nmz787_i> but you can wget it 13:51 < kanzure> er.... 13:51 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@77.88.71.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:52 < kanzure> when your bitcoin node connects to the bitcoin network, you do not receive data signed by a central authority 13:53 < nmz787_i> for de novo sequences I guess you'd need a protein synthesizer and some enzyme assay that would change color or something if the thing folded right 13:53 < kanzure> instead, you receive correct data according t the rules of the software, and based on different observed blocks and transactions from the network 13:53 < kanzure> *according to the 13:53 < kanzure> so just downloading a data set is not enough 13:53 < nmz787_i> but when I connected to bitcoin a year ago, my client downloaded a ton of data from somewhere 13:53 < kanzure> indeed 13:53 < nmz787_i> it wasn't just calculating it all 13:53 < kanzure> it was verifying that data based on some rules 13:53 < nmz787_i> ok 13:54 < nmz787_i> so we did that already and happen to have it cached in a central db 13:54 < nmz787_i> I guess you're saying that someone could just copy the PDB file, and emit that as it's 'hey I was successful' message 13:54 < kanzure> so remember, yesterday i mentioned that the purpose or design of bitcoin is such that there's no central authority that maintains the ledger of transactions and balances 13:54 < nmz787_i> and then when the other nodes compared, it would match 13:54 < nmz787_i> well yeah but we can't all have synchrotrons this year 14:04 -!- Merovoth [~Merovoth@gateway/tor-sasl/merovoth] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:10 -!- Merovoth [~Merovoth@gateway/tor-sasl/merovoth] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:13 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-144-131-35-125.vic.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:17 < kanzure> maaku: halp 14:25 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@109.179.2.4.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:29 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:31 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:34 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@162-245-22-166.v250d.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:36 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-144-131-35-125.vic.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:37 -!- AmbulatoryCortex [~Ambulator@173.31.9.188] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:37 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-144-131-35-125.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:42 < jrayhawk> https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/560898568748531712 'Tesla P85D 0 to 60mph acceleration will improve by ~0.1 sec soon via over-the-air software update to inverter algorithm' 14:42 < jrayhawk> the future is here 14:43 -!- lichen_ [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:44 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@CPE-144-131-35-125.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:44 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-144-131-35-125.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:45 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:45 -!- lichen_ [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:45 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:46 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:52 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:54 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:55 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-144-131-35-125.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:55 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@CPE-144-131-35-125.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:59 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:59 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:00 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:01 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 15:01 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:07 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:08 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:16 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@109.179.2.4.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:29 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-56-3-185.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:43 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@CPE-144-131-35-125.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:44 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-144-131-35-125.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:46 -!- nickjohnson [sid789@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bepzvdrtlnqkaubj] has quit [] 15:46 -!- nickjohnson [sid789@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qdbsshkpxxttwsrm] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:48 < nmz787_i> "Pembient, part of the first IndieBio SF class, is developing products that are genetically and spectrographically similar to rhino horn and they intend to introduce these products into the market as alternatives to rhino horn procured from the wild. Using science to fight poaching!" 15:48 < nmz787_i> why spectrographically, and not molecularly? 15:48 < nmz787_i> surely there are spectrographic impostors 15:52 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-144-131-35-125.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:52 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@CPE-144-131-35-125.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:01 -!- strages [sid11297@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uzelqwojbqubjsdq] has quit [] 16:02 -!- EnabrinTain [sid11525@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hqrymijoewuxyqxf] has quit [] 16:02 -!- strages [sid11297@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jnzalludbpiiavwe] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:03 -!- EnabrinTain [sid11525@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-evootrkelbwffhfi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:17 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:26 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@192.55.55.37] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:29 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:30 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-144-131-35-125.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:34 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-144-131-35-125.vic.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:36 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@134.134.137.71] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:42 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@134.134.137.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:09 -!- justanot1eruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:10 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:10 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Client Quit] 17:10 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:12 -!- justanot1eruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Client Quit] 17:13 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-144-131-35-125.vic.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:15 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-144-131-35-125.vic.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:16 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-144-131-35-125.vic.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:18 < kanzure> that doesn't seem very fair to me 17:18 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-144-131-35-125.vic.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:18 < kanzure> i thought the law was that anyone selling rhino horn is supposed to be imprisoned 17:18 < kanzure> at least, that was what we dug up in here when looking into elephant tusk 17:19 < kanzure> maybe the law isn't as specific about rhino horn 17:31 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@162-245-22-166.v250d.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:36 < dpk> long shot 17:36 < dpk> anyone have a Solaris box I can test on? 17:36 < dpk> or IRIX, AIX 17:37 < superkuh> Why not a virtual machine? 17:38 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:41 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:42 < dpk> right, this should be a five minute job 17:43 < dpk> setting up a virtual machine will take like an hour 17:45 < dpk> ah, found an AMI for EC2 17:52 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:19 -!- cntrational [~sid@49.205.77.125] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:31 -!- cntrational [~sid@49.205.77.125] has quit [Quit: nevermind~] 18:37 -!- phm4242 [~o@boole.london.hackspace.org.uk] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:42 -!- comma8|BNC is now known as comma9 18:43 -!- comma9 is now known as comma8 18:53 < JayDugger> Good evening, everyone. 19:59 -!- Burninate [~Burn@pool-71-241-254-181.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:59 -!- Burnin8 [~Burn@pool-71-241-254-181.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:14 -!- night is now known as night|pub 20:14 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:15 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:41 -!- Burninate [~Burn@pool-71-241-254-181.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:42 -!- Proteus1 [~Proteus@75-163-72-25.omah.qwest.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:43 -!- Proteus [~Proteus@unaffiliated/proteus] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:43 -!- Burnin8 [~Burn@pool-71-241-254-181.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:04 -!- night|pub is now known as night 21:25 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:29 -!- AmbulatoryCortex [~Ambulator@173.31.9.188] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:34 < kanzure> another intro to bitcoin video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LMS0PIzGh8 21:36 -!- cntrational [~sid@49.205.77.125] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:40 < justanotheruser> best video IMO https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lx9zgZCMqXE 21:40 < justanotheruser> ,title 21:40 < justanotheruser> .title 21:40 < yoleaux> How Bitcoin Works Under the Hood - YouTube 21:43 < kanzure> http://www.csparks.com/bmw/CarPriceVsIncome.xhtml 21:44 < kanzure> i was not aware these were all cheap cars 21:45 < kanzure> (10x over the price of a bath tub with wheels is not particularly enlightening) 21:49 < kanzure> justanotheruser: that is surprisingly long. who has time to make these? 21:49 < justanotheruser> "CuriousInventor" 21:49 < kanzure> hmph 21:49 < justanotheruser> I don't think it's worth your time since you won't learn anything new 21:50 < justanotheruser> unless you want to evaluate it to see if its worth recommending 21:50 < kanzure> nah, now i have to watch it, so that i can deanonymize people who watched it and then later express subtly wrong opinions to me based on them watching that video 21:50 < justanotheruser> I actually couldn't find any errors in the video iirc 21:51 < kanzure> hm 21:51 < kanzure> i started writing a coin selection test framework, but i think instead i'm gonna sleep now 21:51 < justanotheruser> neat 21:51 < justanotheruser> gn 21:54 < kanzure> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ujuOikKgAE 22:13 -!- xrr [~xrr@gprs-inet-65-117.elisa.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:13 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:34 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dfprohppglqxtrmr] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 22:53 -!- phm4242 [~o@boole.london.hackspace.org.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:56 -!- cntrational [~sid@49.205.77.125] has quit [Quit: o/] 22:58 -!- phm4242 [~o@boole.london.hackspace.org.uk] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:20 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:41 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:43 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:48 -!- Viper168_ is now known as Viper168 --- Log closed Fri Jan 30 00:00:39 2015