--- Log opened Wed Apr 08 00:00:46 2015
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03:58 < kanzure> hmm i think i do pretty okay with 5h 30m of sleep
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04:11 < kanzure> "Cthulhu's anatomy is described as part man, part dragon, and part octopus."
04:38 < chris_99> paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003267007002747
04:38 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/%0A%20Effect%20of%20temperature%20variation%20on%20the%20visible%20and%20near%20infrared%20spectra%20of%20wine%20and%20the%20consequences%20on%20the%20partial%20least%20square%20calibrations%20developed%20to%20measure%20chemical%20composition%0A%20.pdf
04:39 < chris_99> hmm that's a html file
04:39 < chris_99> actually
04:44 < archels> kanzure: how consistent is your timing?
04:45 < archels> I think my downfall is usually waking up in the wrong part of a sleep cycle
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06:05 < JayDugger> Influx wasn't all that good, but it did have shiny places.
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06:15 < kanzure> archels: not consistent. sometimes i take 6, sometimes 8.
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07:46 < poppingtonic> paperbot: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF01389186
07:46 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/36da754a19966c0312b200eb157e77c5.txt
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11:49 < chris_99> nmz787, are you about per chance, i just got a quote for http://njlzbx.en.alibaba.com/product/60190942033-800530746/High_diffraction_flat_filed_concave_blazed_grating.html
11:49 < chris_99> they quoted 1-5pcs             $520/pc
11:49 < chris_99> are they on crack?!
11:55 < nmz787_i> hi
11:56 < chris_99> hey, that seems stupidly expensive right?
11:56 < nmz787_i> not really... for China, it seems a bit higher... but Richardson Gratings (the company serving the FAQs/technical notes I was sending) is at least $750-$1000
11:57 < chris_99> i thought yours was $100
11:57 < chris_99> though
11:57 < nmz787_i> I think they wanted around $150
11:57 < nmz787_i> did you ever email him?
11:57 < chris_99> nah, i'll do that
11:57 < nmz787_i> I think the emails I sent had two email addresses in there
11:58 < chris_99> is From: W michael <michaelaopuc@yahoo.com.cn> the one?
11:58 < nmz787_i> chris_99: really though, I'd recommend getting things setup with a cheap $5 grating then upgrading when you find it isn't good enough
11:58 < nmz787_i> yeah that was one
11:58 < nmz787_i> there was another I think too, more machine-generated looking
11:59 < chris_99> ah yeah i think i see it, yeah i'll definitely start with a cheapo one
11:59 < chris_99> it looks like i probably need around 500 lines/mmm
11:59 < chris_99> to let through the 900nm
11:59 < nmz787_i> I guess the other to try might be: leewenho@163.com
12:00 < kanzure> we should really pipe alibaba chat feeds into this channel
12:00 < kanzure> i'm sure we can get lots of eager suppliers that want to send samples.. and stuff..
12:01 < nmz787_i> we definitely need a chinese regular in here
12:01 < nmz787_i> there are a lot of open source projects that I'd like to see them clone and make cheaper
12:02 < chris_99> mmm
12:02 < chris_99> that'd be awesome
12:03 < CaptHindsight> nmz787: I've been trying
12:03 < chris_99> ok the first email failed btw
12:04 < CaptHindsight> nmz787: have an ordered list of what you'd like to see?
12:05 < CaptHindsight> nmz787_i: ^^
12:09 < CaptHindsight> http://www.alibaba.com/products/F0/diffraction_grating/CID1537.html
12:10 < chris_99> yeah i used alibaba, and theres only 2 companies there that seem to sell concave diffraction gratins
12:10 < chris_99> *gratings
12:11 < CaptHindsight> do you require concave and what wavelengths?
12:12 < chris_99> 900nm is the main peak i need to find
12:13 < nmz787_i> CaptHindsight: not sure what you're asking
12:13 < CaptHindsight> nmz787_i> there are a lot of open source projects that I'd like to see them clone and make cheaper
12:13 < nmz787_i> ah
12:13 < nmz787_i> yeah
12:13 < nmz787_i> not really a list
12:14 < CaptHindsight> I have a factory 1 hour south of Nanjing
12:14 < kanzure> spill the beans
12:14 < CaptHindsight> but still in Nanjing
12:15 < chris_99> oh nmz787_i i don't spose you know the diameter of fiber your spectrometer uses btw? they seem to mention 200um in another section of the site though
12:16 < CaptHindsight> chris_99: that supplier is in Nanjing
12:17 < chris_99> yeah they're the one that quoted me $500
12:18 < CaptHindsight> chris_99: what are you using for the sensor?
12:20 < chris_99> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-5pcs-TCD1304AP-TCD1304-CDIP22-Best-quality/1887814216.html
12:22 < CaptHindsight> you could use a DVD for the grating
12:25 < nmz787_i> chris_99: not too sure, I know that often fiber-coupled spectrometers say that the fiber will act as a sort-of slit (but I think this depends on it being a single-mode fiber, not a multi-mode)
12:25 < nmz787_i> so ideally you want a real slit anyway, I think
12:25 < nmz787_i> CaptHindsight: openBCI was the most recent example
12:25 < chris_99> aha
12:26 < nmz787_i> CaptHindsight: I got a quote on USA-based assembly at about $15 per PCB not including parts (or the actual PCB i think) starting volume of 100 boards
12:26 < nmz787_i> CaptHindsight: other interesting projects that need more work is eeg64
12:27 < CaptHindsight> http://www.openbci.com/
12:27 < nmz787_i> yep
12:27 < CaptHindsight> http://www.eeg64.com/
12:27 < nmz787_i> it's much further along than eeg64
12:27 < nmz787_i> though I haven't actually tested either
12:29 < CaptHindsight> those are easy
12:29 < CaptHindsight> was expecting a DNA sequencer
12:30 < CaptHindsight> or micron resolution MRI
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12:43 < CaptHindsight> https://openbci.myshopify.com/collections/frontpage/products/openbci-8-bit-board-kit  $500?
12:43 < chris_99> that's really expensive
12:44 < chris_99> considering the chip is like £20 i thought
12:45 < nmz787_i> it's an AVR
12:45 < CaptHindsight> they have firmware and a GUI
12:45 < nmz787_i> so it would be about $30 assembled with PCB and parts
12:45 < nmz787_i> watch out with GUI comments in here!
12:45 < chris_99> i mean the ADC nmz787
12:45 < nmz787_i> ah, maybe so
12:46 < nmz787_i> I didn't actually compute a BOM cost
12:46 < nmz787_i> so maybe $50 then assembled and all
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12:46 < chris_99> actually looks like the adc is $40-$50
12:47 < CaptHindsight> 24b 16khz adc
12:48 < CaptHindsight> 8 channel
12:48 < nmz787_i> they quote their noise specs at 70Hz tho
12:48 < nmz787_i> which is reasonable I guess
12:48 < nmz787_i> higher pink noise in the lower freqs
12:59 < CaptHindsight> whats the highest frequency that needs to be captured by an EEG?
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13:00 < CaptHindsight> 8khz sampling devices are <$10
13:01 < CaptHindsight> 16khz are 2x
13:01 < CaptHindsight> for 8 channels and 24b
13:07 < nmz787_i> personally I've never seen anything with high sampling rates, even though I would think that type of experiment would be required for negative hypothesis testing (i.e. that all brain signals are low-freq)
13:08 < nmz787_i> so I think sub 1000Hz or maybe even sub-100Hz is pretty common
13:08 < CaptHindsight> http://support.neurosky.com/kb/science/eeg-band-frequencies
13:08 < CaptHindsight> 50hz max on their charts
13:08 < nmz787_i> but you reduce noise with higher freqs and stuff like choppers... but I don't know if they're chopping their signal to do that or not
13:08 < nmz787_i> they could have just said "this part says it's the lowest noise available, let's get it"
13:09 < CaptHindsight> I just saw the 18khz sample rate and wondered why
13:09 < CaptHindsight> yeah, might be
13:09 < nmz787_i> CaptHindsight: know anyone at Rigol that would want to arrange a bunch of GHz o-scopes as an EEG headset, then donate all those scopes to hacker/makersspaces after the experimental results were obtained?
13:10 < nmz787_i> (my basic philosophy for a few years has been if a cell-phone/radio chip is so tiny, what reason couldn't neurons accomplish the same)
13:10 < nmz787_i> but no one really seems to have done an exhaustive search over the freq-space
13:11 < CaptHindsight> I'll look it all over soon
13:12 < nmz787_i> it seems very reasonable that with enough sampling and sensors, you could get some sort of tomography accomplished
13:12 < CaptHindsight> multichannel low frequency logger/analyzer
13:12 < nmz787_i> even if all the neurons individually are slow, there might be constructive/destructive interference occuring and pushing things into harmonics... so I think a lot hasn't been looked at
13:13 < CaptHindsight> you really just want the data, the GUI can be a laptop, tablet, phone whatever
13:13 < nmz787_i> yeah
13:13 < nmz787_i> exactly
13:13 < nmz787_i> APIs are pretty key I'm learning
13:14 < CaptHindsight> http://www.cnx-software.com/2015/04/06/jye-tech-dso138-is-a-23-diy-oscilloscope-kit/
13:14 < CaptHindsight> not 24b but the rest is there
13:15 < nmz787_i> even Rigol scopes are 8-bit
13:15 < nmz787_i> a search experiment would not need 24bit though
13:16 < CaptHindsight> lots of 32b arm cortex code for signal processing
13:16 < CaptHindsight> and stm32c are a few $
13:16 < nmz787_i> even some cheap FPGAs now too
13:17 < nmz787_i> the ICE40 for example
13:20 < CaptHindsight> 16 channel of 12b ADC  ~$1  http://www.st.com/web/catalog/mmc/FM141/SC1169/SS1574/LN1826/PF258964#
13:20 < chris_99> isn't that just a single adc really
13:20 < nmz787_i> 24b is a lot more sensitive though still
13:20 < nmz787_i> well even the 8 channel originally linked to likely is
13:21 < nmz787_i> just the muxers are all real nice
13:21 < chris_99> ah you mean even the Ti one will use muxing?
13:21 < nmz787_i> yeah most likely
13:21 < chris_99> aha
13:21 < nmz787_i> they'd call them analog switches or somethig
13:22 < CaptHindsight> looks like the TI device has 8 ADC's
13:22 < chris_99> oh
13:22 < CaptHindsight> http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/ads1299.pdf
13:22 < CaptHindsight> might be overkill
13:22 < CaptHindsight> <100Hz at 12b should be fine
13:25 < nmz787_i> for tomography you'd need all the resolution you can get
13:25 < nmz787_i> all the prior eeg headsets fail because they lack resolution in the data and number of detection sites
13:26 < CaptHindsight> I don't see the schematics
13:26 < CaptHindsight> and I didn't notice any analog filtering on the pcb
13:26 < nmz787_i> https://github.com/OpenBCI/Docs/blob/master/hardware/01-OpenBCI_Hardware.md
13:26 < nmz787_i> http://ultracortex.com/downloads/hardware/OpenBCI_8bit.zip
13:26 < nmz787_i> from the five seconds I looked at the TI part, it seemed all inclusive
13:27 < nmz787_i> 92% reduction in components it said
13:27 < CaptHindsight> do you put the subjects into a Faraday cage?
13:29 < CaptHindsight> the analog front end in the ADS1299 is nice
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13:43 < nmz787_i> CaptHindsight: guess it depends on the application of use... for experiments that sounds like a good idea... for end-users sitting on the couch wanting to type, probably not
13:47 < archels> nmz787_i: for my understanding, do you want to do better EEG tomography or do you intend to pick up electromagnetic fields emitted by neurons?
13:56 < nmz787_i> isn't that the same thing?
13:58 < archels> well, with EEG you assume that the magnetic component is negligible, and you just measure the static E-field
13:58 < archels> static in the sense of Maxwell's equations
13:58 < archels> in the latter case you'd use antennas
14:00 < chris_99> sorry for being dumb, but isn't the eeg electrode like an antenna
14:00 < nmz787_i> archels: isn't the difference just the freqs measured then?
14:01 < archels> chris_99: no, it doesn't couple electromagnetic energy, it's just a conductor
14:01 < nmz787_i> archels: if so, that's what I was saying earlier, that I haven't seen any experiments where they did the same test at DC or low-freq, all the way up to RF
14:02 < nmz787_i> wouldn't you just add a capacitor in the wire to get the non-DC components though?
14:02 < nmz787_i> you wouldn't need to be physically disconnected
14:02 < nmz787_i> I don't think
14:02 < archels> it's not DC in terms of a non-varying signal, it's static in that the magnetic and electric fields are uncoupled
14:04 < nmz787_i> ah, well it'd be interesting to see results of both with direct-connection and with an insulator between
14:05 < nmz787_i> if the magnetic-influenced stuff turned up something interesting, then that would seem to indicate some capability of wireless
14:06 < nmz787_i> (though I have some ideas on evolutionary topics of why wireless might not have happened on its own, due to security risk of broadcast vs point-to-point or peer-to-peer)
14:06 < nmz787_i> but there definitely seems to be the capability power-wise with physiologies found in electric fish
14:08 < archels> are there any known examples in the animal kingdom of communication via EM?
14:08 < chris_99> bees
14:08 < chris_99> or not exactly heh, they pick up EM from flowers
14:09 < chris_99> to know if other bees
14:09 < chris_99> have been on the flower
14:09 < archels> humans pick up EM from flowers -_-
14:09 < chris_99> heh i guess
14:10 < chris_99> *em field
14:11 < chris_99> ah it's called Magnetoception
14:11 < archels> "thermal noise has energies (0.025 eV) which are higher than radio wave photon energies (<0.001 eV) (it rules out both controlled creation and detection using molecules).
14:13 < archels> Because the intermediate stages are not evolutionarily favoured. That's why.
14:13 < archels> Sound and light perception are useful without any generative capability. An organism with a tiny amount of perception for either of these things has an advantage over those without; and an organism with a tiny amount more has an advantage over those with a tiny bit less. This advantage forms the basis for selection and thus improved sensory capabilities (balanced, of course, by the cost of those capabilities).
14:13 < archels> Being able to perceive radio on the other hand provides no useful information about the world at low level perception so even if an organism was to randomly mutate so as to detect radiowaves* there would be no selection for this ability, and thus no mechanism to drive the evolution of advanced radio reception. Without the ability to perceive radiowaves there is no possibility of evolving the ability to generate radio signals in a controlled ...
14:13 < archels> ... manner.
14:15 < archels> I guess cell-to-cell communication with photons is pretty well established
14:16 < archels> not sure what wavelengths that is at, probably close to visual
14:16 < archels> could be interesting for neurons too, but then you run into mean free path problems getting those photons out of the skull
14:22 < kanzure> is nmz787_i still upset about his radioneurons not picking up rush limbaugh
14:22 < nmz787_i> I haven't found any
14:22 < nmz787_i> (results in the animal kingdom)
14:23 < nmz787_i> there is a ton of what seems to be soviet-era misinformation though
14:23 < nmz787_i> which slowed down my research quite a bit
14:23 < chris_99> about what?
14:23 < nmz787_i> EM comms in animals/humans
14:23 < nmz787_i> some photobased stuff
14:23 < nmz787_i> some just crap
14:23 < chris_99> does the microwave auditary effect count
14:23 < chris_99> as communication
14:24 < nmz787_i> well, any way it gets the job done
14:24 < kanzure> many organisms communicate using the electromagnetic spectrum. why do you think people keep complaining about peacock tails?
14:25 < chris_99> and chameleons i guess
14:25 < nmz787_i> my feeling really just stems from the point that you could fit a wifi+computer in a lobotomized person's skull space... and the physiology for coding and electrical pulsing exists... so if it hasn't existed it's either too new to the scene for all the pieces to come together into a working system... or it failed early on because simple messages about food and resources would likely have been picked up by different species or something, making the sy
14:27 < nmz787_i> s/so if it hasn't existed/so if coded EM comms hasn't existed/
14:31 < archels> chris_99: that's just heating, no?
14:31 < archels> nmz787_i: you got cut off at "making the sy"
14:33 < chris_99> hmm i'm not sure
14:34 < chris_99> 'When microwaves are delivered in short pulses, the cochlear tissue in the ear expands.' so yeah i guess it could be
14:39 < nmz787_i> 'making the system fail'
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15:30 < CaptHindsight> the open BCI eeg can easily be produced for well under $100
15:30 < kanzure> too bad eeg sucks
15:31 < CaptHindsight> we need some nanobots to cruise around the brain while mapping and recording
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15:41 < kanzure> CaptHindsight: russell hanson wants to use gold nanoparticles to do neuroimaging at a synaptic resolution, but see criticism here (around 18:44 and forward) http://gnusha.org/logs/2014-11-28.log
15:59 < kanzure> why aren't there any long distance runners that are injecting insulin through their back or something throughout the duration of the race?
15:59 < kanzure> jrayhawk please advise.
16:05 < jrayhawk> insulin sensitivity is not typically a problem they have
16:06 < jrayhawk> or, rather, insulin insensitivity is not typically a problem they have
16:07 < kanzure> no i mean, instead of eating food or relying on stored energy, they can just pump shit into their body
16:07 < kanzure> (on-demand)
16:08 < jrayhawk> the limitations are in cellular and mitochondrial respiration
16:08 < jrayhawk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaerobic_glycolysis
16:10 < jrayhawk> they already are pumping shit into their body pretty thoroughly by carb-loading leading up to competition
16:11 < jrayhawk> some of them have been playing around with large quantities of artificial slow-digesting starches
16:11 < jrayhawk> http://www.google.com/search?q=running+superstarch&hl=en&gbv=1
16:13 < jrayhawk> http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=running+intestinal+permeability though i do have to wonder how intestinal permeability plays with that
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16:32 < cluckj> isn't insulin considered illegal in competitive running?
16:37 < cluckj> also too much insulin and even someone with a normal endocrine system will eat pavement
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16:54 < jrayhawk> in general, the attitude of "our peripheral tissues are undergoing so much oxidative stress that they're resisting energy uptake signals? welp, better just signal energy uptake EVEN HARDER!" is an artifact of a medical system obsessed with treating biomarkers and drugs that you should not seek to emulate
16:55 < jrayhawk> er, treating biomarkers with drugs
16:55 < cluckj> haha
16:55 < cluckj> yes
16:55 < cluckj> giving yourself extra insulin is just gonna give you insulin resistance
17:17 < kanzure> i think carl feynman is a vernor vinge fan http://mindstalk.net/vinge/fire.html
17:17 < kanzure> although this should not be surprising given his prior involvement with the boston extropians
17:20 < nmz787_i> CaptHindsight: this might be a good one https://fail0verflow.com/blog/2014/ov3-hardware.html
17:20 < nmz787_i> https://github.com/openvizsla/ov_ftdi
17:23 < CaptHindsight> USB Sniffer
17:31 < CaptHindsight> https://www.olimex.com/Products/Duino/Shields/SHIELD-EKG-EMG-PA/open-source-hardware
17:32 < CaptHindsight> https://www.olimex.com/Products/Duino/Shields/SHIELD-EKG-EMG/open-source-hardware
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17:34 < CaptHindsight> http://mobilecg.hu/ failed kickstarter ECG
17:35 < CaptHindsight> how do the regulatory approvals (CE, FDA)  cost?
17:35 < nmz787_i> FDA needs documentation from the ground up
17:35 < CaptHindsight> FDA is the big one
17:36 < nmz787_i> can't retrofit, technically all the writing needs done fresh when you say 'this is the start of the FDA process'
17:36 < nmz787_i> which includes PCB layout and code
17:37 < nmz787_i> that's about all I know
17:37 < nmz787_i> (worked on one project that was potentially going FDA)
17:37 < CaptHindsight> looks like he budgeted ~$100K
17:37 < nmz787_i> (that was all considered 'research', just saying that it was 'development' was the crossing-point for when to need to do the FDA-way of things)
17:38 < nmz787_i> top comment on that last page is pretty interesting
17:39 < nmz787_i> "Hi Mobilecg Team, Great work guys !!! guys need some input from you on Defib protection for IO lines...did this mobilecg pass 5KV defib test ? can you please share your inputs on how to design defib protection for IO lines."
17:39 < nmz787_i> " In my current project (ECG device/similar to mobilecg) i am observing that AFE1198 is getting hanged when a defib 5KV pulse is applied and restores back when reset. What could be the reason for AFE to hung,Please help me on this."
17:42 < kanzure> apparently you can self-certify for electronics, at least. as long as it is not medical.
17:52 < CaptHindsight> http://www.gammacardiosoft.it/openecg/
17:52 < heath> wasn't http://stellar.org brought up previously?
17:59 < nmz787_i> CaptHindsight: I would love to see a project like this, except with the LPC4370 chip as the center of attention http://www.banggood.com/DIY-Digital-Oscilloscope-Kit-Electronic-Learning-Kit-p-969762.html
17:59 < nmz787_i> CaptHindsight: anything with the LPC4370 in it would be a good choice
18:00 < nmz787_i> the only 'dev board' is this ~$20 thing which isn't very hacker friendly http://www.embeddedartists.com/products/lpcxpresso/lpclink2.php
18:01 < nmz787_i> the software is a bit much to deal with... but it shouldn't be too hard to arduino-ize it (since they've already done that for several other ARM chips already)
18:01 < kanzure> heath: it's just ripple. don't waste your time.
18:01 < nmz787_i> although a daughter board for the LPClinkv2 might be a cheaper route to getting it into peoples hands and getting the community support for software
18:03 < nmz787_i> http://www.gammacardiosoft.it/openecg/getting_started.htm#specifications
18:03 < nmz787_i> not too terrible
18:03 < nmz787_i> what's the price?
18:04 < nmz787_i> i could probably convert the orcad files to open-source ones
18:04 < nmz787_i> oh they also have gerbers
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18:35 < CaptHindsight> who was asking about the piezo micro pumps?  http://www.microjet.com.tw/en/products/list.php?pin=49600c3d3d05596e2da84e1774f0c398&type=s
18:36 < nmz787_i> micropumps are all the rage in here
18:36 < nmz787_i> price?
18:38 < CaptHindsight> http://www.curiejet.com/en/products/list.php?pin=099861a6e97183485912f85df4e401fd&type=s
18:40 < CaptHindsight> http://microjet.en.alibaba.com/product/704293821-215732156/CurieJet_Printer_ink_diaphragm_Micropump.html
18:42 < CaptHindsight> nmz787_i: <$50
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20:40 < kanzure> hmph
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21:04 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9345340
21:04 < yoleaux> Amphetamines Are Hiding in Your Supplements | Hacker News
21:04 < kanzure> okay with me
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21:19 < andytoshi> oh, that reminds me to take my iron pill
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--- Log closed Thu Apr 09 00:00:47 2015