--- Log opened Sun Feb 22 00:00:01 2015
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01:58 < archels> fenn: neat, reminds me of the optimal power transfer theorem in electronics, which is when the external load is exactly equal to the internal load of the power source
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04:41 < kanzure> beep bloop
04:50 < justanotheruser> hello
04:54 < kanzure> hi
04:58 < justanotheruser> this is pretty neato http://www.getmagicnow.com/
04:59 < kanzure> "yes i would like one hundred liters of human blood. please hurry."
04:59 < justanotheruser> Well it has to be legal
05:00 < kanzure> blood is legal
05:00 < justanotheruser> (I don't know if that is)
05:00 < justanotheruser> Is it legal for you to own without a some special government approval stamp?
05:00 < justanotheruser> lol, that sounds dumb
05:01 < justanotheruser> is it legal for you to buy I mean
05:01 < kanzure> many laws are dumb
05:01 < justanotheruser> I mean it sounds dumb because you already own blood
05:01 < justanotheruser> I guess it fills a research purpose
05:01 < justanotheruser> I wonder if they can get you mice
05:02 < kanzure> they could probably figure out snake food mice, but not lab mice
05:08 < justanotheruser> hackernews gets a bit tiring. It's usually a bad bitcoin related idea, a startup, why you're doing X wrong, check out this new language feature, <rust thing here>
05:15 < JayDugger> Let's see if they can deliver bullets.
05:16 < JayDugger> Or even better, liquor.
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07:16 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_trade#The_Red_Market
07:17 < kanzure> "Currently, it is estimated that about 10% of all transplants occur illegally, with the Internet acting as a facilitator.[72] For 2006, it was estimated that at least 4000 prisoners were executed to supply approximately 8000 kidneys and 3000 livers for foreign buyers.[72] In 2007, 2500 kidney transplants were bought in Pakistan, with foreign recipients making up two-thirds of the purchases.[37] As of 2007, the Voluntary Health ...
07:17 < kanzure> ... Association of India estimates that approximately 2000 Indians sell a kidney every year. And in Canada and the United Kingdom, experts estimate that about 30 to 50 patients illegally purchased organs abroad.[39]"
07:17 < kanzure> "skin ($10 per square inch)"
07:18 < kanzure> hmm "While there is a high demand, and correspondingly a very high price, for vital organs such as hearts or lungs, transplant tourism and organ trafficking of these parts is very rare due to the sophisticated nature and the state-of-the-art facilities required for such transplants.[75]"
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08:49 < kanzure> "The solution is obvious though. All humans should live within the same nanometer cube." - #bitcoin-dev
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09:18 < kanzure> _TK_: hi
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09:57 < _TK_> kanzure, hello :)
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10:15 < heath> http://scistarter.com/project/995-Nanocrafter
10:15 < heath> http://blogs.plos.org/citizensci/2015/02/22/nanocrafter-playing-game-synthetic-biology/
10:16 < heath> http://nanocrafter.org/game
10:16 < heath> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaQEQ8Tiu_0
10:16 < yoleaux> Nanocrafter - YouTube
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10:18 < heath> idea: http://www.dezeen.com/2015/02/10/paul-gong-human-hyena-synthetic-biology-rotten-food/
10:19 < FourFire> kanzure, lol
10:20 < kanzure> genius bitcoin strategy http://imgur.com/AIjxOWq
10:27 < heath> google alerts isn't as useful as i thought it was
10:27 < heath> it only monitors news sites
10:27 < heath> time to make a better version of it i guess
10:32 < heath> .title http://www.nature.com/srep/2015/150130/srep08132/full/srep08132.html
10:32 < yoleaux> Synechococcus elongatus UTEX 2973, a fast growing cyanobacterial chassis for biosynthesis using light and CO2 : Scientific Reports : Nature Publishing Group
10:32 < heath> from a group at ut austin
10:33 < heath> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_microfluidics_research_groups
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10:57 < maaku> anyone in this group in berkeley or oakland? i'm going to be up there this afternoon
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11:04 < kanzure> maaku: prolly fenn
11:04 < maaku> i just sent him a PM
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11:44 < kanzure> other things to do with selective breeding programs: easier in vitro fertilization
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11:58 < heath> http://www.bio.anl.gov/microbialbebop.htm
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12:14 < kanzure> i have decided that these people are bad biologists http://intelligence.org/files/EmbryoSelection.pdf
12:15 < kanzure> you don't need to select multiple embryos if you can just inject pre-methylated genomic dna
12:15 < kanzure> and why would you want to extract sperm anyway... just use dna editing.
12:16 < kanzure> this is infuriating. i never knew this paper was so awful.
12:16 < kanzure> oh this is the 2014 version
12:17 < kanzure> fenn: you should tell carl shulman he is an idiot and he needs to fix this
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12:57 < kanzure> andytoshi: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/Bioelectric%20discharges%20of%20isolated%20cat%20brain%20after%20revival%20from%20years%20of%20frozen%20storage.pdf
12:58 < andytoshi> thx kanzure
12:58 < kanzure> wait a sec.. chaimov is in portland?
12:58 < kanzure> jrayhawk: you should consider finding chaimov. he used to be in here.
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13:57 < jrayhawk> but i don't even like cryogenics
13:58 < jrayhawk> i guess cellular physiology is generally interesting regardless
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14:09 < kanzure> well i knew him for other reasons
14:11 < kanzure> jrayhawk: apparently i was stalking him for quite a while, although i have to admit i have no idea why... http://heybryan.org/shots/2008-01-02-shareyouropml.png
14:11 < kanzure> also i notice that number 6 is jason bobe, heh
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14:13 < justanotheruser> and then theres #21, your brother
14:13 < jrayhawk> ugh, eugene
14:13 < kanzure> justanotheruser: my brother is much more boring
14:14 < kanzure> jrayhawk: oh, nevermind then
14:15 < kanzure> jrayhawk: if anything i need nmz787 to meet genehacker in eugene, not you
14:15 < kanzure> and not chaimov
14:15 < jrayhawk> you could get genehacker and chaimov to meet, at least
14:15 < justanotheruser> wait, your brother is genehacker?
14:15 < jrayhawk> haha
14:15 < kanzure> unfortunately not
14:16 < kanzure> i disowned my brother after he thought i would prefer physical photocopies of a document over email
14:16 < kanzure> *instead of email
14:16 < justanotheruser> Is your brother 60?
14:17 < kanzure> he's a few years younger than me
14:18 < justanotheruser> I don't know anyone in my age range that uses mail when they don't have to
14:22 < kanzure> "If division of labor didn't work, then the whole basis of trade is wrong. You might as well do everything yourself."
14:24 < fenn> your real fake brother is amish
14:24 < fenn> adopt an amish hacker today!
14:24 < kanzure> that's too confusing
14:25 < fenn> okay, your real brother is fake amish, is that better?
14:25 < jrayhawk> trade would also have a basis on available resources independent of division of labor
14:25 < kanzure> jrayhawk: hm interesting
14:26 < kanzure> fenn: i still don't get it
14:26 < jrayhawk> sounds like a brain problem. maybe you should eat more paleo eggs???
14:26 < fenn> didn't andrew start a pig farm and then decide he wasn't really into being a farmer?
14:26 < fenn> or was it dinosaurs
14:26 < jrayhawk> pretty sure it was dinosaurs
14:26 < fenn> raptor ranching
14:27 < fenn> the oldest profession in the world
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14:28 < chris_99> haha
14:29 < jrayhawk> the term "raptor" got co-opted; you'll have to choose some other theropod
14:29 < kanzure> fenn: maaku was searching for you
14:29 < fenn> is it slang for a ruby programmor now?
14:30 < fenn> "calling all tech raptors for disruptive herding"
14:30 < kanzure> fenn: also, you should fix carl's understanding of embryos and genetics... http://intelligence.org/files/EmbryoSelection.pdf
14:30 < fenn> am looking at that paper, and maaku has phone-fail
14:30 < kanzure> fenn: if you need me to help with that i'd be happy to, but i'm 100% sure you know enough to knock some sense into him about this topic. (like, forego the embryos and save time)
14:31 < kanzure> steve used to talk about embryo selection, but i would be very surprised if this is what he had in mind. considering how he knows biology things.
14:32 < fenn> what is your beef with the paper exactly?
14:32 < kanzure> instead of growing embryos you can just do genome editing and methylation upfront, and then insert into a cell/embryo/whatever
14:32 < kanzure> there's no reason for this embryo selection stuff
14:33 < kanzure> and the differentiation into gametes is a little messed up-- seems totally unnecessary.
14:33 < fenn> also i don't get hwo you're supposed to IQ test a bump of cells
14:33 < kanzure> the only reason i could see why you would want to use an actual embryo/fetus is if you are testing its neurons with some sort of probe, which i don't see proposed here at all
14:34 < kanzure> and even if they did propose it, they would have to make some handwavery up about functional correlates of cognitive ability in utero or something.. which afaik has not been studied.
14:34 < fenn> usually people who have children do it as a family, that means more than one parent
14:34 < kanzure> so why not just skip all this embryo stuff and just use one embryo once you want to test some genes, instead of selecting from multiple embryos
14:34  * fenn looks around for more obvious facts
14:35 < kanzure> *selecting from a set of multiple embryos
14:35 < fenn> human cloning is illegal and there's no political will for it
14:35 < fenn> human genetic engineering too
14:35 < fenn> um, what else
14:35 < fenn> unknown unknowns
14:36 < kanzure> human cloning is apparently not illegal in all states
14:36 < kanzure> and also, twins exist
14:37 < fenn> the cognitive impact of cloning protocols is unknown
14:37 < kanzure> you don't have to use "cloning protocols" (i assume you mean somatic cell nuclear transfer)
14:38 < fenn> uh, what then? crispr?
14:39 < fenn> er, nevermind
14:39 < fenn> im confused why you dont like gamets
14:39 < fenn> gametes*
14:39 < kanzure> i don't like the idea of usin embryos instead of up-front genome editing
14:40 < fenn> how do you get to a baby without going through an embryo stage?
14:40 < kanzure> you don't need to go through the embryo stage for every conceivable heritable trait >:(
14:40 < fenn> you don't?
14:41 < kanzure> in the absence of knowledge about dna i think it would be safe to say embryo selection is totally necessary
14:41 < fenn> unless you're aware of some extraordinarily high efficiency transformation vector, i think heritable traits have to go through the germ line at some point
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14:42 < fenn> there's no "apt-get install gene" for the human body
14:42 < kanzure> i wasn't claiming there was
14:43 < kanzure> also, one argument i would accept from you is something about methylation, which you have not argued....
14:43 < kanzure> (but i think most polymerases copy methylation correctly anyway, so meh?)
14:43 < fenn> yes methylation is a problem, but you seem to be aware o that
14:43 < fenn> polymerases do not copy methylation
14:43 < kanzure> what about methyltransferase, is that a thing
14:44 < fenn> that adds methyl groups
14:44 < kanzure> .wik methyltransferase
14:44 < yoleaux> "Methyltransferases are a large group of enzymes that all methylate their substrates but can be split into several subclasses based on their structural features. The most common class of methyltransferases is class I, all of which contain a Rossman fold for binding S-Adenosyl methionine (SAM)." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methyltransferase
14:44 < fenn> it transfers it from folate or whatever to dna or whatever
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14:46 < kanzure> i've never looked at the mechanism of transferring epigenetic state
14:47 < fenn> the blastocyst dna is made from half the mother's dna and half the father's dna, both of which are methylated
14:48 < fenn> the rest is ... "methylation factors" apparently
14:48 < kanzure> i mean enzymatically
14:48 < jrayhawk> there's also the cytosine oxygenases for 5hmC, 5fC and 5caC
14:49 < fenn> yeah ask jrayhawk he knows way more about this than any of us
14:51 < kanzure> assuming that i absolutely had to have physically instantiated gametes, embryos and everything for all of this, i would also worry about selecting embryos that don't actually produce a viable human, but might specialize in whatever genomic changes you were looking for
14:52 < jrayhawk> i have no idea how initial methylation state happens; from what i understand there's nothing during meiosis to record it, but it's possible to severely disrupt a bunch of seemingly one-time epigenetic state-writing processes during the gamete formation phase
14:52 < kanzure> safely disrupt?
14:53 < jrayhawk> which is where all the "crazy" grandparent epigenetic disease papers come from ("crazy" just being an artifact of how badly lifecycles are taught in biology)
14:53 < fenn> because lifecycle begins with meiosis?
14:54 < jrayhawk> that gamete cells are formed in utero, so we have two generations of lifecycle overlap
14:55 < fenn> right
14:56  * fenn mumbles something about the flynn effect
14:59 < jrayhawk> s/nothing during meiosis to record it/nothing during meiosis to record half of it/
15:00 < fenn> it's probably symmetrical anyway
15:00 < jrayhawk> what do you mean "symmetrical"?
15:00 < kanzure> what's the point of doing selection on embryos though. can't you mutate methylated dna anyway?
15:00 < fenn> the same methylation patterns on both strands of diploid dna
15:01 < jrayhawk> both? they're torn apart and reconstructed; the epigenetics are only attached to cysteine.
15:01 < jrayhawk> er
15:01 < jrayhawk> cytosine
15:01 < jrayhawk> that thing
15:01 < fenn> what's torn apart?
15:01 < fenn> dna recombination just swaps huge long sequences around
15:02 < kanzure> i believe he means dna
15:02 < jrayhawk> ah, yeah, okay, nevermind
15:02 < kanzure> no i meant fenn
15:03 < kanzure> or i mean, i meant you
15:03 < fenn> cytosine is the C in GATTACA
15:03 < fenn> (why is there no standard ordering for base pairs)
15:04 < kanzure> ATGC is fairly standard
15:04 < kanzure> that should be your web hosting company
15:04 < fenn> GCAT Labs the most hipster DNA hosting company in the world
15:05 < jrayhawk> man, 'phragmoplast' is a good word
15:06 < fenn> the logo is an alleycat snorting DNA off a wafer
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15:09 < fenn> like this but with more attitude https://abagond.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/flav.jpg
15:10 < kanzure> perhaps it would be prudent to acquire somewhat more recent cultural references
15:10 < kanzure> like ipadchainz
15:10 < fenn> lame
15:10 < kanzure> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-mXhDSIOCaWI/AAAAAAAAAAI/AAAAAAAAAEQ/6Cgo_XtL6f0/photo.jpg
15:12 < fenn> blockchainz the chainz that setz you free
15:12 < kanzure> "i might be wearing a blockchain, but it's still made out of gold"
15:15 < kanzure> wait, weren't we talking about methylation
15:18 < jrayhawk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trithorax-group_proteins christ, this gets complicated
15:21 < kanzure> aren't there also supposed to be mRNA fragments that modify gene expression as well
15:22 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_expression#Transcriptional_regulation
15:27 < jrayhawk> unrelated: http://pubs.acs.org/stoken/presspac/presspac/full/10.1021/am507990m
15:27 < jrayhawk> .title
15:27 < yoleaux> An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
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17:08 < kanzure> well, an in vitro fertilization chip is doable if that's necessary
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17:37 < nmz787> i've been thinking of how to do that lately
17:38 < nmz787> extracting eggs can lead to complications though, not something i'd really like to subject my mate-of-choice to... which seems like it would lead to less-than-optimal eggs in a personal case, for me at least
17:40 < Viper168> so, you'd have scrambled eggs?
17:40 < kanzure> why are you still here, Viper168
17:41 < Viper168> I love you
17:41 < kanzure> any other reasons?
17:41 < Viper168> because obviously the topic interests me
17:41 < kanzure> yes but your messages are always low quality and awful. so why would you be in here?
17:42 < Viper168> only if you take them seriously
17:42 < kanzure> scrambled eggs is not particularly funny or clever
17:42 < kanzure> if you want to eat human eggs, just say so
17:42 < Viper168> lol
17:58 < nmz787> it seems some in-vivo mechanism would be the only way... pass the sperm through some pre-treatment, then whichever of the selected makes it, initiates a self-check program
18:18 < cluckj> SPERM RACES
18:19 < cluckj> oh I see what you did there
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19:36 < nmz787> $59 quad-core intel CPU talbet with IPS (win 8.1 only it seems) http://www.microcenter.com/product/439773/TW700_Tablet_-_Black
19:37 < nmz787> with USB 2.0 full-size port and micro HDMI
19:37 < nmz787> and micro USB for charging
19:55 < nmz787> .title http://www.adaptagrams.org/
19:55 < yoleaux> Adaptagrams: Tools for Adaptive Diagrams
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21:19 < fenn> amateur structured light 3d scanning is getting pretty high quality results with just regular cameras and projectors http://forum.david-3d.com/download/file.php?id=4730&mode=view
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21:59 < nmz787> it really upsets me that the 3d camera in my HTC M8 doesn't have a 3D scanning app... but you know, it has a useless focus-after-you-shoot picture editor thing
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23:04 < fenn> sounds like a light field camera, not a "3d camera" whatever taht is
23:06 < fenn> depth of field sensor and 2 cameras
23:06 < fenn> oh one of the cameras is the depth of field sensor
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--- Log closed Mon Feb 23 00:00:02 2015