--- Log opened Tue Aug 18 00:00:44 2015
00:10 < archels> Personally, I've been hearing all my life about the Serious Philosophical Issues posed by life extension, and my attitude has always been that I'm willing to grapple with those issues for as many centuries as it takes.
00:11 < archels> -- Patrick Nielsen Hayden
00:11 < archels> haha that's pretty good
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04:42 < Adlai> the benjamin franklin one is good too (and too good)
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05:01  * Adlai wonders how to value bitcoin according to http://lesswrong.com/lw/1pq/rationality_quotes_february_2010/1jmp
05:05  * Adlai ponders Dirac's "I understand what an equation means if I have a way of figuring out the characteristics of its solution without actually solving it." in the context of his continuing journey along the golden braid
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05:09 < archels> "solving" is pretty ambiguous in this context
05:09 < Adlai> excellent how these are sorted in decreasing order of quality... closing the tab could've been much harder
05:09 < archels> if he means solving algebraically, then yes, you can do an approximate numerical solution in your head to gain an intuition
05:09 < archels> if he means solving numerically to begin with, I don't really agree with his statement
05:10  * Adlai assumes the charitable interpretation
05:10 < Adlai> ie, you solve for specific points to get a feel for the landscape, then set out without unvealing the full map
05:10 < Adlai> heuristic vs optimal
05:11 < archels> exactly
05:12 < gradstudentbot> Don't phage me, bro.
05:14 < Adlai> but all things considered, the best quote is http://lesswrong.com/lw/1pq/rationality_quotes_february_2010/1jlr
05:17 < archels> The Noah principle: predicting rain doesn’t count, building arks does.
05:17 < archels> this seems somehow pertinent to this channel
05:18  * archels stops procrastinating
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05:49 < JayDugger> Good morning, wceryone.
05:49 < JayDugger> everyone, even.
05:51 < eudoxia> good morning
05:52 < kanzure> eudoxia: report!
05:52 < eudoxia> i haven't really done anything interesting as of late
05:52 < eudoxia> how about you
05:53 < gradstudentbot> I am sponsored by New England Biolabs.
05:54 < kanzure> eudoxia: scratching my head about onion routing
05:54 < eudoxia> are you trying to implement something like tor or understand it
05:55 < kanzure> http://lightning.network/lightning-network-paper.pdf
05:55 < kanzure> the problem with onion routing is that you require the nodes to know about the routes or the node graph, which is something i would like to avoid
05:56 < kanzure> but onion routing has higher transactional privacy for end-users, which is something i'd like to keep
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06:02 < eudoxia> HTLCs are interesting
06:05 < xtalmath> there is something about onion routing I do not trust
06:07 < xtalmath> consider 5 relay nodes, 2 sources S1 and S2 on left, the considered relay node in the middle, and 2 destinations D1 & D2 on the right, they don't need to be the ultimate sources or destinations, just intermediate hops
06:07 < xtalmath> lets call the relay R
06:09 < kanzure> most onion routing networks seem to require a central directory, which is another problem
06:09 < xtalmath> packets from S1 or S2 for D1 or D2 are encrypted with R's public key, which the ISP is considered to know
06:09 < kanzure> the lightning folks have said "well, the central directory can be the blockchain" but that doesn't make me feel better at all
06:10 < kanzure> and if the intermediate nodes tell you about what the next pubkey is, then that's trivially man-in-the-middled
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06:11 < xtalmath> without even knowing the cleartext, it seems R's outgoing packets can be matched to R's incoming packets, by checking if encryption to R's public key of the packet D1 receives, one should be able to match it to a packet S1 or S2 sent to R.
06:12 < kanzure> i just can't see a way to do private route negotiation, without revealing all the available routes or the entire network graph. how can it be private if you're doing an auction with multiple nodes you don't know?
06:13 < kanzure> i suppose it could be something like "the network negotiates new routes through the blockchain, such that members can join a new route, and each member can have some zero-knowledge proof that they have a payment channel with another member, but nobody knows what the actual relationships are just by inspecting the blockchain, only that there is indeed a route among the members joining that particular route". but that requires some ...
06:13 < kanzure> ... wizardry that i'm not entirely clear on.
06:13 < xtalmath> i.e. ISP simply re-encrypts correctly reformatted packets D1 and D2 received from R, with R's public key, and matches them to R's incoming packets to unmix that relay's traffic...
06:14 < kanzure> hmm well perhaps you could operate multiple nodes on multiple computers, but have each one receive some % of the packets, which you manually re-integrate.
06:15 < xtalmath> I assume this is somehow prevented by random (discarded) nonces in the packet format, but until I have time to analyze source code of onion routing networks, I will not trust them
06:15 < kanzure> tor source code isn't too bad, although it's not the best
06:15 < kanzure> https://gitweb.torproject.org/tor.git/tree/src/or
06:16 < kanzure> https://gitweb.torproject.org/tor.git/tree/src/or/circuitlist.c
06:18 < xtalmath> I certainly appreciate the efforts though, and these will ultimately be needed, but I still assume our processors are deliberately compromised through "ring -2" SMM (x86) and TrustZone (ARM)
06:19 < xtalmath> in which case OS / application level solutions are a joke
06:20 < xtalmath> (unless you succeed in airgapping 2 systems, and somehow building a bridge they fail to understand...)
06:20 < kanzure> airgap is not enough. because sound and radiation.
06:20 < xtalmath> but that does not give you anonymity, to have anonymity, everyone would need to do this
06:22 < xtalmath> yes, the GSMem attack.. it seems like application memory bandwidth (not just size) should have been a controlled resource... but what a pain in the ass
06:23 < xtalmath> this will all end with faraday cages that permit cooling
06:26 < gradstudentbot> I am writing the abstract.
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09:55 < CaptHindsight> Wirelessly powered, fully internal optogenetics for brain, spinal and peripheral circuits in mice  http://www.nature.com/nmeth/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nmeth.3536.html
09:56 < CaptHindsight> wireless mice mice
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10:06 < xtalmath> so I was thinking of BCI interfaces, in the computer=>brain direction, ... theres that TED talk with the vibration motor vest, ... I was thinking hairs (or their roots) are pretty sensitive, could it be possible to use my beard/mustache/head hair/... as a new input organ, by making some hair vibrating/pulling device?
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10:26 < kanzure> "vibration motor vest" do you mean southpaw
10:26 < kanzure> .title http://www.nature.com/nmeth/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nmeth.3536.html
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10:26 < yoleaux> Wirelessly powered, fully internal optogenetics for brain, spinal and peripheral circuits in mice : Nature Methods : Nature Publishing Group
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10:41 < delinquentme> whos our best synthetic biologist in here?
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11:01 < kanzure> well we have a few
11:01 < kanzure> at least three. we could put them together to fight to the death, if you'd like.
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11:40 < archels> xtalmath1: electrical stimulation of the follicles might be more practical
11:44 < delinquentme> can plasmids not be PCR-ed?
11:45 < delinquentme> or is bacterial generation just another method for creating large quantities of a given sequence ?
11:45 < kanzure> are you asking "is molecular cloning a myth" or "do primers bounce off of plasmids"?
11:48 < xtalmath1> kanzure: I meant similar to https://www.ted.com/talks/david_eagleman_can_we_create_new_senses_for_humans?language=en
11:49 < xtalmath1> archels: I didn't know hair follicles could be electrically stimulated, do you have references? how safe/easy is it?
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11:57 < delinquentme> kanzure, "do primers bounce off plasmids "
11:59 < archels> xtalmath: I know that it's used in rodent research, it probably hasn't been tried in humans
11:59 < xtalmath> archels: hmm that sounds very interesting, I wish you had more of a reference,... from where do you know?
12:00 < xtalmath> any keyword suggestions for search engines ? "electrical stimulation follicle" ?
12:00 < xtalmath> i'm only finding hair growth stimulation nonsense
12:02 < xtalmath> this seems to be measurement of the vibrissae signals http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0959438806000821
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12:02 < gradstudentbot> Hah, look at figure 6. That's definitely a little weird.
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12:04 < xtalmath> hmm http://www.jneurosci.org/content/23/17/6778.full seems to be able to convey high frequency content (at least cat whiskers), given the number of hairs we have, this could be a high bandwidth device...
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12:05 < xtalmath> im wondering what would work better, mechanical piezo stimulation, or electrical
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12:07 < nmz787_w> delinquentme: plasmids can definitely be PCRed... but I don't think they come out as circles
12:08 < nmz787_w> xtalmath: i've also thought of using hair somehow
12:08 < nmz787_w> maybe as antennae
12:08 < gradstudentbot> Which calculator do you need? I have a TI-83 and a TI-84.
12:08 < xtalmath> nmz787_w: as antennae to receive from electronics, or to emit from brain?
12:09 < xtalmath> nmz787_w: you would cut them to known length and then electroplate them or smth?
12:09 < delinquentme> nmz787_w, ahh got it.  i ask because this edex course on bio-scale up suggest to just add in bacterial selection markers and scale up in organisms
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12:11 < xtalmath> nmz787_w: I also considered using puffs of air, or airflow, to stimulate the hair follicle sensors
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12:15 < xtalmath> perhaps a fast "galvano" xy scanner above the head, with puff/flow strength dependent on (x,y) for a display on the hair
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12:16 < xtalmath> id prefer something more silent and compact though, so electrical or piezo sounds better
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12:22 < delinquentme> nmz787, site-specific recombination
12:22 < delinquentme> that is "find this gene, and modify something within it"
12:22 < delinquentme> right?
12:22 < delinquentme> it is *not* ... insert something at a random spot within the genome
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12:31 < delinquentme> what are alternatives to cre/lox for recombination ?
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12:43 < kanzure> oh weird, i had read a cryotherapy paper prior to hearing about "cryotherapy" (ugh) http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bodybuilding/Effect%20of%20cryotherapy%20on%20muscle%20recovery%20and%20in%EF%AC%82ammation%20following%20a%20bout%20of%20damaging%20exercise.%20-%20Crystal%20et%20al.%20(2013).pdf
12:54 < kanzure> does anyone remember which paper i was using for the "anabolic steroids without exercise" stuff?
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12:59 < xtalmath> optogenetic merkel cell stimulation http://ac.els-cdn.com/S0960982214005363/1-s2.0-S0960982214005363-main.pdf?_tid=b267cb32-45e3-11e5-95ee-00000aab0f26&acdnat=1439928175_cded9cb9979f3a7ab1e262d06ea5be0a
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13:38 < fenn> the latest expedition through the uncanny valley by boston dynamics http://youtu.be/NwrjAa1SgjQ
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13:52 < nmz787_w> xtalmath: never thought too much about it... just was thinking about antennas and then thought hey I have hair which can vary in length... so maybe they act like tunable (by length) antennae
13:53 < nmz787_w> xtalmath: also there is some facebook meme image thing that says something about native americans with long hair being used in the revolutionary/civil war as 'guides', who after getting their hair cut were no longer effective 'guides'
13:53 < nmz787_w> thought the latter point has not influenced me much
13:54 < gradstudentbot> Hah, look at figure 6. That's definitely a little weird.
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13:54 < xtalmath> nmz787_w lol
13:56 < nmz787_w> oh, vietnam maybe??? http://www.csicop.org/sb/show/geronimos_hair/
14:00 < fenn> except hair is an insulator
14:01 < nmz787_w> fenn: yeah but that isn't really a hard cut-off... insulator is a relative term
14:03 < kanzure> out of all the hundreds of graduate student things to say how did he pick the same two messages in such a short time period
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14:09 < fenn> nmz787_w: you can increase the capacitive coupling with your environment by moulding a thin aluminum sheet around the periphery of your neocortex
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14:17 < xtalmath> fenn: is that a tinfoil hat joke?
14:21 < xtalmath> nmz787_w I was not asking for crackpot theories, just curious what would be a cheap and effective method of triggering mechanoreceptors
14:37 < fenn> hehe the head of boston dynamics says "i do have a film where my daughter is about 1 year old, she's staggering along barely able to balance and my arm reaches into the film and gives her a little shove and she falls and whacks her head on the pavement. she was fine, and now she's bigger, so..." (in response to people complaining about them kicking "spot" the robot dog)
14:39 < fenn> xtalmath: we were talking about building a piezo brain interface earlier, some of the principles still apply to triggering mechanoreceptors (the wavelength is longer is the only real difference)
14:41 < fenn> basically you have a flat piezo plate divided into individually addressable segments, submerged in a gel bag that sits on your head or whatever. to address a particular patch of skin you do beamforming like in phased array radar
14:42 < kanzure> why skin mechanoreceptor stimulation?
14:42 < fenn> i'd really rather not know
14:42 < xtalmath> yes, I was thinking of individually addressable segments on piezo plate too, like cut horizontal traces on the front side, and somehow mill or etch vertical traces on the steel side
14:42 < kanzure> if you are going to put a phased array on your head you might as well use ultrasound
14:43 < fenn> there is no "steel side" it's a uniform material
14:43 < xtalmath> kanzure: I don't want to risk mechanical damage to the brain, using mechanoreceptors subjectively seems safer
14:43 < xtalmath> fenn: I was talking about the cheap $1 piezo disks
14:43 < kanzure> prior to using it on your head you can shoot the same ultrasound beams at a chunk of meat from a grocery store
14:44 < kanzure> then you slice the meat and analyze where the beams caused melting
14:44 < xtalmath> steel diaphragm one side, and silver (?) coated on the front
14:44 < kanzure> you can also try it with cow brain matter
14:44 < fenn> meat is a little tougher than brain tissue
14:44 < kanzure> you can buy brains at grocery stores i think
14:44 < kanzure> maybe
14:44 < fenn> i certainly wouldn't trust something tested that way
14:44 < xtalmath> fenn: I wasnt considering beamforming though, just direct contact with a grid of piezo segments
14:45 < kanzure> fenn: what about formaldehyde-preserved somewhat fresh brain?
14:45 < fenn> you can also get pvdf piezo polymer film but it's expensive and not as powerful as the ceramic stuff
14:46 < xtalmath> I was also thinking of using the heat sensing of the skin, i.e. horizontal copper traces, and vertical other traces (distant seebeck coefficients or whatever), so you could individually pulse heat into and out of skin
14:47 < xtalmath> but I think heat sensation is to low bandwidth...
14:47 < fenn> too low for what?
14:48 < xtalmath> well I'd prefer to maximize signal throughput per unit area
14:49 < fenn> don't chop off your basis vectors for such a silly reason
14:49 < xtalmath> there's only so much skin surface I would be willing to trade for BCI
14:49 < xtalmath> fenn: what do you mean with chopping of basis vectors?
14:49 < fenn> no matter how high your tactile bandwidth there's no way to turn that into the sensation of heat
14:51 < xtalmath> fenn: I meant perhaps using the skin's heat transfer sensitivity instead of the mechanoreceptors, until I reminded myself that its probably lower bandwidth per square cm
14:51 < xtalmath> fenn: the stimulation would be computer generated, perhaps video, perhaps text, ...
14:51 < fenn> that's dumb
14:52 < fenn> are you blind?
14:52 < xtalmath> fenn: what is dumb?
14:52 < fenn> trying to display text through skin mechanoreceptors
14:52 < xtalmath> no, not blind, but I would like to be able to receive information without sacrificing retinal area
14:53 < kanzure> does the tongueputer count as mechanoreceptors or was that using other receptors?
14:53 < xtalmath> kanzure: I heard often about the tongue thing, but don't know how it worked..., I'm guessing its electrical (probably someone remembered "tasting batteries" as a kid)
14:54 < kanzure> recently it either started or ended clinical trials
14:54 < xtalmath> but I would like to keep my mouth free, eyes free, basically, I was trying to consider sensitive areas of the human body that I hardly use, and I thought all the skin sensors on my scalp...
14:55 < xtalmath> also, having a camera facing backwards may be cool
14:56 < kanzure> i have found that i don't really use one eye that much anyway, so devoting it to a screen isn't going to be a big deal
14:56 < kanzure> although i have been trying to pick a sufficiently hard problem to devote that eye to
14:57 < xtalmath> kanzure: you mean using one eye for your screen and the other for real life?
14:57 < kanzure> because i suspect that visual processing could be trained for some interesting purpose if i was to try to use that eye more
14:58 < kanzure> like fucking math notation >:(
14:58 < kanzure> or language acquisition
14:58 < kanzure> or some other visual-imagery-intensive problems, like scifi world building stuff.
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15:03 < archels> attention is going to be the bottleneck, anyway
15:03 < archels> xtalmath: interesting idea to use heat
15:04 < archels> bandwidth/lag might be an issue, but then again maybe not (under the right stimulus conditions)
15:05 < xtalmath> archels: I basically just skimmed http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Texture_from_touch and then considered a process for generating the stimulus, always in some array form
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15:07 < xtalmath> archels: the temperature modulation can happen very fast electrically, but I think the thermoreceptors are relatively slow, and low spatial resolution (theres the famous "radiator" through which cold and hot water is alternately cycled, to give weird impressions of very hot or very cold, or spatially alternated tubes with hot and cold water giving similar confusion)
15:08 < nmz787_w> xtalmath: for all I know, in 100 years people (or just ultra mega nerds) will be laughing at the westerners who cut their hair, because they've figured out the natives mythologies had some truth to them
15:10 < xtalmath> nmz787_w: I have dreadlocks btw, but no I don't think people will laugh at scientific westerners who disbelieve conspiracy theory of hair cuts...
15:10 < xtalmath> nmz787_w either way, what do I care what people 100 yrs from now laugh about?
15:11 < nsh> hairs are your antennas man
15:12 < nsh> *aerials
15:12 < nsh> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NeBfY6U4n8
15:13 < xtalmath> lol, I saw that movie once and was very bored
15:13 < nsh> heh
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15:21  * dpk pokes gradstudentbot
15:21 < gradstudentbot> Well, it looks better if you see it through a UV scope.
15:23 < xtalmath> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSf2-jm0SsQ hmm
15:24 < xtalmath> that is similar to what you propose fenn
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15:32 < xtalmath> https://web.archive.org/web/20120226015309/http://www.alab.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~siggraph/08/Tactile/EuroHaptics08.pdf
15:40 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSf2-jm0SsQ
15:40 < yoleaux> Airborne Ultrasound Tactile Display - YouTube
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15:54 < xtalmath> "Several subjects tried the prototype and gave feedback on tactile sensation theyfelt. They clearly felt vibratory sensation when the radiation pressure was mod-ulated by burst waves whose frequency was ranging from 20 Hz to 250 Hz." 250 Hz :-) higher bandwidth than our photosensors...
15:55 < fenn> sensitive to a different frequency range anyway
15:55 < xtalmath> still 20Hz to 250Hz is 230Hz of bandwith
15:56 < fenn> not if you're sampling at 1 Hz
15:56 < xtalmath> I wonder what the dynamic range of the sensation is though
15:57 < xtalmath> fenn: what are you saying, that the bandwidth could be just 1hz, but that the higher frequencies are aliased? you really think mechanoreceptors have a sample and hold circuit?
15:58 < fenn> no aliased but averaged
15:58 < fenn> not*
15:58 < xtalmath> obviously theres a highpass and lowpass at work, and the highpass is around 250Hz
15:58 < fenn> there are different types of mechanoreceptors that are sensitive to different frequency ranges
16:00 < xtalmath> fenn: I still think the bandwidth is very high, swiping your fingertips over differently textured coins etc, or rough surfaces, translates the high spatial resolution in high temporal resolution, so it seems touch would have a natural selection pressure on high bandwidth..
16:01 < fenn> the temporal resolution isn't as high as you think; we sense vibration when feeling textures and small bumps, not individual pulses
16:01 < xtalmath> also averaging a 230Hz pressure wave over order 1Hz intervals, would be a constant background pressure
16:02 < fenn> yeah it's higher than 1Hz for sure
16:03 < xtalmath> I am thinking 250Hz is reasonable
16:09 < kanzure> you mean i don't have afm mechanoreceptors? >:(
16:10 < xtalmath> hmm, can one feel vibration from phono pickup needle when supplied with currents?
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17:23 < kanzure> sens foundation conference starts tomorrow http://www.sens.org/outreach/rejuvenation-biotechnology-conference-2015
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17:27 < drethelin> it's only one day right?
17:27 < drethelin> wait no
17:28 < drethelin> should I go to that kanzure
17:28 < kanzure> i was considering it, until i remembered it was tomorrow
17:28 < drethelin> woah, this thing is NOt cheap
17:29 < drethelin> I'm going to be in SF from the morning of the 20th
17:29 < kanzure> just walk in
17:29 < kanzure> nobody cares
17:29 < drethelin> yeah that's always a decent plan
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17:29 < drethelin> I'm not sure what I would even do there
17:30 < drethelin> apart from listen to some panels I guess
17:30 < drethelin> and chat with people
17:31 < drethelin> I could try to network or something
17:31 < kanzure> also you could hang out with fenn and delinquentme
17:31 < kanzure> yes, you should probably ignore the actual presentations
17:32 < kanzure> the one about thymus organoids might be fun
17:32 < kanzure> or the one about "loci for exceptional human longevity"
17:35 < kanzure> "young blood for old brains"
17:35 < drethelin> heh
17:35 < drethelin> that one sounds like a trap
17:36 < kanzure> wear a white wig
17:42 < maaku> oh awesome, did someone follow up on neural effects of the blood transplant result?
17:46 < kanzure> yep the presentation will be given by count von count
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17:53 < delinquentme> drethelin, yeah im here in Oakland
17:53 < delinquentme> bring me synthetic biologists
18:05 < drethelin> I don't have any of those
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18:37 < kanzure> https://github.com/munificent/vigil
18:37 < kanzure> "This is where Vigil sets itself apart from weaker languages that lack the courage of their convictions. When a Vigil program is executed, Vigil itself will monitor all oaths (implorations and swears) that have been made. If an oath is broken, the offending function (the caller in the case of implore and the callee in the case of swear) will be duly punished. How? Simple: it will be deleted from your source code. The only way to ensure ...
18:38 < kanzure> ... your program meets its requirements to absolutely forbid code that fails to do so. With Vigil, it will do this for you automatically. After enough runs, Vigil promises that all remaining code meets its oaths."
18:42 < drethelin> hah
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19:10 < kanzure> http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/aug/18/first-almost-fully-formed-human-brain-grown-in-lab-researchers-claim
19:10 < drethelin> where are some bioethicists when you really need them?
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19:14 < kanzure> why do you need bioethicists?
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19:39 < delinquentme> im on
19:39 < delinquentme> im one* .. just do it.
19:39 < delinquentme> yaaaaaaaaaay
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20:37 < nmz787> "Many were uncomfortable that the team had released information to the press without the science having gone through peer review."  pfft... hasn't sci-fi done this a ton already?
20:37 < nmz787> like that radio broadcast thing that freaked out a bunch of people who tuned in too late
20:41 < kanzure> er, you mean the most popular broadcast of all time?
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21:03 < kanzure> ycombinator startups did presentations today,
21:03 < kanzure> here is a software company for lab equipment https://www.tetrascience.com/
21:04 < kanzure> a company that aggregates financial services for cannabis stuff in colorado http://sericapay.com/
21:05 < kanzure> "big data for construction sites" (data surveillance) http://www.vernoxlabs.com/
21:06 < kanzure> someone offering a $300 mri scan http://klarismo.com/
21:07 < kanzure> someone bothered to make a sandwich making machine http://bistrobot.com/
21:07 < kanzure> point cameras at manufacturing stuff for quality control http://getscale.com/
21:08 < kanzure> spam all the chinese sites to sell shit http://techcrunch.com/2015/08/11/branch8/
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