--- Log opened Tue Oct 06 00:00:49 2015
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03:37 < kanzure> beep
03:38 < justanotheruser> bop
03:47 < kanzure> sup
03:49 < justanotheruser> trying to organize my getting stuff done setup
03:51 < justanotheruser> also trying to get stuff done
03:52 < kanzure> alright
04:01 < kanzure> neutrinos have non-zero mass https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10337755
04:06 < kanzure> "Dear readers, This month celebrates the 10 year anniversary of the classic book The Singularity Is Near, written by Ray Kurzweil, published in September 2005"
04:07 < kanzure> .title http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/151001/ncomms9414/full/ncomms9414.html
04:08 < kanzure> er.. nevermind. terrible paper.
04:26 < poppingtonic> beep boop
04:26 < justanotheruser> "Spire is a global nano-satellite powered data platform"
04:51 < nsh> BEEEEP
04:51 < nsh> .title http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature15263.html
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05:48 < poppingtonic> I like how nature.com links to references with context and links back to the point of the article with the reference. makes it slightly easier to read.
05:49 < poppingtonic> Permacoin
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06:07 < kanzure> nah not permacoin
06:07 < kanzure> don't bother
06:11 < justanotheruser> "Turning Bitcoin coin making into one big Wayback Machine"
06:11 < justanotheruser> this should be good
06:12 < justanotheruser> "Permacoins would be generated when users store archival data downloaded from a huge data pool. "
06:12 < justanotheruser> Oh man, this sounds verifiable without trust
06:12 < justanotheruser> meh, I'm just preaching to the choir, bye
06:15 < poppingtonic> namecoin + ipfs?
06:16  * kanzure shakes his head
06:16 < kanzure> ipfs's filecoin was never going to work
06:18  * Taek self promotes Sia
06:19 < kanzure> i'll allow it but only if you promise to include criticism you've received :P
06:19 < kanzure> "Computational Insights and the Theory of Evolution - Dr. Christos Papadimitriou" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KP0WFbdHhJM
06:20 < Taek> Sia had to be rewritten, it was originally designed as a generalize-storage-for-consensus platform, and was very broken
06:22 < Taek> the biggest issue with today's platform is host selection - that's left out of the protocol
06:22 < Taek> https://github.com/NebulousLabs/Sia
06:23 < kanzure> someone should do a non-cryptocurrency-based storage system where people can just arbitrarily join with more random hardware. central service provider treats them like contracted hosting parties. use default legal contract and put them through onboarding process, something somewhat automated. accept even small 1 MB providers.
06:24 < Taek> after the original Sia was demonstrated to be hopelessly broken, we very nearly picked a centralized model
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06:33 < kanzure> "bioprinter" http://2015.igem.org/Team:TU_Delft/Design
06:33 < kanzure> http://2015.igem.org/Results
07:07 < JayDugger> Good morning, everyone.
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07:18 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10338165
07:18 < yoleaux> Eugenics, Ready or Not | Hacker News
07:18 < kanzure> "If you want to be pedantic, having sex with people you find attractive is already eugenics." duh?
07:19 < Taek> I think a lot of people miss that point
07:19 < poppingtonic> hello JayDugger
07:20 < kanzure> Taek: maybe they just don't have much sex :-)
07:21 < poppingtonic> did they even mention iterated embryo selection? I mean, the bostrom paper on it describes exactly why someone would want to perform embryo selection, using Tay-Sachs as an example I think.
07:22 < Taek> poppingtonic: do we know enough about which genes are preferrable to make iterated embryo selection useful?
07:23 < kanzure> iterated embryo selection is so weird; there's no reason to use physical embryos for that.
07:23 < poppingtonic> no. the same requirement for single-generation embryo selection  hasn't even been fully explored yet.
07:24 < poppingtonic> whatever "fully explored" even means... this is so far out. I don't have references.
07:24 < Taek> I'm 95% sure that's going to be my next startup/profession
07:25 < kanzure> you can use somatic cell nuclear transfer to avoid all of the other embryo stages
07:25 < kanzure> not sure why bostrom wasn't informed about this
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07:26 < Taek> if you're referring to his book, he may have thought that to be too much detail - the general concept is close enough to understand what he's getting at
07:26 < kanzure> no i mean the paper. which book?
07:27 < Taek> he talks about iterated embryo selection in Superintelligence
07:27 < kanzure> alright
07:46 < poppingtonic> I think that's part of the mechanism he *skimmed*
07:47 < poppingtonic> he doesn' t go into too much depth in Superintelligence. "Beyond the scope of this book" is what he might have written
07:48 < poppingtonic> nickbostrom.com/embryo.pdf
07:52 < Taek> 404
07:53 < poppingtonic> nickbostrom.com/papers/embryo.pdf
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08:23 < poppingtonic> Taek what does Sia mean? Is it an acronym?
08:24 < Taek> nah, just a phonetic. loosely pulled from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sia_%28god%29
08:28 < fenn> super intelligent acronym
08:29 < poppingtonic> self-indicating acronym
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08:53 < fenn> "Francis Galton had done some early psychometry, and published his results claiming that the English upper class was the upper class because they were genetically superior to the lower classes. This result was widely accepted by both the progressives and the conservatives. The difference between the left and the right was not opposition to the principle of Social Darwinism, but just what should
08:53 < fenn> be done about it. The progressives advocated for eugenics to lift the lower classes from the 'genetic deficit' they were born into, while the traditional conservatives believed that this was unnecessary and that the situation as it existed was the natural order that shouldn't be fixed."
08:53 < fenn> history can be so embarrassing
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09:03 < fenn> another difference between humans and chimps, smaller jaw muscles: "we all share a defect in the gene that creates a protein called MYH16, a chief component of the powerful jaw muscles of many non-human primates http://www.nature.com/news/2004/040322/full/news040322-9.html
09:04 < kanzure> also various throat changes that assisted with vocalizations
09:05 < fenn> i haven't seen this one discussed much though, or at least i don't remember it
09:05 < kanzure> see bottom left of page 7 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/language/The%20evolution%20of%20human%20speech%20-%20Lieberman%20-%202007.pdf
09:06 < fenn> "Muscle sculpts bone," he says. "The structure can be modified by the forces acting on it."
09:06 < fenn> By doing away with large anchors for chewing muscles, our skull may have freed itself to grow into its modern, rounded shape, says Stedman. Powerful jaws may be incompatible with powerful brains, he suggests.
09:06 < nsh> On Sex, Evolution, and the Multiplicative Weights Update Algorithm -- http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/econcs/pubs/Meir_aamas15.pdf
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09:09 < kanzure> yes i suppose over time muscle might be more important than bone, so the bone gets pushed around to accomodate the useful muscle
09:09 < kanzure> (not in a single individual's lifetime)
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09:10 < fenn> no he means the muscle literally pushes the bone around during development
09:10 < fenn> with mechanical forces
09:11 < fenn> fig 3 in that lieberman paper is interesting; i didn't realized the clustering of vowels was so clean and symmetrical
09:11 < fenn> realize*
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09:23 < poppingtonic> One thing I got from fenn's Galton quote is to place very little trust in the current time-slice of civilization's notion of "that which is good and should be promoted", if it is not evidence-based.
09:24 < kanzure> how about "party lines are nonsense"?
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09:30 < poppingtonic> Taek: from the paper: "Standard practice today involves the creation of fewer than 10 embryos. Selection among greater
09:30 < poppingtonic> numbers than that would require multiple IVF cycles, which is expensive and burdensome. 1-in-10
09:30 < poppingtonic> selection may thus represent an upper limit of what would currently be practically feasible. New
09:30 < poppingtonic> techniques for maturing eggs in vitro might make the creation of more embryos feasible, though with
09:30 < poppingtonic> diminishing returns.
09:30 < poppingtonic> "
09:31 < fenn> again, we can do much better than just selection
09:31 < fenn> here's a bunch of low hanging fruit http://diyhpl.us/wiki/genetic-modifications/
09:31 < poppingtonic> kanzure: that too
09:33 < kanzure> "maturing eggs in vitro" is skippable.. why bother going to eggs when you can just setup the problem better?
09:33  * fenn looks around for erasmus
09:34 < fenn> because cloning is bad mmkay
09:34 < kanzure> i mean yes it's useful to mature eggs in vitro. sure. but the point was to.. er.
09:34 < kanzure> oh is that the problem?
09:34 < poppingtonic> these are very cool fenn
09:34 < poppingtonic> thanks
09:34 < poppingtonic> the fruits, i mean ;)
09:35 < poppingtonic> The lactase persistence section mentions that other SNPs are predictive but doesn't mention which ones.
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09:37 < fenn> also we can directly correct undesirable mutations with TALENs, CRISPR, zinc finger nucleases, and many other gene therapy vectors and site-directed mutagenesis schemes
09:37 < fenn> instead of waiting around for the mutation to magically fix itself and select for it
09:39 < fenn> genetics is pretty boring so far because nobody does experiments on things that matter
09:39 < fenn> this is why we have to go dig up bodies of dead nobel prize winners
09:40 < fenn> also people with musical talent, good looks, historical political figures, etc
09:41 < kanzure> yes the focus on pathologies-only in science is very weird
09:42 < fenn> some of these factors will turn out to be epigenetic and won't show up in their descendants, nevermind the difficulties of figuring out which genes are important only from descendants
09:43 < fenn> there should be a "notable people who had this SNP" section on every page in SNPedia
09:43 < kanzure> mutantpedia?
09:44 < fenn> is that a thing?
09:44 < kanzure> no :-(
09:45 < kanzure> but there is an x-men wiki
09:45 < fenn> i feel gross saying it, but there's a lot of room for branding and marketing in genetic alterations
09:45 < fenn> "a study of 400 individuals" is not a captivating narrative
09:47 < fenn> you have to talk to people at their level; intelligence increasing modifications won't become widely popular if it involves reading statistical studies in scientific journals
09:47 < kanzure> i don't think that intelligence increase is necessarily the best way to frame it anyway
09:47 < kanzure> "better language acquisition" has been my go-to recently
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09:48 < fenn> please elaborate
09:48 < FourFire> fenn, or they will, but only amongst academic elites
09:48 < fenn> FourFire: exactly the people who don't need these modifications
09:48 < kanzure> speaking multiple languages is often deemed a sign of intelligence. but also it's a practical and useful skill.
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09:49 < kanzure> would be nice to demonstrate minimal exposure to multiple languages and somewhat adequate verbal skills in each
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09:49 < FourFire> well I wouldn't say "don't need", but yeah, others will need them more
09:49 < fenn> english is obliterating native languages all over the world anyway..
09:50 < fenn> i guess you could market it to non-english countries as "your baby will be fluent in english by age 2!"
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09:50 < fenn> USA will probably ban genetic modifications soon enough
09:51 < fenn> if not already
09:51 < kanzure> right after they ban sex, amirite?
09:51 < fenn> pretty sure it's illegal
09:51 < fenn> babies come from the stork
09:52 < FourFire> heh, anyone who's rich enough will just travel another country to do the gene therapy
09:52 < kanzure> there's a certain subgroup that i think could be trivially marketed to
09:52 < fenn> again, the people who don't "need" it
09:52 < FourFire> ^
09:52 < kanzure> especially for muscle development and intelligence
09:52 < FourFire> ^
09:52 < fenn> what?
09:52 < kanzure> nevermind
09:53 < kanzure> it's the same group that is super interested in surrogacy heh
09:53 < FourFire> kanzure, you really feel annoyed by them, don't you?
09:53 < kanzure> who?
09:53 < FourFire> oh no I guessed wrong.
09:53 < FourFire> yeah that too
09:53 < fenn> fourfire try forming complete thoughts and writing them out
09:54 < FourFire> funny, I was told that back when I joined that other channel
09:55 < fenn> i'm just trying to fix some kind of communications breakdown here
09:55 < FourFire> I assumed kanzure was referring to silicon valley nerd types, which overlaps substantially with Lesswrong,
09:55 < fenn> oh
09:55 < FourFire> but he is actually referring to transpersons
09:55 < poppingtonic> too true.. that's what i thought
09:55 < FourFire> (which also has an odd overlap with LW)
09:56 < fenn> afaict the lesswrong people are not really interested in having children, i may be wrong though
09:56 < fenn> too busy saving the world or whatever
09:56 < kanzure> no i was not talking about transpersons
09:56 < kanzure> and i was not talking about nerd types
09:56 < FourFire> yeah, I said it, I guessed wrong.
09:56 < fenn> what sort of person is interested in surrogacy?
09:56 < FourFire> a female without the equipment
09:56 < kanzure> internet masculinity subculture :P
09:57 < fenn> i only know one and he's an outlier
09:57 < FourFire> transpersons are outliers
09:57 < kanzure> there's not enough of them anyway
09:57 < fenn> i guess, it's pretty rare but not genius-level rare
09:57 < fenn> i think i read 0.2%-0.5%
09:57 < FourFire> yeah and in LW it's more like 1.5%
10:01 < fenn> bah impossible to get reliable statistics from the internet
10:01 < drethelin> lots of people in china want surrogates apparently
10:01 < drethelin> to sneak around some of the 1 child laws?
10:01 < kanzure> how about to sneak around 9 months of shit?
10:01 < kanzure> *9 months of feeling like shit?
10:01 < fenn> i thought they changed that law recently
10:01 < drethelin> well that too
10:02 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-child_policy#Relaxation_of_policy
10:02 < fenn> "Under the new policy, families can have two children if one parent is an only child."
10:03 < kanzure> "oops we waited so long that families missed their fertility window, bwahaha"
10:04 < fenn> china's policy is inherently eugenic because it encourages people to plan out when and how to have children, rather than just whatever happens
10:05 < fenn> the gender ratio imbalance is evidence of this, i guess.
10:12 < fenn> no takers huh
10:12 < fenn> <- bad troll
10:15 < fenn> "families with children with disabilities have different policies and families whose first child suffers from physical disability, mental illness, or intellectual disability are allowed to have more children"
10:15 < fenn> "In most areas, families are allowed to apply to have a second child if their first-born is a daughter"
10:15 < kanzure> bad idea
10:15 < fenn> yeah nobody ever mentioned that tidbit
10:16 < fenn> that would lead to 50% more males even without any intervention, right?
10:17 < fenn> or 25%
10:17 < kanzure> am i still confused about the physical number of dna molecules per human cell?
10:17 < fenn> 46
10:18 < fenn> unless you have down's syndrome or something
10:18 < kanzure> but.. plasmids?
10:18 < fenn> humans don't have plasmids
10:21 < Taek> "...there's a lot of room for branding and marketing in genetic alterations" - Genes by Dr. Dre
10:21 < fenn> yes, you too could have dr. dre as a child...
10:22 < xrr> I ate 100 mg vitamin E for 70 days. Achieved nothing: http://oi58.tinypic.com/70ax74.jpg
10:22 < fenn> i wonder if there is a celebrity sperm bank
10:22 <@maaku> one child policy was never uniformally applied
10:22 <@maaku> it was always a matter of kickbacks to the local party official
10:26 < fenn> my new favorite insect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Myrmecia_pilosula_specimen_mandibles.jpg
10:26 < Taek> fenn: mathematical mistake. If every parent adopts the strategy of stopping at the first male child, you still end up with 50% males and females.
10:26 < kanzure> i don't think those mandibles can close
10:27 < fenn> female jack jumper ants (myrmecia pilosula) have 2 chromosomes; males have 1 chromosome
10:28 < fenn> "They prey on small insects and use their barbless stinger to kill other insects by with injecting venom."
10:28 < kanzure> what were the things you wanted to do with super-sized insects, again?
10:29 < kanzure> something about food, but some other stuff i forget too?
10:29 < fenn> TRY AND TAKE OVER THE WORLD
10:30 < kanzure> yes because the super-sized wasps are going to construct human-habitable hexagonal living facilities everywhere, sure.
10:30 < fenn> you are catching on to my schemes
10:31 < kanzure> iirc partly it was just a (very reasonable) "it will be awesome, come on"
10:32 < fenn> i am embarrassed you even have to ask
10:32 < fenn> http://chronicle.augusta.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/superphoto/12760807.jpg
10:35 < fenn> https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/ca/a5/fd/caa5fd5c3fc6996a9c49ea3e71996cea.jpg
10:36 < fenn> the possibilities are endless
10:40 < Taek> I imagine that you could learn a lot about favorable genes by applying massive amounts of machine learning, but you'd probably need 10^7-10^9 datapoints according to my early research
10:43 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/irc/135_Daruma%21_ID1-Monochrome_Section_Art_7.jpg wasps could be selected for physical size and adaptability to implanted cybernetic control systems
10:44 < fenn> this is from intron depot 1
10:45 < fenn> oh urlcodes in filenames are bad
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10:54 < fenn> somehow i have failed to find lots of dinotopia-like images of humans and giant insects whimsically living in harmony
10:55 <@maaku> Nausicaä
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10:56 < fenn> yeh i'm thinking like a giant rhinoceros beetle pulling a plough
10:57 < delinquentme> ooh fenn
10:57 < delinquentme> i have pics for yew
10:57 < fenn> hexagons or gtfo
10:58 < delinquentme> could you settle for triangles?
10:58 < fenn> yes
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10:59 < fenn> http://animemiz.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/nausicaa3.jpg
11:00 < kanzure> wtf happened to that r2d2 unit?
11:00 < fenn> the girl is clearly genetically engineered, note the enormous cranium
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11:02 < delinquentme> http://imgur.com/gVZaVba
11:02 < delinquentme> there we go
11:02 < delinquentme> it was cool
11:02 < delinquentme> it was big
11:02 < delinquentme> and it gets bigger
11:03 < fenn> is this alex iglesias' thing
11:04 < fenn> i only see one triangle
11:06 < fenn> grr stupid time portals
11:07 < kanzure> why giant wasps instead of giant cybernetic eagles?
11:07 < fenn> eagles are picky and not easily programmable
11:10 < kanzure> http://rs1img.memecdn.com/planet-hopper_c_1672593.jpg
11:10 < kanzure> delinquentme: ^
11:10 < kanzure> ah, better version http://www.prikol.ru/wp-content/gallery/june-2013/podborka-28062013-33.jpg
11:11 < delinquentme> hah wow. . yes definitely death metal cricket
11:11 < delinquentme> fenn, thats the giant mech / robot thats residing here in oakland
11:11 < delinquentme> you've seen the america vas japan robot fight right?
11:13 < kanzure> "heavier than a sparrow"
11:14 < fenn> i've seen some name-calling on twitter but not much else
11:16 < kanzure> deinacrida heteracantha, titanus giganteus, megasoma elephas elephas, megasoma actaeon, goliathus goliatus
11:23 < fenn> interesting that IHMC is collaborating on the giant robot battle
11:29 < fenn> "you have a choice: watch another cat video on youtube, or make your childhood dreams come true. what's it gonna be?"
11:29 < fenn> that's not the most motivating thing they could have said
11:30 < delinquentme> fenn, i guess that means i like cats more than you do
11:30 < fenn> is this mark 1 robot at nimby?
11:32 < kanzure> weird that the wiki doesn't have "biologically-plausible things that nature hasn't entirely stumbled into yet"
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11:33 < kanzure> or, rather, "biologically-plausible that nature hasn't had good reason to consistently select"
11:35 < kanzure> not sure where to source that sort of material from. orion's arm isn't quite the right source.
11:35 < fenn> there's some stuff in http://diyhpl.us/wiki/human-modifications.csv but not nearly enough
11:36 < kanzure> yeah we should get better at documenting potential human genetic alterations. including gene+cybernetic modifications. or other combinations of things.
11:38 < kanzure> "we should drop pigs from airplanes and select the ones that survive"
11:38 < fenn> you would get bouncing pigs, not flying pigs
11:38 < kanzure> wasn't aiming for a flying pig
11:38 < kanzure> just pigs that don't explode on impact
11:38 < fenn> ok then. hogs away!
11:39 < fenn> in general i'm still skeptical of the "throw a bunch of pigs at the wall and see what sticks" approach
11:40 < fenn> surely there are more efficient search strategies
11:41 < kanzure> well, genetic engineering helps, but bruteforce is surprisingly effective over the past few billion years
11:42 < fenn> i hope the error in that statement becomes obvious
11:42 < kanzure> humans produce a few billion years per year
11:46 < delinquentme> fenn, its this robot : http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/07/tech/giant-robot-fight-challenge-accepted/
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11:56 < fenn> kanzure what about just selecting for giant insects? it should be easy right?
11:57 < fenn> the test is very objective, just the total body mass
11:57 < kanzure> sure. but i still need reminders about the motivations here, besides being awesome.
11:58 < fenn> you could optimize your selection strategy
11:58 < fenn> then use that strategy on other dimensions
11:58 < fenn> like intelligence or whatever, where it isn't so easy to measure
11:58 < kanzure> no no i mean.. iirc there was something about "grow giant crickets instead of cows, cricket meat is more efficient" or something.
11:58 < fenn> meh
11:59 < fenn> smaller crickets would be more efficient i think
11:59 < kanzure> as for cybernetics- not sure, i guess you could have flying machines that last more than 10-30 minutes, which would be nice.
12:00 < fenn> economics, it should be way cheaper to grow a wasp than to build a flying robot
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12:00 < kanzure> still needs all the electronics
12:00 < kanzure> i think you need cheaper than feeding a flying robot
12:00 < kanzure> *you mean
12:00 < fenn> .wik darpa cyborg beetle
12:00 < yoleaux> "A cyborg (short for "cybernetic organism") is a being with both organic and biomechatronic parts. The term was coined in 1960 by Manfred Clynes and Nathan S. Kline. D." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyborg
12:00 < fenn> dammit
12:03 < delinquentme> also .. next year. I'm thinking about presenting my xenozoonosis hack at deacon
12:03 < delinquentme> defcon*
12:03 < delinquentme> anyone want to go on stage w me?
12:05 < fenn> briefly, what is your hack?
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12:09 < fenn> .title http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/Science-Fiction-News.asp?NewsNum=1421
12:09 < yoleaux> HI-MEMS: Control Circuits Embedded In Pupal Stage Successfully: Science Fiction in the News
12:09 < fenn> Read more about Roachsters, full-size anthropod-based vehicles with embedded control structures from Easton's 1990 book Sparrowhawk.
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12:11 < fenn> heh they have wheels
12:11 < fenn> and spinal cords :\
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12:32 < kanzure> could be new line of hotwheels
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12:39 < kanzure> "hello, welcome to the future, please take your flying car and gtfo"
12:40 < kanzure> gah was bit for multiple days debugging that importaddress rescan=True is the default
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13:20 < kanzure> justanotheruser: part of the magic is to pick good tasks with high leverage. doing a million tasks is useless if the tasks are poor quality (even if the quality of the tasks performed is high-quality).
13:20 < kanzure> *quality of the work performed is high-quality)
13:22 < kanzure> although if you become too discerning about task quality then you turn into jrayhawk
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13:38 < jrayhawk> the causation probably goes both ways
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14:35 < kanzure> re: lack of evidence of stars being moved https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10252222
14:35 < kanzure> "If binary star systems were systems in which stars were moved into the system, we should see evidence of stars being moved and consumed. I have also read about stars being created (e.g., starting a fusion process with all the hydrogen and helium in Jupiter, Saturn, etc.)."
14:35 < kanzure> "There is currently no evidence which suggests stars are being moved. We should see either large gravitational tugs or engines such as Shkadov thrusters. The latter should be plainly visible. The former should be easily detected by extrasolar planet detection methods. Unless the tugs are spherical, the light curves of the tugs would definitely pique interest. In any case, moving a star seems a rather extreme and expensive measure. It is ...
14:35 < kanzure> ... probably more effective to consume the star onsite and use the energy locally or send only the energy back."
14:35 < kanzure> "There seems to be no evidence of stars being consumed, either. Dyson spheres (or swarms) have actually been searched for locally by comparing visible and infrared wavelengths over sections of the sky. None have been found. Intergalactic searches have also been done by looking for galaxies which glow too brightly in the far infrared. No luck."
14:35 < kanzure> "It is not just a question of a mistaken belief that the artificial is natural. The properties of light are the same here on Earth as they are billions of light years away. Further, for all those galaxies and stars to be engineered in the same way aross billions of light years (with some points being unable to communicate with others since the Big Bang), is all but impossible. Life would have to evolve at effectively the same rate and ...
14:35 < kanzure> ... come up with the same solutions in all those hundreds of billions of galaxies (and yet somehow be different here in the Milky Way). Given the variety of life on Earth and the variety of solutions it has evolved, that seems unlikely."
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15:34 < kanzure> http://www.theguardian.com/science/head-quarters/2015/oct/05/whats-the-deal-with-modafinil-nootropic-cognitive-enhancer
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16:01 < fenn> why would thrusters be visible? a good thruster sends the exhaust particles in a line
16:02 < fenn> even a partial dyson sphere of perfectly flat mirrors would be almost invisible
16:04 <@maaku> except for the heat signature
16:04 < fenn> that's not really "plainly visible"
16:05 <@maaku> agreed; i don't think adequate looking has been done
16:06 <@maaku> but then I'd also expect any space faring intelligence that came from natural evolution to rapidly expand into the cosmos at near the speed of light
16:06 <@maaku> so the fact that we don't see them isn't very interesting
16:09 < fenn> 2015-08-01.log:04:02 < fenn> "some of the more interesting SETI signal candidates (such as SHGb02+14a) appear to emanate from interstellar space rather than a star" https://entersingularity.wordpress.com/2014/06/10/dark-extraterrestrial-intelligence/   an essay about the implications of thermal noise on the probable location of computronium
16:09 < fenn> basically he says that you should expect to find advanced civilizations far out in the middle of nowhere, away from unpredictable noise sources
16:09 < fenn> because computers work better at low temperatures
16:11 <@maaku> present computers do..
16:13 < fenn> it's kinda funny because the "zones of intelligence" idea was a purely literary plot device
16:14 < mgin> ...
16:14 < fenn> ...
16:14 < mgin> wouldn't you expect large energy sources where a computronium is
16:14 < fenn> read the article
16:14 < mgin> but probably no emissions
16:14 < mgin> or little
16:15 <@maaku> mgin: you would not expect energy emissions near a resource-optimizing intelligence
16:15 < mgin> right
16:15 < mgin> well
16:15 < mgin> except it's probably going to try to expand in every direction as fast as possible
16:19 < mgin> are any of you guys in school
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16:42 < kanzure> we are all far too cool for school
16:43 < mgin> really?
16:43 < kanzure> approximately!
16:43 < mgin> where does one find interesting people to talk to
16:45 < kanzure> dunno, i just send lots of bookmarks to people by email until they become a friend
16:47 < mgin> what people?
16:47 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mac.html
16:57 < kanzure> i wonder what orion's arm says about computronium anyway, http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/4637faafa6437
16:58 < kanzure> huh, not much
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17:51 < kanzure> https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsspeculation/comments/3nndso/pitch_an_anthology_film/
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18:14 < kanzure> wrldpc1: welcome back
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18:48 < maaku> mgin: in school? try clubs
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18:54 < mgin> no
18:56 < catern> i try to pretend to be a grad student at my university
18:56 < catern> undergrads are boring
18:56 < catern> (including me)
18:56 < mgin> you're an undergrad?
18:56 < mgin> what are you studying?
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19:04 < Jawmare> oh hi, this channel looks interesting
19:05 < Jawmare> heard you guys need chemists?
19:07 < catern> mgin: computer science
19:07 < catern> (formerly economics, but the undergrads were too boring)
19:07 < fenn> hello chemist person
19:15 < fenn> Jawmare: what sort of chemistry do you do?
19:16 < Jawmare> still an undergrad
19:16 < fenn> "try to pretend to be a grad student"
19:16 < Jawmare> but most of my interest is in organic/inorganic synthesis
19:17 < Jawmare> and some experimental pchem
19:18 < mgin> is anyone post grad
19:18 < fenn> we have some problems choosing linkers and solvents for DNA synthesis
19:18 < mgin> what is life
19:19 < fenn> i'm afraid most of that context is swapped out at the moment for me
19:21 < catern> fenn: yes? what's wrong with pretending to be a grad student?
19:21 < fenn> oh, i was giving advice
19:21 < catern> mgin: good channel to ask
19:21 < fenn> "don't be boring. sit, stay. good boy."
19:22 < mgin> ?
19:22 < mgin> are there any other channels
19:22 < Jawmare> biochemistry
19:22 < fenn> life is DNA and RNA in a phospholipid bilayer membrane
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19:29 < kanzure> Jawmare: we are doing dna synthesis using phosphoramidite method (or some other better method if necessary)
19:29 < kanzure> Jawmare: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/dna/synthesis/notes/
19:30 < kanzure> Jawmare: giant machine can be built, but want to have someone around to help tweak the chemistry and machine to be chemical-compatible with uh.. reality.
19:33 < Jawmare> whats wrong with DMAP?
19:33 < Jawmare> (except it is very toxic)
19:33 < kanzure> dwho?
19:33 < kanzure> .wik 4-Dimethylaminopyridine
19:33 < Jawmare> 3. Capping mixture of acetic anhydride and 1-methylimidazole (or less often, DMAP) as catalysts
19:33 < yoleaux> "4-Dimethylaminopyridine (DMAP) is a derivative of pyridine with the chemical formula (CH3)2NC5H4N. This colourless solid is of interest because it is more than 10,000x more basic than pyridine, owing to the inductive effect of the NMe2 substituent." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4-Dimethylaminopyridine
19:34 < kanzure> i think because of simplicity of acquiring anhydride
19:34 < kanzure> but---- dna synthesis is also sorta cargo cult, so if there's better ways, then we should do the better things
19:34  * fenn bangs coconuts together
19:40 < Jawmare> other than that, there is not a lot of improvement I can see
19:41 < kanzure> well, improveents aren't necessary- but there are important chemistry details to this that i'm 100% sure that i don't know about
19:42 < kanzure> during design and operation of the machine itself, the expertise of someone more familiar with chemistry than i am would be very useful (my background is actually pokemon training, so what the shit does that say?)
19:42 < fenn> as a potential lab monkey i'm quite concerned about toxicity
19:42 < fenn> there is literally no information on the safety of DNA synthesis byproducts and reagents
19:42 < Jawmare> but machine doesn't die from toxicity
19:42 < Jawmare> msds sheet
19:42 < fenn> no information in the msds
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19:42 < fenn> just says it's not explosive or whatever
19:43 < Jawmare> all the reagents have msds sheet
19:43 < fenn> but will i die of cancer in 3 years?
19:43 < kanzure> plus there's lots of obvious chemistry things that are non-obvious to us... this is why we need an extra person. or two.
19:44 < Jawmare> Did you guys attempt to do the reaction before?
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19:45 < kanzure> nope, although i did purchase an old and busted dna synthesizer (it's missing a single tube)- just for laughs, reverse engineering, etc.
19:45 < Jawmare> or are there people who did the same reaction before and have paper describing how they attempt it?
19:45 < kanzure> https://www.takeitapart.com/guide/94
19:45 < kanzure> there are some papers but lots of steps are missing
19:45 < kanzure> these are the sorts of papers that assume prior knowledge
19:45 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/DNA/abi391/
19:46 < Jawmare>  I mean the reaction itself, with beaker, rounded bottom etc
19:46 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/DNA/POSaM:%20a%20fast,%20flexible,%20open-source,%20inkjet%20oligonucleotide%20synthesizer%20and%20microarrayer.pdf
19:46 < kanzure> yes here is an old paper describing manual approach,
19:46 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/DNA/Syringe%20method%20for%20stepwise%20chemical%20synthesis%20of%20oligonucleotides.pdf
19:46 < kanzure> really old versions of the reaction chemistry are described here http://diyhpl.us/wiki/dna/dna-synthesis.html
19:47 < Jawmare> and if you need any papers, just fill this : https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1l9G5TDDwNJrm5QDbNPw7vE7jDaAXwPYC5s_olnvzBQs/viewform
19:47 < Jawmare> I have access to most of the journals
19:48 < kanzure> much appreciated, we used to run paperbot which would receive requests over irc for papers and then automatically grab 'em https://github.com/kanzure/paperbot
19:48 < Jawmare> So first thing is to replicate the manual apporach
19:48 < kanzure> (at the moment paperbot is out of commission because of a few bugs)
19:48 < fenn> https://azcobiotech.com/cepa-bulk-dg-ibu-20-8110.html can't find msds now sigh
19:48 < Jawmare> see if you can get the same result doing it by hand
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19:49 < kanzure> yeah i would be willing to pay someone to do manual approach and document everything, including materials, yields, glassware quality, etc.
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19:50 < Jawmare> http://eng.bioneer.com/literatures/msds/Reagents_MSDS/dG%28Ib%29-CE%20%20Phosphoramidite.pdf
19:50 < Jawmare> thats the msds
19:53 < Jawmare> (If it is not availiable on the internet, usually a email to sales will get to the msds, even if you didn't buy it from them)
19:54 < kanzure> i suspect it's the solvents that fenn should be more concerned about :-)
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19:55 < fenn> the 3-methoxypropionitrile sounded concerning
19:55 < Jawmare> http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/MSDS/MSDS/PleaseWaitMSDSPage.do?language=&country=CA&brand=ALDRICH&productNumber=65290&PageToGoToURL=http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/product/aldrich/65290?lang=en&region=CA
19:55 < Jawmare> its on aldrich
19:55 < Jawmare> (the first thing you search for msds is from aldrich
19:56 < fenn> anyway like i said my context is swapped out and it's past bedtime
19:56 < kanzure> seeya
19:58 < fenn> "to the best of our knowledge ... toxicological properties have not been thoroughly investigated."
19:59 < fenn> "do not snort the powder, you crack monkey."
19:59 < kanzure> aren't they supposed to import toxology data from similar compounds' msds?
19:59 < Jawmare> ?
19:59 < kanzure> well it's not like we don't know anything
19:59 < kanzure> usually strongly acidic families of chemicals are going to be strongly acidic
20:00 < fenn> i'm not worried about acidity
20:00 < kanzure> i was just exampling
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20:15 < kanzure> from kahless, through kahless, into kahless we fly
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20:22 < delinquentme> "For all temperatures and salt concentrations employed in present study, base-stacking is the main stabilizing factor in the DNA double helix. A•T pairing is always destabilizing and G•C pairing contributes almost no stabilization. Base-stacking interaction dominates not only in the duplex overall stability but also significantly contributes into the dependence of the duplex stability on its sequence."
20:22 < delinquentme> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1360284/
20:23 < kanzure> .title
20:23 < yoleaux> Base-stacking and base-pairing contributions into thermal stability of the DNA double helix
20:23 < kanzure> guess i had that coming
20:23 < delinquentme> Im researching the energy involved in the bonds
20:24 < delinquentme> it also just helped me realize that proximity... but also the rotational position
20:24 < delinquentme> matter in this kind of process
20:24 < delinquentme> weh.
20:25 < delinquentme> makes me wonder if i had the DNA free floating in a nanotube ... if it would rotate to meet the other strand when brought into sufficient proximity
20:26 < kanzure> carbon nanotubes are not solid surfaces
20:27 < delinquentme> true
20:28 < delinquentme> but the same question applies to any nanotube
20:33 < Jawmare> delinquentme, you can use computational calculation
20:34 < delinquentme> kanzure, would nano engineer be something useful for this?
20:34 < delinquentme> like Jawmare suggested?  ... i suppose I could do these calls by hand but maybe theres a better way
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22:21 < wrldpc1> ty
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22:22 < wrldpc1> touched on skdb in a recent podcast
22:22 < wrldpc1> would love to have you and/or ben on to discuss in greater detail sometime
22:23 < wrldpc1> https://soundcloud.com/getbusypodcast/5-dangerous-populists-entrepreneurial-scientists-group-openecology-skdb-cloning
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--- Log closed Wed Oct 07 00:00:50 2015