--- Log opened Sat Jul 25 00:00:21 2015
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02:25 < justanotheruser> erasmus: what
02:29 < erasmus> ha ha
02:34 < justanotheruser> ?
02:50 < erasmus> 07/25/2015 -:- 05:29:45 AM] matthewt sets mode +b *!*Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser
02:50 < erasmus> [07/25/2015 -:- 05:29:45 AM] matthewt kicked justanotheruser from the channel. (unfunny trolling)
02:50 < justanotheruser> what does my ##cooking ban have to do with transhumanism?
02:51 < erasmus> you asked why I laughed. No?
02:51 < justanotheruser> I'm confused, was your laugh transhumanist, or did you mistake this channel for my pm?
02:51 < erasmus> I didn't say anything to you in here. You said [07/25/2015 -:- 05:27:47 AM] <justanotheruser> erasmus: what
02:51 < erasmus> for no reason.
02:52 < erasmus> Have you been drinking?
02:52 < justanotheruser> you hilighted me
02:52 < erasmus> no I didn't.
02:52 < justanotheruser> you joining ##hplusroadmap hilights me
02:52 < justanotheruser> also, yes
02:52 < erasmus> fix your client.
02:54 < erasmus> I first joined this channel on 2012-12-15
02:55 < erasmus> [17:24:26] Topic is biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | sponsored by george church and the NRA | http://gnusha.org/logs http://diyhpl.us/wiki http://groups.google.com/group/diybio | friends don't let friends do super college
02:55 < erasmus> [17:24:26] Set by kanzure on August 10, 2012 11:01:18 AM EDT
02:55 < justanotheruser> that was 12-15?
02:56 < justanotheruser> topic hasn't changed much
02:57 < erasmus> earliest I have from you in here is [10/06/2013 -:- 05:31:25 PM]
02:57 < erasmus> andrew.
02:58 < justanotheruser> hmm, my logs don't go that far back
02:58 < justanotheruser> what did I say?
02:58 < erasmus> [11/03/2013 -:- 11:20:17 PM] justanotheruser: jrayhawk: IRC has more smartasses per capita than any form of internet communication I have used
02:59 < justanotheruser> lol
02:59 < justanotheruser> wait, are you jrayhawk?
02:59 < erasmus> I am not.
02:59 < justanotheruser> oh ok
03:00 < erasmus> you claim to have done work for hplusmagazine.com in the past
03:00 < justanotheruser> what
03:00 < justanotheruser> source?
03:00 < erasmus> [11/04/2013 -:- 12:27:28 AM] kanzure: justanotheruser: the only relationship between hplusroadmap and hplusmagazine is that i mistakingly did work for hplusmagazine.com in the past, i guess
03:00 < justanotheruser> context?
03:00 < erasmus> oh wait
03:00 < erasmus> that was him
03:00 < justanotheruser> oh
03:01 < justanotheruser> right
03:01 < justanotheruser> yeah, I was pretty sure I didn't do work for hplusmagazine
03:02 < erasmus> you are/were a student at Perdue who plays with paperbots.
03:02 < justanotheruser> basically
03:02 < justanotheruser> *played
03:02 < justanotheruser> RIP paperbot
03:03 < erasmus> you were sunna?
03:03 < justanotheruser> I don't even know what that means
03:03 < erasmus> you changed you handle to sunna and then to {`0__0`}
03:03 < justanotheruser> oh, yeah, that was me dicking around in another channel
03:04 < erasmus> yeah hard to remember all the trolling huh.
03:04 < justanotheruser> not sure what you mean
03:04 < justanotheruser> anyways, kanzure will probably punish me for all this pointless scrollback that should be in PM, feel free to message me in PM, though I may fall asleep
03:04 < erasmus> nothing. I'm sure your heart is normally in the right place.
03:05 < erasmus> yeah tbh I never chat in here. Just listen. You have been reaching out to me.
03:05 < erasmus> I chat in ##cooking ##adhd and ##Neurofeedback
03:05 < justanotheruser> Been trying to reach out to bluelobster too since bluelobster is interested in transhumanism and is smart enough to do it
03:06 < erasmus> people have to be into it.
03:06 < erasmus> I don't think it's something you can really GET someone into.
03:06 < erasmus> it's like Kung Fu movies.
03:06 < justanotheruser> Not sure what you mean. An interest is the first step to a hobby.
03:07 < erasmus> yeah but it's not like come over and checkout my pottery collection
03:07 < erasmus> biohacking is more self-guided.
03:08 < erasmus> the need comes from within.
03:08 < justanotheruser> yeah, but since he's interested in transhumanism, I linked him to the declaration. Not much else to do other than do something else and have him come if he wants
03:08 < justanotheruser> It's not as if I'm trying to force it on him
03:08 < justanotheruser> anyways, PM
03:08 < erasmus> he's a multimillionaire who just retired.
03:09 < erasmus> I don't think he cares about getting that edge.
03:10 < erasmus> and doing all these bleeding-edge shit isn't exactly always the smartest thing to do.
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05:56 < kanzure> erasmus: most of the things in here aren't really bleeding-edge.
05:56 < kanzure> "oh noes some actuators and inkjets"... this is like 1970s.
05:57 < erasmus> cutting?
06:00 < kanzure> no i thikn you said bleeding, but my bad if you didn't
06:06 < erasmus> I did say bleeding
06:06 < erasmus> but adjusted.
06:06 < erasmus> would you agree with cutting?
06:07 < kanzure> i have no idea. what particularly advanced technologies are you thinking of?
06:07 < erasmus> kanzure would you rather... dip your finger in acid OR get your big toes eaten by a camel?
06:08 < kanzure> big toe; i need my fingers way more.
06:08 < erasmus> but it's both toes
06:08 < kanzure> that's fine
06:08 < erasmus> you'll never run again
06:09 < kanzure> that's not true
06:09 < erasmus> sure it is
06:09 < erasmus> you'd be cobbled
06:09 < kanzure> lots of people run without toes, feet or even legs. what are you smoking?
06:10 < erasmus> not w/o implants
06:10 < erasmus> you might be able to have your thumbs grafted
06:10 < erasmus> but then you'll lose two major fingers.
06:10 < erasmus> I don't think you have thought this through.
06:11 < erasmus> do you take any nootropics?
06:12 < erasmus> n/m
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06:46 -!- Topic for ##hplusroadmap: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | sponsored by lobsters everywhere, banned by the Federal Death Administration (5 times) | this channel is LOGGED: http://gnusha.org/logs | http://diyhpl.us/wiki | "ray kurzweil is a pessimist" - george church
06:46 -!- Topic set by kanzure [~kanzure@unaffiliated/kanzure] [Wed May 20 12:46:28 2015]
06:46 [Users ##hplusroadmap]
06:46 [ _hanhart        ] [ BobaMa_     ] [ EnabrinTain    ] [ kanzure      ] [ pasky          ] [ streety  ] 
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06:46 [ ahab            ] [ cluckj      ] [ gnusha         ] [ mf1008       ] [ Porb           ] [ superkuh ] 
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06:46 -!- Irssi: ##hplusroadmap: Total of 84 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 84 normal]
06:46 -!- Channel ##hplusroadmap created Thu Feb 25 23:40:30 2010
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06:47 < JayDugger> Fuck...ZFS tuning.
06:47 < JayDugger> suggestions?
06:47 < JayDugger> Wrong channel, right.
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08:11 < kanzure> "a resource guide for doing business in china" http://export.gov/china/build/groups/public/@eg_cn/documents/webcontent/eg_cn_055956.pdf
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11:04 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=c288169e Bryan Bishop: transcript: lightning network stuff >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/sf-bitcoin-meetup/2015-05-26-lightning-network/
11:22 < kanzure> "Repression of the heat shock response is a programmed event at the onset of reproduction" http://www.cell.com/molecular-cell/abstract/S1097-2765(15)00499-2
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12:59 < delinquentme> Why dont we currently bank monocytes?
13:00 < delinquentme> this seems like  a really smart 'dumb' way to push your aging down the line
13:02 < kanzure> http://hackaday.com/2014/01/14/hydro-the-low-cost-waterjet-cutter/
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13:02 < kanzure> delinquentme: well, there was a lot of push back to personal cell line banking because blood donation organizations claimed that it would encourage people to donate less blood.
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13:03 < delinquentme> what the fack.
13:03 < delinquentme> god fucking damnit
13:03 < delinquentme> is it illegal? or just frowned upon?
13:06 < kanzure> i don't remember, but i'm sure the fda licenses and regulates that activity :-(
13:07 < kanzure> also: "median setup time for 'top machine shops' was 2.5 to 3 hours" http://www.mmsonline.com/articles/see-how-you-stack-up
13:08 < kanzure> and in 2007 it was 5.8 hours of setup on average? wtf
13:10 < mgin> ?
13:10 < mgin> what's a machine shop
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14:11 < kanzure> i keep forgetting about branch grafting. you can just tape branches together and the tree keeps on ticking. http://devour.com/video/tree-that-grows-40-kinds-of-fruit/
14:14 < justanotheruser> really?
14:14 < justanotheruser> So I could have a multi-fruit tree? Awesome!
14:14 < justanotheruser> I wonder the logistics of their tree
14:20 < TMA> most are just varieties -- you cannot graft completely unrelated species successfully
14:20 < Betawolf> apples mostly only work because of this feature
14:20 < TMA> but the prunus genus is generally compatible
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14:22 < TMA> so you can have nectarines, peaches, plums, almonds on one tree -- maybe even cherries, appricots and the less known prunes
14:25 < TMA> apples are very special beasts -- they frequently mutate so that a single branch becomes a new variety (so you now have yellow or red Granny Smith apples instead of the regular green ones)
14:27 < TMA> justanotheruser: the logistics are somewhat complex: each variety needs slightly different care (some varieties produce lot of new wood that needs to be cut more often, some are more brittle, ...)
14:27 < justanotheruser> If I have 4 branches in a young apple tree, can I graft a different species branches on those branches and it will never grow apples from those branches?
14:27 < Betawolf> I hadn't heard of this. What I was referring to was how their sexual reproduction produces radically different DNA, so breeding them from seed is impractical if you're after a specific characteristic (like a particular fruit). Hence they graft apple stocks for consistence.
14:28 < TMA> justanotheruser: if you have an apple tree you will be able to graft other apples. maybe pears, if you are lucky and skilled
14:29 < Betawolf> This probably makes apple crops quite vulnerable to diseases.
14:29 < TMA> justanotheruser: but make the rootstock some prunus -- say an plum seedling. you can then graft almonds, peaches, nectarines onto that
14:29 < justanotheruser> But in general, if I have one subspecies of apple, and graft 4 other subspecies, will it only grow the new grafted apples, or might it grow the original as well
14:31 < TMA> justanotheruser: if you graft this way: ====----  (= is old wood, - is the grafted on new wood) then (a) from the = the original will grow (b) from - the grafted on variety will groe
14:31 < TMA> *grow
14:32 < justanotheruser> I thought it only mattered which was on top/furthest from root?
14:32 < TMA> justanotheruser: and now for the important (c): if you permit big growth of the === stock, the grafts will die, because there is a resistance on the transition
14:33 < TMA> justanotheruser: the only thing that matters is the DNA of the bud producing the fruit
14:33 < TMA> if the bud is from the original wood, you get the original fruit
14:35 < TMA> sometimes the situation is more compelex still: some varieties can be grafted onto some others but not on a generic rootstock, because the generic rootstock is way too incompatible with the special one
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14:36 < TMA> so you graft a tolerant variety on the rootstock, then you graft the desired one on top of that
14:36 < TMA> (i have encountered this with walnuts)
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14:37 < justanotheruser> how do  not permet growth of the big?
14:37 < justanotheruser> *permit
14:37 < kanzure> it's probably something like, "trees don't know the difference between a gash in a branch and a branch being replaced"
14:38 < TMA> you cut off all the branches from the root stock. After the graft is big enough the rootstock will not make branches of his own
14:39 < TMA> because there is an instruction "prefer making new branches on the crown circumference or at the top"
14:40 < TMA> (bushes do not have this instruction, that's why they look like  bushes not like trees)
14:41 < TMA> "make new branches wherever you can" instruction is still there, as can be tested by cutting down a tree and watching the stump produce new trunks/branches
14:43 < chris_99> people have tried grafting hops to cannabis to see if you get THC from the hop, turns out you don't
14:44 < TMA> interesting, that confirms that the THC is produced IN the flowers, not in the roots and transported
14:46 < chris_99> yeah, they also tried the opposite, cannabis to a hop plant, and the THC levels were the same as those in a normal cannabis plant
14:46 < Betawolf> did they look at the hop foliage from those plants?
14:46 < Betawolf> would be interesting to see if it bled out from the cannibis graft at all
14:47 < chris_99> sec, i'll see if i can find the paper
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14:51 < chris_99> oh paperbot thou are not 'ere
14:51 < chris_99> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0031942275851004
14:52 < Betawolf> http://moscow.sci-hub.bz/42f2eb85473f69109e72b559c9b9b622/10.1016@0031-9422(75)85100-4.pdf
14:52 < chris_99> ta
14:54 < Betawolf> (answer to my question would appear to be in the abstract: no evidence of transport)
15:05 < Betawolf> and more clearly: "Leaves produced on H.japonicus stock from below a Cannabis graft showed no cannabinoids, and neither did a fruiting specimen of H. japonicus grown on Kew strain Cannabis for 17 weeks."
15:17 < archels> delinquentme: there's some stuff in the logs about blood banking. somewhere.
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15:51 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=10363e92 Bryan Bishop: another lightning network presentation >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/sf-bitcoin-meetup/2015-02-23-scaling-bitcoin-to-billions-of-transactions-per-day/
15:52 < kanzure> moscow.sci-hub.bz -_________- great opsec gus
15:52 < kanzure> *great opsec guys
15:55 < Betawolf> I didn't know not to do that. What is the threat?
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16:41 < kanzure> Betawolf: it's not your fault. they just shouldn't name their subdomains based on cities that their servers are located in.
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16:43 < Betawolf> Ah, okay. I wondered if I was leaking something with that hash. For what it's worth, I think the three mirrors are 'moscow', 'oceania' and 'cyber', so it might just be they consider moscow safe enough.
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17:11 < mgin> curious what other people's strategies are for living forever
17:22 < juri_> work hard.
17:24 < mgin> just in general, or on something specific?
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17:32 < juri_> right now it's 3d printing. I'm missing way too much education.
17:32 < mgin> you're working on 3d printing?
17:32 < mgin> how is that a strategy to live forever?
17:34 < juri_> It's the thing i have to bring to the table. What skills are you bringing?
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17:44 < mgin> that doesn't answer the question..
17:45 < juri_> I think it does. I'm doing what i can. you should as well.
17:45 < delinquentme> mgin, i dont follow how it doesnt answer the question
17:45 < delinquentme> it reset immune system if you can muster 72 hours of it
17:45 < delinquentme> it increases focus
17:46 < delinquentme> it reattinuates your body to insulin sensitivity
17:46 < delinquentme> it lowers body fat
17:50 < mgin> what??
17:53 -!- justanotheruser is now known as geronimo
17:53 -!- geronimo is now known as justanotheruser
17:53 < mgin> what does 3d printing have to do with living forever
17:54 < ryankarason> @big toe eaten by a camel
17:55 -!- justanotheruser is now known as kish\
17:55 -!- kish\ is now known as justanotheruser
17:55 < ryankarason> some time ago (maybe 3 years) i had a particularly interesting dream, where a friend of mine cut off my toe with a chainsaw
17:56 < ryankarason> it was so painful that i woke up immediately, however there was a handful of brain cycles that looped during this wake up and i felt the pain flee away from my body in the second or so it took to come to consciousness
17:56 < ryankarason> was /very/ interesting.
17:57 < ryankarason> i was i had the ability at the moment to see how precisely my brain was generating the pain signals.. curious if there were any markers in my blood system or something..
18:00 < kanzure> neurotransmission is much faster than blood signalling
18:08 -!- MrJuulie is now known as juul
18:23 < delinquentme> yashgaroth, ParahSailin_ questions on antibody discovery.
18:24 < yashgaroth> k
18:24 < delinquentme> Im trying to come up with novel market ideas for an antibody a colleague of mine might be going after
18:24 < delinquentme> right now hes interested for the long to-market solution being something totally uninspired : cGMP facilities
18:25 < delinquentme> since we're working towards creating a known antibody with established function
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18:26 < delinquentme> AND that within cancer drugs, some antibodies are known to bind quite well and others less so to known cancers
18:26 < ryankarason> kanzure: aye.. i figured as much.. but by which method does it signal from foot to brain.. or was everything just happening in the brain?
18:26 < delinquentme> I had thought that GIVEN that most all cancers are sequenced, and a known drug / cancer interaction... that atteniuating that drug to address possible other variants of the same cancer .. might be a good method forward
18:27 < yashgaroth> I wish you luck with your clinical trials
18:27 < delinquentme> except my friend writes this off as very difficult ... and thinks it falls surely within ' discovery '
18:28 < yashgaroth> is he working with a known antibody, as in developed/patented/tested/produced by some other company already?
18:28 < delinquentme> yes its a generic
18:29 < yashgaroth> very few cancer antibodies are generic at this point
18:29 < delinquentme> sure
18:29 < ParahSailin_> lmgtfy
18:29 < delinquentme> but modifying that
18:29 < delinquentme> is that complex
18:30 < delinquentme> my understanding of this is we've already got a controlled construct generating that antibody
18:30 < delinquentme> and wed be modifying ~ 100 bps to change its conformation
18:30 < delinquentme> the majority of that antibody stays the same no?
18:30 < delinquentme> ParahSailin_, what am I googling?
18:30 < yashgaroth> yes, you're probably only chanigng the antigen binding segment
18:31 < delinquentme> but thats still complex
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18:31 < yashgaroth> depends what you want to do with it, but yes
18:31 < delinquentme> or is the complexity in getting FDA approval for the modified antibody?
18:31 < yashgaroth> that's not so much complex as expensive and time-consuming
18:32 < yashgaroth> also the only people with a "controlled construct generating that antibody" are the company currently selling it, and they won't give it to you; however it's easy enough to generate one
18:32 < delinquentme> correct
18:32 < delinquentme> thats our short term delivarable
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18:33 < yashgaroth> how short term are you hoping
18:33 < delinquentme> to get the antibody? hoping 3 months
18:33 < delinquentme> weve also got a number of milestones setup to ease our way into it
18:34 < delinquentme> and a researcher whos created this molecule in a research setting already
18:34 < delinquentme> so like we feel thats achieveable
18:34 < yashgaroth> stable cell line development is typically 6 months, but I believe in you
18:35 < delinquentme> my concern is what to do after we get the antibody
18:35 < yashgaroth> yeah who are you delivering it to after 3 months
18:35 < delinquentme> cGMP and un-differentiated scale up sounds boring as shit
18:35 < delinquentme> im injecting it
18:35 < delinquentme> jk
18:35 < drethelin> no do it
18:35 < drethelin> inject that shit
18:35 < yashgaroth> my sympathies on your cancer diagnosis
18:35 < drethelin> DO IT FOR SCIENCE
18:35 < delinquentme> we just want to crystalize it and verify that the end structure is as expected
18:36 < delinquentme> now one thing we've talked about is cgmp purification
18:36 < yashgaroth> GMP and scale-up is boring as shit, I can assure you
18:36 < delinquentme> which is at least a LITTLE more differentiated
18:36 < delinquentme> hahahaha
18:36 < drethelin> I've heard of GMP, what's cGMP?>
18:36 < yashgaroth> you don't need GMP manufacturing for a crystal structure, tbh you don't need a crystal structure
18:36 < delinquentme> yashgaroth, yeah I started reading and eyes insta-glossed over
18:36 < yashgaroth> "current GMP"
18:37 < delinquentme> yashgaroth, correct.
18:37 < yashgaroth> it's all paperwork and document review boards and ugh kill me
18:37 < delinquentme> GMP is the like 5/10 year goal
18:37 < yashgaroth> ok good
18:37 < delinquentme> but getting REALLY good at protein characterization could be hot and useful
18:38 < delinquentme> I mean *ANYONE* whos putting shit into people wants really well characterized molecules
18:38 < yashgaroth> nah not really, run some gels, HPLC, glycosylation analysis, terminal sequencing, mass spec, that's good enough
18:38 < delinquentme> so thats at least got me paying attention
18:38 < delinquentme> yashgaroth, Y U NO neutron diffraction?
18:38 < delinquentme> xray crystalography
18:38 < delinquentme> low-g crystalization
18:39 < yashgaroth> it's just a fucking antibody, jesus
18:39 < delinquentme> these suck less than paperwork
18:39 < delinquentme> yashgaroth, its not just the antibody though, its the 3% of unknowns in that compound
18:39 < yashgaroth> what unknowns
18:39 < delinquentme> when a drug is guaranteed at 97% purity
18:40 < yashgaroth> a. you're not gonna see those in a crystal, and b. 97% is way too low for injectables
18:40 < delinquentme> Ah!
18:40 < delinquentme> so how to get higher then?
18:40 < yashgaroth> more purification steps, depending on the nature of the contaminants
18:40 < delinquentme> the partner seems to be interested in 'molecular velcro' as a protocol
18:40 < drethelin> why does your product have unknownsin the first place
18:41 < delinquentme> which I semi understand
18:41 < drethelin> don't you control the ingredients and do filtration and whatnot/
18:41 < delinquentme> drethelin, sure but im not trying to explain right now
18:41 < yashgaroth> no just run a Protein A column, then Q, then size-exclusion or something, it's not rocket science it's just biochemistry
18:41 < delinquentme> drethelin, easy one is uncharacterized growth medium
18:42 < kanzure> drethelin: some antibody production techniques are just "use some rabbit"
18:42 < kanzure> so... rabbit stuff.
18:42 < yashgaroth> shoot cancer into rabbit, wait 12 weeks, "extract"
18:42 < delinquentme> yay antobodies!
18:43 < drethelin> kanzure: hah fair
18:43 < yashgaroth> I always have to sit and wonder when I receive 20 liters of hybridoma ascites from a mouse host, like how many tens of thousands of mice went into this
18:43 < yashgaroth> however you will be using CHO cells in defined media
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18:45 < yashgaroth> anyway molecular velcro seems like a hip new protocol but you don't need to fuck around with that for mass purification
18:46 < drethelin> https://srconstantin.wordpress.com/2015/07/19/we-could-regrow-livers/
18:47 < delinquentme> yashgaroth, his concern is regeneration / maintainance of the columns
18:47 < delinquentme> I've only read about this but from what I read it seems simple
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18:47 < yashgaroth> nah, if you're not an idiot you can regenerate them a hundred times and they'll lose maybe 10% binding capacity, and that's with the last-gen resins
18:48 < yashgaroth> and that's only for Protein A, ion-exchange/size-exclusion/hydrophobic interaction resins you can cycle way more since they're not protein-based
18:50 < yashgaroth> the amortized cost of columns is a small fraction of purification cost, and I'm saying that as someone who regularly packs columns with $250k worth of resin
18:51 < drethelin> I love how small huge piles dollars can get in biochem
18:52 < delinquentme> yashgaroth, awesome . thanks for the comments.
18:53 < delinquentme> yeah idk man . like I LIKE our path ... UP TO the FDA approval part
18:53 < delinquentme> like everything we've talked about w getting the molecule sounds quite attainable
18:53 < yashgaroth> yeah I'd recommend skipping the FDA part
18:53 < delinquentme> but then theres the sitting on my thumbs with the FDA approval
18:53 < delinquentme> it IS off patent in euro already though so
18:53 < delinquentme> unsure if the FDA equivalent over there sucks any less
18:54 < delinquentme> also of interest is that we can *totally* compete on cost in the 3rd world
18:54 < yashgaroth> so what is it, rituxan?
18:54 < delinquentme> again more SUPER interesting paths to market YAY " we're cheaper "
18:54 < delinquentme> yashgaroth, :D thats our second compound
18:55 < drethelin> "skipping the FDA" seems
18:55 < drethelin> risky
18:55 < yashgaroth> well unless you have some secret sauce to mutate the antibody, with data to back it up, you'll still find it difficult to compete
18:56 < yashgaroth> china produces very good antibody, low price, best quality ,totally legit testing, no hairs
18:56 < delinquentme> yashgaroth, what do you mean mutate the antibody ?
18:56 < delinquentme> yashgaroth, !! maybe thats a path.
18:56 < delinquentme> develop the process and then take it to a chineze mfgr
18:56 < yashgaroth> I assumed with the "discovery" part you were maybe going to do something so it wouldn't just be a biosimilar
18:57 < delinquentme> yashgaroth, nah the current plan is specifically a biosimilars applicaiton
18:57 < delinquentme> but I dont imagine that to be trivial either
18:57 < yashgaroth> well "develop the process" means shove the expression cassette into some cells, pick a high-producing clone, and then feed it into a pretty generic purification
18:57 < delinquentme> aside: cost approximation on biosimilars approval?
18:58 < yashgaroth> less than for a new drug, but still never been tackled by anyone less than huge pharma
18:58 < delinquentme> yashgaroth, right. thats about what we're looking to do for the first 3 months
18:58 < delinquentme> partner seems pretty bullish on being able to raise $$$ to last through that
18:58 < delinquentme> which im quite ehhhh on
18:58 < yashgaroth> yeah I could do that for a quarter-mil easy, probably less
18:59 < delinquentme> esp considering there are like a few more than 10 generics manufactures who have that scale already
18:59 < yashgaroth> way easier to outsource it to a CRO
18:59 < delinquentme> yashgaroth, his approx was 150 mil for biosimilars
18:59 < delinquentme> ^ my thoughts
18:59 < yashgaroth> oh for like FDA approval, yeah
18:59 < delinquentme> yashgaroth, youre saying you could get to the molecule for sub 250k
19:00 < yashgaroth> I could give you a cell line that produces a few grams per liter, albeit in closer to 6 months yeah
19:00 < yashgaroth> and develop the purification process ofc
19:00 < yashgaroth> the 150mil is for FDA/clinical trials/cGMP scale-up
19:01 < delinquentme> yashgaroth, yeah thats about the money we're looking at
19:01 < delinquentme> and I think we've established that that portion is doable
19:01 < yashgaroth> well the first 3 months is a tiny fraction of that
19:01 < delinquentme> probably
19:02 < delinquentme> ... but I think my interest is getting $$$
19:02 < yashgaroth> feel free to inflate the projected costs in your slide deck
19:02 < delinquentme> I want something closer to market
19:02 < delinquentme> if we were selling products in 3 months I'd be happy
19:03 < delinquentme> we do think well be able to make some novel cell lines but IDK if selling that will be wildly lucrative
19:03 < yashgaroth> well your options there are to either skip regulatory approval, or manufacture & sell it outside the U.S./EU
19:03 < yashgaroth> also there are dozens of CROs who do that every day, making cell lines and purification processes is pretty trivial these days
19:04 < yashgaroth> and may I recommend south america for your black clinic
19:04 < delinquentme> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Medicines_Agency
19:04 < delinquentme> this does seem more approachable
19:04 < delinquentme> hahaha
19:05 < delinquentme> yeah
19:05 < delinquentme> but its still worth some money
19:05 < yashgaroth> a surprisingly small amount of money, trust me, especially for someone who could presumably make far more money mashing on a keyboard
19:05 < delinquentme> getting a cell line to a molecule with an established market is, in my uneducated opinion, worth something
19:06 < yashgaroth> it's worth the lowest bidder in a saturated market, albeit with some cost-savings by 'cutting out the middleman' as it were
19:06 < delinquentme> I can make money programming for sure ... but I mean its nowhere near the market cap on these drugs
19:06 < delinquentme> we're talking both are in excess of 5b a year
19:07 < yashgaroth> however you are competing with several very large corporations that have a wealth of experience, and masses of underemployed biologists to labor for them
19:08 < yashgaroth> if there is a market for a competitor's biologic when it goes out of patent, they will move on it
19:08 < delinquentme> yeah
19:08 < yashgaroth> this is only if you plan to compete in the regulated space, obviously
19:08 < delinquentme> maybe we should just name the company 'black market biologics'
19:09 < yashgaroth> nah I snagged that one already
19:09 < delinquentme> SoB
19:10 < yashgaroth> so yeah your option is to sell it straight-up black market in US/EU, or in the far less profitable "developing world", where you're still competing, just with cut-rate back-alley operations instead of megacorps
19:11 < yashgaroth> or the third option, black clinic in south america, where US/EU citizens fly to get your high-quality antibodies
19:11 < delinquentme> I do kinda want to run a megacorp though
19:11 < delinquentme> are there hospitals in africa which would run something like that as clinical trials?
19:11 < delinquentme> i'd guess the answer is yes
19:12 < yashgaroth> mostly in india, africa doesn't quite have the infrastructure
19:12 < delinquentme> idk how I feels about this
19:12 < yashgaroth> foreign clinical trials are rarely recognized, especially those run in less scrupulous countries
19:12 < delinquentme> true
19:12 < delinquentme> but for our own edification ... they could be useful
19:13 < yashgaroth> hell even clinical trials run in the US are dubious enough
19:13 < delinquentme> but then i guess I worry about getting mismatched tumor cells or totally 3rd party genomes
19:13 < delinquentme> hahaha
19:15 < yashgaroth> anyway it certainly has potential to work, and I'm not just saying that so I can buy up your equipment in a firesale next year
19:16 < delinquentme> yashgaroth, youre not in the SF area are you ?
19:16 < yashgaroth> nah but I
19:16 < yashgaroth> 'll drive up there if the deals are good
19:16 < delinquentme> good well we'll ensure the equipment is nice and dense
19:16 < delinquentme> EVERYTHING VIBRATION DAMPENED
19:16 < yashgaroth> much as I would like to live in SF, I'm rather priced out by the python wranglers etc
19:17 < delinquentme> san jose?
19:17 < delinquentme> if it makes you feel better I dont own a dog or a car
19:17 < delinquentme> all muh pets R servers
19:17 < yashgaroth> it's all one rooms that cost more than a house here, and I thought san diego was expensive
19:17 < delinquentme> haha yeahh
19:18 < delinquentme> $800 for my apt in oakland
19:18 < delinquentme> but is nice and central
19:18 < yashgaroth> did I hear you were doing some work with carlo quinonez, or was that someone else
19:19 < drethelin> I like that I pay 1/3 the price of SF
19:19 < drethelin> or berkeley
19:19 < drethelin> too bad it means I never get to hang out with the coolest california kids
19:21 < delinquentme> yashgaroth, I've met up with him a number of times
19:21 < delinquentme> but I think hes pretty engaged with his current efforts
19:21 < delinquentme> ( at the job )
19:21 < yashgaroth> fair enough
19:21 < delinquentme> isaac yonemoto is the current individual I might be working with
19:24 < yashgaroth> it is an antibody though right? not this small-molecule 9-deoxysibiromycin
19:24 < delinquentme> it is an antibody
19:28 < yashgaroth> and this isaac is not the person
19:28 < yashgaroth> ...who previously worked on this antibody, right?
19:29 < yashgaroth> the "a researcher whos created this molecule in a research setting already"
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19:31 < delinquentme> correct. thats a different individual
19:31 < delinquentme> one of our mutual friends
19:31 < yashgaroth> ah ok I was gonna say, this guy's pure chemistry
19:33 < delinquentme> alright! relocating
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19:51 < kanzure> http://lesswrong.com/lw/gv/outside_the_laboratory/
19:51 < kanzure> oh wait, nevermind. much more boring than i thought.
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20:36 < justanotheruser> "Large dielectric constants are undesirable, since they mean a large capacitance of the piezo tube, which will limit the scanning frequency obtainable for a given drive current."
20:39 < justanotheruser> Isn't this dependent on how much precision you are looking to get?
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