--- Log opened Sun Aug 09 00:00:35 2015
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00:37 < JayDugger> http://blog.jacobtorrey.com/mitigations-to-the-memory-sinkhole
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03:44 < xtalmath> is this satire or real comment? http://benjaminmillam.com/cat-geek/monkey-the-cat-hunts-for-dinner/#comment-64
03:44 < xtalmath> its perfectly balanced on the border of credibility and trolling
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06:32 < kanzure> hmph
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07:26 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10029943
07:26 < yoleaux> Why you should be reading Liu Cixin, China’s hottest science-fiction writer | Hacker News
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08:02 < kanzure> grr https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3gcbw5/how_should_bitcoin_be_governed_upcoming_epicenter/ctwuawd
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08:22 < xtalmath> kanzure: do you sincerely believe voting is bad in general, or only for bitcoin?
08:22 < gradstudentbot> Is there free food at that seminar?
08:29 < archels> \o/
08:30 < kanzure> xtalmath: yes, voting is extremely broken
08:30 < xtalmath> why ditch instead of fix?
08:30 < kanzure> i believe it's theoretically impossible to fix voting
08:30 < xtalmath> kanzure: still not clear if this is about bitcoin or society in general?
08:30 < kanzure> in general
08:31 < kanzure> but bitcoin especially
08:31 < kanzure> for example, many people have proposed making bitcoin transactions that contain votes
08:31 < xtalmath> kanzure: is it because people want to vote on outcomes?
08:31 < kanzure> the problem is that miners can trivially censor those transactions
08:31 < kanzure> and there's also sybil vulnerabilities to voting schemes
08:31 < kanzure> andytoshi: got any others off the top of your head?
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08:32 < andytoshi> kanzure: other questions for gavin? or other problems with voting?
08:33 < kanzure> voting
08:34 < andytoshi> the other problem is that it creates incentives for double-spending
08:34 < xtalmath> kanzure: if there was formal proof for a protocol that miners can not censor, and sybil free in some way, would you still oppose it?
08:34 < andytoshi> so it might weaken or break the incentives toward forming consensus on a single chain
08:35 < kanzure> xtalmath: yes, i have other existential objections to voting
08:35 < xtalmath> andytoshi: could you explain the incentives for double-spending?
08:35 < xtalmath> kanzure: I think it is the more existential objections that interest me
08:35 < andytoshi> er, double-spending is not quite what i mean. i mean rewriting history
08:35 < andytoshi> xtalmath: if a miner wants to change the outcome of a vote, she can do so by replacing old blocks with new ones (and censoring in the new ones)
08:36 < xtalmath> andytoshi: so that makes changing vote outcomes proportional to time since the original vote
08:37 < kanzure> i think that voting might work in some extremely restricted scenarios, but the restrictions are so numerous that it's practically worthless
08:37 < kanzure> it might work when the vote-options are indistinguishable from noise
08:37 < kanzure> or where the actual decision is irrelevant
08:37 < andytoshi> xtalmath: it makes the difficulty in changing vote outcome proportional to its age, yeah
08:37 < xtalmath> andytoshi: also not sure how outcome of a vote is malleable, if a certain quorum is necessary (it is not like the miner can forge signatures)
08:38 < andytoshi> xtalmath: right, i wasn't thinking clearly about the inability to forge signatures. but miners can censor
08:38 < kanzure> and also miners can just make their own transactions, who cares
08:38 < andytoshi> tho this might be partially solvable with interesting crypto, e.g. aggregating signatures so miners can't separate votes
08:38 < xtalmath> kanzure: so you do not think that democracy (or some form of it) is desirable?
08:38 < kanzure> what is your definition of democracy?
08:38 < xtalmath> andytoshi: I think censorship can be remedied with an interactive protocol with the miner
08:39  * andytoshi goes on record saying democracy (meaning giving control to humans, in particular control in proportion to the group size of them) is not desirable in itself
08:39 < xtalmath> andytoshi: so that the voter can prove to the next block miner his vote was censored
08:39 < andytoshi> xtalmath: interaction usually does not let you prove things about the interaction
08:39 < xtalmath> andytoshi: this way the miners can be rewarded more if they gather previously censored votes
08:39 < andytoshi> xtalmath: except to the original participants
08:40 < andytoshi> xtalmath: but sure, i expect there's a way to prove censorship..
08:40 < andytoshi> ...in that case there is an incentive for miners to collude with voters to "censor" votes
08:41 < andytoshi> and then claim the reward for exposing it
08:41 < kanzure> sounds like an incentive to not actually publish anyhting at all until later
08:41 < kanzure> game of chicken or something
08:41 < xtalmath> andytoshi: the payment for the first miner is delayed by a couple of blocks, so he loses proportionally
08:42 < xtalmath> in fact not proportionally, one provably censored vote is not payment for the miner
08:42 < xtalmath> hmm yeah I still see problems
08:43 < xtalmath> but I still think a quest for a provably non-malleable voting scheme is desirable
08:43 < andytoshi> i think you'll be forced into adding so much complexity that you can no longer see the incentive problems, but they'll still be there
08:43 < andytoshi> but i think that based on experience
08:43 < andytoshi> i'm sure there's some fundamental law or something that breaks these kind of things, but i have no idea yet what it is
08:45 < xtalmath> andytoshi: deep deep down, there is an incentive problem with the transaction crypto ecdsa as well, once you know the solution its probably inexpensive to steal random peoples bitcoins...
08:46 < andytoshi> xtalmath: "know the solution"?
08:46 < andytoshi> xtalmath: can you elaborate on this?
08:46 < xtalmath> hehe
08:47 < xtalmath> also, why be satisfied with censorable transactions, but not with censorable votes?
08:47 < andytoshi> because transactions only affect the participating parties
08:47 < andytoshi> and to be fair, we aren't really happy with censorable transactinos :P
08:48 < xtalmath> agreed
08:50 < andytoshi> a lot of the work blockstream is doing with "confidential transactions" etc is to make transactions less distinguishable from each other, to discourage censorship
08:50 < andytoshi> err, a lot of the motivation behind this work
08:53 < xtalmath> is there similar work motivated for "confidential votes" ?
08:54 < kanzure> haha someone tried to claim that i don't know what BDFL means
08:55 < kanzure> (in the replies)
08:55 < andytoshi> xtalmath: a looot of modern crypto research is about confidential voting
08:55 < andytoshi> and almost none of it is remotely related to blockchains, it's just not really a good fit
08:56 < xtalmath> andytoshi: a seemingly trivial way to make votes hidden from the miner, is clients individually encrypt votes, miners gather ciphertext until voting period is over, then clients release private keys to each other directly for a certain period of blocks, and after these 2*N blocks, clients reject miner blocks that miss a private key the client itself has seen.
08:57 < andytoshi> xtalmath: no need for encryption, just use hashes and hash preimages
08:58 < xtalmath> andytoshi: sure, then its salts instead of private keys
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08:59 < xtalmath> (without encryption, or salted hashes the miner can see the vote, also, without encryption how do you prevent sybil attacks other than weighing by signing by a transaction related key, i.e. proportional to $)
09:00 < xtalmath> i.e. vote by stake
09:00 < andytoshi> xtalmath: encryption with an unknown key is identical to hashing as far as what it reveals about the original input
09:00 < xtalmath> andytoshi: not an unknown key, but one signed with your money
09:01 < xtalmath> so people have to move their money, but that deanonymizes your money fragmentation...
09:01 < andytoshi> what property do you want? that voting costs $$?
09:01 < xtalmath> no just move it, and adjust transaction structure to contain a field for voting.
09:02 < andytoshi> i'm still confused about why you think using encryption in place of a hash is better
09:03 < andytoshi> or why money ought to be moved alongside votes
09:03 < xtalmath> andytoshi: how do you prevent me from voting more than once? or how do I prove it is proportional to stake?
09:03 < xtalmath> i.e. how do you propose to use hashes?
09:03 < kanzure> why would stake proportionality matter
09:03 < andytoshi> in a centralized system you have every participant have their key (or hash salt) blindly signed by the voting authority
09:04 < andytoshi> in a decentralized one you could make each salt cost money by requiring it be committed to by an op_return output
09:04 < xtalmath> kanzure: I don't say it does, just curious how sybil attack is prevented in his hashing scheme?
09:04 < andytoshi> but you really really do not want "money buys votes"
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09:04 < xtalmath> man, I should really write up my anti sybil attack protocol
09:05 < andytoshi> xtalmath: how is sybil prevented by your encryption scheme? i'm telling you they are identical, except that encryption is more expensive and the security property isn't really related to what you're trying to accomplish
09:06 < xtalmath> andytoshi: I already agreed they are identical, in the sense that salted hashing and then later revealing is a form of encryption
09:06 < andytoshi> ok, cool, that's all i was arguing
09:06 < andytoshi> sybil resistance has to be done on top of that
09:06 < xtalmath> yes, but I wont elaborate on that :)
09:07 < andytoshi> well, ultimately you need to decide what "sybil" means. do you want one vote per $, or one vote per computational cycle, or one vote per person? the first two are "solved" by bitcoin and hashcash respectively. the latter seems to be to require a voting authority to hand out tokens
09:07 < andytoshi> and you can do this privately by blind signatures
09:08 < kanzure> you can't do sybil at the registration process?
09:08 < xtalmath> I know a protocol that is one vote per person who has a specific -but widespread- peripheral.
09:08 < andytoshi> kanzure: well you'd have to show a passport or something :P
09:09 < kanzure> yeah i'm pretty sure people spoof those all the time
09:09 < xtalmath> kanzure: then you are simply displacing sybil attack to the registration process, but yes, it is better to put it at registration, so you can vote multiple times
09:10 < andytoshi> i haven't seen evidence that it's a significant problem in existing human-based voting schemes .. in places where you see tons of election fraud it's the voting authorities who do it
09:10 < andytoshi> in western countries it seems like it's just not significant enough to affect outcomes
09:10 < kanzure> er isn't that indistinguishable? how would you prove it was the authorities.
09:10 < kanzure> or that it wasn't
09:11 < andytoshi> i'm making trust judgements on the authorities here, and looking at motivations for fraud from them and the voters
09:11 < andytoshi> i don't have anything solid to say here
09:11 < kanzure> it's interesting how everyone is so obsessed with voting
09:11 < xtalmath> andytoshi: you can never be sure, here in belgium, voting location is almost always in schools, and schools here lack money, and depend on banks for changes in infrastructure
09:11 < kanzure> i have no idea why this is
09:11 < andytoshi> except that i think it's really hard (maybe impossible) to say anything solid because this is ultimately a problem of identifying humans
09:12 < c0rw1n> in westernland all the authorities are cheating but they're mostly on a similar level of power to fraud
09:12 < c0rw1n> so it evens out
09:12 < kanzure> westernland sounds like a terrible amusement park
09:12 < c0rw1n> lol
09:12 < xtalmath> it kind of is?
09:13 < c0rw1n> hey an other belgian! o/
09:13 < xtalmath> what city?
09:13 < c0rw1n> Liège
09:13 < xtalmath> Gent
09:14 < c0rw1n> oh well, just needs a brusselian and we'll be representative :D
09:14 < xtalmath> haha
09:14 < xtalmath> what do you do in life?
09:14 < kanzure> crush my enemies and see them driven before me. you?
09:15 < c0rw1n> belgian chocolatier
09:15 < xtalmath> car manufacture
09:15 < xtalmath> well physics dropout
09:16 < c0rw1n> trained dev for industrial embedded machines, but never worked in that
09:16 < xtalmath> oh!
09:16 < xtalmath> nono, I do the 'modern times' part
09:17 < xtalmath> as an interim, I work for 4 months or so, then have free time the rest of the year till im broke, lather, rinse, repeat
09:17 < xtalmath> I need to maximize free time for reading, learning, ...
09:17 < c0rw1n> don't we all here, don't we all ...
09:18 < xtalmath> trying to design a direct democracy based on formal verification
09:18 < c0rw1n> nah, don't bother with democracy
09:18 < xtalmath> well, if I continued my studies, I wouldn't have the time for this
09:18 < xtalmath> c0rw1n: why not?
09:18 < c0rw1n> democracy means wasting all the time trying to get people to agree to things. Easier to just go do things
09:19 < andytoshi> xtalmath: you should check out david chaum's work on the cryptography around using identifying tokens privately
09:19 < andytoshi> i inexplicably don't have a link, one sec, i'll track it down..
09:19 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/ it's in there
09:19 < xtalmath> c0rw1n: but then where will "the" law come from?
09:19 < kanzure> oh, it's not.
09:20 < xtalmath> andytoshi: I know it
09:20 < andytoshi> xtalmath: oh, excellent. do you have a link you can post?
09:20 < andytoshi> i last saw it before i used jotmuch i guess
09:20 < xtalmath> andytoshi: let me look, its here *somewhere*
09:20 < kanzure> i'm up to 3632 bookmarks. i feel so behind.
09:21 < andytoshi> i've got only 210 :P
09:22 < xtalmath> andytoshi: I think you mean this one http://math.stanford.edu/~rmbellov/writings/chaum.pdf ?
09:22 < c0rw1n> xtalmath: no need for a single set of laws ... i have a model to go about implementing Archipelago over AR, that would work on cheap identities in a panoptic-but-pseudonymous world
09:23 < andytoshi> xtalmath: no, there's a 50+ page one somewhere that is basically a list of a bajillion things you can do with takens
09:23 < c0rw1n> ( and i have to write it up cleanly some time )
09:23 < andytoshi> xtalmath: oh, shit, i'm thinking of stephen brands, not chaum
09:23 < xtalmath> what is archipelago? and AR is augmented reality?
09:23 < xtalmath> andytoshi: oh I would like to have that
09:24 < andytoshi> xtalmath: i'll find it, adam3us loves to post it
09:25 < c0rw1n> xtalmath: http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/06/07/archipelago-and-atomic-communitarianism/
09:25 < c0rw1n> and yes, AR as in Augmented Reality
09:25 < andytoshi> xtalmath: it's http://cypherspace.org/credlib/brands-technical.pdf
09:26 < andytoshi> it's really funny, i always thought adam3us was way too optimistic about the power of discrete logs, then he posted that one time
09:26 < andytoshi> and like half the things in there i've claimed were impossible to do with discrete logs at some point or another
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09:29 < kanzure> neat
09:30 < andytoshi> (i still think he's too optimistic, but i'm less quick to say so ;))
09:34 < xtalmath> c0rw1n: the problem with that is some kid's are then forced to grow up with their non-rationalist parents
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09:35 < kanzure> kids are forced to do many things
09:35 < c0rw1n> that problem goes under http://lesswrong.com/lw/1e/raising_the_sanity_waterline/
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09:38 < xtalmath> c0rw1n: I am not talking about religion, but more generally belief systems
09:38 < c0rw1n> that post is not talking about religion only
09:39 < c0rw1n> "religion also serves the function of an asphyxiated canary in a coal mine—religion is a sign, a symptom, of larger problems that don't go away just because someone loses their religion."
09:40 < xtalmath> but then how do you improve a belief like "newtonian mechanics" to "relativistic mechanics" if it is a taboo to criticize "newtonian mechanics"
09:40 < xtalmath> (to refer to it "directly")
09:41 < c0rw1n> i want to reply "formalizations of Occam's Razor"
09:41 < xtalmath> yes!
09:41 < xtalmath> formalize or fossilize
09:42 < xtalmath> but then we are trying to unify observations
09:42 < c0rw1n> as well we should
09:42 < xtalmath> and not have seperate worlds next to each other
09:42 < c0rw1n> wait
09:42 < c0rw1n> no, the separate worlds are there because people have differing preferences
09:43 < xtalmath> you mean compatible choices, like I want Coca cola, you want Pepsi, and that is ok?
09:43 < c0rw1n> yeah
09:43 < c0rw1n> but more than that
09:44 < xtalmath> so you are saying democracy is flawed because it will result in endless " THE drink in the drink dispenser should be: 1) Coca 2) Pepsi" kind of votes?
09:44 < andytoshi> xtalmath: the differennces between newtonian and relativistic mechanics are not observable to most people, i don't think it's a failure of rationality to prefer one to the other if you aren't handed direct evidence from somebody who has done experiments
09:44 < xtalmath> I claim this is easy to prevent, since most people will vote that the dispenser should have a representative distribution of brands
09:46 < xtalmath> andytoshi: I never claimed it was a failure of rationality? I claim one can not assume taboo to be an essential element of rationality
09:46 < gradstudentbot> I haven't seen my PI in like a week.
09:47 < andytoshi> xtalmath: i think the point was not that taboo is necessary, but that magical thinking is such a glaring failure mode that you should be able to eliminate it even when it's taboo'd
09:48 < andytoshi> it's a "steel manning" device
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09:49 < kanzure> gradstudentbot: are you going to help cluckj finish writing his thesis?
09:49 < gradstudentbot> I am sponsored by the Beijing Genomics Institute.
09:50 < cluckj> I'm almost done
09:50 < xtalmath> andytoshi: I think simple observation shows that the halflife of a taboo maintaining state can be surprisingly long, furthermore taboo to criticize can be interpreted as wide support for the theory
09:50 < cluckj> my first draft needs to be finished by the first week of september D:
09:51 < xtalmath> andytoshi: one only needs to look at the french revolution, and what the influence of the first real encyclopedia's etc were at the time
09:51 < xtalmath> or the printing press to cheaply print what was taboo
09:51 < cluckj> I actually logged on to see if you (still?) have a list of diy bio blogs?
09:52 < kanzure> cluckj: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/groups/ and http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/faq/news
09:52 < cluckj> thanks
09:53 < xtalmath> andytoshi: also, how do you justify waiting for spontaneous enlightenment, if the ideology creates victims?
09:54 < xtalmath> I believe in agitation
09:54 < andytoshi> xtalmath: it's not about 'waiting for enlightenment', it's about trying to solve a deeper problem
09:55 < kanzure> c0rw1n: ask cluckj for a rant about occam's razor
09:55 < cluckj> I'm writing about blogs today, mostly from Avery's, and I want to use more sources than that
09:55 < cluckj> lol
09:56 < andytoshi> xtalmath: i'm quite concerned about what would happen if peoples' religious tendencies continued to exist and were forced to latch onto something with more agency than a god defined by dead texts
09:56 < andytoshi> e.g. if they latched onto a charismatic leader who wanted to take over the world
09:56 < xtalmath> andytoshi: which problem is deeper, the fact that someone is slow to realize how undesirable an ideology is, or that we hold back pointing it out & acting on it?
09:56 < kanzure> or a certain charismatic lab mouse
09:56 < kanzure> narf
09:56 < c0rw1n> LOL
09:57 < andytoshi> lol kanzure
09:57 < c0rw1n> cluckj: is there a link you can paste that points a version of your rant on Occam's Razor ?
09:57 < xtalmath> andytoshi: I'm not talking about religion, but ideology
09:57 < andytoshi> xtalmath: sure, i agree that if a specific ideology is causing problems it should be tackled directly
09:58 < gradstudentbot> Non-binding electrons are completely useless, they should just leave.
09:58 < cluckj> c0rw1n, I dunno, simplistic explanations are usually the worst kind
09:58 < c0rw1n> ah ok
09:58 < andytoshi> xtalmath: i do not think that religion (outside of extremist groups) are causing problems on net
09:58 < xtalmath> what is "net" ?
09:58 < andytoshi> xtalmath: in fact i think they cause people to be suspicious of gov't and other human leaders
09:58 < c0rw1n> yeah no, i was meaning in the minimum message length / kolmogorov complexity sense
09:58 < cluckj> me bitching about it is probably in the logs of this channel somewhere
09:59 < xtalmath> andytoshi: I am not talking about religion, but more generally ideology
09:59 < andytoshi> sure
09:59 < andytoshi> most ideologies are harmless outlets for potentially very harmful brain failure modes
09:59 < xtalmath> andytoshi: I have no problem with people being suspicious or paranoid, it is a healthy state of mind
10:00 < xtalmath> andytoshi: you'd be amazed how simple mundane ideologies create conflicts of interest that create victims?
10:00 < c0rw1n> ideologies should ideally be universalizable... basically, any that is not, is evil
10:00 < cluckj> ideology killed my dog
10:01 < xtalmath> c0rw1n: what do you mean with universalizable?
10:02 < cluckj> ideology wouldn't be ideology if it were universalizable
10:02 < andytoshi> xtalmath: sure, but how many victims and to what extent? do you mean like immigrants having a harder time finding work? compare to e.g. communism in the soviet union
10:03 < xtalmath> I still don't know what you mean with universalizable, what I mean with ideology is generally any boolean expression believed to be true
10:03 < c0rw1n> that they're hmm dunno what that means already but "agent-neutral", that the holder of the ideology could be put in the position of interacting with something that has the same ideology, while they'd be holding an incompatible one, and suffer no disutility
10:03 < andytoshi> i think that people are gonna latch onto weird ideologies in the absense of good rationality training; then it's good to think in terms of opportunity costs as far as which ones you attack
10:04 < c0rw1n> all of them, with rationality training, duh
10:04 < cluckj> what constitutes "good rationality training" is a fuckin' ideology
10:04 < c0rw1n> why whack-the-mole
10:05 < xtalmath> andytoshi: I agree totally with the rationality training, which is why I am programming an educational learning/testing/proctoring "game/graphical interface" for arbitrary belief systems, based on MetaMath, and its database as an initial belief system
10:06 < xtalmath> in this way it is neutral to belief system, and you can verify if conclusions follow from someone else's belief system before even learning/reading it
10:07 < xtalmath> also, you can inspect their belief system and find a contradiction, as soon as you find one you can prove true=false and every statement in their belief system is useless. you can publish this proof to the rest so that no one will take their belief system serious until the relevant conflicting axioms are dropped
10:07 < cluckj> oh boy
10:08 < xtalmath> (at the expense of having to drop the conclusions that relied on them as well)
10:08 < xtalmath> formalize or fossilize ;)
10:13 < cluckj> there's literally nothing to do with humans that is internally consistent
10:13 < xtalmath> there's literally been no serious attempt to unify belief systems
10:14 < cluckj> successful one, anyway
10:15 < xtalmath> in my view, the only serious attempts have been proof checkers, and their currently minimal contents
10:15 < cluckj> yes...in very, very, very, closed sets and limited frames of reference
10:16 < cluckj> but even then, not really
10:16 < gradstudentbot> Don't phage me, bro.
10:16 < cluckj> thanks gradstudentbot
10:16 < gradstudentbot> The grant got rejected.
10:16 < xtalmath> nobody wants to do the work of formalization (translation from vague words), so a reward structure would have to be put up for translating texts into machine verifiable theorems, and rewards for people to locate contradictions...
10:18 < xtalmath> oh, have to go out and meet some people
10:19 < cluckj> o_O
10:19 < cluckj> even logic isn't internally consistent like that
10:19 < xtalmath> cluckj: ? not sure what you refer to? do you know MetaMath?
10:20 < xtalmath> the software, not the stream of philosophy
10:20 < xtalmath> it is a proof checker
10:21 < cluckj> I know of it?
10:21 < cluckj> maybe I'm not sure what you mean
10:22 < c0rw1n> i think he's saying "but, but, Gödel inconsistency thing"
10:23 < cluckj> c0rw1n, probably
10:23 < cluckj> if he is me
10:23 < c0rw1n> yes
10:23 < cluckj> I've also seen professional logicians try to axiomize ethical (belief) systems
10:24 < c0rw1n> lol
10:25 < xtalmath> so what if our belief system were incomplete? as long as its consistent
10:26 < cluckj> in order to be consistent, it has to be complete
10:26 < cluckj> and to be complete, it has to be very limited
10:27 < cluckj> I mean, this is also getting at why occam's razor is terrible and people should quit using it
10:27 < c0rw1n> hmm
10:27 < xtalmath> cluckj: I think you don't really understand godel's theorem
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10:28 < c0rw1n> there are inconsistencies in the stupider belief systems, that really don't need to go back to something as abstract as the incompleteness theorem to detect and thereby invalidate the whole structure
10:28 < cluckj> c0rw1n, lol
10:30 < cluckj> do you mean the structure, or the contents of the belief system?
10:31 < c0rw1n> oh, invalidate the content
10:31 < c0rw1n> yeah
10:31 < cluckj> :)
10:32 < cluckj> I'm sad/not sad that he left
10:33 < cluckj> I usually love harassing cryptofascists
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10:44 < cluckj> what I mean is that if the system you're using to judge other systems is just as shaky as the ones you're judging with it, it forms a nice tautology
10:46 < cluckj> which kinda defeats the purpose of doing it in the first place?
10:46 < cluckj> tl;dr, don't be a dick about other people's belief systems because they're logically inconsistent
10:46 < cluckj> it's much much better to be a dick for pragmatic reasons
10:47 < cluckj> e.g., "your belief system includes justification for genocide"
10:50 < c0rw1n> oh, that one I resolve with "if you were on the other side of your belief system you'd get killed"
10:51 < c0rw1n> *that's* my universalizability
10:51 < gradstudentbot> I feel like you don't completely comprehend the scope of this work.
10:51 < cluckj> that's not really about the internal logic though
10:52 < cluckj> that seems to be about "not getting murdered"
10:55 < c0rw1n> well since internal logic is unreachable anyway, the "not getting murdered" heuristic sounds like pretty good criterion to me
10:56 < cluckj> I agree
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11:21 < cluckj> bbl, time to write now that I've read like 8 blogs
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11:59  * fenn thinks cluckj doesn't know what a fascist is or what godel's theorem implies
12:02 < kanzure> hmm page 47 http://lightning.network/lightning-network-paper.pdf
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12:04 < kanzure> or figure 19 on the next page
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12:06 < kanzure> converting all of this into an implementation is going to be ugh
12:10 < __mz_o> what are you trying to implement?
12:11 < kanzure> haven't started
12:11 < kanzure> it's just lightning network stuff
12:12 < gradstudentbot> It's a social construct.
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12:27 < drethelin> YOUR MOM IS A SOCIAL CONSTRUCT.
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13:53 < ParahSailin_> how did the chinese know that cockroach and mantis are related before dna
13:54 < ParahSailin_> or is that pretty obvious from anatomy?
13:57 < drethelin> lots of historical people have had coincidentally correct ideas on taxonomy
14:14 < kanzure> https://media.defcon.org/DEF%20CON%2023/DEF%20CON%2023%20presentations/Speaker%20&%20Workshop%20Materials/
14:14 < kanzure> http://blog.mindedsecurity.com/2015/08/pdf-based-polyglots-through-svg-images.html
14:16 < drethelin> https://twitter.com/lunalindsey/status/630487154469146624/photo/1
14:18 < kanzure> many things can kill you
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14:23 < drethelin> not guns though
14:24 < kanzure> drethelin: you know about gene guns, right?
14:25 < drethelin> are those covered in gun rights debates?
14:25 < drethelin> now I really want a bumper sticker
14:25 < drethelin> "You can take my Gene Gun when you pry it from my mutated fingers"
14:25 < kanzure> they aren't covered in gun debates...... yet.
14:25 < drethelin> though really you wouldn't use a gene gun ona human
14:25 < kanzure> but the nra has a generous grant program
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14:53 < cluckj> fenn, do too
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16:56 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10031725
16:56 < yoleaux> Scientists have synthesized a new compound that ‘mimics’ exercise | Hacker News
17:18 < yashgaroth> http://www.cell.com/chemistry-biology/pdfExtended/S1074-5521(15)00234-3 since wapo is too lazy to link the article
17:21 < gradstudentbot> There's no way to know for sure.
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19:07 < kanzure> .title http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=146743673&pagenumber=1
19:07 < yoleaux> Exercise in a Pill (PPARδ and AMPK agonists) supplement simulation - Bodybuilding.com Forums
19:11 < drethelin> that's been around for a while but I haven't heard anything actually come of it
19:11 < drethelin> iirc I heard of it in echopraxia
19:12 < kanzure> star wars 7 concept art leak http://imgur.com/a/uRMnN
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21:51 < kanzure> beep bloop
22:01 < kanzure> fine be that way
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--- Log closed Mon Aug 10 00:00:36 2015