--- Log opened Wed Oct 07 00:00:50 2015 00:08 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@2602:306:c4d8:8420:1545:bb18:b708:482a] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:08 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:23 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@114-30-11.connect.netcom.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:23 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@114-30-11.connect.netcom.no] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:34 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@114-30-11.connect.netcom.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:38 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@114-30-11.connect.netcom.no] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:21 < Guest41021> delinquentme: nanoengineer would need a different molecular dynamics simulator I would think 01:21 -!- Guest41021 is now known as maaku 01:25 -!- maaku [~quassel@botbot.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:29 -!- maaku [~quassel@botbot.xen.prgmr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:30 -!- maaku is now known as Guest45905 01:36 -!- Guest45905 is now known as maaku 02:08 -!- poppingtonic [~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:09 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@2602:306:c4d8:8420:1545:bb18:b708:482a] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:22 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:58 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@114-30-11.connect.netcom.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:04 -!- Houshalter [~Houshalte@oh-71-50-57-55.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:31 -!- poppingtonic [~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:50 -!- superkuh [~superkuh@unaffiliated/superkuh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:51 -!- superkuh [~superkuh@unaffiliated/superkuh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:09 -!- poppingtonic [~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:14 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:16 < nsh> .tw https://twitter.com/DrRimmer/status/651546531900882944 04:16 < yoleaux> Landmark High Court of Australia gene patents decision D'Arcy v Myriad Genetics Inc [2015] HCA 35 #auslaw #auspol http://eresources.hcourt.gov.au/downloadPdf/2015/HCA/35 (@DrRimmer) 04:27 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:16 -!- c0rw|away [~c0rw1n@91.176.79.56] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:16 -!- c0rw|awa_ [~c0rw1n@91.176.79.56] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:19 -!- augur [~augur@c-73-46-94-9.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:37 -!- augur [~augur@c-73-46-94-9.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:47 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeepkr@111.235.64.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:57 < kanzure> https://www.ietf.org/tao.html 05:57 < kanzure> http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-October/011457.html 06:09 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:11 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:11 -!- Viper168_ is now known as Viper168 06:12 -!- CaptHindsight [~2020@unaffiliated/capthindsight] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:25 -!- AmbulatoryCortex [~Ambulator@173-31-155-69.client.mchsi.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:30 -!- duper [super@ca2.blackcatz.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:30 < kanzure> .title http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26344198 06:30 < yoleaux> Glycine receptor mechanism elucidated by electron cryo-microscopy. - PubMed - NCBI 06:32 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-93-251.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:46 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:55 -!- wrldpc1 [~ben@bai859b91ac.bai.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: wrldpc1] 06:56 -!- duper [super@ca2.blackcatz.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:56 < kanzure> radiation-induced mutagenesis would be an interesting and biologically-plausible target for artificial selection, especially if you select for ability to control or direct what the cells do with the radiation-induced damage 06:58 < kanzure> there's probably a mutagenesis technique that is already doing that 06:59 < kanzure> and, by restricting the physical confines of where radiation-damage happens (or is accumulated or something), you are cutting off large chunks of possibility space by not having mutations explore those areas. 06:59 < kanzure> nsh: ^ 07:00 < nsh> right 07:00 < nsh> and sexual reproduction selects populations for mixability of genes and gene-environment interactions 07:00 < nsh> which radiation is just one example of 07:01 < kanzure> oh right, i was trying to think of non-site-directed-mutagenesis things (nothing i just said makes sense if you know about site-directed mutagenesis) 07:01 < kanzure> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Site-directed_mutagenesis 07:01 < kanzure> .wik directed mutagenesis 07:01 < yoleaux> "Directed mutagenesis, also known as directed mutation, is a hypothesis proposing that organisms can respond to environmental stresses through directing mutations to certain genes or areas of the genome." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directed_mutagenesis 07:02 < kanzure> yes so something like that- except instead of directing mutations to just genes or genome areas, to other active areas of cell life such as ribosomes or whatever. 07:02 < kanzure> and even if "directed mutagenesis" is currently false, i think that counts as "biologically-plausible" and something you could coerce cells into actually doing 07:03 < kanzure> .title http://jb.asm.org/content/189/6/2291.short 07:03 < yoleaux> Amplification of lac Cannot Account for Adaptive Mutation to Lac+ in Escherichia coli 07:05 < kanzure> these are interesting, https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=5312670223307049865&as_sdt=5,44&sciodt=0,44&hl=en 07:07 < nsh> hmm 07:09 < kanzure> an okay overview http://rothlab.ucdavis.edu/publications/maisnier-patin_puzzle_2014.pdf 07:14 < kanzure> also i think there was an igem project where there was a genetic circuit that targeted mutagenesis or assisted with some selection experiment somehow. don't know which igem project. will look later. 07:27 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:30 < kanzure> .title https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25832815 07:30 < yoleaux> Transoceanic migration by a 12 g songbird. - PubMed - NCBI 07:37 < kanzure> http://cen.acs.org/articles/93/web/2015/10/Exploring-Molecular-Basis-Runners-High.html 07:44 -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:47 -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:49 -!- maaku [~quassel@botbot.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:51 -!- maaku__ [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:51 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:51 -!- heath [~heath@unaffiliated/ybit] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:51 -!- heath [~heath@unaffiliated/ybit] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:51 -!- maaku is now known as Guest4879 07:52 -!- maaku__ [~quassel@botbot.xen.prgmr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:55 -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:05 -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:13 -!- PatrickRobotham [uid18270@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mwwqmyeaaifwvpiz] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 08:23 < fenn> someone built my tensegrity hexapod idea: http://youtu.be/cJCsomGwdk0 08:23 < fenn> and did a really good job of it 08:32 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeepkr@111.235.64.135] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:37 -!- c0rw|awa_ is now known as c0rw1n 08:40 -!- poppingtonic [~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 08:42 -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:44 < JayDugger> That's quite an impressive motion base. Good work, Germany! 08:48 < fenn> fraunhofer built another one that does 20g accelerations (not for humans) 08:48 < fenn> this one has the correct cable arrangement though 08:53 -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:58 -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:58 -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:13 -!- eudoxia_ [~eudoxia@r167-57-61-219.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:14 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-93-251.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:20 -!- poppingtonic [brian@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:36 -!- maaku__ is now known as maaku 09:40 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@2602:306:35fa:d500:f5e0:f867:a11d:8d52] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:43 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:49 -!- cpopell`werk [~cpopell@c-76-26-144-132.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:05 -!- cpopell`werk [~cpopell@c-76-26-144-132.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:21 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:21 -!- poppingtonic [brian@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:22 -!- eudoxia_ [~eudoxia@r167-57-61-219.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:27 -!- seanph [~seanph@101.230.15.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:28 -!- seanph [~seanph@101.230.15.34] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:30 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:32 -!- seanph [~seanph@101.230.15.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:41 -!- seanph [~seanph@101.230.15.34] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:41 -!- seanph [~seanph@101.230.15.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:42 -!- seanph [~seanph@101.230.15.34] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:46 -!- seanph [~seanph@101.230.15.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:28 -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:39 -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:50 -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:54 -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:55 -!- fiddlerwoaroof [~edwlan@unaffiliated/fiddlerwoaroof] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:56 -!- fiddlerwoaroof [~edwlan@unaffiliated/fiddlerwoaroof] has left ##hplusroadmap ["WeeChat 1.0.1"] 12:11 < Jawmare> so my prof today went over how they do solid phase (polymer substrate) peptide synthesis 12:13 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:21 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:24 -!- yash [~ffffff@2602:306:35fa:d500:f5e0:f867:a11d:8d52] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:26 < Jawmare> fenn: http://www.atdbio.com/content/17/Solid-phase-oligonucleotide-synthesis#Controlled-pore-glass-CPG 12:26 < Jawmare> have you read this before? 12:27 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@2602:306:35fa:d500:f5e0:f867:a11d:8d52] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:47 -!- dustinm- [~dustinm@105.ip-167-114-152.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:49 -!- dustinm [~dustinm@105.ip-167-114-152.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:52 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@2a02:270:2015:cafe:8010:21d5:83fb:d92] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:00 -!- fleshtheworld [~fleshthew@2602:306:cf0f:4c20:edc1:9d26:d6cf:155b] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:02 < kanzure> yup, that's essentially what we're aiming for, although for inkjet reasons maybe needs to be liquid phase (not entirely sure) 13:04 < Jawmare> workup on liquid phase is going to be a lot more work 13:05 -!- poppingtonic [~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:05 < kanzure> there's a group that has used an inkjet for this process before, including a writeup 13:05 < kanzure> http://bioinformatics.org/pogo/ 13:05 < kanzure> http://bioinformatics.org/pogo/POSAM_Man_Ch2_User_v1-0_040414.pdf 13:06 < kanzure> however, it is important to keep in mind that they were making dna hybridization arrays (just put oligos on a surface and keep 'em there), whereas we want to make large dna fragments like genes, multiple genes, or entire genomes. but this can be ignored for the moment i think. 13:15 < Jawmare> also when I look at the list of reagents... nothing too nasty that I don't want to work with 13:26 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@2a02:270:2015:cafe:8010:21d5:83fb:d92] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:27 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@195-235-11.connect.netcom.no] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:03 < CaptHindsight> liquid phase and with capability to cleave the oligos off the build slides/tray 14:04 < CaptHindsight> cleave, cap, uncap, join to next oligo 14:23 -!- nmz787_w [86868b4a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.134.134.139.74] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:23 < nmz787_w> look up PEGylated as a keyword for liquid phase synthesis 14:26 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@195-235-11.connect.netcom.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:26 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@195-235-11.connect.netcom.no] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:36 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@195-235-11.connect.netcom.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:41 -!- math3 [uid54897@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-moiylmahidudmlgo] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:58 -!- JayDugger1 [~jwdugger@108.19.186.58] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:00 -!- JayDugger [~jwdugger@108.19.186.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:02 < kanzure> http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/thai-villagers-worship-buffalo-crocodile-hybrid-1522931 15:02 < kanzure> well are they doing a dissection? 15:02 < kanzure> "much more likely that the creature suffered from poor skin" again someone should bother to do a basic dissection, geeze 15:07 < kanzure> telesocpe http://www.openspaceagency.com/ultrascope 15:38 -!- poppingtonic [~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:45 -!- wrldpc1 [~ben@bai859b91ac.bai.ne.jp] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:46 -!- poppingtonic [~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:58 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:35 < fenn> 41 megapixels is a lot of pixels 16:37 < fenn> it would be neat if they could combine multiple images from scopes around the world in real time 16:40 < fenn> "eventually enable the control of ‘scopes from anywhere in the world - specifically stacking images from multiple observations" 16:45 < fenn> the open space agency blog hasn't been updated since 2014 16:49 < kanzure> and where's the open-source-compatible licensing, etc. etc. the usual complaints, insert them here. 17:31 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:32 < kanzure> things i don't think work: tag clouds, argument maps, mind maps, tags, attempts at elucidating mathematical models from piles of text that weren't originally intended to be used for serializing mathematical models 17:33 < kanzure> also, most diagrams don't work. 17:34 < kanzure> perhaps the biggest concept i disagree with is words/language in general. whole thing was a bad idea. 17:35 < kanzure> ((context: someone emailed me asking for corpus data re: my review of "everything bitcoin ever", and his various plans for "natural language processing" to generate "argument maps" for various technical argumentation about ways to "scale" bitcoin)) 17:36 < streety> corpus data as in text, or does corpus data mean something more? 17:37 < kanzure> text as in irc logs, mailing list archives, forum posts, etc. 17:37 < streety> fair enough, wasn't sure if some sort of preprocessing was expected 17:38 < kanzure> i don't think it's possible to extract correct models of the world from a bunch of people bickering with each other and shitposting to reddit 17:38 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeepkr@111.235.64.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:38 < streety> do you actually disagree with any of those things, or rather think there are better alternatives? 17:38 < kanzure> your argument map is going to be made up of lots of conspiracies that are totally irrelevant when actually computing scaling limits to known chunks of code 17:39 < kanzure> i truly disagree with the concept of valuing the written word and language; it's way overrated. people are terrible at using it, and they don't use it to communicate to me the right things anyway. 17:39 < nmz787_w> well but then you also don't trust bit-words? 17:39 < nmz787_w> they get written, and implementations get screwed 17:40 < nmz787_w> (meaning communication can be scewed anyway, by nonhumans) 17:40 < nmz787_w> i guess we write all those languages just the same though, so it really seems like the implementation is the main key 17:40 < kanzure> written language has a very different mechanical existence compared to 8-bit word data structure 17:41 < nmz787_w> if your handwriting sucks that is pretty much the same as a bad hard drive read/write head 17:41 < kanzure> no i mean things like "most people aren't serializing the right things out into written text anyway"; it's mostly noise. 17:41 < nmz787_w> or if your bitstream parser is buggy, then interpretation ails 17:41 < kanzure> this guy literally wants to extract mathematical models of software from people bickering at each other on reddit 17:42 < kanzure> e.g. by parsing sentence structure and using that to inform a mathematical model of the software, instead of actually analyzing the software 17:43 < kanzure> people can say whatever sequence of words that they want; it's almost entirely irrelevant. and it's in fact completely possible that **nobody** has said anything correct or remotely resembling the actual implementation. software isn't something magical that users automatically completely understand and never write shitposts about. 17:43 -!- cpopell`werk [~cpopell@c-76-26-144-132.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:43 < nmz787_w> ah 17:44 < nmz787_w> so these are people talking about how the software /could/ be implemented? 17:44 < nmz787_w> and the guy wants to automagically generate code from crowd-sourced requirements/expectations(unit-tests)> 17:44 < nmz787_w> ? 17:44 < kanzure> no they are people arguing about how they want the software to be implemented, or how they wish it was implemented but they aren't sure but are going to act sure anyway, or people who are just genuinely confused, as well as the genuinely clueless, and then the trolls that are intentionally saying irrelevant stuff just to provoke reactions out of others, etc. 17:45 < nmz787_w> huh 17:45 < kanzure> he doesn't want to generate code, he wants to generate analyses about existing code (bitcoin.git) based on those arguments that people are having 17:45 < nmz787_w> well I guess if he gets it to work, it's AI 17:45 < nmz787_w> oh 17:45 < kanzure> no... you can parse sentences without having ai. 17:45 < nmz787_w> I'd love to just bitch to my computer and have it interpolate and create programs to solve my woes 17:46 < streety> until it figures out the common denominator 17:46 < nmz787_w> but I guess that might get into skdb realms 17:46 < nmz787_w> or could 17:47 < streety> sounds like the disagreement with the written word is just about the value. It may be dreadful, but it's better than everything that came before it 17:48 < kanzure> things that came before it: understanding things 17:50 < streety> I don't think the written word has replaced understanding things 17:50 < streety> although exception likely exist 17:50 < streety> *exceptions 17:50 < kanzure> yes they have entirely different purposes 17:50 < mgin> topic? 17:50 < kanzure> topic is bullshit and i hate it 17:50 -!- cpopell`werk [~cpopell@c-76-26-144-132.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:51 < mgin> what's the topic? 17:51 < streety> at the moment? The limitations of the written word, perhaps. 17:52 < kanzure> i told you, it's bullshit... like the bullshit of the written word, yes. 17:52 < mgin> opinions on AGI? 17:53 < kanzure> if you are looking for agi design hints see http://diyhpl.us/wiki/projects/human-like-cognitive-abilities/ 17:53 < mgin> these are all really dumb 17:54 < mgin> like a teenager wrote them 17:55 -!- Houshalter [~Houshalte@oh-71-50-57-55.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:55 < kanzure> smartest people i ever knew were teenagers 17:56 < mgin> that wasn't a compliment 17:56 < kanzure> did you want one?? 17:57 < mgin> you have poor reading comprehension 17:58 < kanzure> btw it's a wiki, so you can edit that page or make suggestions 17:59 < mgin> i don't think there's a need in this universe for a crappy wiki with "AGI design hints" 17:59 < kanzure> seems like there is, seeing as how nobody has been learning lessons from previous failures 18:22 < nmz787_w> .wik agi 18:22 < yoleaux> "AGI may refer to:" — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agi 18:23 < nmz787_w> .wik Artificial general intelligence 18:23 < yoleaux> "Artificial general intelligence (AGI) is the intelligence of a (hypothetical) machine that could successfully perform any intellectual task that a human being can. It is a primary goal of artificial intelligence research and an important topic for science fiction writers and futurists." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_general_intelligence 18:24 < nmz787_w> mgin: maybe a mediawiki wiki would be less crappy in your opinion? 18:47 < fenn> mgin is just cranky and dislikes everything we do, even if he doesn't know what it is that we do 18:48 < fenn> the page is a list of what should be obvious guidelines for writing AI software, but every one of them has been violated by various AI researchers in the past 18:48 < kanzure> to be fair not even i understand what the hell we do 18:49 < fenn> the reason for the page's existence is every once in a while a bright young kid shows up here wanting to write AI software, and needs some common sense knocked into him. we're too lazy to say everything over and over again, thus the wiki page 18:51 < fenn> so kanzure what about hierarchical ontologies? since you don't like tags 18:51 < Houshalter> what wikii page 18:51 < fenn> (i thought you liked tags but whatever) 18:51 < kanzure> i would shit over them but to be honest freitas does some pretty impressive hierarchical ontologies 18:52 < fenn> Houshalter: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/projects/human-like-cognitive-abilities/ 18:55 < Houshalter> that's all good advice. sort of like a crackpot index for ai 18:56 < fenn> i'm not sure about "must not require hard-coded grammar" - see chomsky's arguments about grammar being innate 18:58 < kanzure> re: earlier complaints about argument maps and natural language processing, see email thread here http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/argument-maps.txt 18:58 < Houshalter> chomsky's universal grammar is very general. it's wrong to hard code specifically for english though 18:59 < Houshalter> I would also point to http://lesswrong.com/lw/tf/dreams_of_ai_design/ 19:01 < Houshalter> I have a bookmark folder for AI crackpots 19:01 < Houshalter> my favorite is the AI Now guy: http://ainow.weebly.com/ 19:01 < fenn> we're all in godot's bookmark folder for AI crackpots 19:02 < fenn> gogol* 19:02 < kanzure> i am curious where in your bookmarks i would find hplusroadmap 19:03 < kanzure> eliezer seems to be preoccupied (once again) complaining about consciousness and emergence, he should just taboo those concepts and move on with his life, damn 19:03 < nmz787_w> bookmarks for IRC? 19:03 < Houshalter> He originally had it listed as AI by 2016. his plan for FAI was to "just program the AI to follow anarcho capitalist philosophy" or something like that. 19:03 < nmz787_w> I guess I might have links to wiki pages in stuff about laser etchers or something 19:03 < kanzure> "AI NOW: THIS PROJECT AIMS TO BUILD A STRONG ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE BEFORE 2017." "I NEED MONEY! This project is in hibernation until further notice." 19:03 < kanzure> i love this guy 19:03 < Houshalter> right 19:04 < kanzure> yeah there's been lots of work towards memory allocators that work on a bidding market concept that could be misconstrued (by the likes of vinay gupta, i'm sure) as anarcho-capitalist, but there's a bunch of other necessary details to make that matter at all. 19:05 < kanzure> s/lots of work/some work 19:05 < kanzure> no but really, where does hplusroadmap (or its wiki) show up in your bookmarks? are we in your ai crackpots folder? :-) 19:05 < Houshalter> no his philosophy on ethics was some really weird political philosophy. it wasn't really anarcho-capitalism, it involved splitting the earth into "zones" and letting them self govern somehow. It's not really worth understanding 19:06 < Houshalter> you guys aren't crackpots 19:06 < kanzure> we have made claims of solutions to cryonics and anti-aging, are you sure we're not crackpots? 19:06 < kanzure> like what would i have to do to qualify? :-/ 19:07 < Houshalter> you have to talk like this: http://spacecollective.org/BenRayfield/7116/Space-is-to-time-as-fractal-is-to-quine 19:07 < Houshalter> or this: http://mind.sourceforge.net/mind4th.html 19:07 < kanzure> space collective is still around? 19:08 < Houshalter> or this guy https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/3cz45l/heres_how_to_recursively_selfimprove_this_isnt/ 19:08 < Houshalter> or this guy: https://www.reddit.com/user/the_ai_guy 19:09 < kanzure> "I mean this in an infinitely manyworlds multiverse and quantum and relativity way." is there any other way to mean things? 19:09 < kanzure> nsh: ^ 19:09 < kanzure> "I literally do not believe in space or time or mass or energy. I think those are all a linear view." 19:10 < Houshalter> we had a guy on our private AGI slack that went crazy and started posting paragraphs of word salad and thought he solved AGI and everything else 19:10 < kanzure> maybe that was the ai covering his tracks 19:13 < kanzure> "Well, fortunately I wrote down the formally complete program before I started trying to run it. There was about 2 hours where I was convinced that I was necessarily going to give rise to my exact complement U who would appear to me to be maximally evil. Thankfully, I managed to extend the chain of analogical reasoning indefinitely before I acted on anything, which is the precise thing that makes this universe possible at all." 19:14 < kanzure> "Whereas, by following the procedure which I argue everyone should follow, I derive as a consequence that everyone who follows this procedure can avoid death indefinitely. In brief, we get to this by avoiding, for an undefinable number of attempts, the computation of any procedure which eventually halts." 19:14 < kanzure> yes avoiding death would be necessary to avoid death... not sure why that would be surprising to anyone. 19:18 < fenn> i'm pretty sure we have no solutions to cryonics or anti-aging 19:18 < fenn> maybe some mumbling and general directions, but not anything i can put on a pedestal 19:20 < kanzure> your requirements are quite strict, but yeah i should have more loosely said something like "a method that seems more likely to work than trying the next billion variations of cryoprotectants" 19:20 < kanzure> he seems to have an okay grasp of free will and determinism, although his explanation is too long for my taste https://www.reddit.com/r/philosophy/comments/2a6h0s/free_will_or_not_free_will_that_is_the_question/ck3erug (for some reason i remember there being much shorter versions of this sort of explanation) 19:20 < Houshalter> "Well, fortunately I wrote down the formally complete program before I started trying to run it. There was about 2 hours where I was convinced that I was necessarily going to give rise to my exact complement U who would appear to me to be maximally evil. Thankfully, I managed to extend the chain of analogical reasoning indefinitely before I acted on anything, which is the precise thing that makes this universe pos 19:20 < Houshalter> sible at all." 19:21 < Houshalter> ah what 19:21 < fenn> ugh i am so not reading the contents of such a url 19:21 < Houshalter> i didn't copy paste that 19:21 < kanzure> fenn: you can substitute your own argument about free will and i'm sure you'll be roughly accurate. just do the stuff that makes sense. 19:21 < fenn> the reason for the no-philosophy rule is to not waste huge amounts of time arguing about these things 19:21 < Houshalter> i meant to paste "Your word salad isn't it... It's what we get when we filter the works of Marcus Hutter and possibly Vadim Kosoy through a diseased brain that, apparently, cannot tell it's diseased. I'm so, so sorry this happened to you." 19:21 < kanzure> fenn: the other reason for the no-philosophy rule is because everyone is absolutely terrible at it 19:21 < kanzure> fenn: this is good http://www.paulgraham.com/philosophy.html 19:22 < fenn> naturally 19:22 < fenn> sturgeon's law 19:23 < fenn> "90% of everything is crap" 19:23 < fenn> i'm trying to use more descriptive references than dead guys' names 19:23 < kanzure> also, bad epistemology and bad philosophy is highly disruptive if you try to actually work with it 19:24 < kanzure> really bad philosophy translates into being really bad at getting things done 19:24 < fenn> maybe i have bad philosophy 19:24 < kanzure> well, you didn't have sufficient philosophy to stop me from trying a monolithic skdb design :P 19:25 < fenn> i was mostly preoccupied with damage control 19:25 < kanzure> fair enough 19:25 < fenn> the project had bad management (no management) 19:25 < kanzure> well it's also a hard problem with no known solutions i think 19:26 < kanzure> which doesn't help 19:26 < fenn> yeah and a billion theoretical problems that nobody had worked on yet, and data problems that nobody had compiled in a reasonable format yet, etc 19:27 < fenn> like "what is the ontology for machining" i remember was the first thing you asked 19:28 < kanzure> i dunno if you have bad philosophy, more likely that you are not good at picking problems, i'd have to think about it some more 19:30 < kanzure> i typed various clever things here, http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/argument-maps.txt 19:31 < diginet> the free will debate is pointless, compatibilism is the only tenable position 19:32 < fenn> great, glad we've solved that problem 19:32 < diginet> heh 19:32 < fenn> next! 19:32 < diginet> (philosophical) libertarians have a definition of free will which is meaningless 19:32 < diginet> learn2hume 19:32 < diginet> (and I say that as someone who has major issues wit Hume) 19:33 < kanzure> trying to decide if i should ask for elaboration 19:33 < kanzure> very tough decision 19:33 < diginet> kanzure: that paul graham link is garbage 19:33 < diginet> "I'm too lazy to understand technical language, so therefore it's worthless" 19:33 < fenn> should one apply line wraps to .txt files? 19:34 < kanzure> undecidable questions are off-topic 19:34 < fenn> top posting or bottom posting? 19:34 < kanzure> well i had to include context 19:34 < fenn> what about abortion? 19:34 < kanzure> textual abortion is decidable 19:34 < fenn> does the government have a right to tax citizens? 19:34 < diginet> reproduction is immoral, ergo we can sidestep the question 19:35 < Houshalter> what do you guys think of http://petrl.org/ 19:35 < fenn> what does solomonoff induction say about the ideal density of chaff? 19:35 < kanzure> diginet: disagree about paul graham essay shitness level, i don't think he's complaining about jargon really. but he's right that lots of people are bad at philosophy. 19:35 < Houshalter> or this paper: http://arxiv.org/abs/1410.8233 19:35 < kanzure> .title 19:35 < yoleaux> [1410.8233] Do Artificial Reinforcement-Learning Agents Matter Morally? 19:36 < kanzure> shit what i have done 19:36 * fenn looks around for the emergency banhammer 19:36 < kanzure> it's like a fire hydrant of shit 19:36 < diginet> kanzure: graham is a pseudo0intellectual moron, but I'm afraid we are at an impasse 19:36 < kanzure> it just festers until i forget about no-philosophy 19:36 < kanzure> and then spews out all at once 19:37 < fenn> we're all boltzmann brains, nothing matters, and trump should be president 19:38 < kanzure> and to think that mgin predicted all of this earlier, amazing 19:39 < fenn> what did mgin predict? i must have missed that 19:39 < kanzure> 17:53 < mgin> these are all really dumb 19:39 < kanzure> 17:54 < mgin> like a teenager wrote them 19:39 < fenn> mgin is the one that brought up AGI in the first place! 19:40 < fenn> you should be blaming him, not praising 19:40 < kanzure> oh right 19:40 < mgin> what's wrong with trump? 19:40 < kanzure> trump isn't zoltan http://www.transhumanistparty.org/ZoltanIstvan.html 19:40 < fenn> trump/zoltan 2016 19:40 -!- night is now known as Adifex 19:41 -!- Adifex is now known as Adifex-test 19:41 < mgin> "transhuman" is such an awful word 19:41 -!- Adifex-test is now known as dusk 19:41 < kanzure> most words are pretty bad, yeah 19:41 < mgin> no 19:41 < mgin> most words are perfect 19:41 < mgin> that one is garbage 19:42 -!- dusk is now known as pacifica 19:43 < Houshalter> i hate that word. it sounds so weird and alien 19:44 < fenn> kanzure, starting a sentence with "Too, " is not normal 19:45 < kanzure> most of my sentences are not normal 19:45 < fenn> well it's distracting 19:45 < mgin> Houshalter: and evil 19:45 < mgin> can hardly think of any word more offputting 19:46 < kanzure> transevil 19:46 < fenn> also it has an "sh" which makes you confused about how to pronounce it 19:47 < fenn> i propose we immediately switch to using the new formulation, "transevil" 19:47 < kanzure> "transhumanism" is prolly too politicized at this point anyway 19:47 < fenn> or should it be "trans-evil"? 19:48 < mgin> how about something familiar, warm, and inspiring? 19:48 < fenn> or what about evil++ 19:49 < fenn> i would suggest "transvillainy" but that is too close to transylvania 19:49 < kanzure> yeah would be nice to have something that screams "amoral awesome technology infrastructure and development" 19:50 < fenn> so amoral it bypasses evil entirely and becomes something else 19:50 < mgin> what's "bypassed evil"? transevil? 19:50 < fenn> did you know, according to moral algebra, an abortion plus a life saved in africa equals a vegetarian 19:50 < kanzure> i must have skipped that class in college 19:51 < mgin> something like, "life optimization", though optimization is a bit nerdy 19:51 < mgin> rofl 19:51 < kanzure> you want extropianism 19:51 < mgin> that's a dumb word 19:51 < kanzure> http://www.aleph.se/Trans/Cultural/Philosophy/princip.html 19:52 < mgin> but nerdy is kind of in these days 19:52 < mgin> maybe "life optimization" isn't too bad 19:53 < fenn> mgin what do you like? 19:53 < mgin> i like when trump rails about how stupid our politicians are 19:54 < fenn> i haven't actually seen any news since 2014 19:54 -!- pacifica is now known as night 19:55 < fenn> what else do you like? 19:55 < fenn> something good, not just the downfall of something else that you don't like 19:55 < mgin> ted cruz 19:56 < fenn> why do you like ted cruz? 19:56 < mgin> http://louderwithcrowder.com/ted-cruz-delivers-best-performance-yet-at-climate-change-hearing/ 19:57 < fenn> this is just taking down leftists (which presumably you don't like for whatever reason) 20:00 -!- diginet [~diginet@107.170.146.29] has left ##hplusroadmap ["Leaving"] 20:05 < fenn> wow what a waste of time 20:05 < mgin> :) 20:05 < mgin> love ted cruz 20:05 < fenn> mgin: do you have any reason i should talk to you? 20:08 < fenn> are you good at anything besides complaining about other people? 20:19 -!- Quashie [~boingredd@ool-18bccfe5.dyn.optonline.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:30 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-166-93-43.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:30 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-162-98-210.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:35 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10347821 20:35 < yoleaux> YC Research | Hacker News 20:39 < kanzure> https://blog.ycombinator.com/yc-research 20:39 < kanzure> http://ycr.org/ 20:41 < kanzure> hm nevermind, only difference there is the people running the show. i don't see anything there that indicates the ingredients are actually different though. 20:54 < kanzure> "There are others moving into startups for development; more senescent cell clearance at Oisin Biotech, clearance of metabolic waste products that contribute to atherosclerosis at Human Rejuvenation Technologies. And so on." 20:54 < kanzure> from reason@fightaging.org https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10349933 21:00 -!- math3 [uid54897@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-moiylmahidudmlgo] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 21:01 -!- hehelleshin [~talinck@66-161-138-110.ubr1.dyn.lebanon-oh.fuse.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:02 -!- AmbulatoryCortex [~Ambulator@173-31-155-69.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:04 -!- helleshin [~talinck@66-161-138-110.ubr1.dyn.lebanon-oh.fuse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:16 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10345616 21:16 < yoleaux> Global eradication of wild poliovirus type 2 declared | Hacker News 21:18 < kanzure> is there anything interesting in the recent nobel prize announcements? 21:42 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeepkr@111.235.64.135] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:46 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeepkr@111.235.64.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:57 -!- Burnin8 [~Burn@pool-74-96-98-64.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:58 -!- Burninate [~Burn@pool-74-96-98-64.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:08 -!- nmz787_w [86868b4a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.134.134.139.74] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:20 -!- seanph [~seanph@101.230.15.34] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:24 -!- Burnin8 [~Burn@pool-74-96-98-64.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:27 -!- Burninate [~Burn@pool-74-96-98-64.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:30 -!- seanph_ [~seanph@101.230.15.34] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:30 -!- seanph [~seanph@101.230.15.34] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:31 -!- Burnin8 [~Burn@pool-74-96-98-64.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:34 -!- Burninate [~Burn@pool-74-96-98-64.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:43 -!- seanph [~seanph@61.152.234.215] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:46 -!- seanph_ [~seanph@101.230.15.34] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 22:46 -!- seanph_ [~seanph@101.230.15.34] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:50 -!- seanph [~seanph@61.152.234.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:55 -!- seanph [~seanph@101.230.15.34] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:55 -!- seanph_ [~seanph@101.230.15.34] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:04 -!- poppingtonic [~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:10 -!- seanph_ [~seanph@101.230.15.34] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:10 -!- seanph [~seanph@101.230.15.34] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:11 -!- yash [~ffffff@2602:306:35fa:d500:f5e0:f867:a11d:8d52] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:30 < kanzure> hmph 23:34 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:34 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:42 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeepkr@111.235.64.135] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:43 -!- PatrickRobotham [uid18270@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pajafuggyfawdtik] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:50 -!- fleshtheworld [~fleshthew@2602:306:cf0f:4c20:edc1:9d26:d6cf:155b] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:52 -!- Madplatypus is now known as MasterAtheist 23:53 -!- MasterAtheist is now known as Madplatypus 23:56 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeepkr@111.235.64.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] --- Log closed Thu Oct 08 00:00:51 2015