--- Log opened Fri Jul 31 00:00:09 2015
--- Day changed Fri Jul 31 2015
00:00 < xtalmath> I wonder if the bluray head could be mounted on the quadrant piezo disk STM
00:00 < nmz787_i> and you can overcurrent them on startup when they're cold
00:00 < xtalmath> yes they have PD inside
00:01 < nmz787_i> hmm, maybe... you wouldn't get much deflection with such an up close focal point
00:01 < xtalmath> yeah
00:02 < nmz787_i> there is a reverse technique of something like that for ultraresolution raman microscopy though
00:03 < nmz787_i> where they use a piezo crystal with the sample to be viewed mounted on it
00:03 < nmz787_i> and resonate the sample, then pulse a laser at it
00:03 < nmz787_i> and record the feedback on the piezo
00:05 < xtalmath> have you experimented with the bluray lasers?
00:09 < nmz787_i> only tried using a buspirate to connect up to the main-lookin chip on one of the drives I bought to mess with
00:10 < nmz787_i> I have a regulated power supply to drive the laser if I had a gantry though
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00:19 < xtalmath> hm lasersurplusparts.com from the article you posted is gone
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00:48 < BlueLobster> justanotheruser: my reeducation program could benefit from your assistance
00:49 < justanotheruser> what
00:49 < BlueLobster> actually I think all of those positions are quite transhumanist
00:50 < BlueLobster> but we can pick whichver of them you'd prefer to debate
00:50 < BlueLobster> is it bestiality, the age of consent, drugs or islam?
00:51 < BlueLobster> I'm kind of bored and wouldn't mind some productive conversation
00:56 < BlueLobster> justanotheruser: you disagree that ideologies that have core tenets that fundamentally oppose the transhumanist agenda should be opposed by transhumanists?
00:56 < BlueLobster> is this just a place to talk about happy go lucky bullshit and none of the difficut steps necessary to move forward?
00:57 < justanotheruser> the only thing in that list that has anything to do with transhumanism is drugs
00:59 < justanotheruser> here is some drug info http://diyhpl.us/wiki/fda/
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01:22 < BlueLobster> justanotheruser: ok so you're clearly fucked
01:22 < BlueLobster> how does actively killing those whose core beliefs oppose transhumanism not promote the transhumanist agenda
01:22 < fluffypony> BlueLobster: what if I don't have an agenda?
01:23 < BlueLobster> the rights of children may only matter insofar as children dont matter because only future children matter
01:23 < BlueLobster> fluffypony: then you are not a transhumanist
01:23 < BlueLobster> you're a wannabe transhuman clown
01:23 < fluffypony> I'm not a transhumanist at all
01:23 < BlueLobster> fantastic
01:23 < fluffypony> I never claimed to be
01:23 < BlueLobster> that makes the debate easy, we have no real disagreement
01:24 < BlueLobster> for some reason I thought this channel actually gave a shit about the future of the species
01:24 < lsparrish> Vote for Zoltan!
01:24 < BlueLobster> rather than some silly self improvement projects
01:24 < BlueLobster> might as well be scientologist at this pace
01:24 < fluffypony> lsparrish: ZOOOOLTAAAAN!
01:25 < fluffypony> BlueLobster: I think that FSM is the future, and I await His coming down to save us
01:25 < fluffypony> but not all are worthy of being touched by His Noodly Appendage
01:25 < fluffypony> you must believe to be saved
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01:28 < BlueLobster> fluffypony: that's ok.  I believe in universal disenfranchisement
01:29 < BlueLobster> so your opinions won't be an issue
01:30 < fluffypony> I believe in saving all people that want to be touched
01:30 < fluffypony> http://www.venganza.org/images/spreadword/havetouched.jpg
01:30 < fluffypony> spread the word
01:31 < justanotheruser> BlueLobster: people who fuck animals and deal with age of consent laws don't hurt or help the transhumanist agenda, they are completely unrelated
01:31 < BlueLobster> well this seems impractical
01:31 < BlueLobster> justanotheruser: disagree
01:31 < BlueLobster> fucking animals is a bit of a canard
01:31 < fluffypony> let us pray: http://i.imgur.com/sPDmpmc.jpg
01:31 < BlueLobster> however the rights of children help us move forward more rapidly if well instantiated
01:31 < BlueLobster> as soon as we can abandon the fantasy of the modern family the better
01:32 < BlueLobster> we'll have more empowered, and more importantly emancipated, young scientists
01:32 < BlueLobster> so
01:32 < justanotheruser> money could be better spent on research than trying to change age of consent laws to further the transhumanist agenda
01:32 < BlueLobster> kids matter, drugs matter
01:32 < BlueLobster> justanotheruser: disagree
01:32 < justanotheruser> it's not as if kids become smarter and more productive when a 35 year old guy can fuck them
01:32 < BlueLobster> I think well get more time discounted change
01:32 < BlueLobster> emancipating smart kids
01:32 < BlueLobster> than purely pouring dollars into research
01:33 < BlueLobster> we could have that debate
01:33 < BlueLobster> but as you can easily see
01:33 < BlueLobster> the debate is partof a discussion of transhumanism
01:33 < justanotheruser> emancipation is different from age of consent
01:33 < BlueLobster> you do not have definitive proof that you are correct
01:33 < BlueLobster> justanotheruser: I'm neoholtian
01:33 < justanotheruser> and emancipation doesn't mean they suddenly become researches
01:33 < BlueLobster> but emancipation implies being allowed to suck my cock
01:33 < BlueLobster> so it relates to the age of consent
01:33 < justanotheruser> neopolitan?
01:34 < BlueLobster> it's a topic one can use
01:34 < BlueLobster> neo-holtian
01:34 < justanotheruser> like the ice cream?
01:34 < BlueLobster> john holt
01:34 < BlueLobster> read "escape from childhood"
01:34 < BlueLobster> he argues, among other things
01:34 < BlueLobster> that kids should be able to drive if they can pass the test
01:34 < BlueLobster> be able to vote if they can pass the test
01:34 < BlueLobster> should be able to choose their caretakers
01:34 < BlueLobster> rather than being slaves to their parents
01:34 < justanotheruser> Your search - neoholtian - did not match any documents.
01:34 < BlueLobster> chattels of their parents
01:34 < BlueLobster> I am neo-holtian
01:34 < BlueLobster> I gave you the search term
01:34 < justanotheruser> the words you're making up have never been used
01:34 < BlueLobster> john holt
01:34 < BlueLobster> "escape from childhood"
01:35 < BlueLobster> justanotheruser: you know what else never existed before it did?
01:35 < BlueLobster> progress.
01:35 < justanotheruser> lol
01:35 < BlueLobster> I forget my 4th item
01:35 < BlueLobster> but it was totally transhumanism ready
01:35 < BlueLobster> this channel really just feels like self indulgent navel gazing
01:36 < BlueLobster> rather than any sort of commitment to the furtherance of humanity
01:36 < BlueLobster> real progress will not be made in our generations
01:36 < BlueLobster> but the groundwork can be established
01:37 < justanotheruser> this isn't primarily a politics channel, though if you want to accomplish some political goal, one that would be very positive for the movement is passing the National Fab Lab Network Act, which will be far more useful than legalizing dog sex
01:38 < xtalmath> lol "The measured efficiency for the first order efficiency was about 9.5%, which is in accordance to the plot presented byMoharam and Gaylord[19],..."
01:38 < BlueLobster> yes as I said
01:38 < BlueLobster> "not primarily a politics channel"
01:39 < BlueLobster> may be better translated as "entirely fucking useless bunch of cunts"
01:39 < BlueLobster> because as far as I can tell people are trying to live the fantasy of transhumanism today
01:39 < BlueLobster> which will neer be a reality in your lifetimes
01:39 < BlueLobster> rather than actually promoting the cause
01:39 < justanotheruser> there are ways to accomplish transhumanist goals that are far more efficient than asking someone to make laws that make people act in a way that makes them more likely to further the transhumanist movement
01:39 < BlueLobster> too bad.  Head in the clouds.
01:40 < BlueLobster> justanotheruser: prove it
01:40 < BlueLobster> I"d like to see your list
01:40 < justanotheruser> list of what?
01:40 < BlueLobster> ways
01:40 < justanotheruser> working on open source hardware
01:40 < justanotheruser> working on open source scientific software
01:40 < justanotheruser> working on research using these tools
01:40 < BlueLobster> I'm a julia contributor
01:41 < BlueLobster> sometimes we need to multitask
01:41 < BlueLobster> don't tell me you fucks aren't supporters of julia
01:41  * BlueLobster rolls eyes
01:42 < BlueLobster> I'm massively disappointed in the transhumanist community in general beacuse as I said mostly self indlugent cunts
01:42 < BlueLobster> who think it's going to benefit THEM
01:42 < BlueLobster> rather than future humans
01:42 < BlueLobster> but also because "omg nootripics" and really not a lot of organization whatsoever
01:43 < BlueLobster> Julia.  Suck it.
01:44 < xtalmath> BlueLobster: I think the best way forward, is to recognize that all communication is worthless unless truth is implied. and true is worthless unless its nonequivalence to false is regarded as desirable.
01:45 < xtalmath> so consistency is the most important thing, and we should formalize all belief systems into MetaMath
01:45 < xtalmath> thereby also gameifying reason, and making education dirt cheap
01:46 < justanotheruser> self indulgence promotes progress
01:46 < xtalmath> if society and schools of thought maintained explicit belief systems, then anyone who can prove true=false should be rewarded, as in such a belief system all statements can be proven both true and false
01:47 < xtalmath> BlueLobster: but I do agree with the concept of family needing to go, and I think I can imagine quite a good compromise, its a bit long to explain the system I envision, so I won't explain unless you really want to hear it...
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01:48 < xtalmath> BlueLobster: but I certainly do not believe sex with adults will enlighten children!
01:49 < xtalmath> with MetaMath, and a good visual interface, we could start a war on hypocrisy ;-)
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01:58 < BlueLobster> xtalmath: let's discuss tomorrow
01:59 < BlueLobster> practically speaking I do not mind the creche system
01:59 < xtalmath> in how many hours is that?
01:59 < xtalmath> I don't know the creche system
01:59 < BlueLobster> I can enterin you now, but only for under .8 hours
01:59 < BlueLobster> it's the idea that we can raise kids better collectively and that parental rights should be earned, if at all  bestowed
01:59 < xtalmath> oh
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02:35 < BlueLobster> xtalmath: you disagree?
02:36 < xtalmath> BlueLobster: at what age do most problems occur? the first 8 or after that?
02:37 < BlueLobster> define problem
02:37 < BlueLobster> are we looking at a simple mortality hazard model?
02:37 < BlueLobster> it's multimodal
02:37 < xtalmath> any kind of occurence that causes people to consider a different way of organizing childhood throughout society
02:38 < BlueLobster> I see
02:38 < BlueLobster> so we're envisioning a candidate society
02:38 < BlueLobster> a sample from many possible societies
02:38 < BlueLobster> with this system as opposed to others?
02:39 < xtalmath> there is always room for improvement, which requires debate. if not we could just scrap the whole concept of democracy
02:39 < BlueLobster> the women's right movement has been counterproductive in some ways
02:39 < BlueLobster> as it underlies the modern concept of a family
02:39 < BlueLobster> which is new
02:39 < BlueLobster> and more or less a lie
02:39 < BlueLobster> so I'd ay the risk is more or less immediate
02:39 < BlueLobster> you are telling females they are not mommy, they are incubators
02:40 < BlueLobster> they are of course welcome to participate
02:40 < fenn> why don't you work on artificial incubators instead of trying to boss people around
02:40 < BlueLobster> because I care about the people being bossed around
02:40 < BlueLobster> children
02:40 < BlueLobster> why is it legal to circumcise boys?
02:40 < BlueLobster> can't cut any other part of a child off legally
02:41 < BlueLobster> somehow baby boy dick is special
02:41 < BlueLobster> they seem to be a neglected class
02:41 < xtalmath> yes, I think the child as property of the parents is indirectly a result of the transition from nomadic to sedentary society. with things like industrial revolution (where parents who "have" more children can earn more by sending them to the factory) exacerbating the problem
02:41 < BlueLobster> also because I think we can move forward more quickly
02:41 < BlueLobster> if we do not respect family structures that are obssessed with their past actions
02:41 < BlueLobster> xtalmath: it's much more recent than that, as an actionable concept
02:41 < BlueLobster> as recent as 100 years
02:41 < xtalmath> BlueLobster: I fully agree that circumcision on boys is bad,
02:41 < BlueLobster> kids used to leave the family home pretty early
02:42 < BlueLobster> and work at a manor house or anywhere they could be gainfuly empluyed
02:42 < BlueLobster> the modern family is very very new
02:42 < BlueLobster> for the vast majority of classes of humans
02:42 < BlueLobster> xtalmath: let's just say it
02:42 < BlueLobster> circumcision on all genders is bad
02:42 < xtalmath> BlueLobster: but hey, even here where I grew up, I was circumcised against my will, and it was my biggest trauma. and then years later, you read the law and you realize its been illegal all the time
02:43 < BlueLobster> xtalmath: sorry.
02:43 < BlueLobster> there are a LOT of boys out there to protect
02:44 < xtalmath> BlueLobster: what are your thoughts on revenge?
02:44 < xtalmath> which is worse, revenge or propagation?
02:44 < BlueLobster> I only beleieve in prevention
02:44 < BlueLobster> but revenge can be useful as a means to prevention
02:44 < xtalmath> revenge can be a form of prevention
02:44 < xtalmath> exactly
02:44 < BlueLobster> if every boy cut the dick off the doctor who was paid to circumcise him
02:44 < BlueLobster> you wouldn't find a lot of circumcisers
02:45 < xtalmath> I have the impression you are trying to radicalize me ;)
02:45 < fenn> xtalmath: BlueLobster is a new member of the channel and his views are not representative of other channel members...
02:45 < xtalmath> fenn: I'm pretty sure my views are not representative of a lot of people either
02:45 < BlueLobster> fenn: do other channel members beliefe that the body itegrity of children should be up to the whims of their parents?
02:45 < xtalmath> but to me the circumcision thing is very personal
02:46 < BlueLobster> why is there ONE part of a kid that's legal to cut off?
02:46 < BlueLobster> for no medical reason
02:46 < BlueLobster> only on boys
02:46 < BlueLobster> don't be dumb
02:46 < fenn> i'd rather that this channel not turn into a hate spewing incitement to violence against $outgroup
02:46 < xtalmath> BlueLobster: here in Belgium, no operation on children is legal, unless to prevent death
02:47 < BlueLobster> fenn: outgroup here is only defined as those who mutilate children
02:47 < BlueLobster> or more genreally those who do not futher the transhumanist agenda
02:47 < fenn> you had a few other things in your list
02:47 < xtalmath> in practice, the law is a piece of paper, a vague guideline, with the most important thing being paying taxes
02:47 < BlueLobster> fenn: well the muslims have to go
02:47 < BlueLobster> they opporess women, they mutilate boys, they call forr the heads of those who do not tolerate them
02:47 < BlueLobster> they cry about intolerance when their intolerance is not tolerated
02:47 < BlueLobster> these are problems
02:48 < BlueLobster> as active transhumanists we have to address reality
02:48 < xtalmath> BlueLobster: I don't think muslim's have to go. People can believe what they want, but they should not be allowed to do everything they want.
02:50 < justanotheruser> first, time She was in my math class Long hair, brown skin with the fat ass Sat beside me, used to laugh, had mad jokes The teacher always got mad so we passed notes
02:50 < justanotheruser> FORREST HILL DRIVES = FIRE
02:50 < justanotheruser> *HILLS DRIVE
02:51 < fenn> i don't see how preventing circumcision will lead to immortality, transcendence etc
02:51 < xtalmath> BlueLobster: muslims didnt circumcise me, batshit crazy mother (who only recently I learned used to be a prostitute in the past), asshole stepfather (who laughed at me as I was forced to go to the hospital, all the while funding it, while acknowledging its undesirability), and possibly perverted, but probably just corrupt surgeon did this to me
02:51 < xtalmath> fenn: it won't
02:52 < BlueLobster> xtalmath: I'm inteerested in your ideas about how to limit the muslims
02:52 < BlueLobster> because the fundament of the current implmentation of their religion
02:52 < xtalmath> part of me believes, that if my mother had rebelled, and taken real revenge on whomever had wronged her, she would never have propagated this on me.
02:52 < BlueLobster> demands compliance
02:53 < BlueLobster> xtalmath: sorry about your dick.
02:53 < xtalmath> BlueLobster: what do you mean with limit? I believe education is the key
02:53 < BlueLobster> xtalmath: There are a lot of boys out there you can help.
02:53 < BlueLobster> xtalmath: how would you "educate" modern syria
02:53 < BlueLobster> I've been there
02:53 < BlueLobster> I fucking cry at night
02:53 < BlueLobster> because of what has happened to the country
02:54 < BlueLobster> not that my feelings matter
02:54 < BlueLobster> but I'm not sure you know what you're dealing with
02:54 < fenn> why were you in syria?
02:54 < BlueLobster> in terms of the people who must be bombed
02:54 < BlueLobster> fenn: to visit some of the unesco sites?
02:54 < xtalmath> "who must be bombed" ?
02:54 < BlueLobster> it was a long time ago
02:54 < BlueLobster> fifteen years the first time
02:55 < BlueLobster> damascus is one of the oldest outposts of civizliation in known creation
02:55 < xtalmath> BlueLobster: what is your background, where did you grow up? were your parents muslim?
02:55 < BlueLobster> those thigs are worth seeing
02:55 < BlueLobster> xtalmath: my parents have phds in different things, I have a phd in another thing
02:55 < BlueLobster> I went to school mostly in the usa
02:56 < BlueLobster> I've lived in the usa and in europe and not as much of asia as I'd like
02:56 < xtalmath> BlueLobster: why are you specifically focused on muslims circumcising boys?
02:56 < BlueLobster> I"m not
02:56 < BlueLobster> I'm mostly focused on killing all muslims immediately
02:56 < xtalmath> but why?
02:57 < BlueLobster> the cutting of boys is but one of many reasons
02:57 < BlueLobster> I think I've already mentioned this
02:57 < BlueLobster> they do not tolerate those who do not tolerate them
02:57 < BlueLobster> they DEMAND tolerance however
02:57 < BlueLobster> dhimmitude
02:57 < xtalmath> BlueLobster: I assume by now you are a US citizen, and you have been circumcised as well?
02:57 < BlueLobster> I do not which to be a dhimmi
02:57 < BlueLobster> nah my cock is ok
02:57 < BlueLobster> find me a muslim country that is adminstered properly
02:57 < BlueLobster> and I'll tell you it's either morocco who still hvae a king
02:58 < BlueLobster> or iraqi kurdistan which isn't an official country
02:58 < xtalmath> BlueLobster: find me a western country that is administered properly?
02:58 < BlueLobster> xtalmath: canada
02:58 < fenn> tunisia is apparently doing ok
02:58 < BlueLobster> tunisia is litle
02:58 < xtalmath> I'm sure plenty of boys in Canada are circumcised against their will too
02:58 < BlueLobster> and surrounded by the threat of horror
02:58 < BlueLobster> but yeat after ousting their longtime corrupt first family
02:59 < BlueLobster> and letting the rest of their corrupt higher society take over
02:59 < BlueLobster> tunisia is aces
02:59 < BlueLobster> xtalmath: the circumcision rate in canada is very low now
02:59 < BlueLobster> outside of ontario
02:59 < xtalmath> very low, but what about those others? the circumcision rate in belgium is supposedly very low too...
02:59 < fenn> BlueLobster: why do you think modern muslim countries are so terrible when it was the moors who sustained western civilization through the dark ages and initiated what would become the enlightenment?
02:59 < BlueLobster> pretty much all nonshitheads the world over have realized there's no reason to cut up boys cocks
03:00 < BlueLobster> fenn: so your question is why the muslim world backslid so much
03:00 < fenn> you are using circular definitions
03:00 < BlueLobster> I'm not sure I'd give so much credit to the moors
03:00 < BlueLobster> but it is demonstrable that the muslim world massively backslid
03:00 < fenn> yes i agree
03:01 < BlueLobster> fenn: to be honest, I thinbk the muslim world became upset about being used as a tourist paradise
03:01 < BlueLobster> treated like shit
03:01 < fenn> i'm just pointing out that there are examples of muslim societies that aren't terrible
03:01 < BlueLobster> ingoring their "honor"
03:01 < BlueLobster> by the west as it were
03:01 < BlueLobster> after we regained primacy
03:01 < BlueLobster> if you wante dto have sex with boys, for example, you can still do it in pakistan
03:02 < BlueLobster> there's an organized bitterness
03:02 < xtalmath> BlueLobster: I think it is less about tourism, and more about geostrategy and world resources.
03:02 < BlueLobster> about our imposd influenced in the region
03:02 < BlueLobster> predating world war one
03:02 < BlueLobster> but exacerbated by the borders we drew after world war one
03:02 < BlueLobster> that's my theory about the problem
03:03 < BlueLobster> we basically treated arab boys like whores
03:03 < BlueLobster> admittedly they are slutty :p
03:03 < xtalmath> "we" ?
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03:03 < BlueLobster> xtalmath: those of us with european origins
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03:03 < xtalmath> what do you mean with treating like whores?
03:04 < BlueLobster> I mean let's go to mosul
03:04 < BlueLobster> and I guarantee I can get boys to bring me tea
03:04 < xtalmath> you went to mosul and had sex with boys?
03:04 < xtalmath> why?
03:04 < fenn> it certainly wouldn't be a stretch to believe that
03:04 < BlueLobster> you may be missing the point
03:05 < xtalmath> i still have my foreskin though
03:05 < BlueLobster> although I prefer the kurds over all other varieties of muslim
03:05 < BlueLobster> my kurds are not even all muslim
03:05 < BlueLobster> xtalmath: if that's true I'm happy for you
03:05 < BlueLobster> did she have it split up the middle
03:05 < BlueLobster> due to phimosis?
03:05 < BlueLobster> better than cutting it off
03:06 < xtalmath> "phimosis" before puberty, is like diagnosing a girl with "too small tits" before puberty
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03:07 < BlueLobster> xtalmath: maybe you hav met the number two crusdaer for not chopping up boy dick
03:07 < BlueLobster> on the planet
03:07 < BlueLobster> if that's true, you'd have to be number one
03:07 < BlueLobster> cheers
03:07 < xtalmath> it didn't cause problems yet, and 12/13 years before I was circumcised the first series of papers came out detailing non-surgical methods to treat phimosis (cortico steroids)
03:08 < BlueLobster> there are a lot of options
03:08 < BlueLobster> you can just make a little snip
03:08 < xtalmath> it is how I eventually treated it
03:08 < BlueLobster> not cut anything off
03:08 < xtalmath> the little snip is the same as the partial circumcision
03:08 < BlueLobster> the steroids are much more usful  if they are applied when they boy is pretty small
03:08 < BlueLobster> also he should just jerk off more
03:09 < xtalmath> but the lengthwise cut also has its problems (basic geometry)
03:09 < BlueLobster> if you do the snip on the top you don't really damage the frenulum
03:09 < xtalmath> phimosis should be only possible to diagnose after puberty
03:09 < BlueLobster> boys should just masurbate more
03:09 < BlueLobster> the biggest problem is boys being afraid of playing with their dicks
03:10 < xtalmath> BlueLobster: you agree that you can view the foreskin as a cylindrical piece of skin simplistically speaking?
03:10 < BlueLobster> xtalmath: I can utilize the construct to envision what you're talking about
03:11 < xtalmath> BlueLobster: well if you make a lengthwise cut, and then sow one side of the cut onto itself and the same for the other side, think about how much angle there is on each of the 4 points?
03:12 < BlueLobster> xtalmath: yeah I'm not happy about that
03:12 < BlueLobster> I'm just sayting if a boy's foreskin is really tight you can make a snip without removing any tissue
03:13 < xtalmath> a normal point in the plane has 360 degrees. the ends of the cut now have 720 degrees, and the 2 seperated points in the middle now only have 180 degrees. so instead of the metric being euclidean, you now have points with hyperbolic and elliptical geometry
03:13 < BlueLobster> there's no reason to go cutting off all of the other parts of the dick
03:14 < xtalmath> that means it wont really roll over itself well, and it grabs condom, which rips faster, which is not fun to explain to girls who think you are somehow doing this on purpouse...
03:14 < BlueLobster> xtalmath: butit means you keep your frenulum
03:14 < BlueLobster> and the ridged band
03:16 < xtalmath> BlueLobster: what I am saying is, even without removing tissue, it can become a real trauma. especially before puberty, a child has not had real voluntary sexual relationships. every reference to and act of sex is now associated with this trauma, of surgery,
03:16 < justanotheruser> I guess my trolling didn't derail BlueLobsters trolling :(
03:16 < BlueLobster> xtalmath: my godson is 9 and is still a little tight
03:16 < BlueLobster> his doctor thinks he should jerk off more
03:16 < xtalmath> BlueLobster: thats like saying circumcision is ok, at least the glans is intact, compared to female circumcision...
03:17 < BlueLobster> xtalmath: I mean if they have a real physical problem
03:17 < BlueLobster> like erections are painful
03:17 < BlueLobster> maybe it's time to do something
03:17 < BlueLobster> I need to talk to my godson
03:17 < BlueLobster> he's not very motile for his age
03:17 < xtalmath> BlueLobster: not if it isn't painful, and even if it is, remember circumcision is by definition painful.
03:17 < BlueLobster> which can lead to problems
03:17 < BlueLobster> xtalmath: I'm just going to tell him to fucking jerk it more
03:18 < xtalmath> also, with "just the snip" the child will have to piss alongside the wound for a couple of weeks, which hurts as hell
03:18 < BlueLobster> xtalmath: pretty muchg planning to avoidthat
03:18 < BlueLobster> his mom is freaking out but he has no painful urination or inflammation
03:19 < BlueLobster> he's just not as motile as he should be
03:19 < BlueLobster> he needs to jerk it more
03:19 < xtalmath> why is his mother freaking out? and what do you exactly refer to with motile?
03:19 < xtalmath> he doesn't need to jerk on command, wtf is up with that?
03:19 < BlueLobster> she wasn't onboard with him not being cut in the first place
03:19 < xtalmath> now we are getting at the root of the problem
03:20 < BlueLobster> well he isn't
03:20 < BlueLobster> and intend to save all of his penis
03:20 < xtalmath> why does his mother insist he gets circumcised?
03:20 < BlueLobster> she doesn't yet
03:20 < BlueLobster> she did originallybecause that's what she as used to
03:20 < BlueLobster> now it's "becoming a problem"
03:20 < BlueLobster> nine fucking years later
03:21 < xtalmath> slow down, I can't follow what you are saying
03:21 < xtalmath> why does the mother see it as a problem?
03:21 < BlueLobster> what I'm saying is that dad was cut like most americans
03:21 < BlueLobster> and I convinced dad and mom to not do it
03:21 < xtalmath> great!
03:21 < BlueLobster> it's a problem because he's 9 and not very much retraction
03:21 < BlueLobster> of the foreskin
03:22 < xtalmath> BlueLobster: that is entirely normal
03:22 < BlueLobster> xtalmath: not that normal
03:22 < BlueLobster> fewer than 10 percent of kids are non-retractile by his age
03:22 < BlueLobster> you can trust me
03:22 < xtalmath> 10% is a lot
03:22 < BlueLobster> I'm a statistician
03:22 < BlueLobster> dude
03:22 < BlueLobster> he's not going to get his dick chopped off because people are ignorant
03:23 < BlueLobster> I would have to be killed first
03:23 < xtalmath> he might because people want to earn money
03:23 < BlueLobster> yeah
03:23 < BlueLobster> I'm in a good position to influence this situation.
03:23 < xtalmath> or because mother secretly harbors a fetish
03:23 < BlueLobster> oh she hates his foreskin
03:24 < BlueLobster> but I think if he just jerks off a bit... anyway there's no reason to have ANY surgery if he's not in pain
03:24 < BlueLobster> also we should kill all muslims
03:25 < xtalmath> BlueLobster: just tell her the following analogy: everyone has a small inflammation of the eyelid every now and then (like at the root of an eyelash swelling), thats not a reason to cut off your eyelids. even if it prevents future inflammation of the eyelids
03:25 < BlueLobster> dude he hasn't even had any issues
03:25 < BlueLobster> his doctor just says it doesn't move enough according to his last visit
03:26 < BlueLobster> they just want to hack it off
03:26 < BlueLobster> I know
03:26 < BlueLobster> I will not allow this.
03:26 < xtalmath> BlueLobster: has the child seen porn?
03:26 < BlueLobster> xtalmath: he's had some erections
03:26 < BlueLobster> he calls them "gross"
03:26 < xtalmath> personally I don't think its a good idea check it as a parent
03:26 < BlueLobster> this upsetsme and I want to find out why
03:26 < BlueLobster> why is an erection "gross"
03:27 < BlueLobster> we're getting to the bottom of this later
03:27 < fluffypony> as a kid I thought girls had germs and I had to avoid them
03:27 < BlueLobster> yeah but
03:27 < BlueLobster> I dunnoas a kid
03:27 < fluffypony> kids think stupid crap
03:27 < BlueLobster> I was jerking off long before I thought about girls or boys
03:27 < xtalmath> perhaps he doesn't like doctors _trying_ to retract his foreskin, and his protest was interpreted as pain...
03:27 < BlueLobster> obviously it feels good to him in a way that makes him uncomfortable
03:28 < BlueLobster> playing with it I mean
03:28 < BlueLobster> I've kept him uncut for 9 years
03:28 < BlueLobster> I intend to keep it that way until I die :p
03:28 < fenn> with god as my witness... yadda yadda
03:28 < BlueLobster> fenn: fine fine
03:28 < BlueLobster> noody else is really chatting
03:28 < BlueLobster> you want to get back on topic?
03:28 < fenn> not really
03:29 < BlueLobster> we didn't mean to turn this into ##boydick
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03:29 < fenn> well your idea of "on topic" is telling everyone how much they suck and that we should be bombing people
03:29 < xtalmath> BlueLobster: I think 9 is quite early for all this
03:29 < BlueLobster> although I think it's important because (maybe I"m wrong) successful transhumanism would probably not result in parents making irrevocable and unnecessary modifications to their kids' genitalia
03:30 < xtalmath> BlueLobster: I think you are entirely right
03:30 < fenn> successful transhumanism would mean being trivial to grow it back and also edit your memories so that it never happened
03:30 < BlueLobster> fenn: we will never realize that
03:31 < BlueLobster> but we could do things to make it more likely
03:31 < BlueLobster> this is my problem with this channel
03:31 < BlueLobster> everyone wants to ascend
03:31 < BlueLobster> you're going to fucking die, get over it
03:31 < BlueLobster> but you can do some good work while you're here
03:31 < fenn> fuck you i'm living forever
03:31 < BlueLobster> going to fucking die
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03:31 < fenn> troll
03:31 < BlueLobster> I'm not a troll sir
03:31 < fenn> you are definitely a troll
03:31 < BlueLobster> I just favor humanity more than humans
03:32 < fenn> that's fine
03:32 < xtalmath> fenn: I think growing a new foreskin is not so trivial
03:32 < BlueLobster> you're just a regular humanist or maybe someone delusional who thinkshe can live forever
03:32 < BlueLobster> you will die, much much sooner than 100 years from now.
03:32 < BlueLobster> but not everyone has to
03:33 < fenn> why do you even care if future generations can live forever
03:33 < BlueLobster> we can give a better future to our children's children's children's whatevers
03:33 < BlueLobster> because I have a big heart
03:33 < xtalmath> fenn: and the edit memories even if possible will have its drawbacks. traumas impact your life in many negative ways, but also explain some of your behaviour, if you remove the explanation youll wake up with a past that contains unmotivated actions...
03:33 < BlueLobster> I care about more than just myself
03:33 < BlueLobster> I care about my godson
03:33 < BlueLobster> I care about his kids
03:33 < fenn> xtalmath: any memory editing will do that
03:34 < BlueLobster> I have accepted, being a realsistic person
03:34 < BlueLobster> that my death is inevitale
03:34 < BlueLobster> but that I can do things to preent it for someone in he future
03:34 < xtalmath> fenn: so memory editing entails problems
03:34 < fenn> yeah it's like lying
03:34 < BlueLobster> this channel isn't about transhumanism
03:35 < BlueLobster> it's about living a fantasy
03:35 < fenn> why are you here
03:35 < xtalmath> i wasn't here for transhumanism at all, just for technology
03:35 < BlueLobster> fenn: maybe I CAn find someone to help
03:35 < fenn> go troll stormfront
03:35 < xtalmath> im happy I passed by here, someone gave me a great link to using bluray optics for microfabrication!
03:36 < BlueLobster> xtalmath: do you think that sufficiently many technologies will be achieved in your lifetime?
03:36 < BlueLobster> people here are about prolonging life
03:36 < BlueLobster> there is no evidence that you can prolong life as a human through any choices you make
03:36 < BlueLobster> other than eliminating the very unhealthy ones
03:36 < BlueLobster> they're about amximizing their intellectual potential
03:36 < BlueLobster> that ship sailed when they were 12
03:36 < BlueLobster> what about doing what we can while we're here?
03:36 < xtalmath> BlueLobster: not sure, but I can imagine scanning frozen brains can someday be run on software
03:37 < BlueLobster> xtalmath: I've sectioned frozen brains on a microtome before
03:37 < BlueLobster> do you have any idea how much damage the freezing process cause?
03:37 < BlueLobster> causes
03:37 < xtalmath> but I don't think I would like that, since I would have no proof that my instance would be the only copy running
03:38 < xtalmath> BlueLobster: I don't
03:38 < BlueLobster> Everyone on this channel will die within their life expectancy, plus or minus a few standard deviations
03:38 < fenn> thank you nostradamus
03:39 < fenn> you truly are a statistician
03:39 < xtalmath> BlueLobster: I am interested in the kinds of damage
03:39 < BlueLobster> no I actually am :p
03:39 < BlueLobster> xtalmath: well your brain, the organ of you I guess
03:39 < xtalmath> when did you section frozen brains on a microtome?
03:39 < BlueLobster> very mch captures you in its shape
03:39 < BlueLobster> mostly in the 90s
03:39 < BlueLobster> I came up in the neurosciences
03:40 < xtalmath> what do you mean with capturing in shape?
03:40 < BlueLobster> well
03:40 < fenn> the connectome determines your personality
03:40 < BlueLobster> you understand your brain is a bunch of little fatty bags
03:40 < fenn> it's the set of connections between neurons
03:40 < xtalmath> connectome being the connectivity graph of the neurons?
03:40 < fenn> right
03:40 < BlueLobster> floating in saltwater
03:40 < BlueLobster> there's a lot going on inside the fatty bags
03:41 < BlueLobster> but their shapes at LEAST determines how they connect
03:41 < BlueLobster> when you freeze things ice crysyals form
03:41 < BlueLobster> and destroy fine structure
03:41 < BlueLobster> they turn things mushy
03:41 < xtalmath> again I fail to understand what you mean with shape of the neurons?
03:41 < BlueLobster> your mushy brain contins far less information
03:41 < BlueLobster> than your present brain
03:41 < fenn> if the neurons are not touching they can't connect
03:41 < fenn> the shape determines whether they are touching or not
03:42 < BlueLobster> xtalmath: imagine if we were all an organ of thought
03:42 < xtalmath> are you saying the axons dissapear when frozen?
03:42 < BlueLobster> you, me, fenn
03:42 < BlueLobster> we can all tickle each other
03:42 < BlueLobster> but only in precise places
03:42 < BlueLobster> I'm saying the dendrites in fucking particular are going to be obliterated
03:42 < BlueLobster> the axons are not my problem
03:42 < BlueLobster> (in most parts of the brain)
03:43 < BlueLobster> you can only communicate me by tickling fenn's little toe
03:43 < fenn> hee
03:43 < BlueLobster> but fenn's little toe was just amputated beause he got frostbite
03:43 < fenn> nothing disappears, it just gets ripped apart and you can't tell which dendrite was connected to which axon
03:44 < BlueLobster> information has disapearead
03:44 < xtalmath> what I never understood about the connectome, is where are the neuronal weights in the brain? is that like number of synapses? or the kind of chemicals a synapse emits? or is it like length and diameter of dendrites (almost like a resistor)?
03:44 < BlueLobster> if you write a note with pen on ink and submerge it in water
03:44 < BlueLobster> the ink is still there
03:44 < BlueLobster> the paperis still there
03:44 < BlueLobster> the information is gone
03:44 < fenn> philosophy
03:44 < BlueLobster> if we can fucking reverse a frozen brain to functional form
03:44 < BlueLobster> the future is awesome
03:45 < BlueLobster> and I want my brain frozen
03:45 < BlueLobster> like right now
03:45 < BlueLobster> because I don't want to risk it being damaged otherwise
03:45 < fenn> xtalmath: mostly it's the concentration of synapses in a particular place on the cell membrane of a dendrite
03:45 < BlueLobster> xtalmath: a synapse is just a space
03:45 < BlueLobster> a gap between cells
03:45 < fenn> er, neurotransmitter receptor proteins
03:45 < xtalmath> does this occur with every freezing fluid? or is some kind of "invar" fluid possible?
03:46 < BlueLobster> xtalmath: your brain is unfortunately full of salty water
03:46 < BlueLobster> it's going to be hard to freeze your brain without dealing with that
03:46 < BlueLobster> it's even harder than this
03:46 < BlueLobster> the distribution of salts in that water is HOW YOU THINK
03:46 < fenn> xtalmath: there's been some progress with vitrification, in which no crystals form
03:47 < BlueLobster> so a bit of sodium over here and a bit of potassium over here
03:47 < BlueLobster> is quite literally what makes you you
03:47 < fenn> meh
03:47 < fenn> ion concentrations are transitory
03:48 < xtalmath> BlueLobster: with salt distribution now you mean the current excitation pattern on the brain?
03:48 < BlueLobster> the transition of ion concentrations is literally what you are experiencing
03:48 < BlueLobster> if e froze you and rebooted you
03:48 < BlueLobster> you eouldn'ty even be you
03:48 < BlueLobster> you'd be something that thought like you
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03:48 < BlueLobster> your stream of conscious experience would be obliterated
03:48 < fenn> it's like firing patterns, the electrical activity is transitory but it's generated by other things
03:48 < BlueLobster> you'd be something else
03:48 < xtalmath> BlueLobster: in that sense, a person before light concussion is not the same as after,... but good enough for me
03:49 < BlueLobster> fenn: the STATES of the neurons are what matters is many cases
03:49 < xtalmath> so what if some short term memory is lost...
03:49 < fenn> afaik the brain doesn't have any flip flop circuits
03:49 < BlueLobster> xtalmath: if I obliterated you and made an exact copy out of your bits
03:49 < BlueLobster> and it really thought it was you
03:49 < BlueLobster> but the you you died and never felt anything ever again
03:49 < BlueLobster> would that be a satisfactory outcome?
03:50 < xtalmath> that is exactly what I expected of the neural replication
03:50 < fenn> welcome to identity 101, class is in session
03:50 < BlueLobster> it's a fun thought problem
03:50 < fenn> where are the beliefs located in a thermostat
03:50 < BlueLobster> but if we freeze your fucking brain
03:50 < BlueLobster> assuming we can even reboot it
03:51 < BlueLobster> I would presume that's mor elike being smashed by an oldschool TOS transporter
03:51 < xtalmath> BlueLobster: from a multiverse standpoint, this is happening every second. all points in the universe's phase space are valid, and nearly all transitions are possible. we are always modified copies of the moment before
03:51 < BlueLobster> than having your "thought patterns held in quantum whatever the fcuk the rest of this explanation is"
03:51 < BlueLobster> this is one of the reasons why I don't give fuck all about extant humans and think we should just focus on future humans
03:52 < fenn> so if you beamed down to the planet surface, is that a "future human" in your eyes?
03:52 < fenn> just another guy
03:52 < BlueLobster> fenn: by TOS rule?  yes
03:52 < xtalmath> TOS rule?
03:53 < BlueLobster> TNG has some mechanism whjere they maintain "your neural patterns"
03:53 < BlueLobster> in the "warp matrix" or something
03:53 < fenn> i thought all the the star trek transporters worked according to the same principles
03:53 < BlueLobster> no
03:53 < BlueLobster> TOs and TNG post are different
03:53 < fenn> post?
03:53 < BlueLobster> TNG, DS9, Voyager
03:54 < BlueLobster> so yes, according to TOS mythology
03:54 < BlueLobster> kirk has been smashed to death and recreated many times
03:55 < BlueLobster> also they have replicators
03:55 < BlueLobster> if I can make oe of you why can't I make two of you?
03:55 < xtalmath> I remember reading about fMRI or similar on frozen cells
03:55 < BlueLobster> which one gets to keep your stream of consciousness?
03:55 < fenn> because that would introduce terrible ethical problems that nobody wants to think about
03:55 < xtalmath> I had the impression they could see all cell structures like microtubuli and membrane proteins
03:55 < BlueLobster> fenn: hi, maybe we've never met before
03:55 < fenn> there was a TNG episode about this exact problem, where there was riker and shipwrecked riker from 8 years ago
03:55 < BlueLobster> earlier I was talking about how we should legislate sex with 0 year olds
03:55 < xtalmath> so what about fMRI & microtome?
03:56 < BlueLobster> welcome to complex ethical problems nobody WANTS to talk about
03:56 < BlueLobster> fmri is a field I trust apporoximately notwhere
03:56 < BlueLobster> lots of nice data
03:56 < BlueLobster> don't mind the technology
03:56 < xtalmath> BlueLobster: I mean fMRI on the frozen brain
03:56 < fenn> well it's illegal to have sex with 0 year olds, and it's probably illegal to replicate people according to the hypothetical federation law code
03:57 < BlueLobster> but blood oxygenation is not necessarily comptmporanio
03:57 < xtalmath> not fMRI on the living person
03:57 < BlueLobster> fenn: it should not be de facto illegal to fuck newborns
03:57 < BlueLobster> if the newborns can pass the test for consent
03:57 < BlueLobster> hell it should not be de jure illegal
03:57 < BlueLobster> there should be no age of consent
03:57 < xtalmath> BlueLobster, fMRI can see way more than blood oxygenation, if it doesnt have to be real time and the brain is static (frozen) it can resolve individual atoms I think
03:58 < BlueLobster> xtalmath: fmri can't see that much
03:58 < fenn> lawmakers are not smart enough to come up with "the test"
03:58 < BlueLobster> it can see structure
03:58 < BlueLobster> not the position of every goddamned second messenger detached in a cell
03:58 < BlueLobster> it can't even see individual cells
03:58 < BlueLobster> fmri isn't going to save you
03:58 < fenn> many adults would fail the test and complain and vote for the other politician next time
03:58 < BlueLobster> fenn: good nes
03:58 < BlueLobster> news
03:58 < BlueLobster> I am in favor of a test for enfranchisement
03:59 < BlueLobster> those people will not be voting :)
03:59 < fenn> i don't think enfranchisement should be a boolean yes/no
03:59 < BlueLobster> how would you handle it?
03:59 < fenn> sets of rights and responsibilities based on ability
04:00 < fenn> i'm really more of an anarchist though
04:00 < fenn> too many laws already
04:00 < BlueLobster> I Thought we were transhumanists
04:00 < BlueLobster> anarchy is going to make whoever squats the most kick in your door and rape your children
04:00 < BlueLobster> not the outcome I favour
04:02 < BlueLobster> unless your children are 17 year old boys and I live next door
04:02 < xtalmath> BlueLobster: ok I think it wasnt MRI then: http://www.researchgate.net/publication/230733347_FIBSEM_tomography_with_TEM-like_resolution_for_3D_imaging_of_high-pressure_frozen_cells
04:03 < xtalmath> BlueLobster: I don't need saving, as I said, I don't think i would like to live in a world where I can't prove myself I am not being run in some sadistic simulation
04:04 < xtalmath> BlueLobster: I am an anarchist, and I think you misunderstand the concept of anarchism, its basically about leaderlessness
04:04 < BlueLobster> xtalmath: you understand that what makes you you is the precise chemical action of every molecule in hundreds of millions of nerons right?
04:04 < BlueLobster> and every neuron is iself composed of hundreds of millions of molecules?
04:04 < BlueLobster> preserving your state is going to be fucking hard
04:05 < BlueLobster> I do not believe that leaderlessness is an equilibrium.
04:05 < fenn> i'd love to get you in a room with russ nelson
04:05 < xtalmath> BlueLobster: I also understand that a persons exact chemical composition now and an hour later are very different, yet we still call them the same person
04:05 < BlueLobster> Your little headless estate will be destroyed by my fiefdom.
04:06 < BlueLobster> There is an economy of scale for individuals to submit to their rulers.
04:06 < xtalmath> BlueLobster: the concept of democracy is actually very anarchist
04:06 < BlueLobster> xtalmath: anarchists don't hve bombers
04:06 < BlueLobster> states do
04:06 < xtalmath> I am also a democrat, and a liberal
04:06 < BlueLobster> you know what happens when you don't have bombers and someone else does?
04:07 < xtalmath> an anarchist state could have bombers, but might only use them for peaceful nuclear explosions
04:07 < BlueLobster> ahem
04:07 < BlueLobster> anarchist state
04:07 < justanotheruser> BlueLobster: are you sponsoring the channel
04:07 < justanotheruser> the topic seems to imply it
04:08 < BlueLobster> justanotheruser: if this channel could be good at something other than pretending it'll live forever
04:08 < BlueLobster> I might consider it
04:10 < justanotheruser> you get answers like that when you ask about philosophy and not research
04:10 < BlueLobster> I"m vastly more intereted in policy
04:10 < BlueLobster> and action
04:11 < BlueLobster> correct my if I'm wrong
04:11 < justanotheruser> this is more of an action channel than a policy channel from what I've seen
04:11 < BlueLobster> but this channel is not overflowing with professors with well endowed labs at prestigious universities
04:11 < BlueLobster> it seems like we could impact the world more by promoting research than by doing it
04:12 < BlueLobster> transhumanism is not a table top science
04:12 < justanotheruser> Maybe there should be ##hplusroadmap-research-promotion-division
04:12 < BlueLobster> well look
04:12 < BlueLobster> if there is research to be actually fucking promoted
04:12 < BlueLobster> let's have it
04:12 < BlueLobster> that k-person is going to make me read things again
04:12 < justanotheruser> I'm more interested in D and reading other peoples R
04:13 < justanotheruser> oh no, not reading things
04:13 < BlueLobster> srsly
04:13 < justanotheruser> we need a youtube video explained by an enthusiastic female voice with an animation of words being drawn for you
04:13 < fenn> an enthusiastic 17 year old boy's voice
04:15 < fenn> justanotheruser: at one time we had a #hplusroadmap-dev channel specifically focused on projects we were doing
04:17 < fenn> also there is plenty of tabletop science to be done
04:18 < BlueLobster> can I be in charge of casting the voice actors
04:22 < justanotheruser> fenn: is dead
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05:25 < kanzure> xtalmath: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/
05:25 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KfXY2SvlmQ
05:25 < yoleaux> ABB Robotics - Introducing YuMi. World's first truly collaborative robot. - YouTube
05:26 < kanzure> lsparrish: http://gnusha.org/skdb/
05:30 < xtalmath> kanzure: you already showed me the YuMi vid
05:38 < kanzure> xtalmath: http://diyhpl.us/laser_etcher/laser_etcher/
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05:39 < xtalmath> that is for the blu ray laser right?
05:40 < kanzure> "you woulnd't be you" nobody gives a shit, freeze me up scotty
05:40 < xtalmath> I was thinking of using flex hinges, since there wouldn't be any friction stick-slip...
05:41 < xtalmath> its also potentially simpler
05:41 < kanzure> "illegal to have sex with 0 year olds" how about eggs though
05:42 < xtalmath> at sizes of square cm or so, the flex wouldn't have to be very long to have negligible depth variation
05:44 < kanzure> BlueLobster: policy is worthless, if you wont do anything then why do you think you can convince others to do anything? the reason why transhumanism sucks is because hplusmagazine is a stupid idea- making a magazine wont make people magically show up that have skills. you have to brainwash people into learning electronics, programming, molecular biology, how to operate a fucking autoclave, etc.
05:45 < kanzure> BlueLobster: i don't think that killing everyone is a productive plan, but if you want to blow up the planet with me then let's talk.
05:46 < kanzure> xtalmath: the reason i linked to microfluidics is because of your apparent interest in micromanipulators and single-cell manipulation. microfluidics makes that a little bit easier than making nano-precision gantries.
05:48 < xtalmath> ah yeah, I see. well the scale of the micromanipulators will start out with a mere 1/10 to start, and then try to decrease in steps, like 5 sizes per decade or so
05:48 < xtalmath> and I will try to make a mini workshop at each scale, drill press, etc
05:50 < kanzure> feynman wrote a wildly famous essay where he said that what you want is impossible
05:51 < xtalmath> if I can fit a hand in 10 cm x 10cm x 10cm I could fit 1000 of them in a cubic metre
05:51 < xtalmath> it is impossible from a certain point on
05:51 < kanzure> just kidding. he said possible, not impossible.
05:51 < xtalmath> one merely has to look at insect claws etc to know you can go quite small
05:51 < kanzure> why not just use insect claws?
05:52 < xtalmath> because I dont know how to make them
05:52 < xtalmath> or control them
05:52 < kanzure> you breed insects, duh?
05:52 < kanzure> microelectrode arrays, probably
05:53 < kanzure> i think you can skip a few generations if you use photolithography and chemical etching of planar mems machine tools
05:53 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/mems/
05:53 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/optics/photolithography/
05:53 < xtalmath> well, my suspicion is that lots of microfabrication companies started out with micromanipulators, to build their machines, and it is one of their semisecrets
05:54 < xtalmath> kanzure, and then what, when I have the tiny parts? how do I assemble them? ... and sometimes you need parts in a mesoscale, then what? nah I would rather have the whole dynamic range to as small as I can get myself, than jump to the smallest scale and stay dependent...
05:54 < kanzure> most of the mems companies are just using previous-generation photolithography shit
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05:55 < xtalmath> how are tiny wires bonded?
05:55 < kanzure> photopolymers
05:55 < xtalmath> with microfabrication I don't only mean chips, it could also mean tiny wirewound resistors, or inductors, or ...
05:55 < kanzure> lasers with small spot sizes
05:56 < kanzure> and high mW/mm^2
05:58  * kanzure looks for breakfast
05:59 < xtalmath> still, I would prefer micromanipulators, it will also make the whole field more accessible to hobbyists, children and artists, like think about PureData or Arduino, merely giving the impression manipulation at the scale is easy (by having tiny hands) will encourage many. think how kids and artists got mindfucked that arduino "sketching" isnt programming.
05:59 < xtalmath> the reality is many people were disgusted by their science teachers, or their methods
05:59 < kanzure> arduino isn't my fault
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06:13 < kanzure> eudoxia: sup
06:14 < eudoxia> kanzure: studying for a physics exam
06:15 < kanzure> just remember that everything is spherical cow, even spherical cow
06:15 < eudoxia> in vacuo
06:15 < kanzure> right
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06:27 < kanzure> cluckj: we have replaced your insulin with a placebo, hope you're okay with this
06:28 < cluckj> dude it was supposed to be double-blind
06:28 < cluckj> the science is ruined now
06:29 < cluckj> :<
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06:40 < cluckj> again lol @ scrollback
06:40 < cluckj> this is getting to be a nice part of my morning
06:56 < cluckj> I usually avoid the places where the 22 year old redditor does an ethnic cleansing troll
06:56 < kanzure> back in my day that was age 14
06:56 < xtalmath> kanzure: I guess the blu-ray module could be used to optically scan a surface as well, with one of the present beamsplitters
06:57 < cluckj> kanzure, yeah I'm being generous
06:57 < cluckj> times have changed
06:57 < cluckj> maybe that says something about the intellectual complexity of it?
06:58 < kanzure> or how angry i was
06:58 < cluckj> lol
06:59 < kanzure> xtalmath: even in laserwrite mode you would still have to scan it over the surface, i don't understand
06:59 < xtalmath> yes, still scanning
07:01 < kanzure> someone should hook up wolfram alpha to https://console.ng.bluemix.net/solutions/watson
07:01 < xtalmath> I thought it was interesting how the paper said even 100nm resolution could be achieved, because thermal activation  is bigger in the center of the spot
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07:15 < xtalmath> kanzure: you have a link to science direct for "An ultrarapid method of creating 3D channels and microstructures" but I see pdf fulltext is online now: http://jla.sagepub.com/content/10/1/24.full.pdf+html
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07:18 < kanzure> i have a link?
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09:05 < chris_99> nmz787, are you about per chance
09:57 < nmz787_i> hey
09:58 < nmz787_i> chris_99: ^
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09:58 < chris_99> hey, iirc you did some work on shape recognition didn't you? just wondering what alg you used
10:00 < nmz787_i> yea
10:01 < nmz787_i> did some blob recognition, did some panorama stictching type stuff
10:02 < chris_99> ah, so i'm guessing you thresholded, then did the blob detection? it didn't say then, tag blobs as 'rectangle' etc.?
10:07 < nmz787_i> umm, i don't think I tagged them as rectangles... if anything i noted their circumference to extrapolate a Z depth in the image
10:07 < chris_99> aha okey dokey
10:08 < nmz787_i> or maybe i mean diameter
10:09 < nmz787_i> i may have done a locally adaptive thresholding
10:15 < chris_99> just working on decoding data from a magstripe visually, i'm gonna play with hough lines now i think
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10:53 < kanzure> http://www.esma.europa.eu/consultation/Investment-using-virtual-currency-or-distributed-ledger-technology#responses
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11:29 < juri_> nmz787: you have a SEM too?
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11:49 < delinquentme_> our chat room is sponsored by lobsters >_<
11:49 < delinquentme_> longevity bros.
11:49 < delinquentme_> our curstacean chums
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11:58 < nmz787_i> juri_: ya
11:58 < nmz787_i> chris_99: magstripe? are you scattering iron/magnetic particles on a magnetic-strip and taking a picture of the field lines?
11:59 < nmz787_i> juri_: so what was that about an undefined var? the one you pointed me to seemed like it was a function parameter
12:00 < nmz787_i> or were you saying there was some bug in your .escad loader/compiler?
12:00 < nmz787_i> compiler/interpreter
12:00 < chris_99> yup - https://www.anfractuosity.com/files/card/IMG_0284.JPG and here is my little thing picking up the stripes now - https://www.anfractuosity.com/files/card/figure_1.png
12:00 < nmz787_i> neat!
12:01 < nmz787_i> your image might benefit from (i think its called contraction then dilation)
12:01 < nmz787_i> to separate the columns from bleeding together like they are
12:03 < chris_99> ah interesting, even when they do bleed, it seems to detect it ok though, if you see the blue blobs they're separate 'stripes'
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12:42 < juri_> nmz787_i: i'm taking the word of the compiler. i'll manually inspect later today.
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14:09 < erasmus> does anyone in here have an Alpha-Stim?
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14:32 < erasmus> I'll take that as a no.
14:32 < erasmus> anyone do any transcranial direct-current stimulation?
14:58 < xtalmath> chris_99: you can use polarization to view magnetization of a surface as well
14:58 < chris_99> yeah, using garnite wafers you mean?
14:59 < chris_99> i looked at some prices and they're very expensive, like $2k
15:00 < chris_99> *garnet
15:02 < xtalmath> uhm
15:04 < xtalmath> magneto optical kerr effect
15:04 < chris_99> yeah you use garnet indictor films
15:04 < chris_99> for it
15:05 < chris_99> oh wait this could be a different effect
15:05 < xtalmath> no you just need polarizing beam splitter
15:05 < xtalmath> some lenses
15:06 < xtalmath> 2 polarizers
15:06 < xtalmath> field aperture, diafragm
15:06 < xtalmath> its non invasive
15:07 < chris_99> oh neat
15:07 < chris_99> http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-94-007-1007-8_35
15:07 < chris_99> is what i meant
15:07 < chris_99> i'll look into that cheers
15:08 < xtalmath> you can find what I described in the section "magneto-optic imaging systems" in the book "practical opto-electronics" by protopopov, its a book I recently read
15:08 < chris_99> neat thanks
15:09 < xtalmath> its also supposedly findable on the interwebs
15:09 < chris_99> heh
15:10 < chris_99> so it's literally just two polarisers and a laser?
15:10 < xtalmath> such system is also used to optically read out HDD platters
15:10 < chris_99> looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magneto-optic_Kerr_effect#/media/File:Setup_Magneto-Optic-Kerr-Effect_A.png
15:12 < xtalmath> chris_99: that would work for large surface magnetized in same direction, but is not an imaging system!
15:13 < xtalmath> for the imaging system I really recommend you check out protopopov's book
15:13 < chris_99> okey dokey, will do
15:14 < xtalmath> with PBS, both the illumination, and returned image beam travel parallel to optical axis of objective lens by means of a PBS (polarizing beam splitter)
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15:15 < xtalmath> chris_99: it all depends on what you want to do and how fast
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15:17 < chris_99> mmm, at the moment i don't need very high res, like you'd get with the kerr effect presumably, but it sounds very interesting, and i've got an optical microscope which would be fun to adapt if i could
15:17 < xtalmath> how many tapes are there to be digitized? once digitized, do the old tapes matter or not? if in a hurry, what will cost more time: making the optical setup? or continuing with powder?
15:18 < xtalmath> optical is faster in the long run, since you wont have to apply powder, but building the setup will cost you some time
15:18 < chris_99> mmm
15:19 < chris_99> i was curious if there would be any magnetic traces from zeroed files, with something like a floppy disk too (maybe there isn't)
15:19 < xtalmath> so you are trying to digitize the vertical stripes? i.e. store their widths?
15:20 < chris_99> yeah i'm simply trying to decode the data from them, it's BMC encoded apparently
15:24 < xtalmath> oh this is like a magnetic swipe card?
15:24 < chris_99> yeah
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15:58 < ryankarason> OK few
15:59 < ryankarason> whoops.. held down alt key whilst typing =P
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16:12 < nmz787_i1> .tell chris_99 sooo, if those images are your card stripe data... do we know your credit card number now? :D
16:12 < yoleaux> nmz787_i1: I'll pass your message to chris_99.
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16:15 < nmz787_i1> xtalmath: got that protopopov book... table of contents looks good
16:15 < xtalmath> he also has an optical heterodyning book if you got hooked
16:17 < xtalmath> basically in the intro to the first book he mentions the motivation came from newcomers in the field messing up experiments, or ordering parts with wrong specifications, and he traced it to practical knowledge that is often not in the public domain, or never absorbed in academic course notes...
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16:21 < nmz787_i> xtalmath: this one?
16:21 < nmz787_i> http://rd.springer.com/book/10.1007%2F978-3-642-02338-5
16:22 < nmz787_i> I actually have asked about optical heterodyning previously online (years ago) and didn't get too much help (there was some good feedback, but not enough to get moving with anything practical)
16:29 < xtalmath> yes that one, also heard its similarly available somehow
16:29 < xtalmath> what did you want to do with optical heterodyning?
16:33 < xtalmath> also, how did you acquire a SEM?
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16:36 < nmz787_i> ah yeah, I got it via my work's subscription
16:36 < nmz787_i> SEM was off craigslist, from this place right down the street from me... was $200 and mostly working (except for some beam deflection circuits) so I couldn't pass it up
16:37 < nmz787_i> it's a plus that it's the same model as the one ben krasnow has
16:37 < nmz787_i> so i was able to get all the info he had on it
16:38 < nmz787_i> as far as what I wanted to do with heterodyning, it had to do with thinking about shifting DNA and protein specific frequencies into the visible, since UV detectors and light sources are a lot more expensive than visible ones
16:49 < xtalmath> what information is contained in the UV spectrum of DNA and proteins?
16:49 < xtalmath> also $200 ??
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16:53 < nmz787_i> the 260nm:280nm ratio is indicative of relative DNA to protein concentration
16:53 < nmz787_i> yeah I live in the heart of the silicon forest... so deals can definitely be had
16:58 < nmz787_i> that heterodyning book uses this term "picopharads"... I haven't seen that spelling of farads
16:58 < xtalmath> the author is like a russian working in south korea
16:58 < xtalmath> he also has some other phrases that are wrong, but his message always comes across ;-)
16:59 < xtalmath> UV is a bit annoying for optics
16:59 < xtalmath> many materials absorb it
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18:02 < kanzure> .title http://www.nature.com/news/the-boom-in-mini-stomachs-brains-breasts-kidneys-and-more-1.18064
18:02 < yoleaux> The boom in mini stomachs, brains, breasts, kidneys and more : Nature News & Comment
18:02 < kanzure> "The current crop of organoids isn't perfect. Some lack key cell types; others imitate only the earliest stages of organ development or vary from batch to batch. So researchers are toiling to refine their organoids — to make them more complex, more mature and more reproducible. Still, biologists have been amazed at how little encouragement cells need to self-assemble into elaborate structures. “It doesn't require any ...
18:03 < kanzure> ... super-sophisticated bioengineering,” says Knoblich. “We just let the cells do what they want to do, and they make a brain.”"
18:03 < kanzure> cool they have a neural tube cell culture working
18:03 < kanzure> and cerebral cortex
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18:22 < xtalmath> what if cancers were just accidental organoids?
18:23 < xtalmath> like an arm trying to develop in a smokers lungs
18:28 < xtalmath> can cells be made to express SU-8 chemicals?
18:28 < xtalmath> nah dumb question
18:38 < kanzure> there's a few "bioprinters" that print out polymers when you shoot laser beams at the cells
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19:58 -!- fleshtheworld [~fleshthew@108-240-244-194.lightspeed.frsnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:14 -!- Madplatypus [uid19957@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ggxzgkkoojebpfed] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:26 -!- PatrickRobotham [uid18270@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-czyhvoacznyvegld] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:29 -!- erasmus [~esb@unaffiliated/erasmus] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:54 < kanzure> beep
20:55 < JayDugger> boop
20:59 < kanzure> hmm
21:01 -!- erasmus [~esb@unaffiliated/erasmus] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
21:01 -!- super` [~super@66.55.76.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
21:23 -!- delinquentme_ [~delinquen@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
23:18 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
23:19 -!- AmbulatoryCortex [~Ambulator@173-31-9-188.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
23:21 -!- Beatzebub [~beatzebub@d162-156-106-225.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: Beatzebub]
23:26 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap
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23:36 < erasmus> hi
23:46 -!- Beatzebub [~beatzebub@d162-156-106-225.bchsia.telus.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
--- Log closed Sat Aug 01 00:00:27 2015