--- Log opened Thu Jun 25 00:00:05 2015
--- Day changed Thu Jun 25 2015
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03:15 < archels> I see that new DNA sythesis project is coming along nicely ##hplusroadmap  https://www.flickr.com/photos/saschapohflepp/17430890865/in/photostream/
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03:39 < xrr> archels: cute plant! Can you explain to the uneducated me how it's related to DNA synthesis?
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04:11 < eleitl> Mike can't access lg for some reason. Any ideas?
04:12 < chris_99> Anyone know of any OSS alternatives to Travis CI per chance? (i just posted this on HN https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9777033 asking about one)
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04:28 < streety> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_continuous_integration_software has a list of different options. I haven't used any of them but the options I have heard about previously are Jenkins, Tox, Buildbot, and CruiseControl
04:28 < streety> Jenkins being the option that seems to be most widely used
04:30 < chris_99> cheers, i'm just trying to figure out if Jenkins can work with Rust, it's not immediately obvious unfortunately
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04:53 < eleitl> kanzure, check your mail when you get to it
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05:23 < eleitl> Hail eudoxia.
05:23 < eudoxia> hey eleitl what's up
05:24 < eleitl> Mike has trouble accessing lg. Access been blocked for a week.
05:25 < eleitl> does gen lib rus ec work on your end?
05:28 < eudoxia> yep
05:29 < eudoxia> he should try it over tor and download over bookzz.org
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05:46 < eleitl> Tor gives him timeouts.
05:50 < eudoxia> hmm
05:50 < eudoxia> he's in rural arizona no?
05:57 < eleitl> Either SoCal or Az. Don't know where he is at the moment.
05:57 < eleitl> If his home is a total loss he'll be likely SoCal.
06:01 < eudoxia> that would be a damned shame
06:02 < eudoxia> he seemed to have a pretty nice kinda sustainable setup going
06:02 < eleitl> This is the reason why I don't like wood.
06:02 < eleitl> Especially, wood + propane.
06:03 < eleitl> People in AZ should live underground anyway.
06:03 < eudoxia> heh
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06:42 < kanzure> what the shit is wrong with you people, don't recommend jenkins to someone gah
06:42 < kanzure> chris_99: gitlab-ci
06:44 < chris_99> haha
06:44 < chris_99> let me check that cheers
06:45 < kanzure> jenkins is often regarded as a soul sucking monstrosity that will take at least 4 years of your life away from you
06:48 < eudoxia> i like travis but it's kinda slow
06:50 < eleitl> kanzure, please check your mail
06:50 < eleitl> Oh, right, forget that.
06:51 < kanzure> way ahead of you
06:51 < chris_99> i found travis uses a very old version of linux
06:51 < chris_99> and also doesn't support windows
06:52 < eleitl> Why is Jenkins so bad? People here use it.
06:52 < kanzure> at this point i think gitlab-ci looks like the most possibly-maintainable
06:52 < kanzure> eleitl: it's like poking yourself with a hot stick in the eye, if you are responsible for developing on jenkins or configuring it
06:52 < kanzure> eleitl: as for *using* it, it's not so bad as a user or developer that just pushes code or whatever
06:53 < eleitl> Ok, I'm not running it, the devs don't complain.
06:53 < kanzure> you're configuring it?
06:56 < chris_99> it shouldn't be hard to use gitlab-ci to build rust programs right?
06:56 < eleitl> I might have to deal with Jenkins later, but right now one dev is in charge, and it seems to be working.
06:59 < eleitl> http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0127502 <- The Oligopoly of Academic Publishers in the Digital Era
07:06 < kanzure> chris_99: my suggestion is to have a script that builds your program, and then just call the script in any continuous integration environment
07:07 < chris_99> gotcha
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07:34 < kanzure> optical character recognition suggestions https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9775753
07:35 < eudoxia> the best solution i've found so far is to just upload the images to google drive and use their OCR :/
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07:53 < eudoxia> kanzure: what main noot did you use again? adderall?
07:53 < kanzure> yes
07:54 < eleitl> It worked for Erdos.
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07:55 < eudoxia> yes we were just discussing him actually
07:57 < kanzure> it's weird that the drug made him publish more papers; wouldn't results be more important than academic publications.
07:58 < kanzure> oh wait, no it was just his collaborators that probably wrote up the stuff into papers
07:58 < eudoxia> maybe he was just a productive writer
07:59 < kanzure> there's more to math than just writing papers
07:59 < eudoxia> certainly
07:59  * eudoxia has no idea what mathematicians do
07:59 < kanzure> "Specific retrograde transduction of spinal motor neurons using lentiviral vectors targeted to presynaptic NMJ receptors" http://www.nature.com/mt/journal/v22/n7/abs/mt201449a.html
07:59 < kanzure> we should do more of this
07:59 < eleitl> Have the feds bothered you yet?
08:00 < kanzure> a long time ago, i buddied up with them
08:01 < kanzure> provided them with lots of transcripts and then they sort of went away when they realized they didn't care
08:01 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/fbi-diybio-2011/
08:01 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/fbi-diybio-2012
08:01 < JayDugger> Thank you for posting that OCR link.
08:01 < eleitl> Maybe you got whitelisted.
08:01 < eleitl> Hi JayDugger.
08:01 < kanzure> JayDugger: why is your jet fighter using ocr?
08:03 < JayDugger> So that the autopilot can actually read the fine manual, placing it another notch above human pilots.
08:03 < eleitl> We process plenty of text and chemical structures. Patents and all kinds of publications. Hundreds of millions of pages.
08:03 < eleitl> Batches run for months.
08:04 < kanzure> eleitl: btw, the user "dingo" in here once did lots of work for jstor (including lots of xml stuff)
08:04 < eleitl> Workflows is with KNIME.
08:05 < eudoxia> on that note, do any of you folks have OCR recommendations? my attempts so far have been mostly like this: https://twitter.com/eudxa/status/606206071271788544
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08:05 < eleitl> If you're blurry, you need to prefilter.
08:05 < kanzure> usually you have to train on your data set
08:05 < kanzure> consider using tesseract-ocr
08:05 < eudoxia> yes, i tried to sharpen it a little but it didn't improve the quality
08:06 < eleitl> It might require quite a lot of fiddling. And the OCR must be trained on the font.
08:06 < eudoxia> google's OCR is usually good enough but requires some manual intervention
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08:06 < eleitl> By way of uploading it to Google Drive?
08:06 < kanzure> .g deeply recurrent ocr neural whatever
08:06 < yoleaux> http://www.idsia.ch/~juergen/vision.html
08:06 < eleitl> Can you batch that, or does Google kick you out if you abuse it?
08:07 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9584325
08:07 < yoleaux> The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Recurrent Neural Networks | Hacker News
08:07 < kanzure> http://karpathy.github.io/2015/05/21/rnn-effectiveness/
08:07 < eleitl> Schmidhuber chronically sounds like a crank to me.
08:08 < eudoxia> eleitl: i made every page a separate .jpg, then configured google drive to convert image uploads to documents with OCR, and uploaded the whole folder. the result was a huge gdrive folder of documents with the image and the extracted text.
08:08 < eleitl> He must be good, but something about him sounds off.
08:08 < eleitl> eudoxia, quality was good?
08:09 < eleitl> I should tell that trick our OCR guy. We're running three commercial OCR packages, and fusing the results.
08:10 < eudoxia> eleitl: mostly good, with errors being mostly repetitive, ie missing dashes, 'throttle' being parsed as 'tottle' or something like that
08:12 < eudoxia> eleitl: also, you can download a whole folder as text files, which means you get the OCR'd text only
08:13 < eudoxia> i imagine with some kind of automation (selenium or phantomjs) it would be possible to automate it
08:14 < fenn> a fun little tour of how OCRopus works http://www.danvk.org/2015/01/09/extracting-text-from-an-image-using-ocropus.html http://www.danvk.org/2015/01/11/training-an-ocropus-ocr-model.html
08:17 < JayDugger> eudoxia, what resolution did your source images have?
08:17 < eleitl> Just talked to the OCR guy. We haven'
08:17 < eleitl> t done any processing in a couple years. The last big batch was Zentralblatt.
08:17 < eudoxia> JayDugger: 1000x1298
08:18 < JayDugger> Did you try other image sizes, and did that make a difference?
08:18 < kanzure> eudoxia: instead of phantomjs just use webkit with python bindings or whatever. (although to be fair i haven't got this webkit setup to work for javascript<->python interop into each page... something about them changing the api on me.)
08:19 < eleitl> Is suricata better than snort?
08:19 < eudoxia> JayDugger: no
08:19 < eudoxia> JayDugger: the images were only available in 'small', 'medium' and 'large' (what i used) which i suspect is just an enlarged version of medium
08:21 < eleitl> What's the project, JayDugger?
08:22 < kanzure> he makes secret stealth jet fighters and drones
08:22 < JayDugger> I have some scans of books I got via Inter-Library Loan, mostly children's books I read.
08:22 < eleitl> It would be interesting to have drones with face recognition. For science.
08:23 < eleitl> A smartphone should be able to do it.
08:23 < JayDugger> I've not gone to the trouble of getting them OCR'd, because my usual method involves putting them in an envelope and mailing them to 1dollarscan.com.
08:23 < JayDugger> Yeah, photographing them takes the least effort.
08:23 < fenn> isn't that a destructive scan?
08:24 < eleitl> No, I meant how much crunch for face recognition.
08:24 < JayDugger> Sorry, that was a poor use of pronouns. I mean mail them to 1dollarscan for destructive scanning, yes.
08:24 < JayDugger> Which I can't very well do with Inter-Library Loan books.
08:27 < JayDugger> There exist two non-destructive scan shops I know of, but they both cost more. One of them in CA looks like a tax-shelter in business clothes, and the other has a weird clause about reserving the right to refuse to scan any material at all after they receive it.
08:27 < JayDugger> Reviews of the latter suggest that they won't scan romance novels with explicit sex scenes, for example.
08:28 < eleitl> Puritan OCR.
08:28 < JayDugger> I hadn't heard of that software package, but perhaps it was trained on the wrong kind of corpus.
08:29 < JayDugger> I can imagine someone sending in a stack of back issues of Playboy, because, you know--they only read it for the articles.
08:29 < JayDugger> Like USENET.
08:30 < eleitl> I've never downloaded a binary from Usenet.
08:31 < eleitl> Seems there is no significant preference for suricata vs snort.
08:32 < eleitl> I think I need to make a fair impersonation of Mordac.
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08:37 < eleitl> Reading Dilbert from 1997 makes me feel old.
08:38 < kanzure> you are old
08:38 < kanzure> i meant: you *are* old
08:38 < eleitl> Half a century isn't old.
08:39 < eleitl> I wonder where the last 15 years have gone, though.
08:39 < kanzure> well at least 15% of it has gone to reading email
08:39 < fenn> this is why i started keeping logs, so at least i could answer that question
08:40 < eleitl> I only delete the spam now. Don't bother with reading the rest.
08:41 < fenn> train an LSTM to filter out drama and stupidity at email-thread-scale
08:43 < kanzure> you should show him your old logs
08:45 < fenn> turns out most of my life is spent sleeping http://fennetic.net/sleep/
08:46 < fenn> this is what the raw data looks like http://fennetic.net/sleep/test.txt
08:48 < eleitl> Sleep is good.
08:50 < kanzure> typo predicitons
08:51 < archels> fascinating precession in the sleeping pattern
08:51 < archels> is that intentional?
08:51 < fenn> no
08:51 < fenn> in fact, it's unavoidable
08:52 < fenn> i first figured out what was happening when i stumbled across http://www.supermemo.com/help/sleep.htm
08:54 < kanzure> http://xkcd.com/1524/
08:54 < fenn> or at least i knew what magic keyword to call it ("non-24")
08:55 < eleitl> brb firewall upgrade
09:03 < kanzure> "For instance having made the DNA for say 10% of all plant on the planet surface sounds like a reasonable goal."
09:03 < archels> ah I see
09:07 < archels> are you tracking any experiments with sleep?
09:08 < archels> varying one parameter and seeing if it has a causal influence over sleep
09:10 < fenn> that was the original idea, but i mostly just keep data now for its own sake
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09:14 < wrldpc1> https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/blue-ball-of-karpeles.png
09:15 < wrldpc1> Poverty of biologists in Osaka.  None come to the Transhumanist meet.  Chemical engineers, semiconductor engineers - no biologists.  Need to do some recruiting.
09:15 < wrldpc1> We spent half the meeting attempting to define intelligence.
09:15 < fenn> time to lay down some ground rules then :P
09:30 < kanzure> you should take a page out of my book and claim that intelligence isn't a useful concept
09:30 < kanzure> and also, it may be useful to have a more project-oriented approach so that you don't waste time trying to write dictionaries
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09:34 < kanzure> another approach is that you could bring in biologists to lecture to the group
09:34 < kanzure> e.g. just pay for someone to come in and lecture about microbiology stuff
09:35 < eleitl> How well is transhumanism doing in Japan in general?
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09:41 < kanzure> fenn: did you consider my antibody staining response from yesterday?
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09:46 < eleitl> byes, see you tomorrow
09:47 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9775788
09:47 < yoleaux> How mosquitos deal with getting hit by raindrops | Hacker News
09:48 < kanzure> "This is slightly misleading - strength actually changes as the square of the dimension or the cube of the dimension, depending on which strength you're talking about. Axial (tension, compression) and shear strength are derived from net area and so scale with by x^2. Flexural strength is derived from a factored second moment of inertia which happens to work out to x^3."
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10:07 < kanzure> russia has blocked the internet archive?
10:08 < kanzure> ah nevermind
10:22 < fenn> i don't think you can stain for diffusible small molecules?
10:23 < kanzure> well even if you could
10:23 < kanzure> (and you can- if you have the right antibody)
10:24 < kanzure> if you already knew which small molecules to use then you wouldn't need to run microbe mutation iterations
10:27 < kanzure> thus my comparison to the alternative of microbes in the brain- you can at least physically look at sliced tissue and find where the microbes went, and then determine whether you want to use those critters.
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12:02 < kanzure> using that microbial nootropics method, you could probably make some really really nasty truth serum
12:02 < kanzure> like behavior on the order of "compulsive secret telling"
12:06 < kanzure> programmed apoptosis triggers (what were the igem people calling this?) would also be useful, especially if it could be something as simple as "put your head in a strong magnetic field"- which could be used in combination with neuroimaging to find a mutant strain that migrates to where you want in the human brain, without making the microbes permanent
12:07 < kanzure> (although i'm not going to claim that i know how to do neuroimaging to find small microbes or single cells. perhaps they would carry something that would make their identification easier.... hm.)
12:09 < fenn> apoptosis is not something that happens in bacteria
12:09 < fenn> magnetic nanoparticles are a good MRI contrast agent though
12:10 < fenn> what was the name of that MRI-contrast protein? (did i make that memory up?)
12:11 < fenn> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/MagA%20is%20sufficient%20for%20producing%20magnetic%20nanoparticles%20in%20mammalian%20cells,%20making%20it%20an%20MRI%20reporter.pdf
12:13 < kanzure> whoops "contrast agent" is the term i should have used, yeah
12:13 < fenn> "bacterial magnetosomes"
12:13 < kanzure> there's many "programmed cell death" mechanisms that have been championed by igem teams and other people, even for bacterial chasisesi
12:13 < kanzure> chases?
12:13 < kanzure> chasces
12:13  * fenn squints
12:14 < fenn> is that the plural of chassis
12:15 < kanzure> it is now
12:15 < kanzure> chasces seems to work
12:16 < kanzure> hmm english dictionaries claim that the plural of "chassis" is "chassis"
12:18 < fenn> it's a stupid word anyway and should be deprecated
12:19 < kanzure> what's the alternative?
12:20 < ParahSailin_> wtf is artistic license
12:20 < ParahSailin_> is this like bsd/mit/apache?
12:23 < fenn> some synonyms my thesaurus gives me: base, framework, foundation, infrastructure, shell, skeleton, set, setting
12:25 < kanzure> let's go with cellular template
12:31 < kanzure> what's the status of truth serums anyway
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12:45 < ryankarason> ParahSailin_: http://choosealicense.com/licenses/ does a nice breakdown for you
12:46 < ryankarason> looks the the major difference of Artistic license is that it requires the documentation of "significant changes"
12:46 < ryankarason> it also seems to state that packages included need not conform to the Artistic License
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13:38 < archels> does anyone know some good virtual reality mailing lists?
13:41 < ParahSailin_> ah crap libgen not working
13:41 < ParahSailin_> and my ezproxy graduated in may
13:42 < eudoxia> http://gen.lib.rus.ec/ works from here
13:42 < ParahSailin_> yeah but search broken
13:42 < kanzure> archels: https://www.w3.org/community/ar/
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13:42 < ParahSailin_> !head http://gen.lib.rus.ec/scimag/index.php
13:43 < kanzure> .head http://gen.lib.rus.ec/scimag/index.php
13:43 < kanzure> hmph
13:43 < yoleaux> 504, text/html, 403 bytes
13:43 < kanzure> ah, well.
13:44 < archels> oh wow, irc.w3.org is really dead
13:44 < kanzure> ask swhack
13:44 < kanzure> they are w3/ietf people
13:46 < kanzure> no i meant about w3 irc
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13:46 < archels> I don't really care much about w3 IRC :)
13:47 < archels> I mean, it would have been nice if it had been more active, but oh well
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16:01 < kanzure> "In 1930 a former German airship officer, Captain Anton Heinen, working in the US for the US Navy on its dirigible fleet, attempted to design and build a four place blimp called the "family air yacht" for private fliers which the inventor claimed would be priced below $10,000 and easier to fly than a fixed wing aircraft if placed in production. It was unsuccessful.[7][8]"
16:01 < kanzure> "Currently, there are approximately 13 active advertising airships in the world today. Van Wagner Airship Group is the owner and operator of 8 of these active ships, including the Hood Blimp, DirecTV blimp, and the MetLife blimp.[9]"
16:02 < kanzure> only $85k http://www.ebay.com/itm/An-airship-blimp-you-can-fly-FAA-registered-INCL-TRAINING-FOR-PILOT-LICENSE-/251989833627?forcerrptr=true&hash=item3aabc3b79b&item=251989833627
16:03 < kanzure> blah "You MUST have a balloon pilot's license to fly it."
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17:19 < kanzure> http://www.google.com/selfdrivingcar/reports/
17:19 < kanzure> http://static.googleusercontent.com/media/www.google.com/en/us/selfdrivingcar/files/reports/report-0515.pdf
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17:36 < fenn> just a bunch of accident reports, mostly people running into it from behind at 2 MPH
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18:29 < wrldpc1> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DE3F6BjOg-E
18:29 < yoleaux> Bote 00018 Movin' in! - YouTube
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18:46 < fenn> 説明して下さい
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--- Log closed Fri Jun 26 00:00:52 2015