--- Log opened Sat Jun 20 00:00:46 2015
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01:39 < fenn> wow, cryonics expert loses all data because of no backups, such irony
02:02 < eleitl> Some people are not good with computers.
02:03 < eleitl> Some people who are good with computers are just disorganized.
02:11 < maaku> yeah, uh, that would describe me
02:11  * maaku looks at disorganized mess, silently shrieks in horror, and goes back to reading reddit
02:13 < eleitl> Heh.
02:13 < eleitl> Right. /me goes to /r/collapse
02:14 < eleitl> Hoster kicked out voat.co
02:15 < eleitl> One of the reasons why I never got into Bitcoin is need for data discipline.
02:16 < eleitl> Understanding wallets, keeping systems secure, having enough backup media around. And trust in an open source project in general.
02:16 < eleitl> Trusting exchanges. Etc.
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04:01 < fenn> the point is you're not supposed to trust an exchange
04:01 < fenn> somehow nobody got the memo
04:19 < fenn> parallella is now $99
04:30 < eleitl> yes, but I have got mine.
04:30 < eleitl> not doing much with it, too limited on time.
04:31 < kanzure> this whole planet is insufferable and crap; why do i have to be the only one that has backups.
04:31 < eleitl> The point of trust in exchanges is that when you send money and buy bitcoin, and transfer it to your wallet the probability is sufficiently low that you get shafted.
04:31 < eleitl> kanzure, let's each make an lg mirror, so that we don't need to RAID
04:32 < eleitl> we'll be each other's redundancy
04:32 < kanzure> way ahead of you
04:33 < eleitl> see mail
04:34 < eleitl> will be afk for a couple hours, kid needs to minecraft
04:34 < fenn> those blocks don't mine themselves
04:35 < eleitl> Network sync on 0.10.1.0 takes fucking forever
04:35 < eleitl> 18 weeks behind, gimme a break
04:35 < eleitl> allright, see you later
04:37  * fenn mumbles something about byzantine decentralized minecraft servers
05:09 < fenn> all these parallella demos are super unimpressive
05:15 < kanzure> bitcoin-development mailing list is moving to bitcoin-dev at https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
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05:16 < fenn> "The archive will be wiped on Tuesday, June 23rd, 2015 when the list is switched over"
05:17 < fenn> wtf is the point of that
05:17 < kanzure> to get the subscribers first
05:17 < kanzure> since there's no good way to export from sourceforge
05:17 < kanzure> also they are overriding the archives with a backup from sourceforge
05:19 < fenn> there's no list of subscribers?
05:21 < kanzure> dunno
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05:38 < kanzure> so what were the conclusions from yesterday's oligonucleotide romp
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05:41 < fenn> the machine needs a purpose to aim towards, error correction is hard, and we need a better understanding of the chemical reactions involved
05:46 < kanzure> purpose should be at minimum primers, and it would be nice to have a few million bp
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06:19 < eleitl> fenn, parallella fist gen is a toy/demo machine
06:19 < eleitl> Next gen would have been more useful. And you need more embedded memory in each node.
06:20 < eleitl> However, I don't expect they will get the money for second gen.
06:20 < fenn> well it just seems like they aren't even trying... you could do better demos with a single core even
06:20 < eleitl> Zero manpower. And the community never kindled.
06:21 < eleitl> See me, for instance. Thing's been idling.
06:21 < eleitl> Client "only" 11 weeks behind.
06:22 < fenn> you can run a supercomputer.io image and let someone else utilize the spare cycles
06:22 < eleitl> Synched 7 weeks in 3 hours.
06:22 < eleitl> If I run that image I can't tinker with the system myself. It's exclusive.
06:23 < fenn> i think you can just swap out the sd card
06:24 < eleitl> Yes, but the system is not a reliable booter.
06:24 < eleitl> It's rather flaky, actually.
06:24 < fenn> oh that's too bad
06:25 < fenn> often these sbc toys need a larger heavy duty power supply to run reliably
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06:26 < eleitl> I have a heavy duty power supply. But even so, just checked, and the board was hanging at the two tuxes stage. I never rebooted it.
06:27 < eleitl> It's well-ventilated, too.
06:27 < eleitl> Now it is back up. For however long.
06:28 < ThomasEgi> eleitl, have you checked the logfiles? maybe it's not the psu but some other weirdo thing. like waiting for networkinterfaces to get configured by dhcp etc.
06:28 < fenn> i guess my programming efforts would be better devoted to figuring out the commodity "mali" GPU found in every cheap mobile phone processor
06:29 < eleitl> No, the board has a static address.
06:29 < eleitl> Maybe there was a power fluctuation in the last months, and it crashed.
06:32 < eleitl> In any case Parallella is a single source vendor that has started smelling funny.
06:32 < eleitl> But the stacked memory APU might become interesting, should Zen ever ship.
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06:34 < eleitl> GPGPU always had memory bandwidth and access pattern issues.
06:34 < fenn> it would be quite a trick for an open source chip design to start being sold by multiple companies
06:34 < eleitl> Parallella isn't an open source design.
06:35 < fenn> it's not?
06:35 < fenn> i thought that was the whole point
06:35 < eleitl> At least the chip isn't. Just the board and everything else.
06:35 < eleitl> If the core was open we would have a chance.
06:36 < fenn> bah. well what's the point then
06:36 < eleitl> Olofsson hinted he *might* make it open eventually.
06:36 < fenn> with so many open source cores available, why *wouldnt* you use one of them
06:36 < eleitl> A toy system to prototype code on next-next gen supercomputers.
06:37 < eleitl> Because it's a SHARCish DSP core.
06:37 < fenn> ok, well i don't care about "supercomputers"
06:37 < fenn> maybe that was cool in the 90's
06:37 < eleitl> In general future computers will be all the same way.
06:38 < fenn> right, we already are carrying around 8 core phone processors
06:38 < eleitl> Small systems would be just smaller slices of bigger ones. Less nodes, but the same nodes.
06:38 < eleitl> These are not cores, these are nodes on a mesh. It's a cluster on a chip.
06:38 < fenn> i don't see what the difference is
06:38 < eleitl> You can also buy a Xeon Phi, if you have the money, and want to burn 300 W.
06:38 < eleitl> Very large difference.
06:39 < eleitl> It has a signalling mesh with embedded memory, and no MMU.
06:39 < eleitl> Parallella is being honest about physics.
06:39 < fenn> is it just the size of the cache?
06:39 < eleitl> There is no cache.
06:39 < eleitl> That's the point, with embedded memory you don't need a cache.
06:40 < fenn> uh, i have no idea what you're talking about
06:40 < eleitl> It's a big waste eliminated, if you care about maximum crank from a given area of silicon real estate.
06:40 < fenn> cache is just on-chip memory
06:40 < eleitl> Why do you need a cache? Because your main core is so slow.
06:41 < fenn> you need cache because memory accesses take so long, not because the CPU is slow. jeez
06:41 < eleitl> Cache is not organized as RAM, it has access penalties, and what is in cache cannot be in RAM.
06:41 < eleitl> Core, as in core memory.
06:42 < eleitl> Olofsson did the right thing.
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06:42 < eleitl> But people can't handle the truth.
06:42 < eleitl> Your software development model prevents you from using hardware that is asymptotically approaching an optimal architecture.
06:43 < eleitl> Of course, this means Parallella is dead.
06:43 < fenn> well i agree about that, people are still running windows on x86
06:43 < eleitl> In another two decades, people will come to that understanding.
06:43 < eleitl> Meanwhile, there's Xeon Phi, or DIY Beowulf.
06:44 < eleitl> InfiniBand is cheap enough.
06:44 < eleitl> But, you better have free power.
06:45 < eleitl> If I fire up everything I have laying around I would be burning some kW. That's 2 kEUR/year.
06:45 < eleitl> Uh, I don't think so.
06:47 < fenn> most of that power is dissipated in copper "wires" in the chips. easily bypassed by using on-chip optical interconnects
06:47 < kanzure> i think that for the oligonucleotide machine we should just copy existing protocols (posam or abi391) instead of fiddling at first
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06:47 < kanzure> stepwise yield's gotta be high because even 80 bp tolerates almost no error
06:48 < fenn> 80 was just an arbitrary number
06:48 < kanzure> well, i think you want at least 20 bp wings on both ends
06:48 < kanzure> .wa 4^20
06:48 < yoleaux> 4²⁰: 1099511627776; Scientific notation: 1.099511627776 × 10¹²; Number name: 1 trillion 99 billion 511 million 627 thousand 776; Number line: http://is.gd/S3hwXq; Number length: 13 decimal digits; Comparisons: ~0.055 × the number of red blood cells in the human body (~2×10¹³); ~3.7 × the number of stars in our galaxy (~3×10¹¹); ~10 × the number of people who have ever lived (~1.1×10¹¹)
06:49 < eleitl> kanzure, I suggest using online server for data exchange
06:49 < kanzure> i thought you said you had zero upload?
06:49 < eleitl> shipping 3.5" will run into customs
06:50 < kanzure> well i was thinking i'd just send you bitcoin, but whatever
06:50 < eleitl> I have a 3 TByte box on GBit/s, but my home connection is 10+6/100+50.
06:50 < kanzure> arghhh frank foran emails :-(
06:50 < kanzure> *forman
06:51 < eleitl> Customs don't like hard drives in the mail, and refuse to believe they're used, and just data carriers
06:51 < kanzure> eleitl: well i have stuff to send (although not everything you seek)
06:51 < kanzure> gimme ssh access and i can send
06:52 < eleitl> Ok. Let's compare who has which parts.
06:52 < kanzure> at the moment i can't send any of those parts
06:52 < kanzure> i have other things though
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06:52 < eleitl> Allright. Would a TByte would be enough?
06:52 < kanzure> yes for now
06:53 < eleitl> Great. Time to save up for these 6 TByte drives.
06:53 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/bryan.pub
06:54 < eleitl> Thanks. Will set up a guest later today or tomorrow.
06:55 < eleitl> Parallella board is still up.
06:56 < eleitl> kanzure, I'm reasonably comfortable on FreeBSD as desktop now.
06:56 < kanzure> and previously?
06:56 < kanzure> what were you using?
06:56 < eleitl> Was using Linux mostly, but you know where Linux has been goign in the last 10 years.
06:57 < kanzure> i'm not sure i'm ready for the awesome responsibility of a stable system
06:57 < kanzure> i'll stick with debian for now :-)
06:57 < eleitl> I'm so getting tired of these updates I'll probably move to OpenBSD eventually.
06:58 < kanzure> have you read libressl source code yet?
06:58 < eleitl> I have an old Thinkpad with OpenBSD set up, but graphics isn't working yet, radeondrm issues.
06:58 < kanzure> i mention libressl only because i have lately been pondering about https://github.com/bitcoin/secp256k1/blob/873a453d26b326cc71b3c5ff509058dfe0ce6884/src/tests.c
06:59 < eleitl> No. I trust Theo & Co that they know what they're doing.
06:59 < eleitl> At least more, than the ADHD teenagers do.
06:59 < eleitl> Though *BSD is also somewhat crypto-tarded.
07:04 < eleitl> kanzure, what do you think about running individual servers as ceph nodes across one ISP
07:05 < kanzure> as opposed to what?
07:05 < kanzure> instead of what, i mean
07:06 < eleitl> Instead of having all nodes on one rented rack on the switch. Saves a lot of money and hassle.
07:06 < kanzure> oh. i see.
07:07 < kanzure> well, these days the way to run things is something like amazon glacier + some raid storage in jrayhawk's basement + some rack
07:07 < eleitl> Never having to touch hardware. Never again driving a car full of heavy boxes.
07:07 < kanzure> http://aws.amazon.com/glacier/
07:08 < eleitl> I don't trust my data to cloud vendors.
07:08 < eleitl> Rented hardware and own installed OS is ok.
07:08 < kanzure> i agree that only using cloud vendors is a dumb idea
07:08 < kanzure> and i don't mind if people steal this data; i wish they would, so that it would be better replicated.
07:08 < eleitl> At some point I will rent a rack in the local city, but that's far too expensive.
07:09 < kanzure> jrayhawk would be very happy to host things for you
07:10 < eleitl> He's a person known to you?
07:10 < kanzure> he's a user in this channel
07:11 < kanzure> probably sleeping at the moment
07:11 < eleitl> why not onion lg from his place?
07:12 < kanzure> things are in progress but not stabilized
07:13 < eleitl> http://heybryan.org/shots/setups/jrayhawk/ <--??
07:13 < kanzure> haha yes http://heybryan.org/shots/setups/jrayhawk/IMG_0865.JPG
07:14 < kanzure> (his brother is a singinst minion)
07:14 < eleitl> Looks like a great place to have a fire.
07:15 < kanzure> my understanding is that his hosting business is located elsewhere
07:15 < eleitl> Whew.
07:19 < kanzure> huh looks like greece is gonna implode
07:20 < fenn> about time
07:24 < eleitl> Took them their sweet while.
07:25 < eleitl> Coming next: capital controls across Europe, and the war on cash.
07:25 < eleitl> BTC: to the mooooon!
07:25 < kanzure> eleitl: did you get a good chuckle out of http://greece.greekreporter.com/2015/04/01/yanis-varoufakis-greece-will-adopt-the-bitcoin-if-eurogroup-doesnt-give-us-a-deal/
07:28 < eleitl> Heh.
07:28 < eleitl> You might remember the BTC national currency plan some people we know had.
07:29 < kanzure> dooms day https://github.com/gavinandresen/bitcoinxt/commit/821e223ccc4c8ab967399371761718f1015c766b
07:29 < eleitl> Has it gone nuclear yet?
07:29 < kanzure> went nuclear weeks ago
07:30 < eleitl> No, I mean is this the actual fork that is being deployed now?
07:30 < eleitl> Talk is cheap, but code isn't.
07:30 < kanzure> he has threatened to campaign companies to deploy this fork (or he claims they have already agreed to)
07:30 < fenn> 1TB blocks in 2035 eh
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07:30 < kanzure> "  ... doubling every two years (so 16MB in 2018)"
07:30 < kanzure> this guy is insane
07:30 < eleitl> Is there a way to fire him?
07:30 < fenn> oh wait it's 1GB in 2035 nm
07:31 < kanzure> eleitl: well he has no position, really
07:31 < kanzure> eleitl: all of his power is because people believe him when he claims he was blessed by satoshi forever
07:34 < midnightmagic> sigh
07:34 < midnightmagic> No. No, it hasn't gone nuclear yet.
07:34 < kanzure> his threats were the nukes
07:34 < midnightmagic> Somebody's waiting for a good time I guess.
07:35 < kanzure> this is going nuclear: http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/34155307/
07:35 < kanzure> that's the very definition
07:36 < kanzure> society is not yet accustomed to a decentralized system, so companies are far more likely to say "yep okay let's go with it" without thinking about whether the changes are likely to cause a catastrophic partial hard-fork
07:36 < midnightmagic> No it's not. That's just bluster.
07:36 < kanzure> when you become more popular, you have to weigh your own popularity against what you say, so that you don't cause anyone to think that trusting you is a substitute for running rule validation or something
07:36 < kanzure> neutrality has to be emphasized above all else, because otherwise you risk accidentally hard-forking the network into oblivion by accidentally convincing people that you have any authority whatsoever
07:37 < kanzure> see also http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3aeow8/blockstream_has_a_very_serious_conflict_of/csca13a
07:37 < midnightmagic> He's said a few times now that users don't matter. Like..  you. And you, and whoever reading this. You are users, and you don't matter.
07:37 < kanzure> and http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/37vg8y/is_the_blockstream_company_the_reason_why_4_core/crqnnni
07:38 < kanzure> i don't mind that he thinks that users don't matter, what i care about is whether he's abusing his position to force anything (even if it's a good idea)
07:38 < fenn> "blockstream has a conflict of interest because they want to implement their ideas"
07:38 < fenn> yeah that makes sense, sure
07:39 < eleitl> It seems I'll update my node to the latest sane position, and will wait a long time after that.
07:39 < kanzure> that thread started because the cia.vc person started throwing back accusations on the mailing list or something
07:39 < kanzure> eleitl: waiting is a wise decision
07:41 < kanzure> fenn: in that thread, i posted a comment where i explained that blockstream is not the origin of engineering constraints, and people went absolutely nuts when i posted that :-)
07:41 < eleitl> Is that a sane version still:  213.239.218.20:8333 /Satoshi:0.10.0/ ?
07:41 < kanzure> there's a better version out, but that's probably fine
07:42 < kanzure> as far as i know there's no way to get the wrong blockchain at the moment by running the defaults that come with bitcoin-core
07:43 < fenn> all this insinuation about "conflicts of interest" and "so-and-so is a government agent" looks pretty childish from the outside
07:43 < eleitl> kanzure, how quickly does the client catch up to the latest transactions?
07:43 < fenn> yeah so what, it doesn't matter. only the ideas matter
07:43 < eleitl> I thought that part was supposed to be fixed now, but it's still dead slow.
07:44 < kanzure> eleitl: 0.11 has a faster initial sync, takes maybe 2 hours?
07:44 < kanzure> fenn: yes it's childish; if the nsa wants to suggest good ideas, they are welcome to. but they shouldn't be butthurt when everyone rejects their idea.
07:44 < eleitl> Ok, so 0.10.1.0 in FreeBSD is still not quite fresh.
07:45 < kanzure> fenn: part of what's going on is that there was a media campaign- so what you're seeing is a bunch of programmers trying to respond to user concerns and complaints; and they are upset that these technical wackos have different ideas or explanations.
07:47 < eleitl> This might become a good idea in the coming time, if you have physical gold: http://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2011/10/03/140815154/dissolve-my-nobel-prize-fast-a-true-story
07:48 < fenn> my point is it's not "the NSA" it's just an individual who has a past that is vaguely associated with some intelligence agency, which is not at all surprising for a cryptographer
07:49 < fenn> likewise, it's not at all surprising that some libertarian programmers started a company to advance their ideas
07:53 < eleitl> bbl
07:53 < kanzure> he isn't a cryptographer, and so far nobody has been able to identify his motivations for proposing the ideas that he has (usually ideas that break decentralization) and certain other motivations are a better explanation
07:54 < kanzure> additionally, his argument tactics are the lousy dirty fighting type where he never replies to specific concerns and just makes up accusations to shift the spotlight etc
07:55 < kanzure> even if those allegations you have made were true, his ideas should still be evaluated on their merits and lack of merits
07:56 < fenn> yes i am pretty disappointed with his lack of response to direct questions
07:56 < kanzure> or what about his conflation of forking a git repository and forking the blockchain, heh
07:57 < kanzure> also he likes to claim that bitcoin-core has no process, even though he is repeatedly linked to https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0001.mediawiki
07:58 < fenn> that's just whiny "there's no decisionmaking because you haven't agreed to my decision!" non-logic
08:00 < kanzure> blah http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3aieuj/gavin_andresens_block_size_increase_code_8mb_cap/
08:00 < kanzure> wat "Doubling every two years is conservative compared to historical bandwidth increases "
08:00 < fenn> that's totally wrong
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08:02 < midnightmagic> In Canada, ISPs are actually *reducing* bandwidth, and *charging more* for the same bandwidth plans if you want to stay with your original plans.
08:03 < fenn> oh hmm maybe it does fit nielsen's law
08:03 < fenn> .c 1.5^20
08:03 < yoleaux> 1.5²⁰ = 3325.25673007965087890625
08:04 < fenn> .c 2^10
08:04 < yoleaux> 2¹⁰ = 1024
08:04 < midnightmagic> that's not a superscript zero.
08:04 < midnightmagic> ôoh
08:04 < midnightmagic> maybe it is. nevermind. sorry.
08:04 < kanzure> eternal vigilance
08:11 < kanzure> .wa deoxyribonucleic acid
08:11 < yoleaux> deoxyribonucleic acid bases: Members: adenine: guanine: thymine: cytosine; NFPA label: http://is.gd/ChaI4a
08:11 < kanzure> pfft
08:12 < kanzure> i really hate visualizations of dna like https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/ADN_animation.gif
08:12 < kanzure> this is far better https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/DNA-ligand-by-Abalone.png
08:15 < fenn> i really hate visualizations of dna like http://images.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=dna
08:15 < fenn> at least put some molecules in there ffs
08:15 < kanzure> aaaa you just gave me cancer
08:19 < kanzure> what's worse is that there does not seem to be any good name for the real deal
08:19 < kanzure> "realistic dna" does not produce the results i want
08:19 < kanzure> "dna electrostatic potential" also does not help
08:23 < fenn> space filling model?
08:24 < kanzure> that's a good start, although all the coloration looks wrong
08:24 < kanzure> also i think the individual atoms (i think they are actually the electron orbitals?) should be made translucent
08:25 < fenn> something something molecular orbitals
08:25 < fenn> honestly i'm surprised i don't find this image
08:26 < kanzure> heh surely someone has done a visualization of dna plus orbitals
08:26 < fenn> like this is only one base pair rendered as orbitals https://chemistry.osu.edu/~herbert/images/DNA_orbs.gif
08:26 < kanzure> definitely needs to be transparent. and rotating.
08:26 < fenn> they would look slightly different in a full molecule
08:27 < fenn> because the base pairs interact with each other etc
08:28 < kanzure> "A portion of a DNA-protein complex 1D66 (Marmorstein, 1992) with the DNA van der Waals surface colored by relative orientation of bases" http://www.stolaf.edu/people/hansonr/jmol/jac/jmol/data/straightness.png
08:30 < kanzure> ugh this is what happens when you don't make accurate scientific illustrations https://thinkerbelleblog.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/dna-telepathy.jpg?w=620
08:31 < fenn> awesome
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08:33 < fenn> actual image of dna for reference http://people.ucalgary.ca/~zleonenk/Image8.gif
08:35 < fenn> heraclitus thought all was fire, but now we know better - all is made of string
08:38 < fenn> woah i'm not sure i believe this image is real http://bio.gsi.de/RESEARCH/rastermicro.html
08:42 < fenn> hrm. http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/science/1-dna-imaged-with-electron-microscope-for-the-first-time.jpeg
08:42 < kanzure> "This is a view of knotted DNA as viewed through an electron microscope. (From Wasserman, Dungan, and Cozzarelli, 1985)" http://media.web.britannica.com/eb-media/54/109254-004-A1C93A7D.jpg
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08:43 < fenn> a zoomed in view of http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/science/dn22545-dna-imaged-with-electron-microscope-for-the-first-time.jpeg
08:43 < fenn> the knotted thing is supertwisted around chromatin i think
08:43 < kanzure> that is not zoomed >:(
08:44 < fenn> i hate how they don't actually give a scale on the scale bar
08:44 < fenn> like what is the point of a scale bar then
08:45 < fenn> "the method only works with "cords" of DNA made up of six molecules wrapped around an seventh acting as a core. That's because the electron energies are high enough to break up a single DNA molecule."
08:45 < kanzure> ah....
08:45 < fenn> fuck you ACS
08:46 < fenn> i don't want your stinking cookies
08:46 < kanzure> "Controlling a Single DNA Molecule in an Electric Field by Means of In Situ Atomic Force Microscopy" http://infoscience.epfl.ch/record/184694/files/2012_Jeong_J.%20Electrochem.%20Soc.pdf
08:47 < kanzure> aren't we supposed to have single-atom resolution afm stuff
08:48 < fenn> .title http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/smll.201400265/full
08:48 < yoleaux> Single-Molecule Reconstruction of Oligonucleotide Secondary Structure by Atomic Force Microscopy - Pyne - 2014 - Small - Wiley Online Library
08:48 < fenn> figure 3 is not bad
08:48 < kanzure> pdf http://www.researchgate.net/profile/BW_Hoogenboom/publication/261752009_Single-Molecule_Reconstruction_of_Oligonucleotide_Secondary_Structure_by_Atomic_Force_Microscopy/links/547320000cf24bc8ea19b4b7.pdf
08:51 < kanzure> https://www.london-nano.com/news-and-events/news/lcn-researcher-awarded-2015-wiley-journal-of-molecular-recognition-young
08:54 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KH3B0JTzLHE
08:54 < yoleaux> Getting Started with AFM in Biology -- It's Easier Than You Think - YouTube
08:54 < kanzure> various other videos https://www.asylumresearch.com/Webinars/
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09:37 < eleitl> Whew. Just imported my wallet on FreeBSD, and it worked.
09:37 < kanzure> you may be interested in looking up shamir secret sharding and multisig
09:38 < eleitl> New features?
09:38 < kanzure> multisig was released ~2012 (a feature called pay-to-scripthash or p2sh)
09:39 < kanzure> shamir secret sharding is just a cryptographic magic trick for splitting up a secret into multiple parts, such that you can safely give different shards to people and as long as they don't all collude they wont know the full secret
09:39 < kanzure> (so you would keep a shard for yourself or something)
09:39 < eleitl> So you pay, and publish on the blockchain?
09:40 < kanzure> your wallet is probably using p2pkh outputs (pay-to-pubkeyhash) and for multisig you would just make a transaction to pay to your multisig/p2sh address(es) instead
09:40 < kanzure> anyway, it depends on your security requirements for your wallet file
09:41 < eleitl> Is LibreSSL standard for Bitcoin Core client, or is that a FreeBSD speciality?
09:43 < kanzure> bitcoin-core only works with openssl
09:43 < kanzure> libressl has differences that make it incompatible with bitcoin
09:43 < kanzure> bitcoin-core is attempting to transition to libsecp256k1 (actually i don't know the status; the transition may have already been made?)
09:44 < kanzure> unfortunately bitcoin-core originally came with some consensus-critical code that was depending on openssl
09:44 < kanzure> and openssl on different platforms has different behavior for those function calls :-(
09:44 < kanzure> thus why they are trying to move to libsecp256k1
09:44 < eleitl> Client version: v0.10.1.0-gd8ac901 using LibreSSL 2.1.6
09:45 < eleitl> That's what the client tells me.
09:46 < kanzure> i believe that 0.11 or maybe the bitcoin-core master branch will produce very loud warnings if you are using libressl
09:46 < kanzure> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6244
09:47 < kanzure> however, if the blockchain is getting synced and you see no problems, then *shrug* no harm i guess
09:47 < kanzure> but the moment that you want to start making decisions about what's canonical, whether you have been paid, or whether you have paid others, you should make sure you're using consensus-compatible software
09:48 < kanzure> oh there might be some harm i guess, like "you might be more likely to relay wrong data to other nodes on the network"... hmm.
09:48 < eleitl> I guess I have to start building deterministic builds of my own.
09:48 < kanzure> up to you, at the moment i am not doing deterministic builds for myself
10:07 < eleitl> Haven't used KDE in so many years. It still sucks, but in new ways.
10:51 < kanzure> hmm
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12:20 < kanzure> https://placesjournal.org/article/library-as-infrastructure/
12:20 < kanzure> gah, nothing about how they should be participating in file sharing
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13:24 < CaptHindsight> kanzure: how long are the fragments that you wish to synthesize?
13:27 < kanzure> 1 to 100 million (anything in this range would be great)
13:27 < CaptHindsight> yes, the goal is the whole length in seconds
13:27 < kanzure> amount of time doesn't matter to me
13:27 < kanzure> well it sort of matters
13:27 < CaptHindsight> yeah
13:27 < kanzure> if it takes a week but it works, i don't care
13:28 < kanzure> if it takes a year.. i care somewhat more.
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13:28 < ParahSailin> hows that cambrian company doing
13:29 < kanzure> might be closing down
13:29 < ParahSailin> they didnt even ship the faintly luminescing plant?
13:29 < kanzure> ceo is dead
13:29 < ParahSailin> oh wu
13:30 < ParahSailin> im pretty out of all loops
13:30 < kanzure> https://www.facebook.com/huffmantm/posts/10105111442071011
13:30 < kanzure> http://igem.org/In_Memory_Of_Austen
13:30 < ParahSailin> they really need to make bike lanes
13:30 < ParahSailin> our peeps are dropping like flies
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13:36 -!- Topic for ##hplusroadmap: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | sponsored by lobsters everywhere, banned by the Federal Death Administration (5 times) | this channel is LOGGED: http://gnusha.org/logs | http://diyhpl.us/wiki | "ray kurzweil is a pessimist" - george church
13:36 -!- Topic set by kanzure [~kanzure@unaffiliated/kanzure] [Wed May 20 12:46:25 2015]
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13:36 < CaptHindsight> sure
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13:37 < CaptHindsight> linker = points of attachment
13:37 < kanzure> in biology land this is often called "solid support"
13:37 < CaptHindsight> I didn't realize how crudely this is being done
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13:38 < CaptHindsight> I'm picking up the vernacular  :)
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13:42 < CaptHindsight> we need a fast single molecule printer
13:43 < kanzure> single molecule manipulation is not easy to implement
13:43 < CaptHindsight> easy and hard is relative
13:44 < CaptHindsight> my kids used to ask me if something was hard or easy to do....
13:44 < kanzure> i believe we have been able to isolate single proteins with lasers (optical traps)
13:44 < kanzure> so what's your plan then?
13:44 < CaptHindsight> my answer was generally for me of for you
13:44 < kanzure> your answer should have been, "you're an idiot and should stop assessing problems like that"
13:45 < kanzure> "instead your assessment method should be x"
13:45 < CaptHindsight> it got the same point across
13:45 < kanzure> CaptHindsight: have you seen https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer
13:46 < CaptHindsight> nice
13:46 < CaptHindsight> I recall the animations
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13:48 < CaptHindsight> kanzure: maybe we'll have to build/write the post processor for nano-G-code
13:49 < CaptHindsight> who is working on this and are they making anything public? (single molecule manipulators and printers)
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13:51 < kanzure> the enzymaticsynthesis mailing list also spent some time talking about "single-nucleotide guns" to blast nucleotides towards dna molecules (well not dna but various oligo types)
13:51 < kanzure> (i believe nzm787 was the one who came up with the "nucleotide gun" terminology)
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13:51 < kanzure> i have also often wanted some sort of circular rotaring disk with atomically-sharp tips that would be able to rotate the right components into place. however, constructing the correct tips is an extremely hard task.
13:51 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/nanotech/Optimal%20Tooltip%20Trajectories%20in%20a%20Hydrogen%20Abstraction%20Tool%20Recharge%20Reaction%20Sequence%20for%20Positionally%20Controlled%20Diamond%20Mechanosynthesis.pdf
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13:52 < CaptHindsight> DNA glue gun
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14:00 < CaptHindsight> kanzure: as far as an inkjet printer goes, Epson has some models that hold a cd tray
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14:01 < CaptHindsight> we could hack the controller for multipass printing
14:01 < kanzure> there are enzymes that essentially do that already
14:01 < kanzure> at least the gluing part
14:01 < kanzure> really what we need is an optically or electrically responsive polymerase that chooses nucleotides based on whatever signal it is given
14:01 < kanzure> but so far nobody knows how to do rational engineering of proteins to that extent, and directed evolution of that sort of enzyme requires a lot of intermediate work a few million times over (so would probably require microfluidic chips etc etc... lots and lots of equipment)
14:01 < kanzure> i am far more optimistic about oligonucleotide and phosphoramidite chemistry
14:02 < kanzure> couldn't we just get one with an sdk instead
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14:02 < CaptHindsight> Epson Stylus Photo 1400  for example
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14:03 < CaptHindsight> the next step above that is to make a stage with an Epson head similar to the Posam only with Linuxcnc for control
14:04 < kanzure> head should probably stay put, move stage under
14:04 < kanzure> (but i don't care)
14:04 < CaptHindsight> if someone wants to use a *duino or poopieboard for control they can knock themselves out doing so
14:04 < kanzure> no thanks
14:04 < kanzure> i'd take linuxcnc over poopduino
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14:05 < CaptHindsight> PC with LPT and stepper drivers
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14:06 < CaptHindsight> my other concern is how the fluid behaves in the printheads, does it settle, how often do they need to be flushed etc
14:06 < kanzure> ParahSailin: do people just use micropipettors to get samples out of each well? like on a picotiter plate.
14:06 < kanzure> CaptHindsight: well there's a flush/wash step after each chemical i think
14:09 < CaptHindsight> can the ACTG ink hold up to thermal inkjet?
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14:10 < kanzure> these things are quite finikey; i wouldn't want to vary from the protocol that posam used.
14:11 < kanzure> even slight variations in equipment, temperature, chemistry, or other variables might cause complete catastrophic failure in the whole thing
14:11 < kanzure> (so getting good at debugging is quite helpful, heh)
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14:12 < kanzure> btw i think we're going to need a micropipettor on a stage as well
14:12 < kanzure> to collect each bead from each well :-/
14:13 < CaptHindsight> it can be on the same stage
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14:13 < kanzure> sure
14:14 < kanzure> i think that the church lab had to use some cameras to help guide their micropipettor into each well for some reason? i can't remember why. maybe it was related to detecting whether the bead was collected or not.
14:14 < CaptHindsight> next to the head or the head can be swapped
14:14 < kanzure> yea should be next to it
14:14 < CaptHindsight> not a problem
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14:15 < kanzure> if you don't care about contamination between pores, you don't have to switch out pipette tips either
14:15 < CaptHindsight> openCV for all the imaging
14:15 < kanzure> otherwise you have to replace pipette tips after every step or something https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uXtQLaaYsc&t=10s
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14:16 < CaptHindsight> I've even used the 0.5um I.D. orifice pipette tips for deposition
14:16 < CaptHindsight> cheap and consistent
14:17 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC-FonGglEM
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14:19 < midnightmagic> and by a simple glare, did the Deep One cause a rending in IRC reality.
14:19 < CaptHindsight> it's easy enough to make an automated pipette tip changer, but manual change is probably enough
14:20 < kanzure> "The Epson™ F057020 print head (available from Agson Electronics, Cherry Hill, NJ) print head is uniquely suited to inkjet microarraying. It contains six fluid channels that can hold the four standard monomers, the catalyst, and still accept a modified monomer, monomer mixture, or preformed linker. It contains 192 total nozzles. The droplet size quoted by the manufacturer is a mere 6 pL. Droplet size varies with viscosity and surface ...
14:20 < kanzure> ... tension, and consequently temperature, but based on solvent consumption for the work described here, our droplet sizes are closer to 10 pL. The newer Epson print heads actually have more nozzles that squirt smaller volumes (4 pL). More nozzles can result in faster synthesis. These tiny droplet volumes (4-10 pL) enable high spot densities and make consumption of reagents hard to measure, but that keeps the costs down. "
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14:20 < yoleaux> Opentrons : Pick & Place - YouTube
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14:20 < kanzure> CaptHindsight: some use of pipette tips require manual change after each transportation task (e.g., load liquid, move, dispense liquid, get new tip)
14:21 < CaptHindsight> ok, then it should be automated
14:21 < kanzure> thermal print head can't be used here according to the documentation
14:21 < kanzure> ( http://bioinformatics.org/pogo/POSAM_Man_Ch1_Assembly_v1-2_040601.pdf )
14:21 < kanzure> (page 6)
14:23 < CaptHindsight> what is the solvent used for the AGTC vehicles?
14:24 < CaptHindsight> have a link to the supplier?
14:25 < CaptHindsight> must be water free
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14:32 < kanzure_> ah there is an update, http://techdev.systemsbiology.net/posam/POSAM_Man_Ch1_Assembly_v1-4_050511.pdf
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14:34 < kanzure_> 192 nozzles. hm.
14:34 < CaptHindsight> wow some of the drawing are 15 years old
14:34 < CaptHindsight> just think how much of this tech would be farther along if more people were working on this
14:36 < kanzure_> hm that group also does microfluidics foundry stuff http://corefacilities.systemsbiology.net/fabrication
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14:56 < CaptHindsight> the DNA "laser printer" is an intermediate step, the molecular printer is what we really need
14:56 < CaptHindsight> metals are easy
14:56 < kanzure> can you describe your implementation idea?
14:57 < CaptHindsight> I'm pondering
14:57 < CaptHindsight> still looking at what is already out there
15:00 < CaptHindsight> it would cross over into building a replicator or transporter
15:00 < CaptHindsight> so pretty widespread applications
15:01 < CaptHindsight> but the inkjet is straightforward and simple
15:02 < CaptHindsight> I wonder if anyone made an open Epson head controller yet
15:03 < CaptHindsight> we could use a Mesa FPGA card for that with some additional analog for driving the head
15:05 < CaptHindsight> http://store.mesanet.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=83_85&product_id=67
15:05 < CaptHindsight> or their ethernet FPGA card
15:06 < CaptHindsight> http://store.mesanet.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=83_85&product_id=291
15:06 < CaptHindsight> Price: US$59.00
15:07 < kanzure> i'm not worried about motion control, mesa cards are fine everyone has worked with them before
15:09 < CaptHindsight> the FPGA would also drive the printhead
15:10 < CaptHindsight> along with some additional analog circuitry
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15:30 < kanzure> CaptHindsight: yep
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15:50 < CaptHindsight> http://www.glenresearch.com/Catalog/ultramild.php#p20  they don't mention the vehicle
15:51 < CaptHindsight> http://www.glenresearch.com/Catalog/abi.php#p6
15:52 < kanzure> .title
15:52 < yoleaux> ABI DNA Synthesizer | Monomers | Supports | Columns | Glen Research
15:52 < kanzure> i think if we purchase anything it should be from azco biotech
15:52 < kanzure> first reason is because azco biotech does lots of dna synthesizer equipment stuff plus reagents
15:52 < kanzure> another reason is that they have been friendly on the diybio mailing list before- so they are at least okay with talking with people who aren't employed by an academic institution
15:53 < kanzure> and finally, the dude i bought the abi 391 from, apparently had been working with azco biotech to get his phosphoramidites etc
15:53 < CaptHindsight> heh
15:54 < CaptHindsight> apparently the printheads last for a few months
15:55 < CaptHindsight> 3 month swap for preventative maintenance
15:55 < CaptHindsight> not sure if they used it 24/7
15:56 < CaptHindsight> " When acetonitrile is used as the solvent, 200 ppm water will reduce coupling efficiency 50% (Brown and Brown,
15:56 < CaptHindsight> 1991). Enclosing the working area just above the microarray slides with the smallest possible volume would greatly improve the purity during the coupling step. "
15:57 < kanzure> i doubt they used it 24/7--- at minimum they have to do all that pumping before/after use to replace the atmosphere, and can't be used during that
15:58 < kanzure> perhaps there's a way to avoid losing atmosphere when replacing the slides with fresh slides?
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15:58 < kanzure> you could have a retractable cover that goes over the bottom of the enclosure, then you remove the slides underneath, maximum gas loss is from much smaller volume
16:04 < jrayhawk_> eleitl: if you have a particularly good usecase for a system with multiple xeon phis, let me know. i built one for the local university but there's been near-zero pressure to actually get it deployed.
16:05 < kanzure> how sad
16:05 < jrayhawk_> they would, in principle, like to run interesting research projects on it
16:08 < CaptHindsight> the entire printhead needs to be in the chamber since the printhead relies on a slight negative pressure to operate
16:09 < CaptHindsight> or the fluid won't jet or just run out of the nozzles
16:10 < CaptHindsight> the slides could go through an airlock
16:11 < kanzure> airlock would probably be faster
16:11 < kanzure> would be interesting to have that automated too (if it's cheap/easy/not a catastrophe)
16:11 < kanzure> probably a stack of slides that slide off inside
16:11 < kanzure> or a slide pick-n-placer
16:11 < CaptHindsight> just some valves, actuator and another drive system
16:11 < CaptHindsight> that to
16:11 < kanzure> well anyway-- it might speed things up, as long as they can be stored efficiently
16:12 < CaptHindsight> stack of slides for the day/hours
16:12 < kanzure> right
16:12 < kanzure> or not slides, i guess it's the pore things
16:12 < CaptHindsight> sample tray
16:12 < CaptHindsight> build tray
16:13 < kanzure> nah just use ambiguous terminology like everyone else, "the workpiece"
16:13 < kanzure> :-/
16:14 < CaptHindsight> nucleotide collector array
16:14 < kanzure> nah, your trays are fine
16:19 < CaptHindsight> stack of trays or a big rotary table with multiple trays?
16:20 < CaptHindsight> https://youtu.be/WKCSVIGmlFo?t=17s
16:20 < kanzure> i think that only depends on ohw much room is available, and how the trays get stored
16:21 < CaptHindsight> or belt drive for samples and airlock
16:21 < kanzure> yea but where do they go once out of the airlock
16:22 < CaptHindsight> verification and sorting good/bad
16:23 < kanzure> if it requires human intervention then that's a bottleneck and you might as well not have multiple slides inside plus the airlock; you'll never be able to use the automatic slide placer because slides are going to be still in the airlock.
16:24 < CaptHindsight> nitrogen filled slide cassette
16:25 < CaptHindsight> what is the next device that the trays are off to?
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16:26 < kanzure> well, the beads need to be collected and some of them are placed into the same reaction chamber (some other pore, usually larger) for polymerase chain reaction (pcr) or gibson assembly
16:27 < CaptHindsight> well you have to plan out the entire production line and see what makes sense
16:28 < kanzure> .wik gibson assembly
16:28 < yoleaux> "Gibson assembly is a DNA assembly method which allows for the joining of multiple DNA fragments in a single, isothermal reaction. It was invented in 2009 by Daniel Gibson while he was at the J. Craig Venter Institute (JCVI)." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibson_assembly
16:29 < kanzure> this was originally used for >100 kbp molecule synthesis
16:29 < kanzure> most interesting proteins are 1 kbp to 50 kbp, the extra space is useful for specifying other proteins at the same time
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16:30 < kanzure> i think the median or average protein dna length is ~1.5 kbp
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16:32 < kanzure> green fluorescent protein (gfp) is about ~700 bp
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16:46 < CaptHindsight> kanzure: I saw the chart. That machine must have pipettes that transfer oligos from the printer sample tray to the gibson tray
16:47 < CaptHindsight> cnc eyedropper and enzyme dispenser with heater
16:47 < kanzure> maybe not- perhaps you could flip the tray fast enough to transfer it by gravity.
16:47 < kanzure> or surface tension could keep the beads inside each pore
16:47 < CaptHindsight> for parallel assembly
16:48 < CaptHindsight> we were doing similar with 1 liter bags of fragments
16:48 < kanzure> describe?
16:49 < CaptHindsight> a gantry robot that would place bags of oligos in different temp baths
16:49 < kanzure> oh, what for?
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16:51 < CaptHindsight> break down DNA strands...
16:52 < CaptHindsight> or for combining strands
16:52 < kanzure> was this something we discussed?
16:52 < kanzure> bags?
16:52 < CaptHindsight> no, I'm under NDA for the exact application
16:52 < CaptHindsight> but it's not rocket science
16:52 < CaptHindsight> i just built the machines
16:53 < CaptHindsight> they would also perform manual operations between automated steps
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16:53 < CaptHindsight> they aren't fully automated yet
16:54 < CaptHindsight> if all the trays have the same oligos then yeah you could just dump the whole tray
16:54 < CaptHindsight> I was thinking that a single tray would have multiple different oligos
16:55 < CaptHindsight> and you might want to combine different oligos at different times
16:56 < CaptHindsight> don't we have to QC each oligo before assembling?
16:56 < CaptHindsight> only combine known good oligos and strands?
16:56 < kanzure> ah didn't understand that you mean previous work you did
16:57 < kanzure> when i said dump i mean if you flip it fast enough i think you could line up the pores (upside down) to where you want gravity to take the payload
16:57 < CaptHindsight> how about sending me a flow chart of the whole operation
16:58 < kanzure> does it have to be visual? i'm really not good at that, i am better with text
16:58 < CaptHindsight> I follow you, we are just looking at the sample tray differently
16:59 < kanzure> flipping/spinning was just a silly idea heh (only because if it works, it would be far faster than pipetting to get it to the gibson tray)
16:59 < CaptHindsight> if the samples are arranged on the tray with a mirror of what they will get dumped into then you could flip the tray
16:59 < kanzure> well i think the destination has larger pores, but they align correctly or something (you would choose pore assignments based on this)
17:00 < kanzure> (has larger pores because you are combining multiple strands)
17:00 < kanzure> but yes you're right that dna sequencing (reading) or quality control should be some step in this, in an ideal world
17:00 < CaptHindsight> so to decide on how the printer should operate also depends on what machine the samples go to next
17:00 < kanzure> nmz787 had some method based on shining a light on the sample to determine whether the strand is near the correct mass... i forget the details of his technique.
17:01 < CaptHindsight> so a flow chart is probably the next step
17:01 < kanzure> do you have an example flow chart you have done work from in the past? possibly one you could share privately with me
17:02 < CaptHindsight> the sample trays can be designed to make this easy
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17:03 < CaptHindsight> so far we have inkjet printer ---> Gibson assembler
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17:03 < CaptHindsight> but it looks like all the steps haven't been all thought out
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17:05 < CaptHindsight> printer ---> QC with light measurement ---> Gibson assembler
17:05 < kanzure> no, i also mentioned pcr (polymerase chain reaction)
17:05 < kanzure> quality control might have to be dna sequencing or mass spec or spectrophotometry
17:06 < kanzure> after gibson assembly you'd probably want to do polymerase chain reaction again
17:06 < CaptHindsight> try to standardize the trays to work at each step
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17:07 < CaptHindsight> sounds like we have an assembly line to design
17:07 < kanzure> eventually you need to get an ecoli culture going where you insert the plasmid or gene into the cells, then visually identify whether gfp has been expressed
17:07 < kanzure> well, it depends on which parts you want to automate
17:07 < kanzure> dna synthesis is the most important
17:08 < kanzure> i think the posam people were only using their machine for dna hybridization reasons.. so they didn't have much for downstream processing..
17:09 < CaptHindsight> looks like you can build the whole assembly line for <$10k
17:09 < kanzure> probably
17:11 < CaptHindsight> they spent $20k on motion components
17:12 < CaptHindsight> but it was off the shelf and plug and play
17:12 < kanzure> hehe
17:13 < CaptHindsight> parker positioners, servos and drives
17:13 < CaptHindsight> nice but pricey new
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17:14 < CaptHindsight> I find them on ebay for 1/4 the price in great condition
17:14 < kanzure> that makes repeatability really hard- how are others going to make the same equipment in the future? just hope and pray that someone puts up similar equipment on ebay?
17:15 < kanzure> besides, i can afford $20k if necessary
17:15 < CaptHindsight> we can design our own
17:15 < kanzure> motion controllers? good point
17:16 < CaptHindsight> the electronics are all off the shelf, Mesa FPGA, a PC etc LPT port card, stepper drivers
17:16 < CaptHindsight> the analog to the printheads needs to be built
17:16 < kanzure> some of the valve switches looked pricey. haven't thought about making those.
17:17 < CaptHindsight> the stages can be timing belts, steppers and linear bearings
17:18 < CaptHindsight> those might have been chosen based on what catalog their procurement manager had
17:18 < CaptHindsight> but we can shop around
17:18 < kanzure> have you seen transcriptic's molecular biology assembly line?
17:18 < kanzure> http://avideos.5min.com/134/5187134/518713362_4.mp4
17:19 < kanzure> it's just a long linear assembly line basically
17:19 < kanzure> and the actuation slides along the length of the enclosure
17:21 < CaptHindsight> <-- watching video
17:22 < CaptHindsight> yeah line and you can put loops in it
17:22 < CaptHindsight> for recursive operations
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17:33 < CaptHindsight> heh systemd malware issue, back
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17:41 < kanzure> i have uploaded that video to youtube for safekeeping https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49X7nDBgaPc
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17:50 < delinquentme> +1 kanzure
17:50 < delinquentme> https://github.com/transcriptic
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17:53 < kanzure> CaptHindsight: if you can send me an example flowchart, that would help. ideally one that you have actually found useful in the past.
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17:59 < maaku_> wow they've come quite a way
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18:01 < kanzure> greetings maaku
18:01 < maaku> cheers
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18:46 < kanzure> https://medium.com/bitcoin-think/killing-the-dragon-named-bitcoin-is-money-b6dce5b86535
19:10 < kanzure> CaptHindsight: hmm so if you are synthesizing 10,000 different variations of a 10 kbp gene (say for some protein), you may not want to introduce all strands simultaneously into cells in the same petri dish. so if cell culture automation is included in the design scope (which i think is a mistake- scope should be kept small), then it should be decided upfront whether the projects should be restricted to only those that are suitable for ...
19:10 < kanzure> ... inserting all dna variations into the same petri dish (same batch of cells).
19:12 < kanzure> otherwise if you need 10k different cell cultures then your only practical option is bubble-based containment of cells in a microfluidic device. unless you have lots and lots of lab/facility space.
19:13 < kanzure> and if you are making microfluidic devices then you might as well instead do some variation of http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/synthesis/Synthesis%20-%20Microfluidic%20PicoArray%20synthesis%20of%20oligodeoxynucleotides%20and%20simultaneous%20assembling%20of%20multiple%20DNA%20sequences%20(10%20kb).pdf
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19:15 < kanzure> actually that's not true. large-scale petri dish management may not be so bad.....
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20:19 < CaptHindsight> kanzure: you just make a modular system
20:19 < CaptHindsight> similar to whats in the video
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20:20 < CaptHindsight> and try to standardize the size of whatever makes sense
20:20 < CaptHindsight> sample trays, dishes, whatever travels from station to station
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21:05 < kanzure> yep
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--- Log closed Sun Jun 21 00:00:28 2015