--- Log opened Wed Nov 11 00:00:22 2015
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05:10 < kanzure> hmph
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05:40 < kanzure> if you were to select for mice that sleep less, then you would also at the same time have to select for mice that display more signs or stronger signals of stress, because otherwise you might be selecting for "low sleep & high stress & low stress visibility".
05:43 < archels> can't we just quantify actual stress levels by measuring cortisol or so
05:44 < kanzure> yes, but then you might be selecting for mice that just fool you with meaningless cortisol levels :-)
05:45 < kanzure> a combination of multiple reporters is harder to randomly mutate into being unreliable, so cortisol plus three or four other things might work...
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05:51 < archels> this is getting too close to some sort of ill disguised dualism for me
05:52 < archels> if actual stress is actually there, we can measure it
05:52 < archels> it's probably not all that difficult
05:53 < kanzure> goodhart's law "When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure"
05:53 < kanzure> well, that's too extreme for biology
05:54 < archels> how about, if when you make a measure a target and find it ceases to be a good measure, you chose the wrong measure to begin with
05:54 < archels> damn, I appear to be in a more cynical mood than I realised. sorry about that
05:54 < kanzure> you don't seem cynical
05:54 < kanzure> so if cortisol levels go down, and stress is still high, then cortisol was never the right measurement?
05:55 < archels> yeah
05:55 < kanzure> but you agree that cortisol is presently a good measure? :-)
05:55 < archels> mind you I don't know much about the stress response, just covered some HPA axis stuff some years ago in biology class
05:55 < archels> no, not necessarily
05:56 < archels> if we can anticipate that there can be stress without cortisol reponse, then it is clearly not a good measure even now
05:56 < kanzure> well, remember the context is selective breeding; so yes i can theorize mutations that lower cortisol response without lowering total stress.
05:57 < archels> .wik HPA axis
05:57 < yoleaux> "The hypothalamic–pituitary–adrenal axis (HPA or HTPA axis), also known as the limbic–hypothalamic–pituitary–adrenal axis (LHPA axis) and, occasionally, as the hypothalamic–pituitary–adrenal–gonadotropic axis, is a complex set of direct influences and feedback interactions among three endocrine glands: the hypothalamus, the pituitary gland  …" — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HPA_axis
05:58 < kanzure> one good argument for "that wont happen" is something like... "cortisol is too integral to overall organism function, and it will remain a good signal of stress for quite a while because otherwise would require tremendous selective pressure beyond whatever actual selective pressure you are going to be using" ?
05:58 < kanzure> oh, cleaner way to say that argument: "cortisol wont be low with high stress, or if that does happen then the organism will die because stress kills it anyway"
06:00 < archels> well, compensatory mechanisms are myriad in biology... but glucocorticoid receptors are apparently found in most cells all over the body
06:00 < archels> it's probably best to define stress on the basis of a number of stages in the response pathway, e.g. extracellular glucocorticoids as well as intracellular reponse
06:00 < archels> maybe even epigenetic consequences
06:01 < kanzure> instead of low cortisol levels perhaps easier to just select for same cortisol levels and other stress measurements.
06:02 < archels> how about we just add longevity to the equation :)
06:02 < kanzure> because i don't have time to wait for them to age?
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06:02 < kanzure> long-term, sure, we should be doing longevity projects like that
06:03 < archels> haha, fair enough
06:06 < kanzure> before i forget, something something prevent umbilical cord death
06:06 < archels> yeah I'm with you on that one
06:06 < archels> "Neural circuits are fundamental for brain functions."
06:06 < archels> I just love it when a paper starts out like that.
06:07 < kanzure> yes that sorta stuff screams "I HAVE NO IDEA HOW TO JUSTIFY MY WORK"
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06:11 < kanzure> had idea that was something like an alternative to waiting around for long-lived aging mice. something about selecting for cell renewal rates. but that's not sufficient for longevity (because there's a good chance that extracellular matrix junk is an important component of aging).
06:11 < kanzure> cell renewal rate selection method would have been based on radiolabeling or something
06:11 < archels> renewal rate might even be anticorrelated with longevity
06:12 < kanzure> not convinced... even basic movement kills off lots of cells.
06:13 < kanzure> well, perhaps not lots. but way more than 1 or 10.
06:14 < kanzure> er well anyway i wrote down the umbilical cord thing because i wanted to not forget the other idea, but my strategy failed heh
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06:22 < kanzure> should take continuous (small) stream of cord blood during pregnancy. seems like a good thing to take.
06:26 < kanzure> haha prolapse. yeah that would make that easier.
06:26 < kanzure> perfect
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06:40 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10542611
06:40 < yoleaux> The impact of Docker containers on the performance of genomic pipelines | Hacker News
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06:47 < kanzure> seems that the tides have changed and people agree now that grindhouse wetware should really learn about wireless charging https://www.reddit.com/r/transhumanism/comments/3sbd7c/the_latest_trend_among_biohackers_is_implanting/
06:47 < kanzure> didn't we tell them how to do that, like a few years ago?
06:47 < kanzure> what's the point of talking to people if they just ignore the important stuff
06:48 < c0rw1n> that's just how ideas spread ...
06:49 < kanzure> by ignoring them?
06:49 < c0rw1n> for each idea, there is a first time that it's communicated
06:50 < kanzure> i did *not* create the concept of wireless power transmission for implants
06:50 < kanzure> other people have been doing that for decades
06:51 < c0rw1n> ok
06:52 < c0rw1n> ( not sure how to continue discussing this without getting into long tangents and idk much about the history of the spread of that specific idea )
06:53 < kanzure> well i would imagine you would continue by going back to your original point (which i asked about already)
06:55 < kanzure> some anarchism comments https://www.reddit.com/r/transhumanism/comments/3qror2/the_incoherence_and_unsurvivability_of/cwivqqc
06:55 < kanzure> "What does a world look like in which we *have the capacity* to stop people from printing AR-15s? Forget the fuzzy-wuzzy associations of “democracy”, even “direct democracy”. Ask yourself what actually needs to be done to control gene therapy? Single facilities of government overseen use of high technologies? Massive backdoors in everyone’s devices that aggressively monitor and limit use? Totalitarian control of every ...
06:56 < kanzure> ... communication on the planet? Aggressive raids against all hackers and tinkerers? Systematic accounting of every fabrication machinery in existence? Constant surveillance of anyone with knowledge of how these things work? Complete control of all resource allocation on the planet?"
06:56 < kanzure> don't give them any ideas
06:57 < kanzure> "You do not need to wonder how people would resolve conflicts if every super-empowered individual was carrying the equivalent of a nuclear veto in their pocket. We’ve been testing and developing social forms, advanced game theoretic strategies that treat people that way for ethical reasons alone."
06:58 < kanzure> i guess this means i need to escalate by upgrading my "strong agree" phrase to a "nuclear agree" phrase now.
06:58  * c0rw1n hugs kanzure very much
06:59 < kanzure> hmm he is in oakland
06:59 < kanzure> c0rw1n: hm?
06:59 < c0rw1n> global anarchy in a world with zero fixed intstitutions that coordinates in temporary, overlapping swarms clustering around shared values, is my personal utopia scheme
07:00 < kanzure> that's oddly specific!
07:01 < kanzure> for contrast, i prefer system where anyone can get up and leave and take most of modern civilization with him (technology trees and howto and apt-get for hardware). perhaps seasteading but eventually space habitats. let people try their own wacky political experiments on their own turf, instead of the current gridlocked landlocked political fiasco we have now.
07:01 < c0rw1n> that includes personal AIs for everyone to serve as exocortices that woud parse the panoptic surveillance thing into AR usable as a mapping of a dunbar's number of "everyone"
07:02 < c0rw1n> my thing is "personal archipelago"
07:02 < Aurelius_Work2> ability to parse everyone is not the same thing as ability to care about everyone
07:02 < kanzure> "zero fixed institutions" so unfixed institutions are ok? or what. what makes something fixed or unfixed.
07:03 < kanzure> maybe i didn't mean specific. hm.
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07:05 < c0rw1n> (  this is why i need to post a mind map of all the bits in that idea on a blog. grmbl )
07:07 < JayDugger> How long does a institution persist before you'd call it "fixed?"
07:08 < c0rw1n> JayDugger: jufst right at the point it's trying to survive instead of gettting its thing done
07:08 < c0rw1n> or in addition to
07:09 < JayDugger> That doesn't seem like a workable definition to me.
07:09 < c0rw1n> yeah :(
07:10 < c0rw1n> ah, right. it's "no person who is not an individual" - no moral person, no centralized authority defining them, it's individual-to-individual relationship graphs all the way down
07:10 < JayDugger> We have no permanent institutions now, but I don't think you would accept the current state of the world.
07:11 < c0rw1n> we havfe collective solipsism enforced by violence
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07:13 < JayDugger> I am already on record for wanting my own nuclear-pulse rockets, so that should pretty clearly reveal my preferences for dispersed and well-armed super-empowered individuals.
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07:13 < c0rw1n> i have no problem with that, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else
07:14 < JayDugger> Fair enough. Having a big stick doesn't make it safe to swing.
07:14 < c0rw1n> reedspacer's lower bound seems to me a good milestone , and no volcano lair filled with catgirls would be complete without a nuke thing
07:14 < JayDugger> Anyway...back to the (sadly non-atomic) housework.
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09:58 < kanzure> hrm
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10:38 < kanzure> "[...] acceleration, gravity.  It is possible for an object both to respond to gravity and to generate a field that influences others; to experience gravity and to cause others to experience it.  Presumably this means it possible both to experience acceleration and cause others to accelerate. (Yes?) The atoms making me up have been responding to gravity (and influencing other atoms gravitionally) for thirteen billion years.  This means ...
10:38 < kanzure> ... they have been accelerating for thirteen billion years. (Yes.) Wow.  Is it reasonable to observe that they must have reached quite an impressive "absolute" velocity by now?"
10:39 < kanzure> https://experiment.com/projects/how-does-a-parasite-create-zombie-like-behavior/results
10:39 < kanzure> "I became fascinated by fungi when I was a student, and so I decided to do a PhD in fungal genetics. By the end of my PhD I learned through watching BBC’s Planet Earth that certain fungi are able to manipulate insect behavior followed by the growth of beautiful fruiting bodies, leaving behind a rather morbid piece of natural art. The concept of a microbe being able to manipulate an animal’s brain just blew my mind. Ever since, I’ve ...
10:40 < kanzure> ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10544656 )
10:40 < kanzure> ... been working to make the “zombie ants” a model system to study the concept of parasitic behavioral manipulation in detail."
10:40 < kanzure> "Leucochloridium paradoxum infects snails, making their eyes look like caterpillars, catching birds attention and thus spreading through them."
10:41 < kanzure> http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2015/11/a-small-research-question.html
10:41 < kanzure> huh almost none of those antipope comments are useful
10:42 < kanzure> oh i guess they mention scp/scp-wiki so that's nice of them.
10:42 < kanzure> .title http://vetscan.co.in/v4n2/exploiting_nutrition_parasite_interaction_for_sustainable_control_of_gastrointestinal_nematodosis_in_sheep.htm
10:42 < yoleaux> Exploiting nutrition-parasite interaction for sustainable control of gastrointestinal nematodosis in sheep | Vetscan
10:43 < kanzure> "Tapeworm eggs in a 270 million year old shark coprolite" http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0055007
10:44 < kanzure> "Pathogens and politics: Further evidence that parasite prevalence predicts authoritarianism" http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0062275
10:45 < kanzure> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cymothoa_exigua "Cymothoa exigua extracts blood through the claws on its front, causing the tongue to atrophy from lack of blood. The parasite then replaces the fish's tongue by attaching its own body to the muscles of the tongue stub. The fish is able to use the parasite just like a normal tongue."
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11:03 < kanzure> "i would like to introduce my new political platform, i call it tcp++"
11:06 < cluckj> parasites are cool
11:06 < kanzure> says the guy with a brain slug
11:11 < kanzure> what was the name of that fish muscle parasite that improved flapping performance?
11:11 < cluckj> I don't have a brain slug I just think that we should send lots of money to the brain slug planet
11:11 < cluckj> they need it more than we do
11:12 < kanzure> was either fish or bird. something about flapping or swimming. definitely muscle performance.
11:16 < Aurelius_Work2> http://imgur.com/gallery/kr7yj9q (thanks to Carl)
11:18 < kanzure> pretty sure i saw that casting mold in tony hawk pro skater 1
11:22 < cluckj> I don't know which parasite that is
11:23 < kanzure> was mentioned in hplusroadmap by me at some point... lost to the infinite depths of the logs, i guess.
11:23 < kanzure> your second phd thesis should be "i'm gonna read all the hplusroadmap logs"
11:24 < cluckj> hah
11:24 < cluckj> no fuckin way am I doing this again
11:25 < cluckj> some time in the future I'll probably have to do a social history of parasites and parasitology
11:27 < kanzure> because your brain slug commands you to?
11:28 < cluckj> I told you already, I don't have a brain slug, I just think that we need to understand brain slugs better so that we can coexist with them
11:28 < cluckj> maybe we can all take a trip to the brain slug planet to learn more about them
11:30 < Aurelius_Work2> cluckj : I barely dealt with my master's thesis
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11:33 < cluckj> I had exams for my MS
11:33 < cluckj> 40 pages of writing in a week
11:34 < kanzure> that's only like 20 minutes of typing
11:34 < kanzure> i do more than that in my sleep
11:35 < kanzure> literally, too: i started to keep a log of what i type in my sleep....
11:35 < cluckj> I wish it were just about wpm
11:35 < kanzure> :-)
11:36 < kanzure> although judging by the quality of other theses, maybe it is wpm
11:37 < cluckj> yes
11:37 < kanzure> Aurelius_Work2: i hope you're happy about getting this song stuck in my head https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeNKhm09Q88
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11:38 < Aurelius_Work2> .title
11:38 < yoleaux> Tony Hawk's Pro Skater - Superman by Goldfinger - YouTube
11:38 < Aurelius_Work2> heh
11:41 < Pompolic> Blitzkrieg Bop was in 3
11:41 < Pompolic> now it's in MY head
11:43 < Aurelius_Work2> I play Blitzkrieg Bop in rocksmith
11:46 < heath> http://openag.media.mit.edu/build/
11:46 < heath> .title
11:46 < yoleaux> Build
11:46 < heath> ~"build an OpenAG Food Computer?"
11:46 < heath> http://openag.media.mit.edu/hardware/
11:46 < heath> .title
11:46 < yoleaux> Food Computers
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12:45 < archels> darn it why do spherical coordinates have to be so awful
12:46 < kanzure> all locations are equally miserable, coordinate systems are useless
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12:47 < archels> dunno, flatland has a lot going for it
12:51 < chris_99> hey, don't suppose anyone's ever seen a dirt cheap digital refractometer per chance (brix)? around 50 quid ideally.  the cheapest i've found so far is MA871 which is more expensive here alas (£100)
12:52 < kanzure> would you like me to buy you a refractometer
12:52 < kanzure> i can't tell if you are asking
12:54 < chris_99> heh, just wondering if theres any cheapo chinese equivalents
12:56 < chris_99> as looking on aliexpress they all seem more expensive still, which is odd
13:09 < Aurelius_Work2> kanzure : are there any wearables that aren't worthless
13:12 < kanzure> glasses
13:12 < kanzure> contact lenses
13:12 < kanzure> accelerometers, pedometers, headsets
13:16 < kanzure> wearable keyboards are also useful
13:16 < kanzure> jetpacks
13:25 < Aurelius_Work2> oh, what wearable keyboards would you recommend?
13:25 < kanzure> twizler? not sure.
13:26 < Aurelius_Work2> hmmm, to play fallout 4 tonight or not
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13:43 < kanzure> "An informal history of liquid rocket propellants (1972)" http://library.sciencemadness.org/library/books/ignition.pdf
13:44 < kanzure> Aurelius_Work2: i haven't tried the twistedthing chorded keyboard. but was hand-glove-like. not really a glove. there should be one that is like a glove, but i don't think anyone has done this yet..
13:44 < kanzure> oops i mean twiddler
13:44 < kanzure> wow that's the wrong shape http://twiddler.tekgear.com/
13:45 < kanzure> dis one http://www.chordite.com/new_design.html
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13:48 < kanzure> http://hackaday.com/2009/07/25/custom-flex-sensors/
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14:15 < kanzure> http://i.imgur.com/i5EkUf6.gifv
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15:20 < kanzure> is there anything like a "social quotient" that seems to predict life-outcomes of the sort that iq testing claims to predict?
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15:29 < kanzure> evaporative cooling stuff http://toom.im/faq.html#cooling
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21:09 < ParahSailin> gdf11 eh
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21:12 < ParahSailin> where are you guys getting your gdf 11
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21:26 < kanzure> from dead babies
21:26 < kanzure> you should email that dude that was self-experimenting with gdf11
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23:45 < kanzure> Emmel: greets
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--- Log closed Thu Nov 12 00:00:01 2015