--- Log opened Wed Apr 15 00:00:53 2015
00:02 -!- drewbot_ [~cinch@ec2-54-162-148-61.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
00:02 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-159-186-226.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
02:05 -!- JayDugger1 [~jwdugger@pool-173-74-74-250.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
02:27 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap
02:29 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
02:31 -!- Viper168_ is now known as Viper168
02:55 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap
03:38 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
03:45 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-coutreimbvrjopap] has joined ##hplusroadmap
03:51 -!- Douhet [~Douhet@unaffiliated/douhet] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
04:19 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting]
04:19 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap
04:39 -!- fauxami_ [fauxami@dialup.top-site.us] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
04:39 -!- fauxami_ [fauxami@dialup.top-site.us] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:05 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
05:05 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:10 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
05:19 -!- Douhet [~Douhet@unaffiliated/douhet] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:22 -!- helleshin [~talinck@66-161-138-110.ubr1.dyn.lebanon-oh.fuse.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:25 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/f5c6f77e1612ed842e20ad4d70cc516b.txt
05:34 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:37 < kanzure> hmm
05:48 -!- jdolan [~jdolan@2601:3:8200:11a7:5d0d:51ed:a426:d428] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
05:56 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap
06:02 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
06:11 -!- jdolan [~jdolan@c-69-138-133-17.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
06:16 -!- JayDugger [~jwdugger@108.19.186.58] has joined ##hplusroadmap
06:23 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap
06:52 < kanzure> http://radar.oreilly.com/2015/04/rebooting-a-1970s-satellite-with-modern-software-and-hardware.html
06:56 -!- helleshin [~talinck@66-161-138-110.ubr1.dyn.lebanon-oh.fuse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
07:01 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-73-104.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:02 < archels> some photos from yesterday http://imgur.com/a/xO2f4
07:02 < archels> CaptHindsight: see for microfluidics ^
07:03 < archels> they milled some insanely thin PCB traces there
07:03 < archels> the pixels are still quite large though, but they intend to go down to less than 1 mm^2
07:04 < archels> this was FabLab/Open Wetlab at De Waag in Amsterdam, by the way
07:05 < archels> very nice crowd, and good bank of equipment as far as I could glance
07:41 -!- JayDugger [~jwdugger@108.19.186.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
07:46 -!- helleshin [~talinck@66-161-138-110.ubr1.dyn.lebanon-oh.fuse.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:49 -!- jdolan [~jdolan@c-69-138-133-17.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
07:50 -!- jdolan [~jdolan@c-69-138-133-17.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:52 < CaptHindsight> microfluidics vs hacking carbon based microfactories
08:06 -!- JayDugger [~jwdugger@108.19.186.58] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:11 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-73-104.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
08:21 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:26 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
08:33 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:38 -!- JayDugger [~jwdugger@108.19.186.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
08:46 -!- cluckj [~cluckj@c-71-225-211-210.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
08:59 -!- nmz787_i [~ntmccork@134.134.139.77] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:06 -!- smokeink [~smoke@221.7.213.16] has quit [Quit: Angelic v4.4 - http://angelic.flexnet.org]
09:10 -!- nmz787_i [~ntmccork@134.134.139.77] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
09:27 -!- nmz787_i [~ntmccork@192.55.55.39] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:32 < kanzure> http://100yss.org/mission/purpose
09:38 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
09:49 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:10 -!- jdolan [~jdolan@c-69-138-133-17.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
10:22 -!- Joseph_P [~JosephP@c-65-96-232-109.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
10:30 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
10:30 -!- golfwang [~whereismy@112.133.196.41] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:31 -!- jdolan [~jdolan@c-50-188-243-111.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:35 -!- golfwang [~whereismy@112.133.196.41] has quit [Client Quit]
10:39 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:59 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-73-104.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:02 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-73-104.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
11:05 < kanzure> http://www.wired.com/2015/04/diy-biotech-vegan-cheese/
11:05 < kanzure> what was non-institutional about this, again?
11:07 < adlai> that it gives VC a whole new meaning
11:23 -!- golfwang [~whereismy@112.133.196.41] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:24 < kanzure> greetings golfwang
12:12 < golfwang> hi
12:42 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-39-200.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap
13:34 -!- jdolan [~jdolan@c-50-188-243-111.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:35 -!- jdolan [~jdolan@2601:3:8200:11a7:c56c:fb04:5daf:ba89] has joined ##hplusroadmap
13:36 -!- golfwang [~whereismy@112.133.196.41] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
13:39 -!- nmz787_i [~ntmccork@192.55.55.39] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
13:55 -!- cpopell7 [~cpopell@209.48.69.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
14:03 -!- cpopell7 [~cpopell@209.48.69.2] has joined ##hplusroadmap
14:08 < abetusk> archels, that's a milled board for microfluidics?  Do you have any more information on that?
14:15 < archels> no, but apparently there's a wiki somewhere
14:15 < archels> I haven't found it yet
14:24 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:36 -!- cpopell8 [~cpopell@209.48.69.2] has joined ##hplusroadmap
14:40 -!- cpopell7 [~cpopell@209.48.69.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
14:41 -!- sheena [~home@S0106c8be196316d1.ok.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
15:03 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
15:07 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap
15:18 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
15:21 -!- cluckj [~cluckj@c-71-225-211-210.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
15:23 < jrayhawk_> http://www.paleofx.com/paleo-events/2015-austin another paleofx coming up
15:35 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-39-200.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
16:01 -!- nmz787_i [~ntmccork@134.134.139.76] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:01  * nmz787_i is the proud new-owner of an SEM!
16:04 -!- HEx1 [~HEx@hexwab.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
16:09 -!- Joseph_P [~JosephP@c-65-96-232-109.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:17 -!- Taek [~quassel@2001:41d0:1:472e::] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:17 -!- Taek [~quassel@2001:41d0:1:472e::] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:23 < nmz787_i> imgur.com/wGX4pYQ
16:28 < archels> cool!
16:34 -!- sivoais_ [~zaki@199.19.225.239] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:34 -!- fenn_ [~fenn@unaffiliated/fenn] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:35 -!- yorick_ [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:35 -!- nmz787_i1 [~ntmccork@192.55.54.42] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:35 -!- BobaMa_ [bobama@kapsi.fi] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:38 -!- Qfwfq [~WashIrvin@unaffiliated/washirving] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
16:38 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
16:38 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
16:38 -!- Qfwfq [~WashIrvin@unaffiliated/washirving] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:39 -!- nmz787_i [~ntmccork@134.134.139.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
16:39 -!- BobaMa [~bobama@kapsi.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
16:39 -!- rigel [~yourmom@c-24-21-52-83.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
16:39 -!- fenn [~fenn@unaffiliated/fenn] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
16:39 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
16:41 -!- rigel [~yourmom@c-24-21-52-83.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:46 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:00 < nmz787_i1> now this is real hplus https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9_amg-Aos4
17:00 < nmz787_i1> .title
17:00 < yoleaux> Hawaii Chair Infomercial - YouTube
17:30 -!- yorick_ is now known as yorick
17:35 -!- balrog [~balrog@discferret/developer/balrog] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
17:36 -!- Douhet [~Douhet@unaffiliated/douhet] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
17:36 -!- Douhet [~Douhet@unaffiliated/douhet] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:36 -!- balrog [~balrog@discferret/developer/balrog] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:39 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:40 < nmz787_i1> .title http://www.jcnabity.com/
17:40 < yoleaux> NPGS for SEM Lithography & FIB Lithography
17:40 < kanzure> did you get the documentation?
17:40 < kanzure> or manuals
17:40 < nmz787_i1> "The Nanometer Pattern Generation System is the top selling SEM lithography system at research institutions in North America and its use has become widespread around the world."
17:40 < nmz787_i1> "The objective for NPGS is to provide a powerful, versatile, and easy to use system for doing advanced electron  beam lithography or ion beam lithography using a commercial SEM (Scanning Electron Microscope), STEM (Scanning Transmission Electron Microscope), FIB (Focused Ion Beam), dual beam (SEM/FIB), or Helium Ion microscope."
17:40 < nmz787_i1> "The success of NPGS at meeting this goal is demonstrated by the strong recommendations from current users."
17:41 < nmz787_i1> kanzure: he has some stuff from similar models
17:42 < nmz787_i1> he gave me a good overview of it though, and said I could come back and ask them questions (they also machine and repair their own adapters and fittings for their FIB/SEM/TEM units)
17:42 < nmz787_i1> "NPGS: The highest performance / lowest cost direct write Lithography System for over 20 years!"
17:47 < nmz787_i1> "High resolution for microscopy does not guarantee high resolution for lithography. Because secondary electron scattering at the surface broadens the lines, most fine lithography is done at high accelerating voltages. Research has been done with novel resists and processing techniques to allow low kV lithography, however, the finest lines are typically not as small as those written at higher voltages."
17:48 < nmz787_i1> "With the introduction of the new NPGS hardware, the writing speed of NPGS v9 is now 5 MHz, with a timing resolution of 0.25% or better at all speeds. No other system matches this combination of speed and timing resolution."
17:48 < nmz787_i1> "All older versions of NPGS up through v8.0 use a DAC board with a maximum writing speed of 100 kHz. Interestingly, even with this rather slow speed, the older versions of NPGS have been successfully used for a very wide range of SEM lithography applications for over 10 years, and have been the most widely used SEM lithography systems at the top research labs in the US. The only system with a higher level of customer satisfaction is NPGS v9."
17:48 < nmz787_i1> well now I know what I need to design to beat/match
17:49 < nmz787_i1> wow, the FAW on that site is great
17:49 < nmz787_i1> FAQ
17:51 < nmz787_i1> "NPGS does not use multiplying DACs in this fashion, because this approach is not necessary.  Instead, NPGS does the matrix calculation in software using 32 bit arithmetic and then outputs the final XY values through a single set of 16-bit DACs."
17:52 < CaptHindsight> nmz787: what is their line and space width?
17:52 < nmz787_i1> " Staircasing has never been reported with NPGS, because the full 16-bit resolution of the DACs is always used. Even when a low magnification is used such that the 16th bit of the DACs represents a relatively large step on the sample (for example, at 100x a typical 16th bit will be ~14nm), the limitations of the SEM will prevent such small features from being written anyway. Consequently, the use of an alignment matrix applied through software doe
17:53 < nmz787_i1> CaptHindsight: that depends on the DAC, zoom you're at, accelerating voltage, and optics of the machine
17:53 < nmz787_i1> I think I read this thing was quoted at 10nm spot size
17:53 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-coutreimbvrjopap] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
17:54 < nmz787_i1> but that would be when it was new, but from what this guy was saying unless there is rust present or someone dinged the end pole piece, the column itself should be fine
17:54 < CaptHindsight> "NPGS is the lowest cost high performance lithography system for SEM/STEM/FIB microscopes that is available. Please send E-mail for the NPGS pricing. "
17:54 < nmz787_i1> and the non-HV electronics should be all I need to mess with
17:54 < nmz787_i1> "For small quantities of premixed PMMA, you may want to start by contacting MicroChem, Inc."
17:55 < CaptHindsight> I make my own
17:55 < nmz787_i1> "How can I measure the thickness of my resist? "
17:55 < nmz787_i1> "If you don't have access to specialized equipment for precise height measurements, the easiest approach is to: a) Spin resist on a test sample and bake it as usual; b) Coat the sample with a thin layer of gold; c) Cleave the sample and mount it in the SEM so that the cleaved edge can be viewed."
17:55 < nmz787_i1> " While SEM distance measurements must be compared to a known standard before they can be trusted, for thickness measurements of resist, the typical accuracy of the SEM size marker should be good enough."
17:56 < CaptHindsight> the title should be "e-beam lithography using a SEM"
17:57 < nmz787_i1> .title http://www.jcnabity.com/sysdesc.htm
17:57 < yoleaux> NPGS System Description
17:58 < CaptHindsight> they use the ebeam to cure monomers and oligomer masks
18:00 < CaptHindsight> what they miss is that this may be used to cure a wide range of photopolymers, so it's also a nanoscale 3d printer
18:02 < nmz787_i1> using some sub-surface curing, or what? otherwise seems you'd need to add a spin-coater to the inside of the SEM chamber to avoid breaking vacuum
18:03 < CaptHindsight> nanospatula
18:05 < CaptHindsight> http://www.jcnabity.com/gisdots1.htm
18:07 < CaptHindsight> ebeam metal deposition
18:07 < CaptHindsight> on the nanoscale
18:09 < CaptHindsight> http://www.jcnabity.com/fibmill1.htm  nanoscale ion beam milling
18:11 < kanzure> "Large immobile masses of iron in the earth's crust enable two-way travel between two points in the planet's history." huh, cute gag
18:13 < kanzure> "An enigmatic traveler from the future, in a time vessel which cannot be breached, baffles scientists in his past. (His messages include: "you must travel through time by an equal amount of accumulate hindward potential...")"
18:17 < kanzure> "Takes place on Mars. A man has a virus that puts him to sleep every 15 years and he wakes 10 younger."
18:17 < CaptHindsight> nmz787_i1: are you going to build one to make your microfluidic devices?
18:18 < kanzure> "Multibillionaire clones a mammoth and sends it back in time." why
18:18 < kanzure> "Time travelers from 2042 try to prevent Socrates from consuming hemlock." hah
18:22 < cluckj> haha awesome
18:22 -!- sheena [~home@206.123.191.246] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:23 < CaptHindsight> http://now.snopes.com/2015/04/13/head-transplant/
18:24 < nmz787_i1> CaptHindsight: I have access to a FIB, so won't try building one of those for a while....
18:25 < nmz787_i1> but it looks like i'll be working on the scan/raster generator for this SEM
18:25 < nmz787_i1> CaptHindsight: pics (not mine) http://www.norsam.com/
18:27 < nmz787_i1> the e-beam deposition looks like something I could try doing though :)
18:27 < nmz787_i1> the feedstock for Pt deposition is $333 per gram ! http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/product/aldrich/645605?lang=en&region=US
18:27 < CaptHindsight> yeah, deposition and machining
18:27 < nmz787_i1> I wonder how little I'd use per device
18:28 < CaptHindsight> heh, Aldrich
18:28 < CaptHindsight> haven't ever ordered from them
18:28 < nmz787_i1> no other suppliers on google for 'MeCpPtMe3'
18:29 < nmz787_i1> $3200/10 grams http://www.scbt.com/datasheet-237341-trimethyl-methylcyclopentadienylplatinum-iv-.html
18:30 < nmz787_i1> ah, the longer form gets more supplier hits 'Trimethyl(methylcyclopentadienyl)platinum(IV)'
18:31 < nmz787_i1> VWR: $362/gram
18:32 < nmz787_i1> "Platinum complex widely used in CVD and ALD applications due, in part, to its simplicity (only C,H and Pt), volatility, and moderate decomposition temperatures."
18:32 < CaptHindsight> you want to get away from that
18:32 < nmz787_i1> you basically heat it up, it vaporizes, then you have a metering valve that you PWM
18:33 < CaptHindsight> and use the ebeam to directly deposit metals
18:33 < nmz787_i1> what do you mean? this coats the sample, then the ebeam causes the carbon to vaporize, leaving the Pt deposited
18:33 < nmz787_i1> are you saying like electrochemistry?
18:34 < nmz787_i1> can't use normal copper etch/deposition, since that's liquid phase
18:34 < nmz787_i1> err, maybe it would work as a conformal coating in gas phase?
18:34 < nmz787_i1> but Pt or Au is the standard for electrodes
18:35 < nmz787_i1> Cu is toxic to cells and stuff, probably enzymes don't like them too (idk about that really though)
18:35 < CaptHindsight> I'll follow up with you tomorrow
18:35 < CaptHindsight> have to run
18:35 < nmz787_i1> if only this was what I wanted http://www.strongsupplementshop.com/tri-methyl-platinum-by-epg
18:35 < nmz787_i1> $49.95
18:36 < CaptHindsight> but you need to be able to ebeam metals directly for it to be useful for a wide range of applications
18:44 < kanzure> hmm http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/32ny8n/torrenting_for_the_paranoid_coinado_downloads_any/
19:04 < cluckj> ooo
19:05 < cluckj> CCL is in Wired because of the vegan cheese thing
19:18 -!- nmz787_i1 [~ntmccork@192.55.54.42] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
19:37 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/83173?uid=3739920&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21106475013013
19:38 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/57bac66ba6874a70b1ba9641931ff6cf.pdf
19:38 < kanzure> "Problems in the resuscitation of mammals from body temperatures below 0 degrees C"
19:39 < cluckj> tl;dr "they are pretty dead"
19:40 < kanzure> :-)
19:50 < kanzure> oh
19:50 < kanzure> "In June 2005 scientists at the University of Pittsburgh's Safar Center for Resuscitation Research announced they had managed to place dogs in suspended animation and bring them back to life, most of them without brain damage, by draining the blood out of the dogs' bodies and injecting a low temperature solution into their circulatory systems, which in turn keeps the bodies alive in stasis. After three hours of being clinically dead, the ...
19:51 < kanzure> ... dogs' blood was returned to their circulatory systems, and the animals were revived by delivering an electric shock to their hearts. The heart started pumping the blood around the frozen body, and the dogs were brought back to life.[98]"
19:52 < kanzure> er, nevermind
20:02 < kanzure> we should also use selective breeding to make animal brains more compliant with recording and stimulation methods
20:03 < kanzure> or to breed for simpler brains that still accomplish roughly the same behavior
20:03 < kanzure> because simpler brains would be easier to study
20:06 < andytoshi> i don't believe you can get "simpler brains that still accomplish roughly the same behaviour" that seems computationally super hard and not at all possible by local search (which is all selective breeding can do)
20:06 < kanzure> also, other trivial things like animal lines that have organs that can survive multiple transplants and extended time outside of a body (this works great with non-vital organs because you cann literally still use the original animal)
20:06 < kanzure> well you can easily get smaller brains
20:07 < andytoshi> if by "roughly the same behaviour" you mean "retardeder" you can do that..
20:07 < kanzure> mass is pretty easy to measure
20:07 < kanzure> smaller brains are often not retarded
20:07 < kanzure> there are humans with 1/8th the brain mass and average iq performance
20:07 < andytoshi> hmm, this is true
20:08 < kanzure> but yea testing for intelligence is difficult
20:08 < kanzure> or impossible maybe
20:09 -!- sheena [~home@206.123.191.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20:11 < andytoshi> well, ignoring measurement i just think if you look for brains that are nearby in genetic space you aren't going to find any "useful" changes
20:12 < kanzure> reimplantable organs would be a neat trick. especially if you can get a liver that lives longer than a person.
20:12 < kanzure> andytoshi: why do you say that?
20:12 < andytoshi> kanzure:  because by "computationally really hard" i mean you've gotta do a lot of work to describe "simpler but essentially the same"; if you could just say "current design plus some small # of mutations" that'd contradict that
20:12 < andytoshi> it's a complexity argument
20:13 < andytoshi> i think survivability is much more likely to be selectable for because it's simpler to describe
20:13 < kanzure> you can definitely cause a small (and large) number of mutations
20:14 < kanzure> this is a common and important technique both in biology and mad science
20:14 < andytoshi> yes, understood, but you can only make local changes in design space that way
20:14 < kanzure> also: in selective breeding, you are the one selecting of course
20:14 < andytoshi> architecture-level changes generally aren't possible
20:14 < kanzure> yes local changes
20:15 < kanzure> so one way to counteract that is to increase hte size of your population
20:15 < andytoshi> you can't selectively breed humans with 3 arms, i think that's way simpler than dogs with "simpler brains"
20:15 < kanzure> 3 arms is easy that happens naturally all the time
20:16 < cluckj> is that how you type so quickly...
20:20 < kanzure> cluckj: something like that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UmEch1eRXo
20:20 < cluckj> nice
20:23 < kanzure> actually i've been slow all month because my keyboard has been falling apart
20:24 < kanzure> glorius game though https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vT6ZnPcvMk&t=1m
20:30 < kanzure> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGVHBiuZ0NY&t=1m
20:38 < kanzure> andytoshi: i wasn't trolling you btw..
20:39 < kanzure> also.... in the case of cryonics and selective breeding. suppose that you get stuck in a local minima in the search space.
20:40 < kanzure> well, nevermind. depends on your definition of stuck.
20:42 < kanzure> "Modification of the plasma cortisol response to stress in rainbow trout by selective breeding" http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0016648099973550
20:44 < kanzure> this one is neat: "Five generations of selective breeding for ultrasonic vocalization (USV) responses in N: NIH strain rats" "... This article reports on early results from an ongoing selective breeding study in which rats were selected for different rates of ultrasonic vocalization (USV) in response to isolation."
20:44 < kanzure> wait why "Selective breeding for aggressiveness in chickens"
20:46 < kanzure> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC24998/ "Unlike in mice, a myostatin null mutation in cattle causes a reduction in sizes of internal organs and only a modest increase in muscle mass (20–25% in the Belgian Blue breed as compared with 200–300% in myostatin-deficient mice). It is possible that cattle may be nearer to a maximal limit of muscle size after generations of selective breeding for large muscle mass, unlike mice, ...
20:46 < kanzure> ... which have not been similarly selected. In this regard, even in cattle breeds that are not heavily muscled, the myostatin sequence contains two adjacent nonconservative amino acid differences (EG vs. KE) in the C-terminal region, compared with all other species examined. Although the functional significance of these differences is unknown, it is possible that these two changes represent a partial loss-of-function allele that became ...
20:46 < kanzure> ... fixed in the population during many years of cattle breeding."
20:46 < kanzure> "The evolution of gene expression in mouse hippocampus in response to selective breeding for increased locomotor activity" http://www.biology.ucr.edu/people/faculty/Garland/BronEA04.pdf
20:47 < kanzure> "Neurobiology of mice selected for high voluntary wheel-running activity" http://www.biology.ucr.edu/people/faculty/Garland/RhodEA05.pdf
20:47 < kanzure> "Artificial selection for increased maternal defense behavior in mice" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2423941/
21:23 < andytoshi> kanzure: heya, i didn't think you were trolling me, just that you were being too optimistic about what kind of designs are accessible via selection in a reasonable timeframe
21:24 < andytoshi> but perhaps i'm being too pessimistic
21:24 < andytoshi> you certainly know more examples of successful directed evolution experiments, but in the case of brains i think the design space is too sparse to do much of anything by local search
21:25 < andytoshi> i definitely think wrongly since i would predict that intelligent brains would never appear in the first place, but idk how i'm wrong
21:32 < kanzure> andytoshi: http://fennetic.net/irc/human_chimpanzee_brain_differences.png
21:32 < kanzure> this is from variation in just a few hundred genes
21:36 < kanzure> this diagram is from http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Transcriptomic%20insights%20into%20human%20brain%20evolution:%20acceleration,%20neutrality,%20heterochrony.pdf
21:42 < kanzure> oh hm "In fact, delayed synaptic maturation in human PFC relative to macaque had been known, but whether this was human-specific, or hominoid-specific, had remained unclear [93]. According to this study, peak density of synapses in PFC (later removed by synaptic pruning [94]) occurs shortly after birth in macaque and chimpanzee, but in humans, at around 3–5 years of age [64] (but see [95]). The delayed peak can also be observed in peak ...
21:42 < kanzure> ... aerobic glycolysis around the same period [96]."
22:31 < kanzure> "There is some conflating ideas there. Anonymity isn't something any software can provide: it's a way of life and a style of interactions that constrains your every action. Privacy is something with a much narrower scope, as is the highly related fungibility; both are prerequisites for anonymity but they are not anonymity."
22:31 < kanzure> "There are plenty of places where transparency is also essential. But that isn't an incompatibility: you can always take a private system and add provable transparency in known and controlled ways, the other direction is much harder."
22:46 < kanzure> "A similar idea in the works is using bacteria to produce sugar and other nutrients. One company claims they can make more than 30 times as much sugar per acre as regular agriculture." (proterro)
22:46 < kanzure> ( http://greenchemicalsblog.com/2013/09/30/proterros-cellulosic-sugar-ready-for-pilot-scale/ )
22:48 < kanzure> real-time hand tracking http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/238453/pn362-sharp.pdf
22:51 < kanzure> "The labor-intensive and error-prone nature of manually tagging hand images makes it expensive to annotate extended sequences. Our new FINGERPAINT dataset instead provides a semi-automatic means of obtaining ground truth. We simultaneously captured video of painted hands using both a prototype time of flight depth sensor and a standard RGB camera. Having calibrated the cameras, an automatic color segmentation algorithm can be used to ...
22:51 < kanzure> ... give pixel-wise ground truth hand part labels across extended sequences. The labels are manually corrected where color segmentation is incorrect. This provides a ‘proxy’ ground truth: we do not have joint angles/positions, but achieving high accuracy on a pixelsegmentation metric (see below) is only achievable with accurate pose estimation. Further, these labels cover the whole hand, unlike some datasets e.g. only labeling ...
22:51 < kanzure> ... fingertips."
22:54 < kanzure> 30 Hz isn't too bad
23:21 -!- strangewarp_ [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:23 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
23:35 -!- jdolan [~jdolan@2601:3:8200:11a7:c56c:fb04:5daf:ba89] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
23:45 -!- jdolan [~jdolan@c-50-188-243-111.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:48 -!- Joseph_Prince [~JosephP@c-65-96-232-109.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:52 -!- Joseph_P [~JosephP@c-65-96-232-109.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
--- Log closed Thu Apr 16 00:00:54 2015