--- Log opened Thu Feb 12 00:00:52 2015
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01:33 < archels> 'microwave illumination', such a gentle way of putting it
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03:35 < archels> ParahSailin: still no reply on that pipette thing, you're going to have to enlighten us
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05:38 < ParahSailin> misunderstood the problem
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07:01 < heath> http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20150016777
07:03 < heath> https://www.google.com/patents/US20130128230?dq=magic+leap&hl=en&sa=X&ei=N77cVKaiI8qZNqLKgegC&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBA
07:04 < heath> https://www.google.com/patents/US20130125027
07:04 < heath> and more but the query is there in the second link for anyone who cares
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07:38 < kanzure> hmm
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08:07  * Guest35585 presents every multiplayer networked game as prior art
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09:29  * heath wants a cross platform AR framework
09:32 < nmz787_i> heath, for the parrot drone?
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09:42 < heath> nmz787_i: no
09:42 < heath> an experimental game
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10:19 < nmz787_i> openBCI would be $12.50/board for 100 boards assembled, not including component BOM (which I assume would be $15-$40)... so my guess is ~$50 per board, plus electrodes would be ~$90
10:53 < kanzure> hahaha these guys have a pop-up asking the user to invest in their company https://trubrain.com/products/drinks
10:53 < kanzure> isn't that illegal
10:53 < kanzure> pretty sure solicitation is illegal
11:22 < kanzure> 11:15 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, http://www.sec.gov/News/PressRelease/Detail/PressRelease/1370539707782
11:22 < kanzure> .title
11:22 < yoleaux> SEC.gov | SEC Approves JOBS Act Requirement to Lift General Solicitation Ban
11:28 < ParahSailin> yeah not really
11:29 < kanzure> hm?
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11:47 < ParahSailin> the sec didnt significantly change any rules
11:47 < kanzure> v. confused. solicitation yes/no?
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13:01 < ParahSailin> solicitation no
13:02 < ParahSailin> unfortunate goatse logo http://techcrunch.com/2015/02/11/uber-for-massage-soothe/?ncid=rss&cps=gravity_1462_-7112612496890880976
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13:06 < maaku> do I dare click that link...
13:07 < maaku> ParahSailin: i think the fact that those hands are gripping the boobs of the woman in the background, and there are big boobies to the right means no one will make that connection ;)
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13:35 < nmz787_i> jrayhawk: kanzure maybe this for monitors? http://hackaday.com/2015/02/12/building-things-with-lean-pipe/
13:38 < ParahSailin> looks like that stuff would be hard to get outside of the eu
13:44 < kanzure> we should all move to russia
13:44 < kanzure> into one of those spacious abandoned supercolliders
13:45 < maaku> kanzure: there's one of those in Texas, no?
13:45 < kanzure> we can all adopt hilarious soviet names, i can be comrade bishoff.. wait....
13:45 < maaku> "spacious" and "abandoned" describes most of russia i think
13:45 < maaku>  we should totally turn the SSC into a hobo city
13:46 < kanzure> +1 maaku for vice president of nefarious plots
13:46 < maaku> :)
13:46 < kanzure> and other plottery
13:56 < jrayhawk> nmz787_i: Neat.
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16:44 < justanotheruser> you guys ever do DIY medical treatment?
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16:44 < justanotheruser> I probably will try to stitch myself next time I need stitches
16:45 < AmbulatoryCortex> That sounds like a good way to get some interesting scars
16:45 < AmbulatoryCortex> or lose a limb
16:45 < AmbulatoryCortex> y'know, whatever
16:45 < justanotheruser> if I do it as good as the doctors, I don't think so
16:46 < AmbulatoryCortex> That's a pretty big if
16:46 < justanotheruser> yeah, I can probably only do it as good as a really bad new doctor
16:47 < justanotheruser> and by new I mean never stitched a person before
16:48 < nmz787_i> yup
16:48 < nmz787_i> i patched up an axe wound about a month and a half ago
16:48 < nmz787_i> on a friend
16:49 < nmz787_i> didn't have a good needle though, only sterile suture thread
16:49 < nmz787_i> amazon has flesh staplers though so I probably should get one of those
16:50 < nmz787_i> when my wisdom teeth were coming in when i was 20 I took a scalpel to my gums and slashed them a bit, my thought was that o
16:50 < nmz787_i> i'd either kill the nerves sooner than the teeth would naturally, or that I'd increase my pain tolerance faster so they wouldn't feel such a nuisance
16:51 < nmz787_i> then I also elected to eat baby carrots using that part of my mouth, to try and effect the same thing (boost pain tolerance and smash the gums to death)
16:52 < nmz787_i> i took a wilderness first responder class about 9 years ago though, so we learned a bunch of stuff over like 3 or 5 days, including how to pull traction on a broken femur/leg and split it with like tree branches... how to make makeshift litters to carry people out of the back-country, etc
16:54 < nmz787_i> i've also operated on animals a few times for classes (monoclonal antibody production)
16:59 < bci> https://techcrunch.com/2015/02/12/nootropics-arent-just-for-tech-millionaires/
16:59 < bci> Projecting forward, we think the next natural step is that nootropics will be mainstream. They’ll be found in your local corner store next to Red Bull and next to your office espresso machine.  <= more likely they'll try to ban nootropics and sell your their own waterered down redbull equivalents
17:00 < bci> http://www.theonion.com/articles/adderall-receives-honorary-degree-from-harvard,17527/
17:04 < kanzure> that article is full of crap, see hacker news comments so that i don't have to persuade you
17:04 < kanzure> also the title is obviously inflammatory and bullshit and you should feel bad for being tricked into downloading anything with that sort of title
17:05 < kanzure> (for example: does it pass the simplest possible test? "are nootropics only for millionaires?" "hmm")
17:05 < kanzure> actually, get out
17:05 < bci> fairly ridic but it is techcrunch
17:05 < kanzure> why would you read techcrunch man
17:05 < kanzure> argh
17:06 < bci> oh in this case i'm just watching how the MSM is going to bend the public perception on noots
17:06 < nmz787_i> bci: are you involved in openBCI?
17:06 < bci> no
17:07 < justanotheruser> nmz787_i: why didn't he go to a hospital? Just because it's cheap?
17:07 < bci> this is about the point they make a sales pitch or build a case against it to the public
17:07 < justanotheruser> lel techcrunch Attackers might be trying to steal your information from techcrunch.com (for example, passwords, messages, or credit cards).
17:07 < nmz787_i> justanotheruser: no insurance, walk-in clinic wanted like $300 just to even take a look...
17:08 < nmz787_i> wal-greens had the super-glue and alcohol and bandage strips for prob like $15 or $20
17:09 < nmz787_i> err, iodine I guess, and he actually had that
17:10 < justanotheruser> Heh
17:10 < bci> http://news.sciencemag.org/biology/2014/12/researchers-make-blood-vessels-grow-shining-light-skin?rss=1
17:11 < nmz787_i> similar case for when I had some ringworm... they wanted $300 not including the meds... ebay had the WHO-approved brand for like $50 and I didn't even have to get off my ass
17:11 < bci> we should be downloading our healthcare by now
17:11 < fenn> make sure to get wound-glue not regular super glue
17:12 < nmz787_i> fenn: yeah he had some irritation after the second week
17:12  * bci prints out RGD peptide hydrogel for nmz787 
17:12 < nmz787_i> fenn: is there any UV-curable wound-glue?
17:12 < fenn> "ouch there's an axe in my eye!"
17:12 < fenn> minor irritation
17:12 < justanotheruser> bci: are you phm
17:12 < nmz787_i> fenn: I found some stuff for making fishing lures,etc... seems like it'd be great in a dire emergency
17:12 < bci> no
17:13 < fenn> loctite now sells "ultragel" which may or may not be the same thing
17:13 < nmz787_i> bci: where can I buy some though?
17:13 < fenn> i wonder why it took 50 years to come up with tougher superglue
17:13 < kanzure> bci: the public can screw off
17:13 < bci> that'd be nice, honestly i haven't looked
17:13 < kanzure> bci: why should you care what they think
17:13 < kanzure> hmm you seem to read the news a lot
17:14 < kanzure> you should stop
17:14 < nmz787_i> http://solarez.com/
17:14 < bci> <kanzure> bci: why should you care what they think <- "If you don't develop a strategy of your own, you become a part of someone else's strategy."
17:14 < kanzure> yes.. so stop reading the news
17:14 < justanotheruser> are many nootropics worth it?
17:14 < bci> yeh, i get your point there for sure
17:14 < nmz787_i> they don't sell it for med applications at all, but if you were bleeding out this shit seems like it would patch over in a pinch... who cares about irritation at that point
17:15 < fenn> justanotheruser: how long is a string?
17:15 < justanotheruser> In my experience, they have marginal benefits at best
17:15 < kanzure> justanotheruser: didn't you find a drug that was working for you?
17:15 < bci> but if they cut off a supply line, i'd like to know early enough to prepare a new one
17:15 < kanzure> you were just asking me the other day about it
17:15 < justanotheruser> kanzure: yes
17:15 < kanzure> so why are you asking that question
17:15 < kanzure> aaaaaa
17:15 < justanotheruser> kanzure: because I'm curious about the space
17:15 < kanzure> but you already know the answer?
17:16 < justanotheruser> no
17:16 < kanzure> (i am shooting death rays from my eye sockets at you right now)
17:16 < justanotheruser> I said many because I know stimulants like coffee and adderall work for me
17:16 < fenn> have you tested yourself objectively?
17:16 < justanotheruser> all the other stuff, fish oil, piracetam, etc don't
17:17 < fenn> or is it just "i like adderall, it makes me feel good"
17:17 < justanotheruser> It's not objective, but it's more like "I like adderall, I can focus easily on it"
17:17 < kanzure> "i like adderall, i don't go an entire day without forming a coherent sentence"
17:17 < justanotheruser> caffeine has a similar effect, but only when I take enough that I feel bad
17:18 < fenn> vinpocetine and ginkgo go well with caffeine
17:18 < fenn> wait why am i participating in this conversation
17:18 < kanzure> you were tricked
17:19 < kanzure> we all were
17:19  * fenn snorts some ginkgo
17:19 < fenn> there now i'm smart enough not to get trolled
17:19  * bci looks around for biohackers
17:19 < kanzure> bci: troll harder
17:20 < bci> well
17:20 < bci> those are barely nootropics
17:20 < bci> adderall is more neurotoxic than it is nootropic
17:20 < kanzure> yes, nothing meets my requirements: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/nootropics/minimally-viable-nootropic/
17:21 < bci> try some NSI-189, magnesium l-threonate and dimethylglycine (1-2gram dose)
17:22 < justanotheruser> what software does the wiki use?
17:22 < kanzure> piny, ikiwiki, git, cgit
17:22 < bci> degenerative<------>generative
17:22 < kanzure> your diagram is beautiful, bci
17:22 < kanzure> are you a redditor
17:22 < kanzure> i bet you are a redditor
17:22 < fenn> .wik NSI-189
17:23 < bci> heh no
17:23 < yoleaux> fenn: Sorry, that command (.wik) crashed.
17:23 < kanzure> hm you're not in that channel
17:23 < kanzure> yeah i would have kicked you out
17:23 < justanotheruser> Yes, ikiwiki looks to be what I like
17:23 < bci> well thats good news
17:23 < bci> :)
17:23 < kanzure> justanotheruser: front page of wiki has instructions for contributing, use git
17:24 < justanotheruser> Hopefully I can try to catch up, but all I know about is Bitcoin
17:24 < kanzure> what?
17:25 < kanzure> you seem to know other things
17:25 < kanzure> are you a different justanotheruser ?
17:25 < justanotheruser> I can't evaluate that
17:25 < justanotheruser> All I know is Bitcoin
17:25 < fenn> he's sending out fluff camouflage statements to increase his anonymity quotient
17:26 < justanotheruser> In terms of topics usually discussed in this channel, the only thing I would be able to contribute is Bitcoin related AFAICS
17:29 < justanotheruser> but it looks like all the commits are bitcoin related as of recent
17:29 < justanotheruser> and then there was that marcov bot
17:39 < fenn> bci: why DMG instead of just choline?
17:41 < bci> choline is good too
17:42 < bci> its just that particular stack is going to give you the best bang for your buck w/ the NSI-189
17:42 < bci> dmg increases methylation
17:43 < bci> during that first month dose of nsi-189 when you're experiencing the most neurogenesis
17:43 < bci> the increased methylation will help with the biogenesis of new dna/rna and neurotransmitters
17:43 < bci> you sort of bliss out into a new field of happiness
17:44 < bci> its also fairly ergogenic
17:46 < fenn> is NSI-189 even something one could acquire without having a lab synthesize it?
17:46 < bci> its out there
17:46 < fenn> as "NSI-189"?
17:47 < bci> yeh
17:47 < bci> just have to look around rly
17:51 < fenn> nmz787_i: solarez is about 1.5x the cost of makerjuice and isn't colored and has very few options
17:52 < ebowden> You can get NSI-189.
17:54 < ebowden> Oh, nevermind.
17:54 < nmz787_i> fenn: makerjuice is also UV-curable?
17:54 < bci> lowest price i remember seeing was in the 40-50USD range
17:54 < ebowden> They don't stock it anymore. But it's not too difficult a synth.
17:54 < bci> but i've seen price gauging from 80-120USD
17:55 < bci> i see some currently on ebay at 80
17:55 < nmz787_i> fenn: I wonder if makerjuice is also adhesive though
17:55 < bci> but ja alot of the regular spots seem to be tapped out atm
17:56 < fenn> i'm trying to remember the name of the blue light cure resin supplier... thought it was camptown plastics but i'm not finding anything
17:57 < fenn> resin prices went up in 2014, according to the makerjuice blog
17:58 < fenn> "all of our resins, cures under UV A, B, and C light up to around 420nm. You can cure it with a DLP projector, a UV laser, or UV leds. "
18:02 < fenn> hmm there's a $22 quart of solarez on ebay
18:03 < heath> https://github.com/ryanss/vim-hackernews
18:04 < fenn> i think it wouldn't work right for 3d printers without adding a uv-absorbing dye to limit the depth of cure
18:04 < nmz787_i> but none of them do that now anyway really
18:04 < nmz787_i> they do it based on focal point
18:04 < fenn> "The sun or artificial UV light will cure whatever areas of resin are exposed to the UV radiation and the resin will rapidly cure and gently exotherm, warming and accelerating the other shadowed areas that are bathed in the mildly catalyzed resin."
18:05 < fenn> nmz787_i: not true, there's no way they could get prints with such high quality without a dye
18:05 < fenn> it's not two-photon
18:06 < fenn> i mean, that would be an interesting thing to do (high power green laser?) but i don't think anyone is doing that now
18:06 < nmz787_i> fenn: most of them project through the resin
18:06 < nmz787_i> i.e. the formlabs
18:07 < nmz787_i> i always assumed solids simply accumulated in the resin bath the longer you used it
18:13 < heath> .title http://www.nature.com/nphoton/journal/v8/n12/full/nphoton.2014.251.html
18:13 < yoleaux> Time-reversed adapted-perturbation (TRAP) optical focusing onto dynamic objects inside scattering media : Nature Photonics : Nature Publishing Group
18:13 < heath> http://live.iop-pp01.agh.sleek.net/physicsworld/reader/#!edition/editions_medical-2015/article/page-5896
18:13 < heath> .title
18:13 < yoleaux> Physics World
18:14 < heath> "Current and future imaging trends"
18:14 < justanotheruser> paperbot: https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1132867
18:14 < paperbot> http://libgen.info/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1145%2F1132863.1132867
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18:20 < justanotheruser> paperbot: https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1132867
18:20 < paperbot> http://libgen.info/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1145%2F1132863.1132867
18:20 < justanotheruser> damnit paperbot that link 404s
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18:31 < heath> for those needing some love in their life: http://crockpotveggies.com/2015/02/09/automating-tinder-with-eigenfaces.html
18:33 < heath> guess that's almost off topic
18:33 < bci> rly there should be more research into sexual attraction biohacks
18:34 < bci> http://www.ehbonline.org/article/S1090-5138%2810%2900116-9/abstract
18:34 < bci> exploiting the carrot juice to pussy ratio
18:42 < bci> http://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/xge-139-3-399.pdf
18:42 < fenn> "you seem to like people who smile"
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18:47 < fenn> "lean pipe" is a wimpy version of speed rail: http://www.hollaender.com/?page=speedrail
18:48 < fenn> also if you just want 3 monitors it's much easier to use a swing arm mount
18:48 < fenn> something something fence post
18:49 < fenn> i like the knock-off metro shelving at target
18:52 < fenn> i've put a lot of heavy machine tool crap on them, so i see no reason to get the acutal metro brand shelving (which has a higher weight limit)
18:54 < fenn> roughly $1/ft^3 of shelving ($50 for 6 foot tall 5-shelf version)
18:54 < kanzure> is this still about smiling?
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18:54 < fenn> smiling was the tinder bot eigenface thing
18:55 < kanzure> i'm not hearing no
18:56 < bci> https://i.imgur.com/5U371r9.png
18:56 < fenn> nmz787_i: pasted a link about "lean pipe" 5 hours ago...
18:56 < fenn> s/://
18:57 < fenn> i'm actually curious what's supporting those touchscreen control panels
18:58 < fenn> i like the dual isogrid wall
18:58 < bci> mm
18:59 < fenn> .title http://youtu.be/y41sd-haRR8
18:59 < yoleaux> Automated Composite Isogrid Fabrication - YouTube
19:00 < fenn> regular isogrid can use continuous tension elements, but you have to weave them and they bunch up where they overlap, so you probably want to do "quarter isogrid" if using carbon fiber or pre-cut beams
19:01 < fenn> int he video they have a small triangle-shaped offset at the vertices to prevent the overlap from bunching up too much
19:04 < fenn> sorry that was a terrible video
19:08 < fenn> .title http://youtu.be/iODb_hJL9eE
19:08 < yoleaux> AI Robotic Layup Heads for Isogrid Panels - YouTube
19:12 < fenn> http://www.spacex.com/sites/spacex/files/v2_seats.jpg
19:13 < kanzure> pfft
19:13 < fenn> hey it's shiny
19:13 < kanzure> i've been thinking about hiring an organic chemist
19:13 < fenn> do it
19:14 < kanzure> that's lousy advice
19:15 < fenn> well i have a 50% chance of being right
19:15 < nmz787_i> i know a guy who might work
19:15 < nmz787_i> chem engi
19:16 < nmz787_i> he has actually come in here a few times
19:16 < nmz787_i> i think using random names though
19:16 < nmz787_i> not too often
19:17 < fenn> i'm pretty sure all of spacex design inspiration comes from mass effect 2
19:17 < kanzure> fuck now you got nathan excited
19:17 < kanzure> here comes the message spam
19:18 < nmz787_i> fenn that beefy lean pipe doesn't have pricing though :/
19:18 < kanzure> "hey man why don't you dump $500k into this hole of misery"
19:18 < kanzure> (not seen: messages off screen)
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19:19 < kanzure> nmz787_i: we still have some rather fundamental engineering differences
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19:20 < nmz787_i> everyone is different
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19:20 < nmz787_i> not sure why you're mentioning that though
19:20 < nmz787_i> I am no chemist to be hired.
19:20 < kanzure> "everyone is different" is irrelevant
19:21 < kanzure> it means i am less likely to analyze your ideas because there are lots of known biases that i need to account for
19:21 < kanzure> the more biases i need to correct for the more trouble it is to bother
19:21 < nmz787_i> ok, I didn't know my differences made me less valuable.
19:22 < kanzure> what else could possibly make anyone less valuable?
19:22 < nmz787_i> being an idiot
19:22 < kanzure> that's not a difference?
19:22 < nmz787_i> differences can be more valuable in some cases.
19:24 < kanzure> if you worked on a project that had microfeatures but did not have valves would you be mortally crippled?
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19:24 < nmz787_i> no, the second to last microfluidic model I made had no valves
19:25 < nmz787_i> (also got a guy that could handle some HF operations)
19:26 < kanzure> i was not aware that you would be okay with that
19:28 < nmz787_i> yeah man, I just don't think it's as interesting or potentially awesome in the long-run... but I am OK with it.
19:28 < nmz787_i> or maybe that I think there are other things that need worked on at the same time, and have been thinking of those things moreso.
19:29 < kanzure> fenn would be extremely upset if i told him no hexagons
19:30 < nmz787_i> hexagons for?
19:30 < kanzure> that's the symbol sowed on to his cape
19:31 < fenn> have you accepted the hexagon as your one true saviour?
19:32 < nmz787_i> fenn: checkout these https://github.com/nmz787/python-brlcad-tcl/tree/master/examples
19:33 < fenn> why
19:33 < kanzure> because he doesn't want to write a parser generator
19:33 < nmz787_i> any opinions?
19:33 < kanzure> or learn tcl
19:33 < nmz787_i> if anything this has been helping me to learn tcl
19:33 < kanzure> ouch
19:34 < nmz787_i> I found a bug in the g-stl with the hilbert-2d example
19:34 < fenn> http://hexagrahamaton.tumblr.com/image/51325081533
19:34 < kanzure> is this a tumblr for hexagonkin
19:34 < fenn> no
19:35 < kanzure> "I strongly identify as a hexagon and I find it disgusting that society does not extend me the courtesy of addressing me as my preferred pronoun, 'Stewart'."
19:35 < fenn> that's stupid
19:35 < nmz787_i> fenn: so can a hexagon define a cuboid thing?
19:35 < kanzure> you're the one with the tumblr link
19:35 < kanzure> time for you to indoctrinate him into the hexagon cult
19:35 < nmz787_i> like the graphic here? http://hexnet.org/content/permutohedron
19:35 < fenn> i'm annoyed tumblr is so infested with SJW outragists
19:36 < nmz787_i> makes me think of this http://hackaday.io/project/2396-volumetric-circuits
19:36 < fenn> are you talking about a cuboctahedron?
19:37 < fenn> (yes i've read the permutohedron article)
19:39 < fenn> that "volumetric circuits" thing is cute but it ends up in a diamond lattice in the end so why not just start with that
19:40 < kanzure> er i meant stewart platforms and domes
19:42 < fenn> before chip ICs were invented "cordwood construction" was common http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printed_circuit_board#Cordwood_construction
19:43 < fenn> i think it's still a good idea
19:44 < fenn> have to be careful that the leads never touch though
19:44 < fenn> dunk the whole thing in solarez resin :P
19:44 < kanzure> it's really too bad that planar circuit stuff wasn't figured out sooner
19:44 < kanzure> what were all the photographers doing?
19:45 < fenn> sooner? it happened basically right after the transistor was popularized
19:45 < kanzure> i can understand why it never happened before, say, the 1800s-- everyone thought anything involving optical reduction was devil magic, so they were not really looking in those directions.
19:46 < kanzure> but once they were regularly using reduction and magnification i don't have a good answer
19:46 < nmz787_i> they didn't even make achromatic lenses then
19:46 < fenn> wait, are you talking about IC chips or PCBs?
19:46 < kanzure> even quite large surfaces would have been acceptable
19:46 < nmz787_i> an probably didn't think about photoresist
19:46 < fenn> PCB requires no reduction optics
19:47 < fenn> monochromatic light doesn't need achromatic lenses (duh)
19:47 < fenn> "actinic rays"
19:48 < kanzure> i suppose i didn't pick pcb or integrated chip as the subject of this rant
19:48 < kanzure> um, either?
19:48 < kanzure> most people probably just nailed shit into a piece of plywood and called it a day
19:49 < nmz787_i> how well could they make prisms though? they didn't know about gratings then
19:49 < fenn> they did know about gratings and there was a huge race to make the best diffraction ruling engine
19:49 < nmz787_i> wasn't the early 1800s just when that all started though
19:50 < nmz787_i> kanzure said 'before', say, the 1800s
19:50 < fenn> yes and that was around the time of early electrical circuits
19:50 < kanzure> i could see some argument about "well it's not worth bothering if you don't have a good transistor".. but meh...
19:51 < fenn> that's not really true though; there are tons of complex control circuits one can make with passive components (and relays)
19:51 < kanzure> hmm.
19:51 < fenn> tesla had a remote controlled steamship (with no relays?)
19:51 < fenn> all saturated core inductors and resonant circuits
19:52 < kanzure> then i'm still struggling to explain them.
19:52 < fenn> because mass production didnt exist until the 1910s
19:52 < fenn> everything was a handmade prototype
19:52 < fenn> there were hardly even interchangeable parts
19:53 < fenn> not surprisingly the wikipedia article on "circuit" has no "history" section
19:55 < fenn> .wik magic eye tube
19:55 < yoleaux> "A magic eye indicator, called in technical literature an electron-ray indicator tube, is a vacuum tube which gives a visual indication of the strength of an electronic signal, such as an audio output, radio-frequency signal strength, or other functions. It is also called a cat's eye, or tuning eye in America." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_eye_tube
19:56 < kanzure> "technical literature"
19:56 < fenn> as opposed to ham shack chickenscratch
19:57 < nmz787_i> is that like a .wik electrometer
19:57 < nmz787_i> .wik electrometer
19:57 < yoleaux> nmz787_i: Sorry, that command (.wik) crashed.
19:58 < fenn> not really
19:59 < kanzure> how is there no mass-produced single-object engine
19:59 < kanzure> single-object single-manufacturing-process
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20:01 < fenn> oh my bad, i thought transistor was "invented" in 1956, but it was 1947
20:02 < fenn> (actually invented by oleg losev in 1920's)
20:07 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Motorolagoldenviewchassis.jpg
20:07 < fenn> (an actual commercial product)
20:07 < kanzure> "View of the underside of a chassis of a 1948 Motorola VT-71 "Golden View" 7" television set"
20:08 < kanzure> well... i suppose if it works...
20:09 < kanzure> has the advantage of being much easier to tweak and repair
20:09 < fenn> not really
20:09 < kanzure> what are you going to do, get out your 10 micron fingers and dust off your tiny transistor?
20:10 < fenn> oh, i thought you meant vs a PCB
20:10 < kanzure> how is this mounted anyway
20:10 < kanzure> are these hanging?
20:11 < kanzure> there's an entire side that i can't see so it is hard for me to tell
20:13 < kanzure> er, anyway, if things tend to be so expensive, doing things tiny and small seems like a good way to work around that general problem
20:13 < fenn> yep
20:13 < kanzure> reagents are an obvious example but there are others that are often overlooked
20:13 < fenn> houses
20:13 < kanzure> i meant in the case of things you would be doing on a planar chip
20:14 < fenn> planar houses
20:14 < kanzure> for bacteria and yeast, sure
20:14 < fenn> UAV's
20:15 < kanzure> what do you mean?
20:15 < fenn> lots of UAV's are big for no good reason
20:16 < fenn> to carry around glass lenses (when a mirror optic would be more appropriate)
20:16 < kanzure> more specifically i was thinking of something along the lines of this: since most people don't seem to be able to afford any of the big equipment, compressing all of the costs into the optics and spatial light modulation would be a good magic trick because then you have a general platform for manipulating tiny amounts of material...
20:17 < kanzure> but building things like an optical trap is pretty hard still, even with tiny disposable one-off planar platforms
20:17 < kanzure> just having electron or water flow isn't enough
20:18 < fenn> "the big equipment" meaning what exactly?
20:18 < kanzure> anything fun costs too much and blows your budget
20:19 < fenn> and you think this is related to size?
20:19 < kanzure> $5k thermocycler, $200k here, $500k there, things start to add up
20:19 < fenn> optical tweezers isn't that hard
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20:20 < kanzure> was just random example
20:20 < kanzure> as for size: i have no reasonable way to explain why all this shit costs so much
20:20 < fenn> it's the somebody-else's-money problem
20:21 < fenn> "$50k for that? no problem, i'll add it to our budget"
20:21 < fenn> leads to price inflation
20:21 < kanzure> it seems like it's related to manufacturing in an economic sense, so things get priced at how valuable they are (based on how much profit they can create etc etc)
20:21 < fenn> this applies to most business2business transactions, and science of course (which isn't exactly a business)
20:22 < kanzure> so as a result the prices seem high relative to everything else because they are the actually useful items that could be bought
20:22 < kanzure> whereas everything else is worthless junk
20:22 < fenn> it's a market failure
20:22 < kanzure> go on
20:22 < fenn> capital goods dont actually cost that much to produce, but the demand is low so the price is high (yeah i know, economics is stupid)
20:23 < kanzure> the demand is low because nobody wants to spend $500k for that
20:23 < fenn> not true, the demand is low because most people don't build things
20:23 < fenn> or do science
20:23 < fenn> or whatever
20:23 < kanzure> i think that given the option that people would choose to build things
20:23 < fenn> you are wrong
20:23 < fenn> people are lazy and stupid
20:23 < kanzure> i am also lazy and stupid
20:24 < fenn> and how many things have you built in the past year?
20:24 < kanzure> hundreds of thousands of dollars of stuff
20:24 < fenn> "stuff" made out of zeroes and ones
20:24 < fenn> which requires no capital goods
20:25 < kanzure> that's your elitist machinist greybeard talking
20:25 < fenn> hm. well i built a seed starter out of an egg carton...
20:25 < fenn> and bought a bunch of stuff off amazon
20:25 < fenn> so i'm not trying to be elitist
20:25 < kanzure> that's not what i said
20:25 < bci> the world is virtualizing
20:26 < kanzure> go fuck yourself bci
20:26 < bci> ???
20:26 < kanzure> historically, machinists (i mean the ones trapped in shops all day) just hate anyone working on computers
20:26 < kanzure> but that's not their fault
20:26 < fenn> yeah because they are clueless and have no idea that using the default 0.001" tolerance is life-ruining for the guy who actually tries to make the part to spec
20:26 < kanzure> right
20:27 < kanzure> there are many good reasons to hate them
20:27 < fenn> they = newbie engineers using cad software
20:27 < kanzure> but there's also conventional in/out group stuff happening
20:27 < fenn> sure but i dont care about that
20:27 < kanzure> yes but my point is that computers aren't useless
20:27 < fenn> machinists use computers all the time
20:27 < kanzure> "zeroes and ones don't count man"
20:28 < kanzure> indeed
20:28 < fenn> you were asking why capital goods were expensive
20:28 < kanzure> oh right
20:28 < kanzure> so size certainly doesn't help
20:28 < kanzure> and mass either
20:28 < fenn> if 99% of the people are producing zeroes and ones, they don't have much use for capital goods
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20:29 < kanzure> whatever happened to cement cnc?
20:29 < fenn> was that a project i was supposed to be working on?
20:29 < fenn> are you talking about "contour crafting" (automated building) or a concrete frame machine tool?
20:29 < kanzure> kinda, but only in the sense that you should file bug reports upstream when you come across them
20:30 < kanzure> concrete frame
20:30 < fenn> i actually have a situation where building that makes sense now
20:30 < kanzure> hm.
20:31 < kanzure> well, when you need money just ask
20:31 < fenn> it shouldnt cost much
20:31 < fenn> accuracy is overrated anyway
20:31 < fenn> er, precision. blah
20:31 < fenn> stupid germans
20:31 < kanzure> germans caused term conflation there?
20:32 < fenn> no, germans are obsessed with precision
20:33 < fenn> .g accuracy vs precision
20:33 < yoleaux> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_and_precision
20:34 < fenn> i've never heard of "trueness" applied in this sense
20:37 < kanzure> all of the electronics in a shop or lab should be the same as much as possible except for whatever must be absolutely different to accomodate something weird or unusual
20:38 < fenn> there are a lot of weird and unusual things to be accomodated in a lab
20:38 < kanzure> also the same should go for structural framing if framing is even necessary
20:39 < kanzure> why is everything using separate electronics anyway
20:39 < fenn> i think cost should factor in, unless you want to buy several tons of 80/20
20:39 < kanzure> wouldn't a lab be the ideal place for a mainframe or something
20:39 < fenn> no, what? that's a terrible idea
20:39 < fenn> shame!
20:39 < kanzure> i don't mean an actual mainframe
20:39 < kanzure> but you don't need twenty thermocyclers each with custom chips sampling temperature on their own
20:40 < fenn> a lab would be an ideal place for ethernet
20:40 < fenn> wifi maybe
20:40 < fenn> i wish USB had been power over ethernet
20:40 < fenn> some crappy 5V version of PoE
20:41 < kanzure> that synthetic organic chemist that i pay should be paid to figure out how to store those chemicals for longer than a few weeks for phosphoramidite chemistry
20:42 < kanzure> that would be a useful thing to do
20:42 < fenn> today i received an inline USB current and voltage meter
20:42 < kanzure> i don't want to deal with that scheduling nightmare ("gotta use it or die")
20:43 < fenn> what if there's no answer?
20:43 < fenn> and how do you determine "no answer" vs "crappy chemist"
20:43 < fenn> surely others have tried to figure this out?
20:44 < kanzure> i suspect others have figured this out, or they store precursors or some other derivatives instead
20:44 < kanzure> or that the instructions are lying
20:44 < kanzure> (instructions might be lying s that you buy more stuff from the suppliers)
20:44 < kanzure> *so
20:45 < kanzure> and also, if they just need us to paint some bottles black, we can paint some bottles black
20:45 < fenn> so if the chemicals last longer in an unopened bottle, maybe you can just keep them in smaller bottles
20:47 < kanzure> or open them only under argon
20:47 < kanzure> ... a little bit extreme. i prefer your slution.
20:47 < kanzure> *solution
20:47 < fenn> http://www.dx.com/p/dc62-led-display-usb-power-charger-data-transmit-current-voltage-tester-white-315316
20:47 < fenn> argon is fine for rebottling (i guess)
20:48 < fenn> vacuum is cheaper than argon :P
20:48 < kanzure> also i forget if the entire machine is kept under argon pressure, but if so then keeping bottles hooked up should not be problematic and doesn't explain their "expiry"
20:51 < kanzure> oh maybe initial oxygen exposure is enough
20:51 < kanzure> man that sucks
20:58 < kanzure> also i forgot about your "hire lots of cheap science labor" scheme
20:58 < kanzure> we should uh.... do that.
21:05 < kanzure> why don't pipette tips tell you when you tap the edges or surface of a tube
21:06 < nmz787_i> electroplating is more $
21:07 < nmz787_i> I wonder if this would work https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/x89XVFQf
21:07 < fenn> you could sense it with acoustic vibrations
21:08 < nmz787_i> https://github.com/davidk/electroscope
21:08 < fenn> or a webcam
21:08 < nmz787_i> hmm, piezo crystal to sense vibes?
21:08 < fenn> yeah
21:08 < nmz787_i> or an accelerometer?
21:09 < fenn> no
21:09 < fenn> you'd want to drive the tip with some vibrations and sense when they are dampened by the friction with the tube wall
21:10 < nmz787_i> hrmm, BLDC vibration motor and sense back-emf?
21:10 < fenn> too much vibration
21:10 < nmz787_i> or similar with piezo
21:11 < nmz787_i> I guess that would be some kind of phase difference detector
21:11 < kanzure> just small cloth + piezo sensor that you place on small tube while you're holding it with pipette in other hand
21:11 < fenn> oh you're doing it by hand?
21:11 < fenn> then i dont know what the problem is
21:11 < nmz787_i> but that wouldn't work for all items kanzure
21:11 < kanzure> fenn: the problem is that errors happen
21:11 < kanzure> and it is good to know about them
21:11 < fenn> the errors are usually of the type "did i add reagent X to this tube?"
21:12 < nmz787_i> hrmm, I guess it depends on how conductive the media is
21:12 < nmz787_i> physically conductive
21:12 < nmz787_i> is that phonons?
21:12 < fenn> there is some vision software to keep track of what you did
21:12 < fenn> no, phonons are electromagnetic
21:13 < kanzure> maybe i'm misremembering but there were concerns to be had about tip contact with walls
21:13 < fenn> that's ridiculous
21:13 < fenn> if you're pipetting around zeptoliters of solution you are doing it wrong
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21:39 < kanzure> fenn: http://www.reddit.com/r/Glitch_in_the_Matrix/comments/2ee4h1/i_vaguely_recall_verne_troyer_dying_a_few_years/
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22:01 < fenn_> hmm.
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22:02 < fenn> derp
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22:10 < fenn> wtf who is that
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22:13  * fenn bites his tail furiously
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22:53 < maaku_> what the hell kind of subreddit is that
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