--- Log opened Wed Jun 17 00:00:44 2015
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04:36 < pansophical> what are all the possible ways of boosting BDNF, and similar factors?
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04:37 < archels> physical exercise
04:38 < fenn> lion's mane mushroom
04:38 < pansophical> fenn: i tried it for 3 months with no obvious effect
04:38 < fenn> well who said it would be obvious
04:39 < pansophical> not obvious effects are incredibly hard to measure,
04:39 < pansophical> right..
04:40 < fenn> if your temperature goes up 1 degree it's easy to measure, but also not obvious subjectively
04:40 < fenn> anyway, why are you interested in BDNF?
04:41 < fenn> "Niacin appears to upregulate BDNF and tropomyosin receptor kinase B (TrkB) expression as well"
04:42 < pansophical> fenn: guess i have a sufficient amount of free time ;)
04:43 < fenn> hm nevermind about niacin, that was in the context of extreme deficiency
04:43 < pansophical> it's a vitamin.. isn't it
05:01 < fenn> .title http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15381288
05:01 < yoleaux> Fluoxetine-induced change in rat brain expression of brain-derived neurotrophic factor varies depending on length of treatment. - PubMed - NCBI
05:02 < fenn> there's talk that prozac's true mechanism may be due to upregulating BDNF, but who knows
05:03 < fenn> 'Responders” to treatment (≥ 50% improvement in depression ratings) had higher pre-treatment BDNF levels than did “Non-responders” (p< 0.05).
05:04 < fenn> These results confirm low serum BDNF levels in unmedicated depressed subjects and confirm antidepressant-induced increases in BDNF levels, but they suggest that antidepressants do not work simply by correcting BDNF insufficiency. Rather, these findings are consistent with a permissive or facilitatory role of BDNF in the mechanism of action of antidepressants.
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05:12 < kanzure> hmm i wonder how much bdnf gets lost to serum
05:14 < kanzure> .title http://www.dcbhv.org/
05:14 < yoleaux> DEF CON Bio Hacking Village
05:15 < kanzure> gizmodo is now including their pgp public key at the bottom of each article?
05:20 < archels> "Also, it should be sane..."
05:20 < archels> bah
05:21 < fenn> "Rita Levi-Montalcini (discoverer of NGF & subsequent Nobel Prize winner) had been taking pure NGF in the form of eyedrops every day for some 33 years until her death. She said, at age 103, that she was more mentally acute than she felt at age 20." http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/is-this-the-secret-of-eternal-life-1674005.html
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05:24 < kanzure> why would whether you feel mentally acute be misconstrued as "eternal life" by the journalist?
05:24 < pansophical> it's a journalist, don't expect too much from them..
05:25 < fenn> sorry for the puff piece, it wasn't important
05:26 < kanzure> pansophical: i should be free to apply absurdly high standards wherever i see fit, pfft
05:26 < fenn> i guess i was mostly surprised that you could get any benefit from NGF eyedrops
05:26 < pansophical> kanzure: that same freedom presupposes the freedom of some other party not to adhere to them ;)
05:27 < kanzure> totes
05:27 < kanzure> .wik nardosinone
05:27 < yoleaux> kanzure: Sorry, that command (.wik) crashed.
05:28 < fenn> "NGF is abundant in seminal plasma. Recent studies have found that it induces ovulation in some mammals e.g. “induced” ovulators, such as llamas. Surprisingly, research showed that these induced animals will also ovulate when semen from on-schedule or “spontaneous” ovulators, such as cattle is used. Its significance in humans is currently unknown."
05:28 < fenn> come on baby, let's do science
05:31 < fenn> "NGF levels were significantly higher in the subjects in love ... but these levels return to as they were after one year."
05:32 < kanzure> pansophical: you could also localized transcranial ultrasound bursting of bdnf microbubbles in the human brain
05:32 < kanzure> also use*
05:33 < fenn> you could also just inject it straight into your temple with a huge needle
05:33 < pansophical> seems reasonable
05:33 < kanzure> how precise could that be, though
05:33 < fenn> don't be a wuss
05:33 < pansophical> could we test it on you first ;)
05:33 < kanzure> k
05:33 < ebowden> What about a small molecule Blood Brain Barier permeable TrkB agonist, such as 7,8-dihydroxyflavone?
05:34 < kanzure> what about it?
05:34 < ebowden> Why not use that instead of injecting BDNF into the brain with a huge needle?
05:35 < kanzure> that sounds even less localized
05:35 < ebowden> It's orally bioavailable, you don't need to inject it all.
05:35 < ebowden> Yup.
05:35 < fenn> .wik 7,8-dihydroxyflavone
05:35 < yoleaux> fenn: Sorry, that command (.wik) crashed.
05:35 < fenn> pff
05:35 < kanzure> dpk: plzfix yoleaux wik command
05:35 < dpk> wtf
05:35 < kanzure> dpk: i think it's broken because of the wikipedia https rollout?
05:35 < dpk> how has that broken
05:35 < ebowden> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7,8-Dihydroxyflavone
05:35 < dpk> oh, probably
05:37 < fenn> hum i've never heard of the herb called tridax
05:38 < fenn> "Tridax procumbens is known for several potential therapeutic activities like antiviral, anti oxidant antibiotic efficacies, wound healing activity, insecticidal and anti-inflammatory activity."
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05:38 < fenn> ooh and it's a hair tonic!
05:38 < ebowden> Don't care about the herb much, mainly concerned with the TrkB agonist 7,8-dihydroxyflavone.
05:39 < fenn> yes but it makes it much more likely that one could actually acquire the substance
05:39 < dpk> .w test
05:39 < yoleaux> test¹ (/tɛst/): n. 1. A procedure intended to establish the quality, performance, or reliability of something, especially before it is taken into widespread use; 2. short for Test match; v. Take measures to check the quality, performance, or reliability of (something), especially before putting it into widespread use or practice — http://is.gd/V6ZrmV
05:39 < dpk> .tr :en :de lol
05:39 < yoleaux> dpk: Sorry, that command (.tr) crashed.
05:40 < dpk> i attempt fix
05:40 < ebowden> The only way I've seen people get it is through custom synths.
05:40 < ebowden> I don't think it is present in those herbs in very large amounts.
05:40 < fenn> people are using it as a weight loss supplement i guess? http://www.primulaleafextract.com/
05:41 < ebowden> Only works in female mice.
05:41 < ebowden> Well, 7,8-dihydroxyflavone does.
05:41 < ebowden> No idea about the herb/
05:41 < ebowden> No idea about the herb.
05:42 < fenn> do you think other common flavonoids are Trk-B inhibitors?
05:43 < fenn> the molecular structure looks pretty similar to e.g. quercetin
05:47 < dpk> .reload
05:47 < yoleaux> dpk: Reload done (took 0.291s).
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05:47 < dpk> .wik 7,8-dihydroxyflavone
05:47 < yoleaux> "7,8-Dihydroxyflavone (7,8-DHF) is a naturally-occurring flavone found in Godmania aesculifolia, Tridax procumbens, and primula tree leaves." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7,8-dihydroxyflavone
05:47 < dpk> .tr guten Tag
05:47 < yoleaux> dpk: Sorry, that command (.tr) crashed.
05:48 < dpk> (oh well, i tried)
05:48 < fenn> .gc derp
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05:48 < yoleaux> 17,500,000 (site), 1,400,000 (api)
05:49 < fenn> .gc 7,8-dihydroxyflavone
05:49 < yoleaux> 46,800 (site), 31,800 (end), 5,310 (api)
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05:49 < dpk> .tr bonjour
05:49 < yoleaux> dpk: Sorry, that command (.tr) crashed.
05:50 < fenn> translate hasn't worked for a long time
05:50 < dpk> yeah, i'm trying to fix it
05:59 < fenn> "It is likely that many people take in small amounts of 7,8-dihydroxyflavone in their diets," Ye says. "But drinking green tea or eating apples doesn't give you enough for a sustained effect."
05:59 < fenn> In the initial screening process, several flavonoid compounds had similar properties to 7,8-dihydroxyflavone. Ye says his laboratory has already identified compounds that are several times more active. The next step is more animal studies to choose compounds likely to have the best drug profiles: stable and non-toxic.
05:59 < fenn> that was in 2010
05:59 < fenn> Keqiang Ye at Emory University
06:01 < fenn> http://pathology.emory.edu/LabPages/Research_LabPage_YeK.cfm
06:02 < fenn> pending patent  61/161,911, Catecholamine derivatives as TrkB Agonists, Useful for Treatment of Neurological Diseases and Obesity
06:02 < dpk> .reload
06:02 < yoleaux> dpk: Reload done (took 0.283s).
06:03 < dpk> .tr ich freu mich auf dir
06:03 < yoleaux> dpk: Sorry, that command (.tr) crashed.
06:03 < dpk> whut
06:03 < dpk> oh, it helps to actually deploy the changes
06:03 < dpk> .reload
06:03 < yoleaux> dpk: Reload done (took 0.285s).
06:03 < dpk> .tr ich freu mich auf dir
06:03 < yoleaux> I'm looking forward to you (de → en)
06:04 < fenn> GRATZ DPK
06:04 < ebowden> A more active derivative was 4'dimethylamino-7,8-dihydroxyflavone.
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06:07 < fenn> wow people are already selling this chemical online
06:10 < fenn> http://www.seoultrademall.com/co/hhdpharm/Nootropics_4_DMA_7_8--8673937_8484259.html
06:10 < fenn> minimum order 10kg
06:12 < ebowden> How do you know that they'll send you chemical, if anything at all?
06:12 < ebowden> *the chemical, if
06:16 < kanzure> why would that matter?
06:16 < kanzure> there's lots of consumer protections in place (like chargebacks)
06:17 < fenn> dealing with chinese suppliers is always going to be sketchy, regardless what it is that you're buying
06:18 < fenn> apparently they actually managed to procure some from a lab in canada http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/67693-78-dihydroxyflavone-group-buy/
06:25 < fenn> "Some other supplements such as Bacopa monnieri and Polygala tenuifolia tend to work via activating this receptor via releasing BDNF in the brain."
06:27 < fenn> .title http://www.researchgate.net/publication/264676311_Chronic_Administration_of_Bacopa_Monniera_Increases_BDNF_Protein_and_mRNA_Expressions_A_Study_in_Chronic_Unpredictable_Stress_Induced_Animal_Model_of_Depression
06:27 < yoleaux> Chronic Administration of Bacopa Monniera Increases BDNF Protein and mRNA Expressions: A Study in Chronic Unpredictable Stress Induced Animal Model of Depression (PDF Download Available)
06:27 < fenn> derp
06:30 < ebowden> A less sketchy supplier: http://www.trc-canada.com/detail.php?CatNum=D452830&CAS=38183-03-8&Chemical_Name=7,8-Dihydroxyflavone%20&Mol_Formula=C15H10O4&Synonym=7,8-Dihydroxy-2-phenyl-4H-chromen-4-one;%207,8-Dihydroxy-2-phenyl-4H-1-benzopyran-4-one;
06:30 < fenn> yes they also have the 4'dma-7,8-dhf
06:31 < fenn> significantly more expensive though... 1200USD/2.5g
06:31 < fenn> er, 1200USD/250mg
06:32 < EnLilaSko> Oh, thought it was just 7,8-DHF
06:32 < EnLilaSko> If it was, that would be super expensive, lol
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06:34 < fenn> awareness and the availability as an herbal extract should drive the price of 7,8DHF down to dirt cheap
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06:34 < EnLilaSko> 7,8-DHF is fairly cheap, atleast was
06:34 < EnLilaSko> Is it ok to talk sources here?
06:35 < ebowden_> Where was it cheap?
06:35 < EnLilaSko> tht.co
06:35 < ebowden_> Oh, been on that site.
06:35 < EnLilaSko> Think New Star Nootropics and/or Ceretropic might carry it soon
06:35 < EnLilaSko> I have some left, like 100 mg
06:36 < fenn> is 1mg/kg correct dosage for a human?
06:36 < EnLilaSko> .g examine.com 7,8-dihydroxyflavone
06:36 < yoleaux> http://examine.com/supplements/7,8-Dihydroxyflavone/
06:36 < fenn> that's where i got those numbers from :\
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06:36 < EnLilaSko> Looks like 1 mg/kg
06:37 < ebowden_> EnLilaSko, where did you get it?
06:37 < EnLilaSko> I got it from THT
06:37 < ebowden_> Is that the mouse dosage or human dosage?
06:37 < ebowden_> Ok.
06:37 < EnLilaSko> The 1mg/kg is converted to human dosage (from rats)
06:38 < kanzure> .title http://tht.co/
06:38 < yoleaux> TRANSHUMAN TECHNOLOGIES
06:38 < EnLilaSko> It's not up atm
06:38 < EnLilaSko> I think
06:38 < ebowden_> http://www.trc-canada.com/detail.php?CatNum=D452830&CAS=38183-03-8&Chemical_Name=7,8-Dihydroxyflavone%20&Mol_Formula=C15H10O4&Synonym=7,8-Dihydroxy-2-phenyl-4H-chromen-4-one;%207,8-Dihydroxy-2-phenyl-4H-1-benzopyran-4-one;
06:38 < kanzure> https://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/comments/2hx9fd/review_of_transhuman_technologies_thtco/
06:38 < EnLilaSko> If you mailed new star nootropics, ceretropic or any other big supplier, they'll most likely start carrying it
06:38 < kanzure> https://www.reddit.com/r/Scholar/comments/3a1276/libgen_is_now_banned_in_the_uk_does_anyone_have/
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06:39 < ebowden_> "We are currently reorganizing the website to cater better to our academic and corporate clients."
06:39 < kanzure> https://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/comments/39q6vy/whatever_happened_to_thtco_are_they_still_in/
06:40 < fenn> "As you can see, the product is very nicely packaged." woo, who cares
06:40 < EnLilaSko> Hmm, they have said they wouldn't drop selling to the public
06:40 < EnLilaSko> Maybe they changed again
06:41 < kanzure> "Role of the phosphoinositide signal system and methylation of phosphatidylethanolamine in the development of long-term post-tetanic potentiation in rats" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9194057
06:41 < kanzure> this guy seems to be just nootropics + pokemon, i like him https://www.reddit.com/user/ProfWiki?sort=top
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06:44 < EnLilaSko> Seems like 7,8-DHF did cost around 20-30 bucks
06:44 < EnLilaSko> 1 g that is
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06:49 < fenn> well there's always the slow way: http://b-and-t-world-seeds.com/cartall.asp?species=Tridax%20procumbens%20bs&sref=85703
06:55 < ebowden> How do you know you'd get reasonable doses?
06:55 < fenn> "This plant commonly available everywhere in India.In North Karnataka its called as neeru kasa and in Hindi Ghamra. Its best Aurvedic antiseptic for wounds."
06:55 < fenn> i have no idea what the concentration of 7,8-DHF would be
06:56 < fenn> i guess you could extrapolate from concentrations of other flavones in similar plants, but ideally you'd have a chemistry lab analyze it
06:57 < fenn> tridax has several other theraputic compounds in it, which makes it confusing
06:58 < fenn> the herbology dosage could be for some other chemical/effect
07:01 < EnLilaSko> Why did you start talking about 7,8-DHF btw?
07:02 < fenn> .title http://www.ijarnp.org/index.php/ijarnp/article/view/58
07:02 < yoleaux> Extraction and Pharmacological Evaluation of Some Extracts of Tridax procumbens and Capparis decidua | Sharma | International Journal of Applied Research in Natural Products
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07:02 < fenn> EnLilaSko: some random person came in and wanted to know "all the possible ways of boosting BDNF, and similar factors"
07:06 < fenn> nevermind, this ijarnp paper is terrible - they only measure the microbial inhibition activity, not any standard measurement like mass or molarity
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07:26 < EnLilaSko> aha
07:34 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-Acetylserotonin#The_TrkB_receptor
07:34 < fenn> a different small molecule
07:34 < fenn> it probably has huge subjective side effects
07:36 < fenn> 30 minute half life though
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08:47 < JayDugger> Good morning.
09:11 < delinquentme> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9731111
09:11 < delinquentme> in a CS forum ... they're talking abour crispr
09:11 < delinquentme> #woot
09:16 < kanzure> "In a little over 10 minutes, a Sensefy eBee drone flew over the Le Grand Bois quarry in Switzerland. The drone imagery was uploaded to Mapbox along with the digital surface model captured in flight. The imagery becomes an interactive map and our Surface API allows complex calculations to be performed on the digital surface model, like how much material was extracted from the quarry."
09:16 < kanzure> oh is mapbox == skybox?
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11:19 < eudoxia> kanzure: you might want to stalk this guy, he's doing computational chemistry work halfway between MNT and biologically-inspired nanochemistry https://chem.cst.temple.edu/directory/faculty/schafmeister/
11:19 < eudoxia> or that's what i got from a short talk on IRC http://log.irc.tymoon.eu/freenode/clasp?from=2015-06-17T13%3A00%3A52&to=2015-06-17T13%3A35%3A54
11:27 < kanzure> i really hate bird arguments
11:27 < kanzure> i have never seen the bird argument used in the correct situation
11:28 < kanzure> i think you could use selection to get a set of amino acids that build predictable three-dimensional structures
11:28 < kanzure> predictable in the sense that the sequence predicts the result in some human-understandable way
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17:45 < kanzure> beep
17:49 < signo5> boop
17:50 < kanzure> ah..
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19:55 < kanzure> http://www.spacex.com/sites/spacex/files/spacex_hyperloop_pod_competition.pdf
19:56 < kanzure> and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9720033
20:00 < kanzure> http://archiveteam.org/index.php?title=INTERNETARCHIVE.BAK
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21:21 < delinquentme> kanzure, i need a centrifuge
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--- Log closed Thu Jun 18 00:00:45 2015