--- Log opened Wed Mar 18 00:00:25 2015
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00:45 < genehacker> now this is interesting: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/324/5929/917
00:48 < fenn> .title
00:48 < yoleaux> Confining Light to Deep Subwavelength Dimensions to Enable Optical Nanopatterning
00:51 < genehacker> they made 30 nm features with 633 nm and 325 nm light
00:51 < fenn> "lines with an average width of 36 nanometers (nm), about one-tenth the illuminating wavelength λ1 = 325 nm, made by applying a film of thermally stable photochromic molecules above the photoresist. Simultaneous irradiation of a second wavelength, λ2 = 633 nm, renders the film opaque to the writing beam except at nodal sites, which let through a spatially constrained segment of incident λ1
00:51 < genehacker> the thing that interest me is that they used a photochromic  to do it
00:51 < fenn> light, allowing subdiffractional patterning."
00:53 < genehacker> now if I could just control photochromic molecules to within 36 nm
00:54 < fenn> paperbot: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/324/5929/917.full
00:55 < paperbot> http://libgen.info/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1126%2Fscience.1167704
00:55 < fenn> i guess libgen doesn't have new articles
00:57 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/irc/photochromic_subwavelength_optical_nanopatterning.pdf
00:57 < genehacker> of course it looks like the light has to be transmitted to be smaller than the diffraction limit
00:59 < fenn> this certainly seems a lot easier than all the triple-patterning nonsense
00:59 < fenn> it's similar to two-photon i guess
01:00 < fenn> not sure what you mean genehacker
01:01 < genehacker> the size of the feature on the photochromic material is larger than the size of the feature on the photoresist
01:01 < fenn> you should be able to do repeat exposures to make thicker lines?
01:03 < genehacker> well I'm hoping to use a technique like this to control the actuation of 6 tiny pillars of photoisomerizing material arranged to make a stewart platform
01:04 < fenn> the trick seems to be having one wavelength turn the photochromic layer on, and the other wavelength turns it off, so when you overlap them out of phase you get a tiny spot that is turned on
01:04 < genehacker> yeah and most photoisomers are like that
01:05 < fenn> you could just do a 16% duty cycle (turn one pillar on at a time)
01:05 < genehacker> well the hard part is hitting just one pillar
01:05 < fenn> so you're thinking of coating your pillars in a photochromic layer?
01:05 < genehacker> the pillars are photochromic
01:06 < fenn> ok now i'm lost
01:06 < genehacker> photochromic = photoisomerizing
01:06 < fenn> they change shape upon irradiation with light?
01:06 < genehacker> color change usually means shape change at the nanoscale
01:06 < genehacker> yes
01:06 < genehacker> that's what I work on
01:07 < fenn> how big is the whole platform?
01:07 < genehacker> ideally something that fits inside a 100 nm size cube
01:08 < fenn> also why not just do it electrically
01:08 < genehacker> find me an electric actuator that fits inside a 100 nm size cube
01:09 < genehacker> that can easily self assemble to make a stewart platform
01:09 < fenn> heh ok
01:09 < fenn> i was going to suggest PVDF
01:10 < genehacker> plus wiring such a structure might be difficult
01:10 < fenn> you want some kind of nanoparticle though? i guess you could make them stick together with DNA origami on the ends
01:10 < genehacker> PVDF is a big mess of spaghetti on the nanoscale
01:11 < fenn> sorry i have no idea.. it seems like there would be a lot of things that could do what you want
01:12 < genehacker> then why hasn't anyone won the feynman prize?
01:12 < fenn> because they haven't followed his instructions
01:13 < fenn> everyone wants to jump straight to the nanoscale with self-assembly
01:16 < fenn> .wik feynman prize
01:16 < yoleaux> "The Feynman Prize in Nanotechnology is an award given by the Foresight Institute every year for significant advancements in nanotechnology. It is named in honor of physicist Richard Feynman, whose 1959 talk There's Plenty of Room at the Bottom is considered to have inspired the beginning of the field of nanotechnology." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feynman_Prize
01:17 < genehacker> well I think I got a way to make a stewart platform with some nanolithography and a bit of self assembly
01:17 < genehacker> the problem I have is controlling such a thing
01:22 < fenn> yeah the time constants would be ridiculously fast, so no PWM and no "digital" light projection
01:23 < fenn> fortunately the power is also low
01:24 < genehacker> photoisomerizing molecules switch between two states
01:24 < genehacker> pwm isn't really necessary
01:24 < fenn> how long does it take them to decay back to the original state?
01:24 < genehacker> days
01:25 < genehacker> or much less than that if exposed to the appropriate wavelength
01:25 < fenn> ok so not nanoseconds
01:26 < genehacker> time to switch is very fast though
01:26 < genehacker> like picoseconds
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01:27 < fenn> a wild clone appeared!
01:27 < genehacker> had to terminate it
01:27 < fenn> they call him the dye-deoxy terminator
01:28  * fenn searches around for a pun trash can
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01:34 < fenn> welp this photochromic "absorbance modulation" technique looks pretty useful for DIY chip making
01:35 < genehacker> how so?
01:36 < fenn> well you can make 36nm lines with optical wavelengths...
01:36 < fenn> in a straightforward way
01:37 < genehacker> unfortunately you can only make 36 nm lines parallel to each other
01:37 < fenn> in one exposure
01:38 < genehacker> http://pubs.rsc.org/en/Content/ArticleLanding/2012/CS/c1cs15262a#!divAbstract
01:39 < fenn> .title
01:39 < yoleaux> Great expectations: can artificial molecular machines deliver on their promise? - Chemical Society Reviews (RSC Publishing)
01:39 < genehacker> http://www.physics.uoguelph.ca/~dutcher/download/nano_4100/cd/biological%20motors/Chemical%20Society%20Reviews%202011%20Coskun.pdf
01:39 < genehacker> it is worth a read
01:40  * fenn tosses it on the pile
01:41 < fenn> weird, grzybowski is one of the authors
01:42 < genehacker> ?
01:42 < fenn> he did a lot of work on analyzing chemical reaction networks to find novel synthesis and to automate the process of designing reactions
01:42 < genehacker> the self assembly guy?
01:43 < fenn> hell i dunno
01:43 < fenn> .wik grzybowski
01:43 < yoleaux> "Grzybowski (feminine Grzybowska, plural Grzybowscy) is a Polish surname. It may refer to:" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grzybowski
01:43 < genehacker> how long ago?
01:43 < fenn> .wik bartosz grzybowski
01:43 < yoleaux> "Chematica is a software/database that uses algorithms and a collective database of 250 years of organic chemical information to predict and provide synthesis pathways for molecules. The software development, lead by Bartosz A. Grzybowski, took place for a decade when it was finally publicized in August, 2012." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chematica
01:43 < genehacker> oh wow
01:44 < fenn> so a year after your review paper was published
01:45 < genehacker> damn how did I miss that
01:46 < fenn> haha "The program also notes regulated and unregulated compounds, and uses specialized algorithms that avoid these"
01:47 < genehacker> I should totally find a way to implement that for my work
01:48 < genehacker> after all that's just a smiles string comparison
01:49 < genehacker> now where's a list of regulated compounds?
01:52 < fenn> hum good luck guys, "You might well have terrorists trying to cook up a chemical weapon, but currently it is difficult to analyse what is suspicious chemical-buying behaviour because you don't know what new ways there might be of making dangerous things. Or a terrorist may try making, say, a nerve gas using a complex route to confuse the authorities. But, if the government – using Chematica –
01:52 < fenn> knows all pathways for making a nerve gas or another chemical weapon, it is more likely to be able to recognise dangerous behaviour."
01:53 < fenn> a 5 step synthesis has 10^19 possible reaction paths
01:53 < fenn> don't worry, the government will protect us!
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01:56 < jrayhawk> 3
01:56 < jrayhawk> whoops
02:02 < fenn> looks like it's impossible to actually download chematica, despite much trumpeting
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06:55 < kanzure> probably vaporware
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07:40 < fenn> presumably they're not releasing it because terrists
07:46 < kanzure> there are other retrosynthetic analysis tools methinks
07:46 < kanzure> i would ask my computational chemist preson but she keeps claiming she's not a chemist (i think something went wrong somewhere)
07:47 < kanzure> *person
07:47 < ParahSailin> "specialized algorithms" they probably did minimal CYA on this
08:06 < kanzure> why did people adopt the whitehat/blackhat terminology instead of claiming "ethical hacking" or something?
08:12 < kanzure> http://www.imcdb.org/i759546.jpg
08:13 < kanzure> http://www.starburstmagazine.com/images/120814/chappie-1.jpg
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09:00 < chris_99> nickjohnson, you're kickstarter is doing really well :)
09:00 < chris_99> *your
09:00 < nickjohnson> chris_99: Yup! Now I just need some press coverage :)
09:00 < chris_99> submit it to HaD?
09:01 < nickjohnson> I'm working on that
09:01 < nickjohnson> They resell a couple of my products and expressed some interest in "participating" in the KS
09:01 < nickjohnson> But I haven't heard back
09:02 < nickjohnson> And in the meantime my friends who are HaD editors are reluctant to write it up
09:02 < chris_99> ah
09:04 < nickjohnson> I'm confident it will end up there sooner or later during the KS
09:04 < nickjohnson> But it's a bit frustrating watching the incoming pledges slow down while I just cross my fingers and wait
09:04 < chris_99> cool, also possibly submit to hackernews
09:04 < nickjohnson> Oh, duh, good point :)
09:05 < chris_99> tell us when its on, and ill upvote it
09:06 < nickjohnson> Thanks
09:06 < nickjohnson> But we're past 50% in 36 hours, so I can't really complain :)
09:07 < chris_99> i was reading the /r/electronics thing a bit too, i don't think some of the people really get how it works heh
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09:09 < nickjohnson> Heh, yes
09:09 < nickjohnson> The comments on that were hilarious
09:09 < nickjohnson> A few sensible ones though
09:10 < chris_99> yeah
09:10 < nickjohnson> The comments on the amateurradio reddit were even funnier in a way
09:10 < chris_99> oh not seen those
09:15 < nickjohnson> www.reddit.com/r/amateurradio/comments/2z9zi9/kickstarter_arduino_signal_generator/
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09:42 < nickjohnson> Upvotes greatly appreciated: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9226763
09:43 < kanzure> hacker news will eventually discount those upvotes ecause they all come from a irect link
09:43 < kanzure> *direct link
09:43 < kanzure> *because
09:43 < nickjohnson> hm
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09:43 < nickjohnson> Feel free to go to the front page, then :)
09:43 < kanzure> sort of an anti-spam mechanism
09:44 < nickjohnson> *nods*
09:48 < nickjohnson> kanzure: Actually, now it seems to have vanished off the frontpage entirely :/
09:49 < nickjohnson> Oh, it's on newest, though
09:50 < kanzure> nickjohnson: http://silverman.svbtle.com/the-best-time-to-post-on-hacker-news
09:50 < nickjohnson> kanzure: heh, ah well
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10:46 < nickjohnson> Damn, I think I missed the frontpage for sure.
10:50 < chris_99> thats weird its not on the frontpage, considering it has quite a few votes
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13:03 < archels> nickjohnson: what was your motivation for not making it an Arduino module?
13:03 < archels> seems that's a stumbling block for some of these reddit commentators
13:06 < nickjohnson> archels: I wanted it to have a particularly accurate crystal, so I picked a TCXO, and then it seemed a waste not to use that to clock the AVR, too, which allows you to do other nice things, like accurately timed delays, cycle-perfect waveform generation, etc.
13:06 < nickjohnson> And it really costs very little extra to add an AVR to the board compared to making it an Arduino shield.
13:06 < nickjohnson> Also, the built in functionality uses so many pins that in practice you'd be dedicating an Arduino to it anyway
13:07 < archels> hmm, shield with dedicated AVR? :)
13:08 < nickjohnson> In which case, what's gained by making it a shield?
13:08 < archels> anyway, pleasing the internet. good luck with that
13:08 < nickjohnson> heh, indeed
13:08 < archels> (if it doesn't involve pictures of cats, anyway)
13:08 < nickjohnson> Even then, there are people who like dogs better
13:09 < archels> I'm actually looking for a signal generator, this would be perfect if it had a UI (software or hardware)
13:12 < nickjohnson> Update two! https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/nickjohnson/tsunami/posts/1170174
13:12 < nickjohnson> archels: There's I2C and UART pins exposed on the Tsunami PCB, as well as mounting holes
13:12 < nickjohnson> Someone in another channel has already expressed interest in building an addon board that has a display and encoder to give it a physical UI
13:12 < nickjohnson> If they don't, I probably will. :)
13:13 < nickjohnson> If I get time, I'll order an I2C display and put up a quick demo of how it works in an update, too
13:15 < archels> cool
13:16 < nickjohnson> This for instance: http://proto-pic.co.uk/serial-enabled-lcd-kit/
13:17 < nickjohnson> Oh bah, I thought it had inputs
13:30 < nickjohnson> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/8-7-Segment-LED-Plus-8-led-8-button-TM1638-Key-Display-for-Arduino-UK-stock-/121588435675?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1c4f3c4adb <- this'll do for the demo :)
13:34 < chris_99> alternatively http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Russian-Ex-Military-Modular-IN-14-Nixie-Tube-6-Digit-Display-with-Serial-Drivers-/221712691498?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item339f1b312a
13:44 < kanzure> archels: what sort of signal generator are you looking for?
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13:47 < archels> something like this http://www.newark.com/productimages/large/en_US/4136139.jpg
13:48 < archels> budget ~€200
13:48 < Daeken> kanzure: is the plan for the dna synthesizer to use different depths for channels and chambers (as in the paper where a similar design was built), or a uniform depth?
13:48 < nmz787_i> hi Daeken
13:48 < Daeken> hola
13:48 < nmz787_i> solid supports are so last millenium
13:49 < nmz787_i> also I have access to a FIB for mask exposure (PMMA gives good resolution)
13:49 < Daeken> oh nice
13:51 < nmz787_i> also unless you can do anisotropic etch, su-8 might give higher aspect ratio
13:51 < Daeken> i've been just planning on using a UV light to expose the resist.  but my issue is the actual etching ... if SU-8 is used, there's no etching, and it's trivial to use that as your negative for PDMS pouring.  but if we need multiple depths, we need to use a KOH etch, which means we need to lay down a nitride layer and all that
13:52 < Daeken> su-8 would be optimal, but it really requires a single uniform depth across all features
13:52 < nmz787_i> depth can vary with spin coater settings
13:52 < Daeken> but once you've laid down a layer of su-8 and developed it, you can't just add more to it, can you?
13:53 < nmz787_i> best idea I've surmised is to use a microscope stage with a grid reticle in the field-of-view, use that to calibrate for linearity of travel (or real time feedback and computer vision), along with a blu-ray laser largely unmodified (other than controlling electronics, maybe removing the tracking focus beam splitter) off to the side at some offset
13:53 < ParahSailin> you cant really, because you will not be able to spincoat uniform layer on top of something patterned
13:54 < nmz787_i> that way you get a very-close-to-TEM00 and also a almost diffraction limited spot
13:54 < kanzure> archels: http://www.dwyer-inst.com/Product/TestEquipment/SignalGenerators-Multimeters/ModelASG/Ordering?gclid=COy6sZ_kssQCFYOSfgodqW4AkA
13:54 < nmz787_i> ParahSailin: wouldn't the wafer be flat to begin?
13:54 < nmz787_i> i guess I'm missing something if we're not talking about starting with a flat
13:55 < ParahSailin> [23:52:46] <Daeken> but once you've laid down a layer of su-8 and developed it, you can't just add more to it, can you?
13:55 < nmz787_i> ah
13:55 < nmz787_i> you'd need to fill in the voids somehow... idk if you could assure planarity easily after that
13:56 < nmz787_i> without something like an ion beam curtain to 'belt sand' the surface
13:56 < ParahSailin> i had an idea a long time ago to neutralize voids in su-8
13:56 < kanzure> archels: nevermind
13:57 < ParahSailin> like using a base to neutralize the photoacid, and not do the develop step before spincoating new layer on
13:57 < nmz787_i> fenn: the lightcrafter thing is just a DLP chip with fast RAM nearby to load patterns quickly... no different at the MEMS level I believe from any other DLP chip in a projector
13:58 < nmz787_i> photobase
13:58 < nmz787_i> :)
13:58 < nmz787_i> idk if that exists
13:58 < nmz787_i> Daeken: are you in Portland OR by chance?
13:58 < Daeken> the only way i can think to do multiple depths is to do KOH etching instead of building up SU-8
13:58 < nmz787_i> I have access to a lab with all the goodies
13:58 < Daeken> nmz787_i: no, i'm in GA
13:58 < nmz787_i> ah
13:59 < ParahSailin> yeah koh is a better idea
13:59 < kanzure> archels: http://www.amazon.com/JYETech-08503-Portable-Generator-Controller/dp/B008V5ACWW
13:59 < nmz787_i> also vacuum bearings are like $10 for something like a spincoater
13:59 < ParahSailin> organics suck for reusable stuff
13:59 < Daeken> i have access to a biology lab, so i can safely handle various materials, but i don't have most basic equipment used for this sort of thing
13:59 < Daeken> nmz787_i: no need for a vacuum spincoater -- wafers are small enough to just use double-sided sticky tape
13:59 < nmz787_i> yeah but then you might break your chip or something pulling it off, leave adhesive residue
14:00 < Daeken> so a nice brushless motor and ESC from a quadcopter will do
14:00 < Daeken> nmz787_i: i'm not too worried about that -- the wafers are only a few $ a piece, and the adhesive will only be on the back
14:00 < nmz787_i> i take it you've seen the CD-R spindle spincoater on ebay
14:00 < nmz787_i> eh, small wafers are the most expensive kind these days
14:00 < Daeken> nmz787_i: yeah, this is even cheaper
14:01 < Daeken> nmz787_i: $6.90 a piece, if i buy 25 at a time, for 50.8mm wafers
14:01 < archels> kanzure: hm. The reason I'm willing to shell out so much money for this is that it buys me time
14:01 < archels> kanzure: i.e. don't want this to turn into a project =)
14:01 < nmz787_i> are they clean though, or patterned already?
14:01 < nmz787_i> you might need to ash them first
14:01 < nmz787_i> archels: if you don't need it for too long, rent one
14:01 < Daeken> they should be clean enough for our purposes.  may need some processing, but nothing big
14:02 < Daeken> the thing i'm learning more and more with this is: this stuff is huge compared to normal micromanufacturing, so we can cheat ... a lot haha
14:02 < nmz787_i> eh, the large stuff has limited use
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14:03 < Daeken> nmz787_i: how so?
14:03 < nmz787_i> you can't do cell sorting with 100 micron features
14:03 < nmz787_i> well maybe sorting is possible
14:03 < nmz787_i> but not for single-cell things
14:03 < Daeken> everything with this should be 5 micron resolution
14:03 < nmz787_i> clone separation, filtration
14:03 < ParahSailin> ah you are on cell sorting now?
14:03 < ParahSailin> lot more interesting than the dna synthesis
14:04 < nmz787_i> nah just a common use case that most of the 'cheating' microfab can't even get close to
14:04 < drazak> kanzure: am I crazy or did some guy going by genewitch hang out in here for awhle?
14:04 < kanzure> genehacker
14:04 < drazak> ah ok
14:04 < kanzure> so yes you are fucking crazy
14:04 < nmz787_i> the earl of sandwich
14:04 < drazak> that's cool
14:04 < drazak> nothing new
14:04 < Daeken> nmz787_i: at 5um, pretty much everything microfluidics-wise is possible, as far as i can tell
14:05 < nmz787_i> yep, until you get interested in nanofluidics because micro is so exciting!
14:05 < Daeken> and we can get away without having a perfect process, simply because 5um is pretty damn huge for standard micromanufacturing
14:05 < Daeken> haha
14:05 < Daeken> i'm really curious to throw this stuff into an SEM and actually measure it, though.  i'm wondering how much of the theory is going to translate to practice directly.
14:05 < drazak> kanzure: what've you been up to?
14:06 < nmz787_i> does your lab have an SEM?
14:06 < nmz787_i> if not, I could do imaging
14:07 < Daeken> nmz787_i: i don't have a lab, but a good friend of mine (who's super interested in helping wit hthis) does have access to one in hers :)
14:07 < Daeken> she's offered to help out with whatever i need
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14:11 < Daeken> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1w4FQyMu8imjmzbpcQDZjZUyKbUah7CHf2EJLRkEOUT4/edit?usp=sharing initial spreadsheet of costs, btw.  rough numbers so far, just mainly trying to figure out where things are going to come from, and making sure that everything is accounted for.
14:11 < drazak> kanzure: I guess my friend's boyfriend is working on a liquid aluminium 3d printer
14:11 < kanzure> drazak: do you mean juri_ ?
14:11 < Daeken> also writing it with the assumption that the person building it has basically no access to any equipment, hence why stuff like a hot plate is on there, even if most labs will have one.
14:11 < ParahSailin> has someone made a low temp eutectic 3d printer?
14:11 < drazak> kanzure: I hope not
14:11 < kanzure> juri_: ping
14:12 < kanzure> juri_: stop messing with php healthcare stuff and talk about something important for a sec, we're stalking people or something
14:12 < drazak> I don't think so
14:12 < drazak> is juri_ a buffalo native?
14:12 < ParahSailin> paperbot: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?doid=2258996.2259008
14:12 < kanzure> no idea
14:12 < drazak> ex-canadian
14:12 < paperbot> http://libgen.info/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1145%2F2258996.2259008
14:13 < nmz787_i> Daeken: degassing chamber is a bit expensive, you don't think? this can just be a metal canister, or a piece of PVC pipe and some rubber and plywood
14:13 < Daeken> nmz787_i: that's the chamber and pump
14:13 < nmz787_i> .g black box labs plasma microwave
14:13 < yoleaux> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-R0_nXpc7I
14:13 < nmz787_i> .title
14:13 < yoleaux> Homemade Oxygen Plasma Etcher & PDMS to Glass Bonding Test - Black Box Labs - YouTube
14:14 < drazak> kanzure: what've you been doing anyway? still working on that markup language?
14:14 < nmz787_i> I guess I am skewed since I got a nice vac pump from craigslist for cheap
14:14 < Daeken> nmz787_i: oh yeah, you can do this much cheaper getting used stuff
14:14 < Daeken> but that's hit or miss.  i'm going to have a complete list of "go here and buy these things, and you can do this" ... if people want to swap in used parts instead, that's cool
14:14 < Daeken> but i want a baseline that Just Works (TM)
14:15 < nmz787_i> Daeken: also i'd look into a reflow hotplate, rather than something with just a knob
14:15 < kanzure> drazak: bitcoin
14:15 < nmz787_i> or at least something with a digital readout
14:15 < drazak> kanzure: oh yeah bitcoin is cool now I guess
14:15 < Daeken> nmz787_i: hm, good idea.
14:15 < Daeken> i'll hunt around for something cheap
14:15 < drazak> wish I got in on that shit in 2011 when diablod3 wouldn't stop talking about it
14:17 < nmz787_i> Daeken: something like this http://www.instructables.com/id/Closing-the-Loop-on-Surface-Mount-Soldering/
14:21 < kanzure> drazak: link to aluminum extruder please
14:22 < drazak> kanzure: its not open source
14:22 < drazak> sorry :(
14:23 < nmz787_i> there's the printer that uses jewelers metal
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14:28 < juri_> kanzure: pong.
14:28 < juri_> SEM?
14:28 < juri_> aluminium printing?
14:29 < juri_> not open source?
14:29 < juri_> DIAF.
14:29 < juri_> with your family. and pets. and family's pets.
14:33 < juri_> er. um. i mean, "hi.". ;)
14:34 < kanzure> had he said it was not open source, i would not have guessed your name
14:34 < kanzure> i apologize
14:34 < juri_> not necessary. and, i'm based in DC. and female. ;P
14:35 < kanzure> well maybe you had another person on the project or something
14:35 < kanzure> and maybe this other person also isn't female
14:35 < kanzure> as for location, i can't explain that
14:43 < kanzure> 14:16 <+sbp> huh, 99% of the energy from a supernova comes out as neutrinos
14:43 < kanzure> 14:16 <+kanzure> astrophysicists call this star fart
14:43 < kanzure> 14:16 <+grrl> no, they don't.
14:43 < kanzure> 14:16 <+kanzure> yes they are.
14:43 < drazak> juri_: sorry!
14:43 < kanzure> no that was my fault
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14:45 < juri_> its ok. i'm not actually that mean, i just like to make my open source only principals clear. ;)
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14:46 < juri_> I'm reconditioning an SEM, and setting up for diamond like carbon deposition. and building an 8'x4'x2.5' printer.
14:48 < drazak> juri_: yeah I know what this community is like :)_
14:48 < drazak> I used to hang out here a lot and had a ton of diybio posts and shit before I got old and crusty
14:49 < drazak> man that was a long time ago
14:52 < nmz787_i> I shall soon have room for an SEM!
14:52 < juri_> in four years, it will be time to shoot this engineer. ;)
15:02 < maaku> juri_: diamond-like carbon deposition? what process?
15:02 < drazak> juri_: apparently they're having a problem with the nozzle not lasting long enough, heh
15:02 < drazak> is your aluminum extruder open source?
15:04 -!- nmz787_i [~ntmccork@134.134.139.77] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:04 < juri_> indeed.
15:04 < juri_> it's on my wiki.
15:05 < drazak> ship the link :)
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15:05 < juri_> and, as they are closed source, they get no hints from me. ;)
15:06 < drazak> that actually seems quite contrary to open source dogma
15:06 < juri_> I don't have to consult for free. ;P
15:06 < juri_> http://fosscar.faikvm.com/trac/wiki/HotEnd
15:06 < drazak> nobody is asking you to consult haha
15:09 < drazak> juri_: interesting anyway
15:09 < drazak> I have no idea what their nozzle design is
15:10 < juri_> I know what my plans are.. but i'm still working on them.
15:10 < juri_> I'll get it right.
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15:26 < Daeken> ParahSailin: do you know how silicon nitride is added to a wafer, for use as a hard mask?  is it via a chemical reaction with the wafer, or is it added as a film/coating?
15:27 < Daeken> i'm having a hard time actually figuring out how people do it
15:31 < Daeken> i wish you could directly etch with KOH, with some resistant photoresist, but i can't find anything that will work
15:31 < nmz787_i> Daeken: CVD
15:32 < Daeken> nmz787_i: that ... seems a bit complex
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15:42 < Daeken> is there anything that can be used for direct silicon etching while masking with photoresist?  HNA, KOH, TMAH, etc all seem to require a hard mask.
15:47 < Daeken> http://iopscience.iop.org/0960-1317/16/2/012 holy shit.
15:47 < paperbot> http://libgen.info/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1088%2F0960-1317%2F16%2F2%2F012
15:47 < Daeken> we don't need to do wafer etching at all
15:47 < Daeken> we -can- do multiple layers of su-8
15:49 < Daeken> that'll give us ridiculous precision.  score.
15:50 < kanzure> .title http://iopscience.iop.org/0960-1317/16/2/012
15:50 < yoleaux> Fabrication of multi-layer SU-8 microstructures - Abstract - Journal of Micromechanics and Microengineering - IOPscience
15:51 < Daeken> if anyone has access to grab that paper, it'd be a big help.  i'm pretty sure i get the concept, but the particulars matter
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15:52 < kanzure> paperbot: http://iopscience.iop.org/0960-1317/16/2/012/pdf/0960-1317_16_2_012.pdf
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15:53 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/ae5186c2b554ac1925bfe7aff0f4b0b.pdf
15:53 < nmz787_i> "First, layers of thin (SU-8 2010) and thick (SU-8 2100) SU-8 photoresists of different thicknesses were coated, patterned and examined to verify the manufacturer’s (MicroChem Corp.) recommended protocols. Next, alternating layers of SU-8 2010 and SU-8 2100 were spin coated, followed by soft-bake, UVexposure and post-exposure bake steps. Finally, the multiple SU-8 layers were developed simultaneously. This multi-level process was re
15:53 < Daeken> i <3 paperbot
15:54 < Daeken> man, that's so cool.  so we'll be able to do any number of depths we need, just develop at the end :)
15:54 < Daeken> that simplifies things a tremendous amount.
15:55 < nmz787_i> "Despite its popularity, SU-8 photoresists pose multiple processing challenges that hinder reproducibility and limit potential applications [5, 10, 11]. Differences in exposure (exposure non-uniformities) throughout the photoresist layer can lead to partial cross-linking (curing) of the resist, residual stress build-up and poor adhesion to the underlying silicon wafer, which can subsequently result in feature degradation, crack-like d
15:55 < Daeken> nmz787_i: yeah, there are ... a lot of problems with su-8, to put it mildly
15:55 < Daeken> but it's damn simple, so i'm hopeful.
15:56 < nmz787_i> fig 6 B is interesting
15:56 < Daeken> i doubt we'll get more than 2-3 uses out of a given master, using su-8.
15:56 < nmz787_i> i have everything needed I think except for fresh SU-8
15:56 < nmz787_i> but ssu-8 as compatibiity problems when used directly
15:56 < nmz787_i> at least for chemistry
15:57 < nmz787_i> can't remember about biocompatibility
15:57 < Daeken> how do you mean?
15:58 < Daeken> figure 8 is ... damn impressive, honestly.  i can't believe how good that looks.
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16:00 < nmz787_i>  fig 8 isn't terribly interesting though
16:01 < Daeken> given the actual use of the multi-level technique, it's pretty much a perfect fit for what we're doing
16:01 < nmz787_i> too bad they didn't section the resist afterwards to show cross-sections
16:01 < Daeken> we have one thin layer for reaction chambers, and one thick layer for channels
16:02 < nmz787_i> again, what about chemistry
16:02 < Daeken> what about it?  we're just pouring PDMS on this
16:02 < nmz787_i> how will you do that for the inner layers?
16:02 < Daeken> shouldn't have any adverse reaction -- SU-8 and PDMS is super common
16:02 < Daeken> there are no inner layers
16:02 < nmz787_i> (4:01:24 PM) Daeken: we have one thin layer for reaction chambers, and one thick layer for channels
16:03 < Daeken> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/synthesis/Synthesis%20-%20Microfluidic%20PicoArray%20synthesis%20of%20oligodeoxynucleotides%20and%20simultaneous%20assembling%20of%20multiple%20DNA%20sequences%20(10%20kb).pdf check out figure 1A
16:03 < Daeken> i'm using that as the rough mental model of the mask
16:03 < Daeken> the reaction chambers there are 15um deep, and the channels are 150um deep
16:04 < nmz787_i> that looks like a single layer with a hole punch and cover slip
16:04 < Daeken> so in our case, we'll have two layers (going by their numbers -- ours will be different): 15um for the chamber mask, and 150um for the channel mask
16:04 < nmz787_i> why not just adjust the exposure time?
16:04 < nmz787_i> greyscale it
16:04 < Daeken> have a paper on adjusting exposure time to achieve different thicknesses of su-8?
16:05 < Daeken> haven't read anything on that.
16:05 < nmz787_i> there's likely a few on diyhpl.us
16:05 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/
16:05 < nmz787_i> just google greyscale mems
16:05 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/SU-8/
16:06 < Daeken> cool, thanks
16:06 < nmz787_i> greyscale mems site:diyhpl.us
16:06 < nmz787_i> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/optics/photolithography/Gray-scale%20photolithography%20using%20microfluidic%20photomasks.pdf
16:06 < nmz787_i> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/optics/photolithography/Low-cost%20maskless%20grayscale%20lithography%20using%20a%20new%20photo-definable%20polyimide%20for%20polymer%20MEMS%20applications.pdf
16:07 < Daeken> huh, that's quite neat.
16:08 < Daeken> wonder how the result compares to a multi-layer structure
16:09 < Daeken> nice thing about this is that it allows for a single mask to be used, and fewer total steps.  definitely worth trying out
16:09 < Daeken> cheers.
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16:55 < Daeken> think i'm going to order some supplies and make up test photomasks, and see what comes out of it.  refine the process a bit
16:55 < Daeken> should be interesting to see
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20:20 < kanzure> astrophysics source code http://ascl.net/
20:21 < kanzure> http://ascl.net/code/v/1080 "A python package built to simplify common tasks that are often done with stellar model grids, such as simulating synthetic stellar populations, plotting evolution tracks or isochrones, or estimating the physical properties of a star given photometric and/or spectroscopic observations."
20:21 < kanzure> "The python scripts are completely automatic and can be used to rapidly classify galaxy cluster morphology for large numbers of clusters without human intervention."
20:22 < kanzure> http://ascl.net/1502.004 "ADAM (All-Data Asteroid Modeling) models asteroid shape reconstruction from observations. Developed in MATLAB with core routines in C, its features include general nonconvex and non-starlike parametric 3D shape supports and reconstruction of asteroid shape from any combination of lightcurves, adaptive optics images, HST/FGS data, disk-resolved thermal images, interferometry, and range-Doppler radar images. ADAM ...
20:22 < kanzure> ... does not require boundary contour extraction for reconstruction and can be run in parallel."
20:23 < kanzure> http://ascl.net/1007.006 "AMIGA is a publicly available adaptive mesh refinement code for (dissipationless) cosmological simulations. It combines an N-body code with an Eulerian grid-based solver for the full set of magnetohydrodynamics (MHD) equations in order to conduct simulations of dark matter, baryons and magnetic fields in a self-consistent way in a fully cosmological setting. Our numerical scheme includes effective methods to ...
20:23 < kanzure> ... ensure proper capturing of shocks and highly supersonic flows and a divergence-free magnetic field. The high accuracy of the code is demonstrated by a number of numerical tests."
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21:28 < Daeken> kanzure: are there any plans for the mask designs of the synthesizer?
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