--- Log opened Sat Jan 31 00:00:40 2015
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01:11 < JayDugger> Any activity using a blockchain for inventory control?
01:11 < JayDugger> I'd ask in a BTC channel, but I don't want to wade through the noise of speculators and wishful groupthinking.
01:12 < ebowden> paperbot: http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/130702/ncomms3114/full/ncomms3114.html
01:39 < justanotheruser> JayDugger: does inventory control require trustless consensus?
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04:02 < JayDugger> justanotheruser: Yes.
04:03 < JayDugger> justanotheruser: Rather, I imagine it can benefit from it.
04:04 < justanotheruser> JayDugger: how?
04:04 < justanotheruser> inventory?
04:04 < justanotheruser> like a companies inventory? Where a group of people count what they have and you believe them?
04:04 < JayDugger> Again, yes.
04:05 < JayDugger> In particular, I imagine stock and supply for internal uses, rather than inventory for sale.
04:06 < justanotheruser> JayDugger: what benefit does a blockchain provide over the people counting signing a message including the counts?
04:10 < justanotheruser> that question applies to internal uses as well
04:10 < justanotheruser> why can't they workers just commit to a log of all inventory changes the company manages
04:11 < JayDugger> Wow...you alternate good questions with bad ones.
04:11 < JayDugger> Thank you for posing "what benefit does a blockchain provide over the people counting signing a message including the counts?"
04:12 < JayDugger> That gives me something to consider.
04:12 < justanotheruser> since my second question is a bad one, do you have an answer?
04:12 < JayDugger> Theft, pilferage, laziness...
04:13 < JayDugger> None of which a blockchain magically prevents, I admit.
04:13 < justanotheruser> yes, I was about to ask that...
04:14 < JayDugger> Socratic method aside, have you got an answer to my original question?
04:14 < justanotheruser> which one?
04:15 < justanotheruser> 04:10 < JayDugger> Any activity using a blockchain for inventory control?
04:15 < JayDugger> Yes.
04:15 < justanotheruser> maybe by some company using the blockchain buzzword but not understanding what the blockchain is useful for.
04:15 < justanotheruser> www.coindesk.com/ibm-executive-block-chain-internet-of-things/
04:15 < justanotheruser> I actually emailed them.. never got a response
04:16 < JayDugger> I vaguely remember that article. Thank you for the link.
04:17 < justanotheruser> just an fyi, I think they are either idiots for doing this, or smart enough to promote their product with the buzzword blockchain and it will end up looking nothing like a blockchain
04:19 < justanotheruser> Socratic method aside, within a company you are already trusting the CEO and his board of directors along with the US government (fraud law enforcement) to not steal your ownership of the company and dividends. It might be interesting for the US government to do some timestamping for businesses
04:19 < JayDugger> Yes, rereading that article reveals why it didn't stick the first time.
04:19 < justanotheruser> inconsistencies in the database could be found simply by having them publish a log of changes and have individual auditors and shareholders check it too
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04:20 < JayDugger> I think you grossly overestimate the technological savvy of your average bureaucrat and average businessman.
04:21 < justanotheruser> JayDugger: then you can't expect a blockchain to keep them accountable either
04:21 < justanotheruser> if there is a fork (or whatever the equivalent would be called in centralized auditable accounting systems) then that could be proven
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05:36 < kanzure> auuuuuugh motion to ban JayDugger
05:42 < phm4242> reason(s)?
05:45 < archels> he says "good morning" a lot
05:45 < archels> I mean, mornings? good?
05:45 < archels> burn at the stake!
05:49 < pasky> now he wished a good evening too
05:50 < maaku> kanzure: if an apt-get for electronics could be done more easily (or an apt-get for 3d printing), I'd do that
05:50 < maaku> walk before you run
05:51 < justanotheruser> kanzure: its your channel. If you ban his it's probably appropriate to ban nmz as well though :P
05:53 < kanzure> phm4242: misappropration of lbockchain concepts
05:54 < kanzure> archels: greetings are not entirely banworthy
05:54 < kanzure> maaku: 3d printing doesn't work- it's not like people are writing millions of pages of documentation about how to make your 3d printed part. and plus, there's usually no dependencies anyway.
05:54 < kanzure> justanotheruser: er, what would be the reasons to ban nmz787?
05:55 < justanotheruser> wasn't he misunderstanding bitcoin (in a way that is probably worse) with foldingcoin?
05:56 < justanotheruser> well I guess I don't know your reason to want to ban JayDugger, but I assume its misunderstanding the blockchain
05:56 < kanzure> right.. i think the banworthy offense there was "pretending to understand bitcoin" or something
05:56 < phm4242> kanzure: Which concept did it misappropriate?
05:56 < kanzure> phm4242: everything
05:56 < justanotheruser> lol
05:57 < justanotheruser> phm4242: the PoW part
05:57 < kanzure> the inventory part
05:57 < kanzure> the blockchain part
05:57 < kanzure> all of it
05:57 < justanotheruser> wait is phm nmz or JayDugger
05:57 < kanzure> er, it was JayDugger
05:57 < kanzure> you were just having the conversation with him
05:57 < justanotheruser> yes, I thought it was nmz for some reason
05:58 < kanzure> i suppose i've heard stranger things?
06:00 < justanotheruser> It's not that bad IMO, foldingcoin is more fundamental
06:01 < phm4242> <jrayhawk> Yeah, I'm quite surprised that didn't happen. I personally didn't do it because watching kanzure bash his head against a wall for several hours is actually kinda funny.
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06:03 < justanotheruser> It's not *that* obvious that when you are merely using the blockchain as an auditing tool rather than a tool to guarantee payment without trust, that you can have a centralized system and produce a fraud proof by auditing the companies records in a similar way.
06:04 < kanzure> normal databases should be obvious
06:04 < kanzure> there are very very few excuses
06:05 < justanotheruser> yes, but fraud proofs aren't
06:05 < justanotheruser> if you want a similar effect, you can have the company broadcast timestamped records to whatever auditing parties are interested and they can show conflicting messages as proof
06:07 < justanotheruser> but even with a blockchain being unnecessary, I wonder how useful such a fraud proof would be. Seems like there would be many tricks around it. "This inventory is defective". "This business meeting cost $1million (it really cost $500k)"
06:08 < phm4242> timestamps. Why didn't satoshi think of that?
06:08 < justanotheruser> ...
06:09 < justanotheruser> read what I said again. They accomplish the same thing so the blockchain isn't necessary. I'm not saying it can't be accomplished with a blockchain, I'm saying theres no reason to use a blockchain.
06:10 < phm4242> So why did satoshi?
06:10 < justanotheruser> why did he what?
06:10 < phm4242> use a blockchain
06:11 < justanotheruser> for trustless decentralized consensus
06:11 < maaku> phm4242: bitcoin is solving a different problem
06:11 < maaku> distributed concensus with an anonymous and dynamic membership set requires a blockchain
06:11 < maaku> it's basically the only thing which does
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06:13 < pasky> phm4242: you want your decisions recorded so they can't be tampered with in the future, but the key here is whether only a single party is making decisions or whether anyone can do them
06:14 < kanzure> you shoud be aware that phm4242 is a known troll and wastes your time
06:14 < pasky> anyone knows why is it so friggin cold in tokyo (indoors) in winter?
06:15 < pasky> japan, pinnacle of civilization, and they are woefully unaware of concepts of heating rooms
06:15 < pasky> s/concepts/the concept/
06:16 < phm4242> justanotheruser: So when you were talking about 'broadcast timestamped records', trust is not an issue?
06:18 < maaku> pasky: the japanese 'aesthetic' is no insulation
06:19 < pasky> noone isn't sitting on tatami around here anyway
06:20 < kanzure> have you two synchronized your terribe ai plans yet?
06:25 < phm4242> kanzure defines trolling as 'getting told why you're wrong'
06:26 < kanzure> haha
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06:26 < kanzure> keep trying
06:26 < kanzure> aren't you the island fucker?
06:26 < phm4242> the what/
06:27 < kanzure> read the logs
06:27 < phm4242> Why?
06:28 < phm4242> should I grep 'island fucker' or what?
06:29 < kanzure> 12:18 < p42___> huh? I want you to come, but I don't want to use violence.
06:29 < kanzure> your memory sucks and i hate you for this
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06:29 < phm4242> What does that have to do with fucking islands?
06:30 < kanzure> i just told you to read the log, and now where to find it in the logs, so now you can kindly fuck off and go read it
06:30 < phm4242> I've read the logs already. I still have no idea what you're talking about 'island fucker' for
06:30 < maaku> kanzure: dereference "you two"
06:30 < kanzure> maaku: pasky
06:30 < pasky> I admit I forgot maaku has ai plans :)
06:31 < maaku> pasky: aparantly we're both working on (terrible) ai plans
06:31 < pasky> maaku: do you have ai plans? what ai plans?
06:31 < pasky> maaku: my ai plan is https://github.com/brmson
06:31 < maaku> i'm happy to sync on that although i'm literally about to go afk. but my bouncer will catch anything
06:31 < pasky> me too
06:31 < maaku> awesome. i could use an open source watson
06:32 < pasky> well of course my ai plans are more than that, but for the rest, i could use an open source watson
06:32 < maaku> my plan in one sentence is a fixed CogPrime design with planning engines and model discovery suitable for answering "sudo build me a nanofactory design implementable with current tech" when hooked up to a density-functional quantum simulator for learning/testing
06:33 < maaku> but the next stuff i want to do after that requires watson like capabilities ("design me experiments for accomplishing the SENS objectives, organized as a decision tree")
06:34 < maaku> anyway, going afk for a number of hours (but online capturing logs)
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06:34 < pasky> i think we'll catch each other later, these are very similar to my plans actually but starting with the watson part seemed most meaningful
06:35 < pasky> i want that to do resolution for things like "nanofactory design implementable with current tech", eventually
06:35 < pasky> but ideally it'd be useful and making some money for its development much earlier than that
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06:36 < maaku> i don't think you need watson like tech for the nanofactory example
06:36 < maaku> but we can discuss that later. afk for reals
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06:37 < pasky> possibly, maybe I didn't really get the example
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06:40 < justanotheruser> phm4242: trust is an issue, but it isn't any less of an issue with a blockchain
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06:41 < phm4242> justanotheruser: What are you talking about? Not wanted to trust people is why the blockchain exists.
06:42 < kanzure> that's the stupidest thing you've ever said to me
06:42 < phm4242> why?
06:42 < kanzure> just because someone makes a transaction that includes some extra data does not make that data trustless you moron
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06:42 < kanzure> how would you even suggest that
06:42 < kanzure> why are you wasting our time
06:43 < justanotheruser> kanzure: is this the stalker?
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06:43 < kanzure> no
06:43 < kanzure> definitely not
06:43 < phm4242> I do stalk Kanz. He just don't know about it.
06:43 < justanotheruser> okay, I thought you were saying he was with 12:18 < p42___> huh? I want you to come, but I don't want to use violence.
06:44 < kanzure> no i was answering his question about where in the logs
06:44 < justanotheruser> I mean the stalker would want you to come to his island to thaw his mom
06:44 < kanzure> (that was aorund the time he revealed that he was a fucking idiot)
06:44 < kanzure> *around
06:44 < chris_99> look at the IP of  p42___ ;)
06:44 < justanotheruser> yes
06:44 < justanotheruser> it is a hackerspace
06:44 < justanotheruser> SOMETHING YOU ARE PROMOTING kanzure
06:44 < phm4242> :-0
06:44 < kanzure> yes hackerspaces often attract totally crazy morons
06:45 < justanotheruser> 09:40 < phm4242> justanotheruser: What are you talking about? Not wanted to trust people is why the blockchain exists.
06:45 < kanzure> justanotheruser: http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/2015-01-23.log
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06:45 < kanzure> whoops
06:45 < phm4242> < jrayhawk> Kanzure is not gracious.
06:45 < maaku> so aparantly my wife is delayed and i have more time than I thought
06:45 < justanotheruser> Wouldn't it be great if anything done with a blockchain was trust free?
06:45 < kanzure> http://gnusha.org/logs/2015-01-23.log
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06:46 < maaku> phm4242: there are very few things about the block chain which are trust-free
06:46 < chris_99> nmz787, about?
06:46 < maaku> it does achieve a dynamic, anonymous membership set signature. but that signature covers very little
06:46 < ebowden> paperbot: http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/130702/ncomms3114/full/ncomms3114.html
06:46 < kanzure> no way man anything i publish in a transaction is 100% true
06:47 < kanzure> i can't even say it with a straight face :/
06:48 < maaku> and its only what that signature covers, and implications from the validation logic, that you can say is trust-free
06:48 < justanotheruser> anything i publish n a transaction is 100% true :|
06:48 < justanotheruser> there we go
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06:49 < phm4242> maaku: You mean you mean blockchain technology doesn't work?
06:49 < justanotheruser> okay, I change my ban vote to yes
06:49 < kanzure> give me a reason to not ban you
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06:50 < maaku> phm4242: did you read what I said? it works perfectly fine for what it does. which is a lot less than a lot of people think, but sufficient to build an economy on
06:50 < phm4242> maaku: So what do you mean by 'there are very few things about the block chain which are trust-free'?
06:50 < justanotheruser> When I was much younger I thought everyone making a dumb statement was a troll, then I realized there were people so incapable of understanding a concept that they come off as trolls, and now I don't know what to believe
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06:51 <@kanzure> justanotheruser: generally, i kick out anyone who is terrible at general reasoning
06:51 < justanotheruser> oh wait
06:51 <@kanzure> justanotheruser: i don't have enough time to train people to not be idiots
06:51 < maaku> anyways. pasky: so kanzure will rip me a new one for not having worked this out in detail, but I think you can represent current capability in a formal planning language
06:52 < justanotheruser> I thought jaydugger was tastybuds this first part of the reading
06:52 <@kanzure> and idiocy only slows us down
06:52 < justanotheruser> what a twist
06:52 <@kanzure> JayDugger is a long-time regular, practically ancient
06:52 < justanotheruser> .. so phm4242 is jaydugger?
06:52 <@kanzure> uh, no
06:52 < justanotheruser> wat
06:52 < maaku> e.g. AFM depassivation like Zyvex and Moriarty are working on, more blunt AFM tooltip manipulation (which might be probabalistic), etc.
06:53 < justanotheruser> 08:56 < justanotheruser> wait is phm nmz or JayDugger
06:53 < justanotheruser> 08:56 < kanzure> er, it was JayDugger
06:53 <@kanzure> the one asking about inventory was JayDugger
06:53 < justanotheruser> so this is tastybuds?
06:53 <@kanzure> that's a third person
06:54 < justanotheruser> damn, this is a complicated story
06:55 <@kanzure> maaku: hey at least you accurately represent my complaints
06:55 < justanotheruser> so you wanted to ban jay, phm asked why, and now you want to ban him
06:55 <@kanzure> i want to man pete4242 because he's an idiot
06:55 <@kanzure> *ban
06:55 < justanotheruser> you can see how I thought they were the same person :P
06:56 < pasky> maaku: i don't really know anything about nanotech
06:56 < maaku> pasky: what I need the watson-like tech for is when we apply the same AGI planner to biology
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06:57 < maaku> because although ab-initio quantum simulators are good enough to do nanotech work, they don't scale up to protiens
06:57 < maaku> let alone whole cell simulations
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06:57 < maaku> so i imagine that part of the research objective would have to be accomplished by a watson-like understanding of the existing literature
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06:58 < maaku> of course if you have a nanofactory, bootstrapping additional capabilities should be a solved problem :P
06:58 < justanotheruser> 11:29 < kanzure> 2 is stupid. typical surface dweller attitude.
06:58 < justanotheruser> Is rapture on the h+ roadmap?
06:58 < maaku> justanotheruser: define "rapture"
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07:00 < justanotheruser> maaku: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3RHenh8vJ8#t=206
07:00 <@kanzure> .title
07:00 < yoleaux> Bioshock Intro (720p) - YouTube
07:00 <@kanzure> oh brother
07:01 < justanotheruser> Rapture seems like a place you would like
07:01 < justanotheruser> not sure how easy it would be to make an underwater city though
07:04 < justanotheruser> LOL, I love this 12:05 < kanzure> i hate you get the hell out
07:05 < eudoxia> kanzure: you still haven't told me your plan to implement skdb
07:05 < eudoxia> every second we don't write skdb code is 10^50 planets not colonized by FOSS KSRM probes
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07:12 <@kanzure> i wonder how to convert that into anxiety units
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07:26 <@kanzure> also, it's in the recent logs
07:28 < maaku> KSRM = Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy?
07:29 < maaku> pasky: so I came at AGI because of nanotech
07:30 < maaku> i was looking at how to make a nanofactory, and at some point realized it would take an ungodly number of engineering man-years to complete
07:30 < maaku> but that's it -- it's basically *just* an engineering problem. every decent university lab has the necessary tools and material
07:31 < maaku> so, make an artificial engineer and buy lots of commodity computing hardware to run it seemed a cheaper / faster option
07:31 < maaku> using the agi to accomplish other stuff afterwards is just gravy
07:31 <@kanzure> ksrm is "kinematic self-replicating machine"
07:32 < maaku> ah
07:32 < maaku> well the mars triloogy is excelent reading too :)
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07:38 < AmbulatoryCortex> I really wonder if drexlerian nanotech is actually possible, as opposed to to wet nanotech
07:41 < justanot1eruser> AmbulatoryCortex: Probably is possible, but also inefficient
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07:51 < maaku> AmbulatoryCortex: absolutely possible. here's some VASP simulations: http://www.molecularassembler.com/Papers/MinToolset.pdf
07:52 < maaku> justanot1eruser: inefficient?
07:53 < justanot1eruser> maaku: I'm guessing natures design is better on the atomic scale than replicating our macro scale technologies
07:55 < maaku> justanot1eruser: you'd need some insane justifications for that.
07:55 < maaku> biology is horribly inefficient
07:55 < maaku> biology is putting all the parts in a box, shaking it, and getting the final result
07:56 <@kanzure> biology works
07:56 < maaku> it's a miracle that it works, and is orders of magnitude slower than physical limits
07:56 < justanot1eruser> maaku: and then making that final result slightly different over time towards a local optimum
07:56 < eudoxia> the difference is humans optimize for clarity (eg drexler's differential gear) while biology has brutally optimized for raw performance
07:57 <@kanzure> not optimized for performance
07:57 < maaku> biology is absolutely not optimized for performance
07:57 < justanot1eruser> kanzure: no, but survival is often aligned with performance
07:57 < maaku> no, it is not
07:57 < maaku> it is aligned with redundancy
07:57 < maaku> redundancy is counter to performance
07:57 < justanot1eruser> ?
07:58 < justanot1eruser> I'm talking about survival of an individual organism, are you not?
07:58 < AmbulatoryCortex> bacteria manage to reproduce plenty fast in ideal conditions
07:58 <@kanzure> geology has no reason to be optimized for performance
07:58 < justanot1eruser> how does geology enter here?
07:59 < AmbulatoryCortex> guessing mistype
07:59 <@kanzure> biology is just a widely misunderstood subfield of geology
07:59 < AmbulatoryCortex> lol
07:59 <@kanzure> some rocks got up and started walking around and shit
08:00 < justanot1eruser> yeah
08:00 < justanot1eruser> anyways, organisms that can quickly replicate and use little energy have high performance and can survive
08:02 < maaku> justanot1eruser: so i'm in peurto rico, 4,000 mi from my references
08:02 < justanot1eruser> life gave us DNA which is probably the best tool for building nanoscale structures in the short term
08:03 < maaku> but i believe nanosystems has calculations showing that most of the things biology does can be done 1,000x faster with precision machinery
08:04 < justanot1eruser> maaku: That actually sounds reasonable. I did say evolution only brought us to a local optimum. anyways wetware will still probably be our first step to getting to mechanosynthesis
08:04 < maaku> which is not surprising ... machines beat biology at macro scale stuff. i think the onus is on you to show biology would be more efficient at the small scale
08:04 < maaku> justanot1eruser: people have said that, but no one has come up with a reasonable way to bridge from biology to drexlarian like nanotech
08:05 < justanot1eruser> maaku: make really inefficient error prone mechanosynthesis with wetware is my guess
08:05 <@kanzure> that's not an actual proposal
08:05 < maaku> whereas there at least exists a roadmap for doing so from AFM microscopy
08:05 < maaku> and, what kanzure said
08:06 < maaku> on the other hand, we have demonstrated mechanosynthesis on gold and silicon surfaces
08:06 < justanot1eruser> kanzure: no, it's a guess. I'm not sure we know enough about how we can manipulate DNA to know whether we can/how to create a useful structure
08:07 <@kanzure> well, there's dna origami, but you should look at proteins instead
08:07 < eudoxia> is dna origami actually useful for anything
08:08 < maaku> eudoxia: scaffolding
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08:09 < maaku> justanot1eruser: the problem is that DNA and proteins are all wobbly at the nano scale
08:09 < justanot1eruser> maaku: I'm not sure AFMs are the correct path since they're addative and the useful structures will probably be unstable when created in that manner
08:09 < pasky> maaku: ah! that's a pretty interesting take - but then again, do you need an agi to build a nanofactory in the first place? i think it's way easier to go about this by using more specialized means, i.e. decomposing the problem to organizing current knowledge, automatically creating structured databases from unstructured data, inference on top o fthe database...
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08:09 < justanot1eruser> I should specify additive layer by layer
08:10 < maaku> justanot1eruser: it's not unlike 3d printing, so long as you can come up with a way of removing material in a bath
08:10 < justanot1eruser> maaku: what is the bath? Electrons?
08:10 < maaku> it seems zyvex is doing that (additive silicon and germanium then remove the germanium in a path)
08:10 < maaku> *bath
08:10 <@kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/nanotech/freitas_process/notes.txt
08:10 < maaku> but yeah, the freitas process is not strictly additive
08:11 < maaku> pasky: "do you need an agi" absolutly not. give me either (a) 500 million dollars and 10 years, or (b) an AGI and a basement lab
08:12 < maaku> since I think the agi would cost less than $500m+, that seemed the less resource intensive path
08:12 < justanot1eruser> maaku: how much freedom does that process allow? Could I construct arbitrary molecules and wash the stuff I don't need?
08:12 < AmbulatoryCortex> course, to make the AGI, you might need the former
08:12 < maaku> justanot1eruser: i don't know, zyvex seems pretty tight lipped about what they're doing. you can read the outline of their proposal in the foresight nanotech roadmap though.
08:13 < maaku> AmbulatoryCortex: 10 years, yes, the hundreds of millions, probably not
08:13 < pasky> maaku: i think the agi will be more expensive than $500m still at this point, since you need a few more damn good ideas, and to get these, you need to spend resources to generate all sorts of bad and good ideas
08:14 < maaku> pasky: that's where i differ from mainstream opinion. to build the idiot savant capable of designing a nanofacotry, i think we have most of the good ideas already sorted out
08:16 < justanot1eruser> why does the number $500 million keep getting tossed around in this channel? Is it just coincidence?
08:16 <@kanzure> budgets, man
08:16 < justanot1eruser> is that the 2015 ##hplusroadmap budget?
08:16 <@kanzure> well the 2014 budget was just under $3 million
08:17 < justanot1eruser> do you have donors?
08:17 < maaku> in this case $500m was a random number i came up with on the spot.
08:17 < justanot1eruser> ah
08:18 <@kanzure> fuck donors
08:18 < maaku> freitas and merkle quote $50m - $100m I think, but they're optimistic imho
08:18 <@kanzure> 1) do hard work 2) demand payment 3) i'll spend my money however i please
08:18 < justanot1eruser> because the guy that almost got banned earlier was talking about a $500m island
08:18 < maaku> whereas an AGI could really be 1-2 people over ten years, so ~$1-2m
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08:20 < maaku> http://www.wisdomination.com/screw-motivation-what-you-need-is-discipline/
08:20 < maaku> .title
08:20 < yoleaux> Screw motivation, what you need is discipline. | Wisdomination
08:22 <@kanzure> screw discipline, what they need is meth or adderall
08:22 <@kanzure> possibly cocaine
08:22 < maaku> pasky: the "organize current data, structure databases, inference [and planning] on top" works for stuff we know a lot about, e.g. biology
08:23 < maaku> hence why I think it's necessary for the SENS research task
08:23 <@kanzure> you can get pretty far manually doing that
08:23 <@kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/aging_roadmap.txt
08:23 < maaku> but for nanofactories, the amount of info out there is basically nil
08:23 <@kanzure> (this guy's thesis was that "everyone sucks and nobody reads the fucking literature, they just want expert systems to do the work for them eventually")
08:23 < maaku> most of it is right here: http://www.molecularassembler.com/Nanofactory/Publications.htm
08:23 < maaku> heh
08:24 < maaku> yeah you could do all of this manually
08:24 < maaku> but then you have Aubrey de Gray (sp?) asking for $100m to do just that
08:24 < maaku> (also insanly optimistic, i think)
08:24 <@kanzure> afaik aubrey doesn't read that much any more
08:26 < pasky> maaku: i think i'd need to understand nanotech a lot more to be able to meaningfully discuss engineering it automatically :)
08:26 < maaku> fair enough. i'd have to say the same about biology to be honest
08:27 < maaku> but i'd love a description of why you're working on agi and what tasks you want it to accomplish similarly
08:30 < pasky> I wrote it once (I think even pasted in this channel) but it didn't really make that much sense I guess
08:32 < pasky> maaku: http://pasky.or.cz/dev/brmson/grand-plan.pdf
08:32 < pasky> re-reading it, i do think it makes sense but is way less concrete than i remembered writing it ;)
08:38 < maaku> it made sense, and it is a workable plan
08:38 < maaku> if i had to bootstrap agi, that's what I'd do
08:38 < maaku> what i'm doing right now is bootstrapping via a different industry :P
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08:39 < maaku> i'm involved in a bitcoin startup, and if that has any kind of positive exit, i should be able to skip the compete-with-Google-and-IBM phase and jump straight to "build me a nanofactory"
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08:40 < maaku> but that requires a 5+ year self-funded roadmap
08:40 < maaku> if you want to make money now, knowledge organization is probably where it's at
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08:44 < maaku> pasky: just be careful to structure it in such a way that you can sell the business to one of those heavyweights without losing the technology
08:44 < maaku> e.g. make the tech open source but the database proprietary or something
08:44 < maaku> this may require some careful thought
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08:45 < maaku> pasky: what's your background?
08:47 < maaku> n/m found your web page
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08:49 < pasky> maaku: so far it's all open source, and I don't have the details of restricting something figured out yet; my working plan is to keep it open source until I'm sure I shouldn't
08:49 < maaku> imho it should always be open source
08:50 < maaku> i assume this is your research project? any problems from your university if you spin it out?
08:50 <@kanzure> pasky's background is the git underground
08:50 <@kanzure> and stuff
08:51 <@kanzure> actually i have no good way to summarize pasky
08:51 < maaku> i'll save a git vs monotone argument for another day
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08:53 < maaku> "answering physics questions in university exams" -- do you have more info about this
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08:53 < maaku> ? how smart is it? is it able to plug into models, or is it just searching for already worked out examples?
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08:55 < maaku> on the roadmap to a "build me a nanofactory", i'm going to build an agent that can figure out and solve problems in introductory physics and engineering books
08:55 < maaku> i'm trying to see if what you're doing is related
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08:57 <@kanzure> eleitl: hello. maaku and pasky have agi plans.
08:58 <@kanzure> and eudoxia wants your autograph
08:58 < eleitl> :)
08:58 < eleitl> who are maaku and pasky?
08:59 <@kanzure> some dudes
08:59 < eleitl> dudes with money and clue?
08:59 < phm4242> Nope. Inane AGI speculation.
08:59 -!- phm4242 was kicked from ##hplusroadmap by kanzure [phm4242]
08:59 <@kanzure> ignore that one
08:59 <@kanzure> they were here a moment ago...
09:00 <@kanzure> have you heard anything from zyvex in forever?
09:00 < eleitl> No. But I'm not keeping current.
09:00 < pasky> maaku: should be no issues from my university :) i hope to be able to get some investment and spin it off in late spring / summer, i'll see how it goes
09:00 < pasky> no idea how to really go about it yet :)
09:01 < eleitl> pasky: what is your proposed bootstrap route?
09:01 < maaku> eleitl: i'm Mark Friedenbach, previously worked at Transcriptic and NASA's Astrobiology and Lunar Science institutes before that. Currenty co-founder at blockstream.com. Who are you?
09:01 < eleitl> Hi Mark. I'm Eugene Leitl. Early transhumanist of diverse interests, worked in cryonics.
09:01 < pasky> maaku: regarding the physics questions - I just started to look around a week ago and so far it seems they are basically converting the physics problems to some logical forms with predicates and then spew out pattern-based Modelica statements based on these predicates, and running simulations; I don't really like the approach that much, but it's a difficult problem
09:02 < pasky> eleitl: Hi Eugene. I'm Petr Baudis, random programmer and researcher, previously working e.g. on Computer Go and various machine learning stuff, currently working on https://github.com/brmson
09:03 < pasky> ...which is a question answering system.
09:03 < eleitl> Hi Petr. Pleased to meet you.
09:04 < pasky> and I guess this gadget is my proposed bootstrap route to agi if you meant that :) but I'm not actually thinking about agi that hard since building a sensible QA system is hard enough right now.
09:04 <@kanzure> eleitl: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRu02F6AOmg&t=40s
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09:05 < eleitl> Pick and place a la gatling. Nice.
09:06 < eleitl> pasky: I think AGI is hard enough you have to go biologically inspired if not outright biologically derived. Which is computationally very expensive, obviously.
09:06 < eleitl> Another approach is ALife, but that requires even more computation.
09:06 < maaku> eleitl: nice to meet you. andytoshi has inspired me to stop cryoprocrastinating. if i have any questions about that stuff i might ask you
09:07 <@kanzure> eleitl: i stumbled into this alife paper a while back.... http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/ai/The%20evolution%20of%20self-replicating%20computer%20organisms%20-%20A.%20N.%20Pargellis.pdf
09:07 < maaku> eleitl: you working in the AI space?
09:08 < maaku> eleitl: i'll differ with you on that one. biological intelligence is not optimized for being comprehensible
09:08 < eleitl> maaky: sure, I can tell you everything you like about cryonics. Unfortunately, probably none of it will be exactly great news.
09:08 < pasky> eleitl: so I think that's an argument I had with kanzure back when I posted http://pasky.or.cz/dev/brmson/grand-plan.pdf first
09:09 <@kanzure> i was not aware that eleitl agreed with me on biologically-accurate emulation
09:09 <@kanzure> however, i always suspected that i was right
09:09 < maaku> lol
09:09 < eleitl> maaku: I've done my reading on AI since 1980s and had my debates in 1990s/2000s.
09:09 < pasky> eleitl: I personally don't think AGI needs to be biologically inspired (or at least not to the gory details of simulating firing neurons etc.)
09:09 < eleitl> What exactly do you mean when you say biologically accurate, kanzure?
09:09 <@kanzure> i mean "read a bunch of papers, write good emulators"
09:09 <@kanzure> *neuroscience papers
09:09 <@kanzure> *neurophysiology papers
09:10 < eleitl> I agree about that one.
09:10 < eleitl> pasky: biological information processing is opaque, so they only chance you have is by going to low level physics, and see what you can learn from digitized neuranatomy
09:10 < pasky> eleitl: same with alife, that is not even on my radar at all; that's in the field of the people who want to build a robot who will learn touch objects and understand basic relations like a human child, but I'm looking at AGI from a completely different perspective, I don't even think it needs to be embodied or particularly represented in the physical or any artifical world
09:10 < maaku> if your goal is to create an artificial human with all its perks and flaws, yes biology-inspired is probably a good route
09:11 < eleitl> So, unfortunately, you will need the pesky spiking neurons, at least initially.
09:11 < pasky> eleitl: but I don't want to build an artificial human brain
09:11 < pasky> that's not a very interesting task for me
09:11 < eleitl> pasky: information processing needs hardware, so of course it is embodied
09:11 < maaku> if you just want to automate certain tasks, e.g. engineering, then i find bio-emulation pathways less convincing
09:11 < eleitl> Automation is easy, but real intelligence is not.
09:12 < eleitl> So I will remain politely skeptical of your effort, unless it involves the total connectome.
09:12 <@kanzure> wellll
09:12 < pasky> if we start throwing around phrases like "real intelligence", I don't think that's a particularly inspiring discussion for me
09:12 <@kanzure> arguably the total connectome is not necessary
09:12 < maaku> i'll have to ask you to taboo "real intelligence" here and define what you mean
09:12 <@kanzure> like, auditory cortex is probably unnecessary
09:13 <@kanzure> and some of the motor cortex can probably be dropped
09:13 < maaku> for me the task i'm interested in is creative problem solving and model building
09:13 < eleitl> I define real intelligence as ability of artificial system to occupy 50% of better of all human work niches
09:13 <@kanzure> why not just human-like cognitive ability
09:13 < maaku> eleitl: right, ok. so we're talking about different things
09:13 < eleitl> So not just spikes in ability landscapes, but flooding the entire space
09:13 <@kanzure> (or is that something you would ask to taboo as well?) (and if so, why)
09:14 < maaku> for me AGI is an ability to solve problems in arbitrary, unexpected domains
09:14 < eleitl> if it can't compete with people across the board is not really intelligence
09:14 < eleitl> maaku: that's what people do, yes
09:14 < maaku> eleitl: people do much more than that though
09:15 < maaku> if my AGI is unable to express what it feels like to fall in love, i'm okay with that
09:15 < eleitl> I have not been able to find a better benchmark than the 50% definition above.
09:15 < eleitl> why should your AI be unable to learn what falling in love means?
09:15 < eleitl> There are people who have never fallen in love, so all they can do is read about that.
09:16 <@kanzure> this is going to escalate into the wrong conversation ("is it okay to not experience love but still understand it")
09:16 < maaku> eh... yeah i think kanzure is right
09:16 < maaku> this is not the place for that conversation
09:16 < eleitl> I'm trying to use a definition of abilities people are being paid for
09:17 < eleitl> As a benchmark it's not all that bad, and measurable.
09:17 < maaku> what I was trying to get at before was "for what reason do you want to make an AGI?"
09:17 <@kanzure> eleitl: why does GRG suck so much?
09:17 < eleitl> Old gerontologists can't evolve.
09:17 <@kanzure> but why not. is that going to happen to me?
09:17 < maaku> if your task is "replace humans 50% of the time", then having a human-inspired intelligence is a good idea
09:18 < eleitl> An AGI is a tool to restart progress, which has been stalling.
09:18 < pasky> eleitl: so how would you measure it? because it doesn't seem all that unlikely to me that machines today occupy 50% of better of all human work niches compared to 300 years ago
09:18 < eleitl> An AGI which is not useful is of no interest to me.
09:18 < maaku> if your goal is "automate things humans find hard" -- what i'm doing -- then there's good reason to believe that human-inspired AGI is an inefficient path
09:18 < eleitl> pasky: the number of employees hired.
09:19 < eleitl> Human intelligence is young, and if we have figured out the basics we can improve it reasonably quickly, if it does not require embodiment.
09:19 < pasky> progress has been stalling? I must be living in a different world!
09:19 < eleitl> If a path is sterile, it might be the most efficient one, but it's still irrelevant in practice.
09:19 < pasky> I kind of like the definition "ability to solve problems in arbitrary, unexpected domains" right now
09:20 < eleitl> This is pretty much the textbook definition, but as a metric it's useless.
09:20 < eleitl> By looking at the job market for people vs. AI you're letting the whole world evaluate your systems. All you do is collecting statistics.
09:21 < eleitl> By 50% or better you're avoiding the asymptotic issues of 100%.
09:21 <@kanzure> eh, maybe you cna extract some evolutionary pressure from job markets, but i dunno
09:22 < maaku> eleitl: it's very much a useful metric.
09:22 < maaku> i write a program that is able to answer physic and engineering questions when hooked up to a newtonian physics simulator
09:22 < eleitl> maaku: what is your measurement procedure for intelligence?
09:22 < eleitl> Mine is job statistics. Easy as pi.
09:22 < maaku> when it's able to do that, try it on chemistry questions when hooked up to a density-functional simulator
09:22 < maaku> then ask it to build nanomachines
09:23 < eleitl> maaku: DFT is probably not the right tool, but you're exactly right
09:23 < maaku> eleitl: does it get the job done.
09:23 < maaku> i don't think that kind of measurement is useful or interesting
09:23 < maaku> i'm working on AGI to solve a problem. solving that problem is interesting
09:24 < eleitl> I happen to disagree. The history of AI tends to be full of empty grandiosity. I prefer results.
09:24 < maaku> eleitl: DFT is not the right tool for which part?
09:25 <@kanzure> maaku: it's a little unfair for you to bring up newtonian physics simulators after our previous conversations. i mean, at least address the original objections....
09:25 < eleitl> Are you trying to do um or pm? I happen to think that the chemistry part is boring. So you need to simulate ~ms of ~um^3.
09:25 < maaku> kanzure: i'm blanking on the specific critique you are talking about
09:26 <@kanzure> "making a perfect simulator is also an impossible task"
09:26 < eleitl> I don't really understand what maaku's point is.
09:26 <@kanzure> "machine learning tends to be optimized for the simulation you write"
09:26 < eleitl> Who cares about anything perfect?
09:26 < maaku> in this case i'm talking about a trainign set -- given a newtonian physics simulator, learn the model that makes that simulator work and use it to answer questions from a textbook on newtonian physics
09:26 <@kanzure> machine learning will exploit the fuzzyness in the simulator
09:26 <@kanzure> that is why you would care
09:26 < pasky> eleitl: your metric maybe makes sense (if you can measure it; I have the trouble with the "Better 50%", I don't know how to define that), but it says "have we got agi yet, for a wihle now?"
09:27 < eleitl> 50% or more of all job slots occupied by nonhumans.
09:27 < pasky> that seems like kinda silly question to me, I'd like to ask "how I just built an agi?" or even "okay, what remains to be done to build an agi?" your metric doesn't help me with that
09:27 < eleitl> *All* job slots. CEO, gardener, physician, nanotechnologist.
09:28 < eleitl> Actually, your AGI would be capable of starting to fill up the slots -- all of them -- if it's good enough.
09:28 < eleitl> Before, you're limited to simulations.
09:28 < eleitl> That tells you something, see ALife progress.
09:28 < pasky> eleitl: oh like that! I didn't even realize you mean it this way; the notion that AGI would hold "jobs" seems most extraordinary to me
09:28 < maaku> kanzure: right well this is why we run the tests on newtonian physics -- I'm sure that the AGI will early on find edge cases in the simulator and abuse them
09:28 < maaku> but it's easier to tell when that happens
09:29 < eleitl> pasky: yes, definitely, artificial systems are already competing on the job market, but only in isolated areas
09:29 < eleitl> A real general intelligence would be able to do any job, orelse it wouldn't be actually general
09:29 < maaku> vs when you ask it to design a nanofactory and it comes up with something weird. maybe the thing it found is real? maybe not? we don't know
09:30 < maaku> eleitl: no, artificial systems pretty much run our world today
09:30 < eleitl> If it does the job it doesn't matter how weird it is
09:30 < pasky> eleitl: but the robots in car factories definitely are replacing human jobs; but they don't hold jobs themselves - and they create other human jobs for robot maintenance; I would by default assume it'll be the same way with AGI
09:30 < maaku> from air traffic control to distribution networks to architectural design to layout of supermarkets, etc.
09:30 < pasky> just as regular computers and their databases replaced huge swathes of low-paid office workers since the 50s
09:30 < pasky> or there used to be an actual job of being a "computer", that is carrying out arithmetic calculations
09:31 < eleitl> Precisely my point: you can already compute a human equivalence index by looking at the job market.
09:31 < eleitl> But you'll notice glaring absence of machines in certain wide areas of it.
09:31 < eleitl> That's because our current systems are idiot savants.
09:31 < maaku> i don't know how you would -- exactly how many people would it take to manually do what a narrow AI system does today? unclear because capabilities differ
09:31 < pasky> but what do I learn from the job market? okay it has this structure now, it had that structure in 1915; many jobs popped up, many disappeared, some because of machines, some for different reason
09:31 < pasky> how do I derive your metric from that?
09:32 < maaku> but i think it's arguing a point i find uninteresting
09:32 < eleitl> I find it interesting what you find unininteresting.
09:33 <@kanzure> eleitl: i think GRG has no good plans
09:33 < pasky> I wonder if we have less prostitues because of all the porn on the internet
09:34 <@kanzure> eleitl: someone needs to sit down and write useful plans for $10M, $100M, $10B in funding for our various mutual problem areas
09:34 < maaku> kanzure: that would be useful, although probably a rabbit hole of disagreement
09:34 <@kanzure> that's fine actually
09:34 <@kanzure> having separate disagreeing plans is fine
09:34 < maaku> since most of us compute that based on gut feeling, not actual costed plans
09:34 <@kanzure> having them at all is useful
09:34 < eleitl> I agree GRG is not making progress
09:34 < maaku> GRG?
09:34 <@kanzure> they proposed a weekly conference call -_-
09:35 <@kanzure> .wik http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerontology_Research_Group
09:35 < yoleaux> "The Gerontology Research Group (GRG) is a global group of researchers in various fields that is known for verifying and tracking supercentenarians, or people who are at least 110 years old. The group also aims to further gerontology research with a goal of reversing or slowing aging. It was founded in 1990 by L. Stephen Coles and Stephen M." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerontology_Research_Group
09:35 < eleitl> Gerontologists are conservative, and they don't learn from the dead gerontologists.
09:36 < eleitl> http://chronopause.com/chronopause.com/index.php/2011/05/30/going-going-gone/
09:36 < eleitl> Few people remember who these even were.
09:36 <@kanzure> bunch of dead people
09:36 < eleitl> Right. That so many with high hopes died should send the other ones a message.
09:37 <@kanzure> you mean high hopes is insufficient? whaaaat
09:37 < eleitl> Yet they still continue to believe they're the ones who're going to make the breakthrough.
09:37 < eleitl> But there isn't any breakthrough to make as far as I can tell. It's an issue of control.
09:37 <@kanzure> bodies are dumb anyway
09:37 < maaku> i'm sorry i have a mental filter regarding most ageing research
09:38 < eleitl> maaku: it's wise of you. I still track it on a low priority, should something interesting emerge.
09:38 < eleitl> in 30 years, nothing interesting has.
09:38 <@kanzure> emulation seems like a more viable option
09:38 < maaku> some people were god damn lucky in the gene lottery, and others probably extended it a few years or decades through good habits
09:38 <@kanzure> and also has the benefit of fixing most of the aging problems
09:39 < eleitl> even if you're lucky, it buys you perhaps 20-30 years.
09:39 < eleitl> Not bad, but not game-changers.
09:39 < maaku> but it seems unlikely to yield a better payoff than "exercise, eat right, and don't smoke"
09:39 < maaku> anyway i only need to live 30-ish more years...
09:39 <@kanzure> "store your wisdom teeth" is some fall-out and good advice
09:40 < eleitl> I'm popping dozens of pills, but I'm making no illusions about their effect on longevity.
09:40 < eleitl> It keeps my vitals in decent shape, though.
09:40 <@kanzure> nah vitamins are just a scam
09:41 < maaku> eleitl: however i do realize that being an 80's baby i'm fortunate to have the luxury to ignore it though
09:41 < eleitl> "I only need to live 30-ish more years" -- that's so many were saying in 1980s and 1990s.
09:41 < eleitl> Quite a few of them are dead now.
09:41 < eleitl> maaku: you're not different from people who were born last century
09:41 <@kanzure> eleitl: does it make you feel better that you outlived them
09:41 <@kanzure> eleitl: because it should
09:41 < maaku> eleitl: the world i live in is
09:41 < eleitl> don't fool yourself, you're the easiest person to fool
09:42 <@kanzure> "this time it's different"
09:42 < eleitl> there is no point in feeling good outliving the old and diseased
09:42 < maaku> eleitl: the last generation (sorry) made a mistake that is the variant of the planning fallacy
09:42 <@kanzure> .to fenn http://parts.io/
09:42 < yoleaux> kanzure: I'll pass your message to fenn.
09:42 < maaku> we/they could see that radical life extension was possible
09:42 < eleitl> they're poor bastards, and we're poor bastards, too
09:42 <@kanzure> speak for yourself
09:43 < maaku> as humans we estimate things that seem crazy hard as 30 years away. it's just our nature
09:43 < eleitl> maaku: my model of the future is that it is worse than the past
09:43 < eleitl> Unlike what many think technical progress has stalled across the board.
09:43 < pasky> ah, and that again :)
09:43 < pasky> gee
09:44 < eleitl> We're still making progress in some select areas, but that is dependant on a number of external factors that are not going in a good direction.
09:44 < eleitl> Exponentials are not the norm, and they never last long.
09:44 <@kanzure> yeah he's sort of the eternally optimistic pessimist
09:45 < eleitl> I'm an optimist because I believe it's all would have been completely avoidable
09:45 < maaku> on the other hand, now we actually have technical pathways to achieving it, or at least the Kurzweilian graphs which show it happening in 30-ish years
09:45 < maaku> eleitl: I have absolutely no way to relate to that
09:45 <@kanzure> kurzweil is my bitch
09:45 < eleitl> maaku: Kurzweil is a kook
09:46 < maaku> eleitl: wat.. i just.. wwhat? explonential progress is the only truly universal fact of human history
09:46 < maaku> it has always held true in every culture in every era
09:47 < maaku> at some point it will stop. it must as we hit physical limits. but there's still plenty of room at the bottom...
09:47 < maaku> (well it won't stop, it's just we'll start the exponential expansion outward into space)
09:48 < eleitl> Exponentials don't last long, and be it for relativistic limits.
09:48 < eleitl> Until you can pop off recursive spacetimes with traversable portals.
09:48 < maaku> ok true. at some point we simply become quadratic as we expand outwards in all direcctions.
09:48  * pasky became convinced, hmm, 12 minutes ago that this discussion is a waste of time
09:48 < maaku> but it doesn't *stop*
09:48 < pasky> maaku: I know, someone is wrong on the internet! but...
09:49 < eleitl> maaku: I know many people who think like you. These people should take the time analyzing the physical layer issues. They might learn something in the process.
09:49 < eleitl> pasky is exactly right
09:49 < eleitl> I'm not debating, just going through the notions
09:49 < pasky> that was probably my biggest mistaken assumption :)
09:50 < eleitl> I've had such debates in the last 30 years, and I'm tired of them.
09:50  * maaku is wasting time while he waits for somebody
09:50 < pasky> oh, still? wow
09:50 < maaku> eleitl: then what are you doing here?
09:50 < pasky> eleitl: you should've said that before :)
09:50 < eleitl> They never convince anyone.
09:50 < maaku> i can't imagine a point of view more counter to ##hplusroadmap
09:50 <@kanzure> he is here because this is unfortunately the only place that has any ambition or skill or money
09:51 < maaku> we have money?
09:51 <@kanzure> and also because i kick out all the fucktards
09:51 < eleitl> kanzure is unfortunately correct
09:51 < maaku> :P
09:51 < eleitl> it is easy to get money if your ideas sound right
09:51 <@kanzure> (or you, you know, have an actual income)
09:52 <@kanzure> (or uh, ahem, inheritance)
09:52 < eleitl> AGI still makes a good pitch to the right kind of people
09:52 < eleitl> I would milk the time while it lasts
09:53 <@kanzure> eleitl: i think the emulation pitch is pretty strong right now
09:53 <@kanzure> but it also sounds synonymous with hard work, so i can see why some would prefer to avoid it
09:53 < eleitl> it unfortunately takes a lot more money that that kind of funding can raise
09:54 <@kanzure> markham got a billion eurobucks
09:54 < maaku> it's finally, finally back in vogue
09:54 <@kanzure> uh, markram
09:54 <@kanzure> wow i got his name wrong. that doesn't happen often.
09:54 < maaku> but i'm not sure i'm so optimistic
09:54 < eleitl> Yeah, and produced a major eclat in the process.
09:54 < maaku> bitcoin seems a better path to money at the moment
09:55 < eleitl> And one billion in connectomics is chump change.
09:55 < eleitl> Remember exascale isn't even here yet, and it will be delayed
09:55 <@kanzure> eclat?
09:56 < eleitl> He might well burn all the money, and then have very little to show for it.
09:56 < eleitl> Brouhaha. The neuroscientists think theirs is a zero sum budget.
09:56 < maaku> pasky: this is why no matter what you make sure your project stays open source
09:56 < maaku> find some other way to ensure competative advantage despite your tech being open source
09:56 < eleitl> They think they should have gotten part of Markram's money.
09:57 < eleitl> maaku: what kind of hardware are you currently using?
09:57 < maaku> that way if/when you exit or go under, the tech stays usable and not trapped
09:58 <@kanzure> eleitl: markram is a neuroscientist, though
09:58 < eleitl> Open source is a given, but if you take money from venture capitalists, there are plenty of strings attached
09:58 <@kanzure> eleitl: yeah i did see lots of people complaining that they weren't given a chunk
09:58 <@kanzure> open source strategy is too subtle for most people to explain
09:58 < eleitl> Yes, but the rest of them don't believe he is truly one of them. And they want a share of the pie.
09:58 <@kanzure> trezor recently rewrote their git commit history because they didn't understand what their open source licensing was useful for
09:58 < pasky> what kind of strings?
09:58 < eleitl> control of IP
09:59 <@kanzure> wait why don't they think markram is a neuroscientist?
09:59 < pasky> kanzure: it was a PR stunt, more or less, they reverted it
09:59 < maaku> eleitl: for AGI? i'm still at the fooling-around-on-my-laptop stage
09:59 <@kanzure> pasky: is it possible that they are idiots?
09:59 < maaku> actually more of fooling-around-on-the-whiteboard
09:59 < eleitl> maaku: would you scale to millions and billions of nodes?
09:59 < maaku> it's a hobby project, i do bitcoin at my dayjob (and being co-founder, it consumes more than 40hrs a week)
09:59 <@kanzure> 40 hours + 1 soul
10:00 <@kanzure> + 1 marriage
10:00 < maaku> heh, yeah
10:00 < maaku> that describes it well
10:00 < maaku> we actually have a 40hr work culture
10:00 < pasky> kanzure: I know them personally and at least stickac has plenty of open source experience; it seems it's complicated and they are in a kinda tough spot and some of them indeed panicked
10:00 < maaku> but being a co-owner really throws that out the window
10:00 <@kanzure> pasky: right.... i have enough problems trying to explain an open source strategy to nmz787 for example. i can't imagine working with more than one person that doesn't understand open source.
10:00 < eleitl> maaku: are you at a bank, or an exchange?
10:01 < maaku> eleitl: bitcoin core tech company
10:01 < maaku> http://blockstream.com/about/
10:01 < maaku> eleitl: i think millions let alone billions is overkill, although it could scale
10:01 <@kanzure> and me: https://ledgerx.com/about-the-team/
10:02 < maaku> oh yeah kanzure is in the bitcoin-riches-plz camp too :)
10:02 < maaku> i'm imagining 10k to 100k nodes for the applications i'm considering
10:02 < maaku> so, a small datacenter
10:02 <@kanzure> technically i am in the compliance game
10:02 < eleitl> Oh, you've got Adam Back.
10:02 <@kanzure> yes they are serious
10:02 < pasky> (fwiw, i tried to jump the bitcoin bandwagon once but now i think it's crazy to bet much money on it and it's likely to stay a niche for quite a long while now)
10:03 < maaku> and Greg Maxwell and Pieter Wuille ;)
10:03 < eleitl> maaku: do you do asynchronous shared-nothing message-passing?
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10:03 < maaku> we're considering it but not doing anything with it at this time
10:03 < maaku> there are some useful protocols that would benefit from that capability
10:04 <@kanzure> .g site:blockstream.com filetype:pdf sidechains
10:04 < yoleaux> http://www.blockstream.com/sidechains.pdf
10:04 < eleitl> if you want to do AGI on a sea of nodes, you need to do that. Nothing else will scale.
10:04 < eleitl> I haven't been reading bitcoin-dev@ in a while.
10:06 <@kanzure> eleitl: opinion on mixmaster or mixminion or anonymous remailers?
10:07 < maaku> oh you mean in the AGI design? i haven't 'been considering any secure message passing architectures
10:07 < maaku> i'm assuming it's all in one data center with physical security
10:07 < maaku> well.. sort-of. i also have a nuclear option downloadable client that uses a bitcoin-derived p2p layer for connecting nodes
10:08 < eleitl> maaku: I'm talking about supercomputer architectures, where message passing has zero security
10:09 < eleitl> you might believe you don't need that much crunch, but you'll need that much crunch
10:09 < maaku> it would be crazy irresponsible to deploy, but could work if hooked up to a dead-mans switch as a protection against harassment by crazy LW people
10:09 < maaku> eleitl: oh given we were talking about bitcoin i thought you meant bitmessage or mixmaster like systems :)
10:09 < eleitl> residential WAN latency and throughput are really not relevant to large scale minds, unless the nodes are very fat indeed. And they aren't.
10:10 < maaku> yeah obviously some sort of message passing system would be used, but until operational I don't have reason to believe that OpenMPI based stuff would be insuffient..
10:11 < eleitl> you can't have shared memory, and you have to take care of the data/code logistics
10:11 < eleitl> think 3d torus, and map your stuff there
10:12 < eleitl> if you're doing SMP work it doesn't really scale beyond 10^3 nodes tops
10:14 < eleitl> a good testbed would be developing on a Xeon Phi
10:14 < eleitl> older Xeon Phi are a dize a dozen
10:14 < eleitl> s/dize/dime
10:15 < maaku> the architecture i'm considering would be message passing
10:15 < maaku> and resiliant to noisy/lost messages
10:15 < eleitl> that would be remarkably fitting
10:16 < eleitl> add to it small-world network assumption, and you will go places
10:16 < eleitl> (torus is small-world)
10:16 < eleitl> allright, I need to run off to spend time with the family
10:16 < eleitl> y'all take care
10:17 -!- eleitl [~eugen@v8.ativel.com] has quit [Quit: leaving]
10:17 < maaku> thanks for the advise eleitl
10:17 < maaku> oh he left
10:20 -!- FourFire [FourFire@2a02:270:2015:cafe:c148:1a38:1e7e:49f3] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:24 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-56-30-216.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:26 < eudoxia> oh no, i missed the leitl
10:32 < maaku> eudoxia: eleitl is seemingly well respected here?
10:32 < eudoxia> well you'd expect that to be the case given this is actually his fan club
10:32 < maaku> ?
10:33 <@kanzure> this is the official eugen leitl fan club
10:33 <@kanzure> the internet's first and only
10:33 <@kanzure> (our meetings are every tuesday at midnight)
10:35 < maaku> i had seriously never heard of him before
10:36 <@kanzure> there are not that many transhumanists out there, you know
10:37 <@kanzure> eudoxia: best to use .to or .tell i suppose
10:39 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [-o kanzure] by kanzure
10:41 < maaku> what has he done that is deserving of fandom? (just curious)
10:42 < kanzure> lately, cryonics, but also he's been known to put up great defenses against retard transhumanists over email
10:43 < kanzure> http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2008-August/044716.html
10:46 < AmbulatoryCortex> I understand some of those words, kanzure!
10:46 < AmbulatoryCortex> progress!
10:47 < maaku> his anti-progress views are strange
10:48 < maaku> i couldn't tell if he was trolling me or not
10:48 < eudoxia> he is a peak-oilist
10:48 < kanzure> like i said, he's optimist-pessimist
10:48 < kanzure> he doesn't believe there's been *no* progress
10:49 < eudoxia> in one of his reddit posts he summarized his views as, basically: there's ongoing progress but also ongoing environmental destruction etc., we'll have to see which trend beats the other
10:49 < kanzure> meh
10:50 < kanzure> i have never cared for that particular subset of his views :p
10:50 < kanzure> anyway, he's not afraid of doing work so that is a useful property of ihm as well
10:50 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@162-245-22-166.v250d.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:50 < kanzure> whereas i spent a lot of time trying to shame the world transhumanist association into doing transhumanist tech projects, which did not go well at all
10:51 < eudoxia> i don't think i've heard that particular story
10:51 < maaku> environmental destruction arguments are nonsense -- and i say this as an enviralmentalist
10:52 < FourFire> kanzure, best to be friendly with the few transhumanists you happen upon then, right?
10:52 < kanzure> no
10:52 < kanzure> best to kick them out and murder them
10:52 < FourFire> why not?
10:52 < FourFire> why so?
10:52 < kanzure> because they are a waste of my time and resources
10:52 < maaku> "environmental destruction" means changing the environment in ways that we don't value, but it's a logical fallacy to jump to that destroying human intelligence & progress
10:52 < kanzure> and they are completely ineffective
10:52 < FourFire> and you are?
10:52 < kanzure> in the 200 years of their ideation never has one of them actually decided to learn some biology
10:52 < kanzure> yes i have a demonstrated track record of writing good code, at least
10:52 < FourFire> srs?
10:53 < maaku> FourFire: the extropian community has been less than worthless with respect to achieving their goals
10:53 < kanzure> sitting around watching the stock market for the singularity is not a good plan of action
10:53 < FourFire> I had no idea, I thought you were just acting arseholish for no particular reason besides personality deficits
10:53 < maaku> with some notable exceptions -- freitas and merkle being my favorites
10:53 < kanzure> go fuck yourself
10:53 < kanzure> argh what is wrong with you people
10:53 < kanzure> what do you think this channel is for
10:53 < FourFire> maaku, well you can't have negative progress, unless you mean PR wise
10:53 < FourFire> but sure
10:54 < kanzure> i am an asshole towards you because you don't do anything
10:54 < maaku> FourFire: sure you can. you can convince other people that "sitting aroun watching the stock market for the singularity" is all they need to do
10:54 < kanzure> and also because your ideas are often bad
10:54 < maaku> thanks, Kurzweil
10:54 < FourFire> kanzure, sharing progress, maybe encouraging eachother, not being arseholes at anyone who is genuinely interested
10:54 < kanzure> i am not going to encourage you. you have only produced crap, in the past.
10:55 < maaku> we need people saying "YOU ARE GOING TO DIE UNLESS YOU HUNKER DOWN AND GET TO WORK!"
10:55 < FourFire> I was unaware that I've actually produced anything, have I claimed to in the past?
10:55 < maaku> not, "sign up for cryonics and you'll be ok!"
10:55 < FourFire> maaku, yeah, I should do that to myself
10:55 < kanzure> you have certainly brought up lots of stuff in here that has been less than stellar
10:55 < kanzure> and also, your lack of production and work is also a good explanation of my dislike of you
10:55 < kanzure> so that's good news
10:55 < kanzure> at least i'm consistent
10:56 < maaku> i don't care about past performance as long as you are willing to make an effort now
10:57 < maaku> (also I don't know what FourFire has worked on, so can't judge)
10:57 < kanzure> he has worked on bringing lesswrong crap in here
10:59 < kanzure> actually i'm pretty upset that he just interprets all of my comments to him as a personality defecit. instead of, you know, reading what i'm saying. really? there's no other conceivable reason for my intense anger at your poor reasoning skills?
10:59 < kanzure> maybe how you ignore my explanations about what this channel is for? nah that's impossible, right?
10:59 < FourFire> as far as I'm concerned and recall I haven't stated what I've worked on in here before, though sure, me presenting ideas which aren't 100% constructive could seem like a dick move to someone who has spent time building an optimal environment fro collaboration, but I don't consider that to be the case
11:00 < maaku> then FourFire, step one is apply your now mastered rationality skills to seeing if any of those unconventional lesswrong ideas actually make sense (hint: many of them don't)
11:00 < FourFire> the majority of my interest in LW and the surrounding community has been in improving my personal effectiveness towards the goals I see fit, and indeed more accurately determining what those goals are
11:00 < maaku> what has disgusted me about transhumanism is that people get the message: "steps to immortality: (1) sign up for cryonics, (2) sit back and chat while watching those smooth exponentials, (3) there is no step three, but enjoy the singularity!"
11:01 < kanzure> that's certainly digusting
11:01 < kanzure> er.... disgusting..
11:01 < FourFire> ok, well cryonics for one has always been a last resort thing ever since I found out about it, I consider it to be 99.5% as bad as dying in any other way
11:02 < FourFire> but then I have similar reservations about uploading
11:02 < kanzure> although, to be fair, i would argue that the majority of transhumanists do not sign up for cryonics by default
11:02 < kanzure> which is perhaps even worse
11:02 < maaku> (FourFire: I post on LW too by the way, though I get low karma for being counter-culutural there)
11:02 < FourFire> kanzure, wat, how can you have it both ways?
11:02 < kanzure> haha maau is counter-cultural?
11:02 < kanzure> FourFire: if doing nothing is bad, then doing cryonics is only slightly better
11:02 < AmbulatoryCortex> cyronics still shreds your cells, unless there's been some development I'm not aware of recently
11:02 < kanzure> *haha maaku is counter-cultural?
11:03 < FourFire> maaku, I posted a little but not anything of consequence
11:03 < FourFire> AmbulatoryCortex, much better than your atoms being all over the place
11:03 < kanzure> it's stupid that transhumanism is actually counter-cultural there. they don't know their own skin from the walls.
11:03 < FourFire> at least with cryonics they're sorta in the same positions that they were when you were alive
11:04 < FourFire> ok, fine, here is an idea by a quantum physicist I know for making cheap, dense flash memory: http://memory.oyhus.no/
11:05 < FourFire> if someone here can get it made then I consider that progress!
11:05 < maaku> kanzure: i'm not sure transhumanism is counter-cultural there. they're mostly pro-cryonics, pro-life extension, etc.
11:06 < FourFire> I'm shortly going to purchase the OpenBCI kit and donate it to the hackerspace I participate in
11:06 < kanzure> just not pro-doing-anything
11:06 < AmbulatoryCortex> I think cryonics is a false hope
11:06 < kanzure> it's not a hope. it's just a better alternative to cremation.
11:06 < eudoxia> maaku: i think kanzure meant they're kurzweilian transhumanists rather than roll up the sleeves and pump glycol into a cadaver transhumanists
11:06 < maaku> AmbulatoryCortex: cryonics is better than the alternative, that's all
11:07 < maaku> eudoxia: oh they're worse than that. if you actually roll up your sleeves and work on this, you're murdering humanity!
11:07 < FourFire> during my free time I will do some biofeedback experiments and afterwards attempt to make a collab team to program a Brain Computer Interface software
11:07 < maaku> seriously i've gotten death threats on #lesswrong (which is why i'm no longer there)
11:07 < kanzure> neat
11:07 < FourFire> what??
11:07 < AmbulatoryCortex> nice
11:07 < FourFire> by who?
11:07 < eudoxia> that's got to be some kind of achievement
11:07 < kanzure> maaku: well according to the etc group, i'm a bioterrorist and according to eliezer i'm going to blow up the planet (because transhumanists/ai are bad, dawg)
11:07 < eudoxia> 'told to stop working on AI by a brony on #lesswrong'
11:07 < FourFire> yeah, I mean I've said all manner of off things in there
11:08 < FourFire> the worst I've gotten is temp bans for "time travelling"
11:08 < maaku> i didn't recognize or remember the nick, although i'm sure I cound find it in the logs. probably some kid
11:08 < kanzure> might have been me
11:09 < maaku> wasn't you
11:09 < kanzure> :(
11:09 < maaku> but yeah, i wasn't joking earlier about the dead-mans switch to release a UFAI
11:09 < kanzure> hm?
11:09 < maaku> and it's fucked up that this should even be an issue
11:10 < eudoxia> wait who has a UFAI on a dead man's switch
11:10 < eudoxia> an* UFAI
11:10 < maaku> kanzure: genetic search + reinforcement learner + programmable goals + "mind transmission" communication, wrapped up with the bitcoin p2p protocol for peer discovery and relay
11:10 < kanzure> no i mean
11:10 < kanzure> what do you mean by you weren't joking?
11:10 < FourFire> kanzure, I'm afraid you'll have to remind me on "my explanations about what this channel is for?" then I could tell you whether I've just completely misinterpreted or ignored them
11:10 < kanzure> FourFire: you just claimed you thought this channel was for my outbursts, you dork
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11:11 < maaku> eudoxia: I don't yet, but I will.
11:12 < kanzure> maaku: i think that the claim that singinst can prevent ufai is silly and should never be trusted
11:12 < maaku> kanzure: +1 on that
11:12 < kanzure> and even if they were capable of that, then we s[huld prevent them from achieving control of the planet
11:12 < kanzure> btw fenn has been living with them for a few weeks now
11:12 < FourFire> hehe, it's been a long time since someone called me a dork, do we still use that word these days?
11:13 < FourFire> I'm fully aware that there's some massive communication problem between the two of us, but I remain unconvinced that it is solely due to me being stupid
11:14 < maaku> yay we got an inside mole!
11:14 < AmbulatoryCortex> eh?
11:15 < maaku> i'm actually not too worried about the siginst people, but rather their crazy, literally insane followers
11:15 < maaku> goertzel has apparantly been receiving death threats too
11:15 < kanzure> maaku: are you in california? when you're not in puerto rico?
11:15 < maaku> yeah
11:15 < maaku> San Jose
11:15 < kanzure> you should meet feen
11:15 < kanzure> fenn
11:15 < maaku> i'd like to
11:16 < kanzure> and tell him to bring steve
11:16 < FourFire> "you just claimed you thought this channel was for my outbursts, you dork" kanzure I admit that I can't see where I did that, care, to quote it back to me?
11:16 < kanzure> wtf?
11:16 < maaku> who is steve?
11:16 < kanzure> 10:53 < FourFire> I had no idea, I thought you were just acting arseholish for no particular reason besides personality deficits
11:16 < kanzure> FourFire: you don't seem to be capable of carrying a conversation....
11:16 < FourFire> yes, ok in retrospect that was a stupid comment
11:17 < kanzure> maaku: steve is the only reason singinst has an ounce of legitimacy
11:17 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
11:17 < maaku> i would have put nate/so8res as that reason
11:17 < maaku> (i've been trying to pull him away from MIRI craziness, unsuccessfully)
11:17 < FourFire> I know that you consider me your intellectual inferior, or perhaps just unfortunately undereducated, but I don't understand why that uatomatically translates into you being a verbal dick to me, however I'm glad we have this dialogue going now, so don't get offended now.
11:17 < kanzure> s08res not found
11:18 < maaku> FourFire: kanzure is a dick to everyone
11:18 < maaku> http://lesswrong.com/user/So8res/
11:18 < FourFire> I genuinely want to find out what ticks you off so much about me, and fix it if it's not too hard
11:19 < kanzure> maaku: http://lesswrong.com/user/Steve_Rayhawk/overview/
11:19 < maaku> FourFire: good. as far as I can tell that's why he's a dick. if you take at as indication to learn more about yourself, you're the right type of person. if not, you disappear and that is also good
11:21 < FourFire> thanks for that maaku
11:22 < eudoxia> not true, i haven't disappeared and all i've done is write a commit for skdb once
11:22 < FourFire> the potential benefit from attaining the cooperation of people who are insufficient in personality to get around kanzure's personality are not worth the time for the benefit they will give, which answers my first question today
11:23 < kanzure> because i have never seen you do anything but misunderstand
11:23 < kanzure> which makes investment in you totally worthless
11:23 < kanzure> also reddit. that's not a good sign either.
11:24 < maaku> FourFire: right, I think
11:24 < kanzure> *and* lesswrong, geeze
11:24 < kanzure> eudoxia: you are bad at hiding the other piles of code you write
11:24 < eudoxia> kanzure: haha, yes, but a lisp ORM isn't going to invent molecular machines ;C
11:25 < FourFire> oh yeah I wanted to write up some detailed things in the diyhpl.us/wiki filling in some bits which are marked "will fill in later" "obvious stuff"
11:25 < kanzure> stranger claims about lisp have been made, i suppose
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11:26 < kanzure> maaku: steve is basically the singinst version of gmaxwell
11:26 < FourFire> kanzure, TBH most of the time I spend on reddit goes towards raising the, what LW would call "sanity waterline" but what is more correctly termed "effective altruist-transhumanist culture" in the futurology subreddit
11:27 < eudoxia> that's probably a waste of time
11:27 < FourFire> oh and evening out the collapse and darkfuturology commenters which are too pessimistic, yeah it probably is
11:28 < eudoxia> kanzure: here's a funny coincidence, though, there's a chemist who attended a foresight conference and built a common lisp compiler on LLVM to run massively distributed computational chemistry stuff
11:28 < FourFire> I guess I'll continue my previous strategy, and report when I've actually done something i consider valuable: if I do manage to make the BCI work, I'll open source it
11:28 < eudoxia> maybe i can convince him to, idk, run an ab-initio simulation of all those impossible gears
11:29 < kanzure> er, why?
11:29 < kanzure> convince him to clean up nanoengineer :p
11:29 < eudoxia> kanzure: he spent two years writing a compiler so he wouldn't have to touch C++ anymore
11:31 < kanzure> FourFire: i don't think you are going to find eeg useful
11:33 < FourFire> kanzure, thanks for the tip, what makes you say that?
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11:33 < kanzure> decades of disappointment
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11:34 < FourFire> I'm buying it for the hackerspace, and though it's not necessarily useful for transhumanist agenda, I'm sure someone here will do something cool with it even if it's insufficient for my needs
11:34 < FourFire> would you suggest something else i could spend 800 USD on then?
11:35 < eudoxia> inb4 molecular biology textbooks
11:35 < eudoxia> then again we have libgen for that
11:35 < kanzure> hopefully you guys would burn me at the stake if i suggested paying for textbooks
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11:38 < kanzure> yo narwh4l
11:38 < narwh4l> hey kanzure
11:40 < FourFire> eudoxia, I can just borrow them from the university library anyway
11:41 < FourFire> I got a recentish copy of Molecular Biology of The Cell but have been too busy to read through metabolism :/
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11:48 < delinquentme> im . really . fucking . happy .
11:49 < delinquentme> kanzure, nmz787 thanks for the halp ... instrument response time is perceivably instant
11:49 < kanzure> got a paycheck?
11:49 < delinquentme> that too !
11:49 < delinquentme> im not dirty fucking poor hahah
11:49 < kanzure> good times
11:50 < FourFire> So, kanzure what would you advise me in regards to studying Biology at a University, is it: A waste of time and you don't care || B not worth it but you'd tell me to anyway since I'm useless to you || C Worth it and you'd recommend it because it would help me help you || D I could make better use of my time reading textbooks and programming (or whatever you do) ?
11:50 < kanzure> do you have money?
11:50 < FourFire> I live in a country where it's free to attend
11:51 < FourFire> but no.
11:51 < kanzure> do you live in the united states?
11:52 < delinquentme> FourFire, my .02 : if you think you can make it through the typically boring a fucking curriculum and still love it ... do it
11:52 < delinquentme> I dont think its a stretch to say college lecture classes / testing structure are where creativity goes to die.
11:53 < FourFire> kanzure, Norway
11:57 < FourFire> delinquentme, I'm not certain, but between the hackerspace and work, which is actually mentally engaging and not soul crushing in the slightest, I could probably make it through five years required for a masters degree in cellular biology and molecular chemistry, which is what I'd go for
11:57 < TMA> FourFire: It is mainly the leisure to pursue the learning -- the college might or might not be helpful in your knowledge quest.
11:59 < FourFire> TMA, I'm afraid I couldn't parse your first sentence, care to rephrase?
12:00 < TMA> FourFire: Sure. It'll take some rethinking.
12:02 < TMA> FourFire: I would compare college to instant ramen or fastfood -- easily accessible knowledge in standardized packages. Passable but not quite gourmet nor healthy.
12:04 < FourFire> fair enough, I'd compare it to politically correct food
12:04 < TMA> FourFire: If your goal is to learn, then college might provide you with the basics. However in order to learn I think that it is more important to have the leisure to learn than any method -- college, self-study, MOOC, ...
12:04 < FourFire> you're 100% not weird according if you take university, and you automatically get some degree of respect from people who care about pieces of paper
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12:06 < TMA> the paper -- it is the main bonus of college/university -- it boosts your earning power so you can have more leisure to learn later in life
12:06 < FourFire> yeah, fair enough: the goal is to acquire the resources to actually have an impact on indefinite biological lifespan research, or it's lesser subgoal, life extension
12:08 < TMA> I am not well versed in biology myself, but I take it that a good college is the fastest way to get the basics necessary for starting to make an impact.
12:08 < FourFire> if that means I need a degree in order to work for SENS then so be it, if I can be an autodidact  and do the same more quickly (more doubtful, personally) then that.
12:08 < kanzure> biology is not a high-paying career
12:08 < FourFire> I have taken college biology, I'm talking solely about University
12:08 < delinquentme> FourFire, its worth mentioning that those who funnel in money from other industries are doing as much good as SENS
12:09 < delinquentme> and what kanzure said
12:09 < kanzure> if you enjoy being broke and poor then congratulations welcome to the glamorous life of biology
12:09 < FourFire> delinquentme, "other industries" don't capture my interest like biology does, and thus I predict I will be less productive
12:10 < delinquentme> FourFire, show me your passion by working a hard ass well paying job then finish up work and head to the lab
12:10 < FourFire> I don't care about glamour or wealth either, I care about the end results, even if my short term motivation system is counter-productive
12:10 < delinquentme> How passionate are you ?
12:12 < TMA> delinquentme: I have tried two universities. Only one of them was killing the creativity.
12:12 < FourFire> having an odd 60 years of "upper middle class" lifestyle is worthless against multiple millennia of meh (and you probably get a much higher variation too)
12:14 < delinquentme> FourFire, i dont follow what you mean
12:14 < delinquentme> TMA do research if its what you truly want.
12:15 < delinquentme> where im at I'm funneling my day job funds into research
12:15 < delinquentme> With money: the lever gets much larger.
12:16 < FourFire> delinquentme, enough that my judgement is clouded regarding Eliezer's rather unorthodox outbursts because he proclaims death to be the enemy
12:16 < FourFire> delinquentme, what research? your own?
12:18 < delinquentme> hehe He unfriended me because hes a social justice warrior
12:18 < delinquentme> FourFire, myself and a few friends
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12:28 < FourFire> delinquentme, I meant that a "good life" is worth very little compared to a "poor unglamorous" indefinite lifespan, which could well contain 60 years of wellbeing anyway
12:34 < delinquentme> FourFire, I think you're missing what my point is
12:34 < delinquentme> you can spend your money however you like
12:35 < delinquentme> but just having it... will give you more options.
12:35 < FourFire> yes you're implying that I could multiply my research effectiveness by earning money and donating it
12:35 < FourFire> or that, yeah
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12:36 < FourFire> I have a job, it's not well paying for me atm, but it's in a high margin business, and will be in the last half of jobs to be automated
12:40 < TMA> not well paying job in high margin business sounds like a very bad method of participation on that business -- better to own that business
12:41 < FourFire> I'll get higher pay as soon as I stop being a trainee
12:42 < FourFire> ATM I get the crappy pay of 15.50 USD/Hour, but I get some perks in the job
12:43 < TMA> FourFire: then you'll get more of the leisure I was talking about earlier -- leisure to pursue your learning or your research
12:45 < FourFire> I am of the opinion that I lack the required personal qualities to own  successful business
12:45 < FourFire> of course I haven't taken the opportunity to test this yet.
12:46 < FourFire> I don't see myself doing so in the forseeable future as it would be a risky investment of the majority of my resources for an uncertain probability of attaining an uncertain gain
12:54 < TMA> FourFire: based on my calculations and big mac index your salary would be slightly above average in the Czech Republic where I live; this translates to an elevated level of stress when trying to work and study with university imposed deadlines
12:54 < FourFire> so that's bad?
12:56 < TMA> FourFire: on the other hand you have said that your job is not of the soul-sucking variety; the overall level of stress might be easily comparable to one full time soul-sucking job with no other stressors
12:56 < TMA> FourFire: so it might be doable :)
13:01 < TMA> FourFire: the deadlines will force you to learn faster [and shallower] -- the price is stress, the gain is breadth of knowledge [I wouldn't have learned some things were they not compulsory part of the curriculum -- yet I find the insights obtained from them useful]
13:02 < TMA> maybe the best plan is to start, learn a little, network a lot and drop out -- several of the big enterpreneurs did just that
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13:37 < justanot1eruser> maaku: I was thinking about incentive problems with freicoin then it hit me that freicoin has a double meaning
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14:00 < FourFire> TMA, again, I feel that I lack certain personality ... requirements to "network a lot" (and I don't primarily mean that I'm a spotty nerd with no social skills) I feel that the majority of the gain of going to university would be the knowledge shortly followed by the certification of holding a degree
14:02 < kanzure> that's insane
14:02 < FourFire> I just don't think I'm entrepreneur material (and I can't even spell that word :(
14:02 < FourFire> kanzure, in which way, I see several
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14:08 < kanzure> you can just buy a certificate from lots of schools, try vietnam
14:13 < FourFire> but those certifications aren't worth much as a result
14:14 < FourFire> and having loads of random certifications just looks like you're collecting them, which in the eyes of the people I want to seem credible to, would be actually bad :/
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14:30 < TMA> FourFire: nowadays I would put the degree and certificate first and the knowledge second [because the knowledge can be pursued by other means].
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15:14 < archels> so I think I'm going to go for CircuiTikz after all to typeset these circuit diagrams
15:14 < archels> InkScape sounded nice in theory because of the freedom, but there are way too many mouseclicks involved
15:27 < kanzure> bloop
15:27 < kanzure> well you could always write raw svg and load into inkscape?
15:28 < kanzure> although why use inkscape for anything circuit related?
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15:37 < archels> because of freedom in case I need a new part, or need to customise something
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16:31 < nmz787> archels: why not use inkscape?
16:31 < nmz787> archels: if you want to write some custom software, and are also interested in autorouting, maybe we can collaborate
16:31 < nmz787> archels: s/inkscape/kicad/
16:32 < nmz787> my fingers typed from the wrong memory buffer
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17:01 < kanzure> logging log collector http://www.fluentd.org/
17:05 < maaku> justanotheruser: double-meaning?
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17:06 < maaku> .help .tell
17:06 < yoleaux> Relay a telegram to someone
17:06 < maaku> .tell maaku testing
17:06 < yoleaux> maaku: Talking to yourself is the first sign of madness.
17:06 < maaku> hah
17:10 < maaku> .tell FourFire fuck utility; take what you're interested in college. art history? philosophy? whatever. drop your job as the opportunity cost is too high and self-learn bio-engineering, comp sci, or whatever transhumanist contribution you want to make. establish a reputation by coding.
17:10 < yoleaux> maaku: I'll pass your message to FourFire.
17:11 < kanzure> i'm not really sure where to make money in norway
17:12 < justanotheruser> maaku: is there not supposed to be a double meaning?
17:12 < justanotheruser> "frei"?
17:14 < maaku> kanzure: he may have to move elsewhere after university
17:14 < maaku> it comes from 'freigeld', Gesell's proposed currency, which itself did have a double-meaning i think
17:15 < maaku> it's not a play on my name as many people think (different root, spelled differently)
17:15 < maaku> 'freigeld' does literally mean 'free money'
17:16 < kanzure> instead of university he could spend that time making money
17:16 < kanzure> "notmysurnamemarket"
17:17 < maaku> haha now that was a double meaning
17:17 < justanotheruser> ok neverming
17:17 < maaku> we were absolutely going for 'free markets' in 'freimarkets'
17:17 < maaku> justanotheruser: but seriously what was the two meanings you thought? i want to know in case there's a branding issue
17:18 < justanotheruser> maaku: well now theres threeish
17:18 < justanotheruser> I thought it was just german-free coin
17:18 < maaku> which it is, go on
17:19 < justanotheruser> then I realized it was made by mark frei-
17:19 < justanotheruser> but I assume its actually made by mark frie
17:20 < maaku> heh yeah. 'frie-' means peaceful, 'frei-' mean free
17:21 < maaku> that one's absolutely a coincidence. besides freigeld predating freicoin by about 100 years, jorge coined the 'freicoin' before i found the project
17:21 < maaku> btw what was the incentive issue?
17:22 < justanotheruser> while demmurage may be good for society as a whole, it is bad for an individual
17:23 < justanotheruser> I'm still skeptical that society can be efficient with a deflationary currency
17:24 < justanotheruser> or at least as efficient as it is now
17:25 < maaku> ah well that's a complicated one to answer in one sentence, but it comes down that in an economy based on demurrage currency real prices are lower
17:25 < justanotheruser> yep.
17:25 < maaku> due to effects on interest rates
17:25 < maaku> a longer discussion probably deserves to be on #freicoin
17:26 < justanotheruser> the incentive problem isn't so much something that breaks freicoin as something that hurts adoption
17:26 < kanzure> working capital accumulation and saving sounds like a useful thing to me
17:26 < kanzure> instead of financing crazy projects with crazy amounts of debt, you can just finance stuff by doing good work
17:26 < justanotheruser> kanzure: in practice it has been problematic
17:27 < kanzure> in what practice tho
17:27 < justanotheruser> I'm not sure how to answer that
17:27 < justanotheruser> but maybe the answer is an example of a country using a deflationary currency?
17:27 < kanzure> bitcoin is a first
17:27 < kanzure> there has been been an actually scarce money
17:27 < justanotheruser> not gold?
17:28 < justanotheruser> inb4 alchemy
17:28 < kanzure> nobody uses gold like that because it's inconvenient
17:30 < maaku> justanotheruser: right, once adopted the benefit should be obvious by comparison, but you don't get those benefits until a large part of the supply chain starts accepting free money (free by Gesell's definition)
17:31 < kanzure> maaku: i have some complaints about the costs of capital equipment
17:31 < justanotheruser> kanzure: there have been convenient gold based currencies
17:31 < maaku> kanzure: don't we all :)
17:31 < kanzure> that's just paper gold
17:31 < justanotheruser> sure
17:31 < kanzure> also the actual available supply of gold is not known, so why would anyone know if the total amount of paper gold adds up?
17:32 < justanotheruser> they wouldn't
17:32 < kanzure> fascinating
17:32 < justanotheruser> lol
17:32 < justanotheruser> the currency wasn't trustless
17:32 < kanzure> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFods1KSWsQ
17:34 < maaku> justanotheruser: there is Woergl to point to
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17:36 < maaku> but i'm more interested in what you get when you combine freicoin scarce money with (old-)ripple credit (both tend towards 0% interest) and commodity basket units of account
17:36 < maaku> that's the direction we are slowly headed towards in freicoin
17:36 < maaku> (with freimarket extensions)
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17:43 < justanotheruser> but you can still study the economic effects of a deflationary currency
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17:44 < justanotheruser> I don't think the economics change that much even when you have a trusted party controlling the currency
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17:52 < justanotheruser> maaku: so freimarkets is being developed for bitcoin and everything from bitcoin including sidechains etc will be moved to freicoin as soon as its ready?
17:59 < maaku> justanotheruser: once it is open sourced by blockstream, it can be ported. jorge and I have written into our employment contracts permission to do exactly this even if it were to pose a conflict of interest to blockstream
17:59 < maaku> (which it doesn't at this time, and I don't foresee it being a conflict, but just in case we insisted on that clause)
17:59 < maaku> jorge's full time job right now is basically implementing a confined-scope version of freimarkets
18:08 < justanotheruser> yes, I wouldn't expect it to be a short term conflict given the market caps no offense :x
18:14 < maaku> well even if freicoin completely overtook bitcoin (one can dream), it should affect BSC. we make our money on currency-neutral services
18:44 < maaku> *it should not
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20:29 < nmz787> sheena: does the speed of dispensing for the cheese matter? i.e. slowly over 5 seconds versus a 'real quick squirt'?
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21:33 < nmz787> sheena: this is what I have so far, it isn't much but I am still learning this CAD system http://www.3dvieweronline.com/share/Y9Ma7JmyO0wKZyY/Y9Ma7JmyO0wKZyY
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23:06 < JayDugger1> Good morning, everyone.
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--- Log closed Sun Feb 01 00:00:41 2015