--- Log opened Mon Nov 16 00:00:26 2015
00:03 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap
00:03 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
00:11 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeepkr@111.235.64.4] has joined ##hplusroadmap
00:23 -!- jenelizabeth [~jenelizab@cpc76802-brmb10-2-0-cust399.1-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
00:34 -!- poppingtonic [~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
00:36 -!- poppingtonic [~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined ##hplusroadmap
00:40 -!- jtimon [~quassel@74.29.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined ##hplusroadmap
01:06 -!- poppingtonic1 [~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined ##hplusroadmap
01:08 -!- poppingtonic [~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
01:08 -!- poppingtonic1 is now known as poppingtonic
01:13 -!- fleshtheworld- [~fleshthew@2602:306:cf0f:4c20:b5af:b480:c8ad:4444] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
01:36 -!- Hercules [Hercules@unaffiliated/genkei] has joined ##hplusroadmap
01:36 -!- poppingtonic1 [~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined ##hplusroadmap
01:38 -!- poppingtonic [~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
01:38 -!- poppingtonic1 is now known as poppingtonic
01:56 < fenn> "embryo selection" was written by carl shulman + nick bostrom, not anders sandberg
01:57 < fenn> personally, i care about others trying to hack my brain using airborne chemicals in a supposedly peaceful civilian environment
01:58 < fenn> i don't want to live in a world where everyone must wear a gas mask everywhere
02:09 < TMA> it is already happening -- the imunocompatible others smell nice wich makes us succeptible to their advances :|
02:11 -!- Hercules [Hercules@unaffiliated/genkei] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
02:28 -!- Madplatypus [uid19957@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bjhozahwxxellpap] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
02:38 -!- wrldpc1 [~ben@bai859b91ac.bai.ne.jp] has joined ##hplusroadmap
03:03 -!- Act [uid89656@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cvgwmfzurrgpssjl] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
03:05 -!- drethelin [~drethelin@24-241-226-112.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
03:16 < fenn> fuzzy booleans should have been the default in opencascade, this is ten years too late: http://dev.opencascade.org/index.php?q=node/1056
03:17 < fenn> fixes errors with boolean operations on shapes with touching boundaries
03:23 -!- Act [uid89656@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-womahgfndtdlnane] has joined ##hplusroadmap
03:28 -!- Houshalter [~Houshalte@oh-71-50-56-224.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: Quit]
03:40 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeepkr@111.235.64.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
03:41 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeepkr@111.235.64.4] has joined ##hplusroadmap
03:43 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-facjbbfqshfmszqb] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
04:02 -!- ArturShaik [~ArturShai@31.29.7.72] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
04:06 -!- Viper168_ is now known as Viper168
04:41 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@185.7.192.138] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
04:46 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap
04:46 < chris_99> http://motherboard.vice.com/read/biohackers-are-implanting-led-lights-under-their-skin - not quite sure of the idea behind that
04:56 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@185.7.192.138] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:00 -!- ArturShaik [~ArturShai@31.29.7.72] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:01 -!- ArturShaik [~ArturShai@31.29.7.72] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
05:22 -!- ArturShaik [~ArturShai@31.29.7.72] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:23 -!- ArturShaik [~ArturShai@31.29.7.72] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
05:37 < kanzure> fenn: sure you should monitor for those events but your ethics is not going to be able to convince them to not exist
05:38 < kanzure> drethelin: irc channels don't need sponsors, but the channel's /topic was "sponsored by george church" for a few years
05:38 < kanzure> chris_99: lookup "grindhouse wetware" in the logs
05:41 -!- ArturShaik [~ArturShai@31.29.7.72] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:42 -!- ArturShaik [~ArturShai@31.29.7.72] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
05:44 < archels> chris_99: this is closer to bodymod than anything else. the EEs in this community are obviously stuck at Arduino level
05:46 < chris_99> heh yeah, i wouldn't say adding some leds has much to do with biology
05:48 < archels> well, implanting LEDs is all well and good, I have no gripes with that
05:48 < chris_99> sure, but it's not really biohacking
05:48 < archels> just the way in which these guys are carrying it out, with a battery that runs out before long—and mostly the stupidly large sizes of the objects they're sticking under their skin
05:49 < archels> sure, but it could conceivably work in symbiosis with it in the near future, e.g. when it comes to optogenetics
05:52 < kanzure> it's obnoxious
05:52 < kanzure> transobnoxious
05:52 < chris_99> heh
05:53 -!- EnabrinTain [sid11525@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-emvuzgiuhztkhsjz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
05:54 -!- PatrickRobotham [uid18270@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dkpfhpxkrsbzeqdk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
05:54 -!- EnabrinTain [sid11525@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-exhuzyyrakbhyubp] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:55 < FourFire> It looked stupid and useless, like a reprap
05:55 < chris_99> they could have at least used RGB leds
05:55 < FourFire> most of the value being in "look I did a thing, and it's morally revolting/interesting somehow, look how hackerculture I am"
05:56 -!- PatrickRobotham [uid18270@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wjtwrlihbdngjoot] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:57 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-56-137-83.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:58 < kanzure> the only "revolting" thing about it is their impressive ability to ignore our advice...
05:59 < FourFire> oh, I misused the word there, I meant something along the lines of boddy horror/selfmutilation aspects
05:59 < kanzure> well, i guess the attitude is also obnoxious and revolting. hm.
05:59 < FourFire> what advice was that?
05:59 < kanzure> wireless power transmission
06:00 < FourFire> yeah, I was surprised they did not have that.
06:00 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
06:00 < archels> I had a dream last week where one of these grinder people took one of those LED doohickeys that harvest cell phone radiated energy to flash in random patterns, and implanted it behind their ear
06:01 < archels> shoot, maybe I shouldn't be giving them any ideas
06:01 < FourFire> archels, seen black mirror?
06:02 < archels> some
06:03 < FourFire> there's one where society has normalized using a small object behind the ear acts as a lifelogging device, social dumbness ensues
06:03 < FourFire> implanted*
06:03 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap
06:07 -!- Taek42 is now known as Taek
06:15 -!- ArturShaik [~ArturShai@31.29.7.72] has joined ##hplusroadmap
06:19 -!- Hercules [Hercules@unaffiliated/genkei] has joined ##hplusroadmap
06:25 -!- atomical [~atomical@me25036d0.tmodns.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
06:28 -!- atomical [~atomical@me25036d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
06:30 -!- atomical [~atomical@50.247.130.97] has joined ##hplusroadmap
06:33 -!- atomical [~atomical@50.247.130.97] has quit [Client Quit]
06:34 -!- atomical [~atomical@50.247.130.97] has joined ##hplusroadmap
06:54 -!- Hercules [Hercules@unaffiliated/genkei] has quit [Quit: Powered off :-)]
07:07 -!- nmz787_i [~ntmccork@192.55.55.37] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:20 -!- nmz787_i1 [ntmccork@nat/intel/x-kotlwnmodtgjbygx] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:22 -!- nmz787_i [~ntmccork@192.55.55.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
07:33 -!- Act [uid89656@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-womahgfndtdlnane] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
07:40 -!- fleshtheworld [~fleshthew@2602:306:cf0f:4c20:5f5:7e74:eab:e025] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:41 -!- drethelin [~drethelin@24-241-226-112.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:42 -!- poppingtonic [~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
07:42 -!- nmz787_i1 [ntmccork@nat/intel/x-kotlwnmodtgjbygx] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
07:53 -!- nmz787_i [~ntmccork@192.55.54.36] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:54 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wfaunhzruoyttgbw] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:00 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@185.7.192.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
08:04 -!- Darius [~quassel@cpe-158-222-160-123.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:05 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
08:08 -!- Darius [~quassel@cpe-158-222-160-123.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
08:13 -!- Act [uid89656@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mvqctjercpbjaaka] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:14 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:23 -!- PatrickRobotham [uid18270@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wjtwrlihbdngjoot] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
08:30 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@2a02:270:2015:cafe:3523:72e7:1e78:68ae] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:40 < chris_99> nmz787_i, i had more of a look through that patent it seems they actually are using microlenses, which maybe is novel
08:44 < chris_99> actually i guess some image sensors have those anyway (such as Canons), maybe it just helps reduce noise
08:58 < nmz787_i> i saw that they said 'lenses' but then their comment about no dispersive elements made me think twice
08:58 < nmz787_i> but yeah microlenses are nothing new
08:59 < chris_99> mmm
09:01 < chris_99> i still don't understand the figures, theres something which looks like a big lens
09:02 < nmz787_i> the Lytro is a commercial camera with microlenses
09:02 < chris_99> yeah Canon cameras use them
09:02 < chris_99> too
09:03 < chris_99> not for plenoptic stuff
09:03 < chris_99> but for capturing more light afaik
09:03 < nmz787_i> yeah
09:03 < nmz787_i> I think that is pretty common for DSLRs
09:03 < chris_99> which might be what theyre using them here for?
09:03 < nmz787_i> but that is on the CCD, not further away
09:03 < nmz787_i> if that is what they're doing, idk
09:03 < chris_99> mmm
09:04 < nmz787_i> even in the Toshiba CCD datasheet I think they recommend an on-chip microlens
09:04 < nmz787_i> maybe they don't call it 'micro'
09:04 < chris_99> ah didn't notice that
09:04 < nmz787_i> I think they showed a half-cylinder lens though, or maybe that image is from a spectrometer building guide
09:08 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeepkr@111.235.64.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
09:16 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
09:18 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:19 -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@108.193-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
09:19 -!- Hercules [Hercules@unaffiliated/genkei] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:19 -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@108.193-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:27 -!- nmz787_i [~ntmccork@192.55.54.36] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
09:28 -!- Hercules [Hercules@unaffiliated/genkei] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
09:29 -!- Hercules [Hercules@unaffiliated/genkei] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:35 -!- atomical_ [~atomical@50.247.130.97] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:35 -!- atomical_ [~atomical@50.247.130.97] has quit [Client Quit]
09:36 -!- atomical_ [~atomical@50.247.130.97] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:39 -!- atomical [~atomical@50.247.130.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
09:44 -!- Hercules` [Hercules@117.245.137.212] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:45 -!- Darius [~quassel@207.251.103.46] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:48 -!- Hercules [Hercules@unaffiliated/genkei] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
10:03 -!- atomical_ [~atomical@50.247.130.97] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
10:04 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-56-137-83.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
10:04 -!- atomical [~atomical@50.247.130.97] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:06 -!- Darius [~quassel@207.251.103.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
10:07 -!- Darius [~quassel@207.251.103.46] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:15 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
10:18 -!- ArturShaik [~ArturShai@31.29.7.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
10:18 -!- Hercules` [Hercules@117.245.137.212] has quit [Quit: Powered off :-)]
10:27 -!- nmz787_i [~ntmccork@192.55.54.43] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:52 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:05 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
11:08 -!- hehelleshin [~talinck@66-161-138-110.ubr1.dyn.lebanon-oh.fuse.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:11 -!- helleshin [~talinck@66-161-138-110.ubr1.dyn.lebanon-oh.fuse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
11:18 -!- nmz787_i [~ntmccork@192.55.54.43] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
11:19 -!- nmz787_i [~ntmccork@192.55.54.43] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:33 -!- nmz787_i1 [~ntmccork@192.55.54.40] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:34 -!- nmz787_i [~ntmccork@192.55.54.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
11:54 -!- Burnin8 [~Burn@pool-74-96-98-64.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:55 -!- QuadIngi [FourFire@cm-84.215.195.59.getinternet.no] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:55 -!- Aurelius_Work [~cpopell@209.48.69.2] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:56 -!- Aurelius_Work2 [~cpopell@209.48.69.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
11:57 -!- Burn_ [~Burn@pool-74-96-98-64.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
11:57 -!- andares [~andares@unaffiliated/jacco] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:58 -!- ButaTine [FourFire@cm-84.215.195.59.getinternet.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
12:05 -!- nmz787_i1 [~ntmccork@192.55.54.40] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
12:16 < andares> Hey, I haven't been able to find much info on ways of assembling arbitrary DNA fragments in cells using something like light to control from the outside
12:17 < andares> (So that you don't need to synthesize oligomers inorganically)
12:17 < andares> Are there approachrs
12:18 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@2a02:270:2015:cafe:3523:72e7:1e78:68ae] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
12:19 < kanzure> andares: https://groups.google.com/group/enzymaticsynthesis
12:19 < kanzure> chemical oligonucleotide synthesis is always organic chemistry
12:20 < kanzure> also, dna fragment assembly is usually a separate technique from oligomer synthesis
12:20 -!- haskel [~haskell@203.188.241.206] has joined ##hplusroadmap
12:20 < kanzure> e.g. see gibson assembly, cycling ligase reaction, extension pcr, etc.
12:21 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/dna/synthesis/notes/
12:21 < haskel> guys, how can we push h+ as fast and as hard as we can?
12:21 < haskel> I don't want to be sitting around, as the clock ticks away
12:22 < kanzure> haskel: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transhumanism has an overview, but other than that i would say cheap simplified dna synthesis, more open-source software and more open-source hardware.
12:23 < haskel> kanzure, dna synthesis is just one step, how do you deliver that to all cells in the body? there needs to be cheap/robust/effective means of gene delivery
12:24 < kanzure> why do you need to deliver to *all* cells in the body? what
12:24 < haskel> kanzure, if you want a genetic upgrade, it seems reasonable you need for that to happen in most places of your body, unless you're targeting a specific organ or so
12:25 < kanzure> if you need for some crazy reason (btw, i can't really think of a good reason) to deliver genomic changes to every single cell in the entire body, then the ideal method to use would be in-vitro fertilization and somatic cell nuclear transfer prior to the development of an embryo
12:25 < haskel> kanzure, a bit late for us
12:25 < haskel> kanzure, virus based gene delivery is as close as it gets
12:25 < kanzure> well then stop making ridiculous demands like "every cell"
12:25 < haskel> kanzure, dont set goals low
12:26 < haskel> kanzure, it is theoritcally possible, not practically possible atm, but I think we can aim to get higher and higher coverage
12:26 < kanzure> sounds like you don't actually want the "every cell" requirement?
12:26 < haskel> kanzure, I think its a goal to work towards
12:27 < haskel> kanzure, precision is key to modifying biology, let's rub a little cream here and there and that will do the trick won't get you anywhere
12:27 < kanzure> which gene therapy technique uses a cream? i don't understand.
12:28 < haskel> kanzure, not speaking about gene therapy in specific, but more generally, i.e. topical is not the solution
12:30 < andares> Gibson assembly starts with small preexisting overlapping oligomers though right kanzure?
12:30 < haskel> kanzure, my point is once you've synthesized a desired gene, what are you going to do next with it?
12:30 < andares> Could those themselves be endogenously produced by bacteria and selected somehow?
12:31 < kanzure> haskel: i don't think that gene therapy vectors are a useful contribution, unless you have a unique method. dna synthesis continues to be too expensive to generate anything in bulk. that's the bottleneck at the moment.
12:31 < andares> Thanks for the link anyways
12:31 < andares> Omg inkjet DNA synthesizer. Neat
12:31 < haskel> kanzure, assume you take care of that, what then, now you have a ton of some desirable gene X, how do you get it to the cells that need that upgrade?
12:31 < kanzure> haskel: "what are you going to do next" it doesn't matter. having the tool is extremely important to the debug/test/build lifecycle. turning on that lifecycle is way more important than giving everyone projects ahead of time.
12:31 < fenn> i disagree, gene therapy vectors are very important even with "minor" changes to one or two nucleotides (very important if it's a disease-causing mutation)
12:32 < kanzure> haskel: but if you insist, http://diyhpl.us/wiki/dna/projects/#igem-2013
12:32 < kanzure> haskel: i thought you were already aware of gene therapy... why are you asking me?
12:33 < haskel> kanzure, I get your point, both are important, and from my understanding we can synthesize genes (perhaps not cheaply); so that bit is possible, but there is a delivery black hole that needs to be addressed
12:33 < kanzure> fenn: gene therapy vectors are useful, but i don't see any suggestion here for how to make them cheaper or whethre their cost of synthesis is too high in the first place. so i'm not sure what you're trying to add to haskel's statements.
12:33 < kanzure> gene therapy vectors are not a black hole
12:34 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/gene-therapy/
12:34 < fenn> i'm just saying the quantity of DNA is not the limiting factor with gene therapy
12:34 < haskel> fenn, agree 100%
12:35 < kanzure> why bring up quantity of dna?
12:35 < haskel> kanzure, we need A and B for something to happen, A is possible (we can precisely construct DNA/RNA with precise codes) but not efficiently, B is still a bit elusive, so don't you think B deserves attention?
12:35 < kanzure> i'm fairly happy with current gene therapy methods.
12:36 < andares> I want to try some out
12:36 < kanzure> why?
12:36 < andares> RNAi seems rather accessible
12:36 < andares> To make changes, of course! :)
12:36 < andares> I am interested in knocking out DMRT1
12:36 < haskel> kanzure, so let's take the precise DNA/RNA codes we are pretty confident about, and deliver them? why not go for the full proof of concept? instead of focusing on the part thats done but maybe not as efficiently as you like
12:36 < kanzure> i think you would have a neasier time finding someone to test gene therapy on you, than the difficulty you would face finding someone to give you gene therapy treatment for something specific that you choose.
12:37 < haskel> kanzure, I don't believe that at all
12:37 < kanzure> so i suggest if you really want to try gene therapy out for whatever reason, you focus on not picking the target type or treatment type.
12:37 < kanzure> huh? there are already clinical trials for gene therapy, there just isn't "pick your own gene therapy target" out there at the moment, unless you do it yourself. but he said "i want to try some out", so i assumed he was talking about the thing i said (current stuff).
12:37 < haskel> kanzure, I could get into dna synthesis right now if I wanted to, I have no idea how to start delivery
12:38 < andares> Kanzure, I was thinking DIY (or rather, pipe-dreaming)
12:38 < kanzure> er, what's wrong with the gene therapy literature i just linked you to?
12:38 < kanzure> andares: i see. that makes more sense to me.
12:38 < kanzure> andares: re: gibson assembly, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibson_assembly
12:38 < andares> Basically, I'd need to get a 25bp DNA fragment synthesized. Then an RNA polymerase kit for producing dsRNA
12:39 < andares> then produce SNALP vesicles using some lipids, that teflon machine and a micropore filter
12:40 < andares> Then mix in the dsRNA with the SNALPs in solution, sonicate and inject
12:40 < andares> (Hypothetically)
12:41 < andares> Not really out of the realm of feasibility for DIY, just dangerous
12:41 < haskel> kanzure, here's a target: telomerase gene therapy, we can precisely print he dna to create telomerase, so we're done right? since delivery is so easy and not an issue and easier than the former?
12:41 < kanzure> haskel: because i don't see much value in "full proof of concept". i'm completely convinced that gene therapy works for certain definitions of work. telomerase gene therapy is completely unconvincing, though.
12:42 < haskel> kanzure, because i don't see much value in "full proof of concept" are you serious?
12:42 < kanzure> "full proof of concept" is fine if you have a good target-- but so far, nobody has a good target.
12:42 < kanzure> yes, i'm completely serious. telemorase is not a good "proof-of-concept" target.
12:42 < haskel> kanzure, so what's the point if we just want to toy around with and not do anything with it?
12:42 < haskel> kanzure, why not full proof of concept? wtf
12:42 < kanzure> yea if you don't fuck up your telomeres, you're just playing around
12:42 < kanzure> wtf?
12:42 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/genetic-modifications/
12:43 < haskel> kanzure, you just one to focus on one part of the bigger picture? which has been solved but not as efficiently as you like?
12:43 < haskel> want*
12:43 < kanzure> i think you're just making stuff up.
12:43 < haskel> kanzure, please enlighten me
12:43 < kanzure> evidence includes things like how you thought gene therapy was a black hole....
12:43 < kanzure> well i linked you to a bunch of papers on gene therapy
12:44 < haskel> kanzure, it's far from solved buddy
12:44 < haskel> kanzure, are you an expert in gene therapy?
12:44 < fenn> "The DMRT1 gene is critical in the male sex determination and without this gene the default female characteristic takes over and male characteristic is slight or non-existent." i think i see where this is going... however, "When a DMRT1 gene is lost the most common disease is chromosome 9p deletion, which causes abnormal testicular formation and feminization." so you're too late, the damage has
12:44 < fenn> been done, pick a different target
12:44 < kanzure> haskel: fuck experts
12:44 < haskel> kanzure, and there we go
12:44 < andares> Kanzure, is the DNA inkjet printer being worked on actively?
12:44 < kanzure> most experts can't even be bothered to read most of the literature- it's just authority bullshit
12:45 < haskel> kanzure, for h+ to get anywhere things need to be approached scientifically, rigorously
12:45 < kanzure> andares: uh depends on your definition of active!
12:45 < kanzure> haskel: that has fucking NOTHING to do with "experts" you coward
12:45 < andares> Fenn, you are mostly correct. But see http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v476/n7358/full/nature10239.html
12:45 < haskel> kanzure, so you've bothered to read most of the literature, and "experts" havent?
12:46 < kanzure> haskel: but yes, i've read a lot about gene therapy. at the moment i wouldn't consider myself able to talk with gene therapy "experts" because my mind is full of fluff from dna synthesis and bitcoin, but i could brush up pretty quick i think.
12:46 < andares> Here we show that sexual fate is also surprisingly labile in the testis: loss of the DMRT1 transcription factor3 in mouse Sertoli cells, even in adults, activates Foxl2 and reprograms Sertoli cells into granulosa cells. In this environment, theca cells form, oestrogen is produced and germ cells appear feminized. 
12:46 < kanzure> haskel: yeah, one of the things that aubrey de grey is quick to point out is that a lot of gerontology people don't actually read the literature. it's an important step to understand wtf is going on.
12:46 < haskel> kanzure, why do you think gene therapy/delivery is done?
12:46 < kanzure> haskel: anyway, it's 100% wrong to conclude that only "experts" can do science. correctness is something that exists independent of any institutionally-granted titles.
12:46 < andares> Neat stuff, eh fenn?
12:47 < kanzure> haskel: asking whether i am an "expert" is just.. stupid. who the shit cares whether i am an expert? what's important is my level of correctness.
12:47 < haskel> kanzure, let's not get into semantics
12:48 < haskel> kanzure, why do you think gene therapy/delivery is done?
12:48 -!- jdqx [~jdqx@108-201-65-149.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
12:48 < andares> Kanzure, are there people left around to talk about the design of the printer and give it a try completing it? ;)
12:48 < kanzure> haskel: i am also completely unconvinced that i'm "focusing only on one part of a bigger picture". that's an absurd claim, and you need to give some serious evidence to back up that claim for me to accept it.
12:48 < kanzure> andares: yes there are people around who have put in work towards that printer
12:49 < kanzure> andares: at the moment the printer is on hold namely because we never found the right chemist to hire, and also because the assembly steps were not completely designed
12:49 < kanzure> er, dna assembly, not machine assembly
12:49 < haskel> kanzure, please enlighten me then, on what you think the bigger picture is, what you work on, and why that is moving things forward as fast as possible?
12:49 < andares> Kanzure, ah for the annealing?
12:50 < kanzure> haskel: you can't just wave your hand and get magical phenotype changes. that's not how biology works. nobody knows the exact mapping from genotype to phenotype for all possible changes. telomerase changes aren't going to produce easily observable effects for a long, long time. it's a bad "proof of concept".
12:50 < andares> Plus isn't it pretty highly conserved?
12:50 < kanzure> andares: dna annealing? no, not worried about hybridization.
12:51 < andares> Oh! Neat then. What would you hire the chemist for? Design, or synthesis of the material?
12:51 < kanzure> design, plus debugging of the chemistry
12:51 -!- jdqx_ [~jdqx@2602:306:cc94:1950:f8bb:90c1:43e7:3b73] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
12:51 < kanzure> shit doesn't just work on first try. needs optimization and debugging. lots of stuff to go wrong. involvement during design stage also important.
12:51 < andares> Ah, I see
12:52 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@cm-84.215.195.59.getinternet.no] has joined ##hplusroadmap
12:52 < andares> Do grad students ever contribute to h+ projects like these off the clock?
12:52 < kanzure> yes
12:53 < fenn> there is no "off the clock" for grad students though...
12:53 < andares> Haa, true
12:53 < andares> Ah the lavish life of an industry programmer
12:54 < haskel> kanzure, yet it's worked on mice, so what do you think is a better proof of concept; or do you think that doesn't matter, let's just focus on efficiently printing genes and not worry about anything else?
12:54 < haskel> don't get me wrong, efficently printing genes is important, but I think there is a lot more to it
12:54 < fenn> haskel the point of making lots of DNA cheaply is to speed up research in general
12:55 < haskel> fenn, what research are we speeding up?
12:55 < fenn> oh little problems like "what is aging"
12:55 < fenn> "how does the brain work" etc
12:55 < haskel> fenn, that's a bit vauge, printing genes efficiently does not equate to automatic results for "what is aging"
12:55 < fenn> of course not
12:56 < fenn> but if you're involved in active research you need to print a lot of genes
12:56 < kanzure> dna synthesis is required because you must have dna molecules to build proteins, molecular machines, reprogram other cells in bulk. you need to do this at large-scale because we currently don't know (or may never know) the actual rules of biochemistry and biophysics. instead, we can iterate over large possibility spaces to find the features and functions that we desire.
12:57 < kanzure> research prospects are v. important to speed up, but there's a lot of low-hanging engineering fruit, telomerase doesn't seem to be one of them- mouse results are OK, but i don't care. show me a better demo, like restoring color/infrared vision.
13:01 < haskel> fenn, kanzure, we are able to print genes, and the efficiency is getting there very quickly: http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/05/07/404460240/dna-printing-a-big-boon-to-research-but-some-raise-concerns
13:01 < haskel> kanzure, " telomerase doesn't seem to be one of them- mouse results are OK" can you be a bit more specific?
13:02 < haskel> kanzure, I used the specific example of a mouse to give some evidence, can you give a specific example why telomerase gene therapy isn't worth exploring atm?.
13:02 < kanzure> the mouse results for telomerase modification seem to be OK results, but i don't have 200 years to wait to see whether that works for humans
13:02 < haskel> specific example/reason whatever
13:03 < kanzure> old people are already way too damaged for those results to matter anyway; it's like trying to fix a 747 crashing into the ocean by flipping a light switch or something.
13:03 < fenn> haskel: i'm quite aware of cambrian genomics, i used to live with the chief scientist. after austen's death the investors got skittish and pulled out, last i heard the lab was being auctioned off at near scrap prices :(
13:03 < kanzure> biological cause of aging is highly likely to be multi-faceted, aubrey's WELT approach for replacing all bone marrow seems much more useful approach, i don'--
13:04 < kanzure> oh what was the final price?
13:04 < haskel> kanzure, lol that's fundamentally flawed logic, for you to know if any anti-aging therapy will work over 200 years, you will have to wait that 200 years to know, no matter how accurate the computer models/etc. are
13:04 < kanzure> did they get the $4M they wanted
13:04 < fenn> ask t12
13:04 -!- Darius [~quassel@207.251.103.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
13:04 < kanzure> i don't think t12 likes me :-)
13:04 < fenn> hum who knows
13:04 < kanzure> yeah i shouldn't claim that, i haven't asked him
13:04 < haskel> kanzure, lol that's fundamentally flawed logic, for you to know if any anti-aging therapy will work over 200 years, you will have to wait that 200 years to know, no matter how accurate the computer models/etc. are
13:05 < fenn> i doubt they got the rescue money or t12 would be doing stuff in the lab instead of puttering around his home shop
13:05 < haskel> kanzure, move up the ladder from mouse to monkey
13:05 -!- erasei [~erasei@x.kaw.cc] has joined ##hplusroadmap
13:05 < kanzure> haskel: not really; you can perform a lot of rejuvenation work on super old people. but telomerase ain't going to be enough. it's not enough to show results in aging populations, in my opinion. unless you do large-scale statistical studies i guess... but i don't care about populations, i care about individuals.
13:06 < fenn> haskel: anyway after seeing many corporations implement stuff i wanted to do and then ultimately fail or "pivot" or just not do the right thing, i realized it's important to be able do things that need to be done even if it seems like someone else is doing that
13:06 < kanzure> yeah my lack of progress re: speculation on anti-aging therapies has lead me to believe that cryonics will probably be working long before anti-aging.
13:07 < kanzure> however, my "young blood rejuvenation" ideas might be an interesting approach towards super-old rejuvenation; however, requires large-scale selective breeding, and i still think cryonics is a better use of that sort of facility, ahead of "young blood rejuvenation" breeding attempts.
13:07 < haskel> kanzure, so you want dramatic results like a old person becoming "young" again, and the best approach to that is investigating printing dna (which is done, though not as efficient as you like, though companies are bridging that efficiency gap very very quickly)
13:07 < kanzure> no, i don't want old->young, i think that's stupid
13:08 < kanzure> dna synthesis is a requirement for working with biological systems. no exception.
13:08 < haskel> kanzure, and dna synthesis is done
13:08 < kanzure> that there are companies that sell you 1500 bp dna for $5000 is not interesting... that's useless. you can't do anything interesting with that unless you have like $200 billion.
13:08 < haskel> kanzure, the efficiency bit will get there very soon with a lot of for-profit companies at it
13:09 < kanzure> which companies do you have in mind? cambrian genomics? oops. twist biosciences? itdna?
13:09 < haskel> kanzure, copying and synthesizing dna are two different things buddy, you pay for 1 synthesized bit, replicate it for much cheaper chemically
13:09 < fenn> i still want a desktop dna synthesizer
13:09 -!- Darius [~quassel@207.251.103.46] has joined ##hplusroadmap
13:09 < haskel> fenn, sure I do to, but then what?
13:09 < kanzure> haskel: yes, i'm aware of the differences. i'm talking about de novo dna synthesis.
13:10 < kanzure> haskel: we have already explained to you the "then what" part. what was wrong with the previous explanations?
13:10 < haskel> kanzure, you did not explain, you said gene therapy is done, I asked you about that two times why you think it's done, care to elaborate?
13:10 < kanzure> we seem to be having two wildly different conversations......
13:11 < kanzure> no, "then what" was not a question about gene therapy. you asked "then what" about desktop dna synthesis.
13:11 < fenn> it's way past my bedtime and this conversation is way too confrontational and too fast to keep up with
13:11 < kanzure> can't blame you, seeya
13:11 < haskel> fenn, later, sorry if it is coming off as conforntational, just trying to understand
13:12 < andares> Kanzure, re: DNA synthesis. I'm still not sure I understand if there are any approaches that don't involve externally synthesizing the DNA and then using a vector
13:12 < kanzure> haskel: i think you would be wise to drop the accusational tone and look more closely at existing technology. also, you should not assume that telomerase is a magic silver bullet. results come from broad technology fundamentals building up over time and technical tools becoming better, not from riding a magic bullet into the singularity.
13:12 < andares> I was thinking along the lines of toggling in a sequence via light pulses at a bacterial colony
13:13 < andares> The Gibbs method seems like it could be a useful component of this
13:13 < kanzure> andares: https://groups.google.com/group/enzymaticsynthesis discusses some theoretical ways to do in vivo dna synthesis as well as other ways to hijack proteins to synthesize both dna, rna and proteins; for example, electronically-controlled and light-controlled polymerase have been proposed, unfortunately nobody knows how to make that work yet.
13:13 < andares> Ah, missed that link before. Thanks
13:14 < haskel> kanzure, telomerase is one direction of many agreed, I mentioned that to give a specific example when you said there are no good gene therapy targets atm
13:14  * fenn puts in a good word for GDF11
13:14 < kanzure> yes and i mentioned http://diyhpl.us/wiki/genetic-modifications/ but it looks like neither of you follow any god damn links :-/
13:15 < andares> https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/enzymaticsynthesis/DApMjXx8gS4
13:15 < andares> This seems exactly like what I was looking for
13:15 < kanzure> andares: unfortunately that approach isn't exactly what i would call "promising" at the moment.......
13:15 < andares> Ah
13:15 < kanzure> oh, the tdt one
13:15 < kanzure> ok
13:15 < kanzure> that's not what i was thinking of
13:16 < kanzure> because it's not in vivo
13:17 < kanzure> haskel: you should read all of these http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/gene-therapy/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/
13:17 < fenn> andares i think you'll have to either be very clever with multiple unusual DNA polymerases, or solve the protein folding problem and build a light-directed DNA synthase from scratch
13:17 < kanzure> and http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/DNA/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/polymerase/ for good measure
13:17 < kanzure> andares: this one also applies to you, http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/polymerase/
13:18 < andares> Yeah, and I just saw one thread about hijacking telomeraaw
13:18 < haskel> kanzure, I understand there are technical challenges that need to be overcome to print dna, but creating copies is cheap, so with existing tech we can for relatively low cost print dna, then make as many copies as we want to play around with
13:19 < kanzure> haskel: the problem is one of programming ("which changes?")
13:19 < andares> Apparently it appends 6 nts, and through some magic you can make it an arbitrary 6
13:19 < haskel> kanzure, that's an informatics problem
13:19 < kanzure> no... it's not an informatics problem.
13:19 < haskel> kanzure, ......
13:19 < kanzure> bioinformatics is not going to tell you which changes you want that don't already exist
13:19 < fenn> cue bad metaphor quote
13:19 < kanzure> the jrayhawk quote?
13:20 < haskel> kanzure, so what will tell us if not computational methods that can make sense of the huge web of gene/protein etc. interactions?
13:21 < kanzure> large-scale dna synthesis of millions of competing different sequences.
13:21 < andares> thanks again.for all these links, kanzure. You're the best!
13:21 < haskel> kanzure, now is the 1st time you give me a direct statement on how large-scale dna synthesis can be used for practical gain
13:22 < haskel> kanzure, so you're approach is to make dna printing cheaper, print out all sorts of de novo dna, and try them out?
13:23 < kanzure> sort of? i mean, the other reason to have large-scale dna synthesis is for genome synthesis reasons. and then test variations of genomes in microbes and so on. these can be symbiotes of most kinds.
13:23 < kanzure> but also many other uses of microbial genome synthesis
13:23 < haskel> kanzure, I don't disagree with that, I think you would also need methods of automatically doing that, so you can try out millions of different things in millions of different cells, and then automatically keep track of results
13:23 < kanzure> such as downloading genes from the interwebs (instead of begging for plasmids from gated communities)
13:24 < kanzure> yes, it's true that you need to use automation, see http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/
13:24 < haskel> kanzure, thank you for clarifying your approach, that was what I was trying to get at with "what next", so the what next is: print all sorts of de novo dna and try them out, brute force an understanding of life
13:25 < kanzure> i already mentioned large-scale dna synthesis as necessary for exploring possibility space, ctrl-f on http://gnusha.org/logs/2015-11-16.log
13:25 < kanzure> for my own purposes i don't really care about understanding (although it's important), i care about engineering
13:25 < kanzure> so e.g. large-scale dna synthesis can be used for the construction of molecular nanotechnology based on proteins
13:25 < haskel> kanzure, sure bruteforce the code that gives you the desired result then?
13:25 < kanzure> https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer
13:26 -!- nmz787_i [~ntmccork@192.55.54.40] has joined ##hplusroadmap
13:26 < fenn> "brute force" is not the goal, it's just being able to do an experiment without waiting around for days or months to see a result, and blowing your entire budget on a single experiment
13:26 < andares> There's easyish ways of shotgun assembling completely random ~6nt DNA fragments right?
13:26 < kanzure> fenn i am surprised your primarily research angling here...
13:27 < kanzure> andares: er, i think you need at least 8-10 bp nt...
13:27 < andares> Ah
13:27 < andares> And then you sort with that microbead array + laser?
13:28 < kanzure> well, that was cambrian genomics' approach... for the dna synthesizer discussed often in here, approach for dna assembly is still up in the air..... kinda open problem.
13:29 < fenn> probably something like light-directed manipulation of droplets or beads though
13:29 < fenn> just because of the huge numbers involved
13:29 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@cm-84.215.195.59.getinternet.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
13:29 < kanzure> i dunno, i'm still fond of my ping pong ball sorting machine concept
13:30 < haskel> kanzure, fenn, but you need a system, you can't manually try out all sorts of de novo dna, unless you are using computational methods to engineer the de novo dna, so if you are not using computational methods, you need automation to try out the de novo dna, and if you do that in a large enough scale, then it is essentially brute force
13:30 < kanzure> nobody disagreed about calling it bruteforce
13:30 < kanzure> fenn's disagreement was with your claim that bruteforcing was the goal
13:30 < fenn> i guess kanzure and i have a slightly different vision
13:31 < kanzure> well, reducing research costs is important, but i want to actually use this stuff for my own insane engineering reasons
13:31 < fenn> i would use computational methods to engineer the DNA
13:31 < kanzure> i am v. selfish
13:31 < fenn> however we also need to do experiments to develop the computational methods
13:31 < andares> Kanzure, hehe me too. What do you think about self-experimentation BTW?
13:31 < kanzure> self-experimentation is fine as long as your experiment isn't stupid
13:32 < andares> My experiment probably would be
13:32 < kanzure> experimental design is important
13:32 < fenn> don't be a "grinder" and you're probably fine
13:32 < andares> Unless I can degrade the RNAi somehow
13:32 < kanzure> if you want to do stupid stuff, that's fine, but oyu should fully admit to said stupidity, and not smear the good name of science or other things
13:32 < haskel> fenn, bingo I can agree with the computational/experiment feedback loop you propose which would benefit off of cheap de-novo synthesis
13:32 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@cm-84.215.195.59.getinternet.no] has joined ##hplusroadmap
13:33 < andares> Kanzure , where do you learn about experimental clinical protocol for gene therapy?
13:33 < haskel> fenn, this is what I was trying to get at, we dont build cars for the hell of it, we build cars to get from point A to point B
13:33 < andares> Like E.g. I'd try it out on biopsy tissue first
13:33 < kanzure> andares: you should start with a community college biology lab class
13:34 < kanzure> haskel: speak for yourself, building cars for the hell of it is perfectly fine
13:34 < andares> I was thinking of trying to volunteer at a UW lab
13:34 < andares> And auditing some bio classes
13:34 < haskel> kanzure, I can appreciate that sentiment as well, but I think h+ has very specific practical goals ;)
13:34 < kanzure> biology classes can be done online, although lab classes often it's better in person
13:34 < Aurelius_Work> kanzure : I was thinking of getting a supercar kit at some point
13:34 < kanzure> Aurelius_Work: what the hell stopped you
13:34 -!- QuadIngi [FourFire@cm-84.215.195.59.getinternet.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
13:35 < Aurelius_Work> kanzure : I have other things to do in my spare time like play fallout and learn scheme and ruby
13:35 < Aurelius_Work> (and I don't have a garage)
13:35 < Aurelius_Work> and I want it to be <5% of my assets
13:35 < Aurelius_Work> lol
13:35 < kanzure> can't you abuse a friend's garage? seems like american way.
13:35 < fenn> andares i recommend taking a virology lab if you can, most other college classes are worthless
13:35 < kanzure> virology why?
13:36 < kanzure> why not uh, hm, molecular biology lab protocol class?
13:36 < fenn> because you work with viruses and mammalian tissue culture, both of which are not used at all in any other class
13:36 < Aurelius_Work> kanzure : I want me some garage power armor :P
13:36 < andares> Well, I do want a strong theoretical background
13:36 < kanzure> theory can be picked up outside of class... coursera, youtube, books, whatever.
13:36 < kanzure> class does not teach you how to do good science theory or speculation
13:36 < fenn> wikipedia
13:37 < kanzure> wookiepedia too
13:37 < andares> That's how I've been learning.
13:37 < andares> Lol
13:38 -!- AetherServer [FourFire@cm-84.215.195.59.getinternet.no] has joined ##hplusroadmap
13:38 < andares> Have y'all seen this? http://www.technologyreview.com/view/543491/now-you-can-genetically-engineer-living-cells-with-a-home-kit-should-you/
13:38 -!- AetherServer is now known as ButaTine
13:38 < kanzure> andares: https://groups.google.com/group/diybio
13:39 -!- Madplatypus [uid19957@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wtnsbraghrrrtwpi] has joined ##hplusroadmap
13:40 < kanzure> fenn: tissue culture is good reason. i suppose i would also suggest synthetic/organic chemistry labs too, since those methods are highly relevant to sterility and synthesis..
13:40 < fenn> no, synthetic organic chemistry is something completely different than biology
13:40 < fenn> it's just a weeding-out course for pre-med students
13:40 < haskel> kanzure, and the channel's name is hplus**roadmap** which is essentially what I was trying to get at lol, thanks for answering my questions, fenn thank you as well, I think it is important to speed up the computational/experimental loop with cheap de novo synthesis, but I think we must also explore more immediate gains such as telomerase gene therapy etc. which involves getting the delivery part right, which I think is no where near done
13:41 < kanzure> haskel: re: the channel, see http://diyhpl.us/wiki/hplusroadmap and http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transhumanism
13:41 < kanzure> instead of telomerase i suggest looking at http://diyhpl.us/wiki/genetic-modifications/ and http://diyhpl.us/wiki/dna/projects/#igem-2013 etc
13:42 < fenn> i am not convinced that telomerase is important, but gene therapy needs some work for sure
13:43 < haskel> fenn, agreed, I definitely think telomerase is worth exploring, it's had an effect on mice, and it has a clear physical link to cell aging, and there is a clear method to restore telomeres
13:43 < haskel> it sounds low hanging fruit to me in terms of things to be explored
13:43 < fenn> you can say the same thing about choline
13:43 < andares> I really really hate the way Amino calls genes "apps"
13:44 < fenn> i really hate anything "design-centric"
13:44 < andares> Everything about the style of this project is infuriating
13:44 < kanzure> that's the only thing you hate about "amino"?
13:44 < kanzure> yes, it's infuriating
13:44 < andares> I haven't read what it actually contains yet
13:44 < andares> Can't play audio
13:44 < haskel> fenn, what is choline's physical link to cell aging?
13:44 < kanzure> perhaps you shouldn't
13:44 < kanzure> andares: only pain and hatred will you find that way
13:44 < fenn> andares it contains "design"
13:45 < kanzure> andares: you could read hplusroadmap logs to see our previous analysis of "amino"
13:45 < andares> Where's File->Print? :p
13:45 < andares> I'll go back and read for sure, on phone atm
13:45 < kanzure> "menus? this is design, only buttons. in fact, only one button."
13:46 < fenn> haskel: extends mouse lifespan 25%, increases insulin sensitivity and gene methylation, clear method to getting more choline into the metabolism
13:46 < fenn> well DMAE but they're practically the same thing
13:47 < andares> Oh, do you send away for your "app" to be synthesized?
13:48 < haskel> fenn, but choline is involved in a lot of things, whereas literally the only purpose of telomerase is to restore telomeres which shorten each time the cell divides, that can't be good for your genes
13:49 < fenn> uh that doesn't sound like the biology we all know and love
13:49 < fenn> "the only purpose" is your simplified mental model
13:50 < Aurelius_Work> 'literally the only purpose' makes me twitch and I don't even know/like biology
13:50 < FourFire> ...
13:50 < haskel> fenn, it's been a while for me, is there any other established role of telomerase ?
13:50 < FourFire> haskel, the mammilian cell isn't even fully mapped, by anyone.
13:50 < fenn> i have no idea what telomeres are for
13:50 < fenn> (yes i know about the hayflick limit)
13:51 < haskel> fenn, they are the buffer zone to your actual genes
13:51 < haskel> fenn, each time the cell divides they get a bit shorter
13:51 < FourFire> AFAIK the telomere is a correlation assumption: "oh the dna gets fucked up when these things run out, then that must be why blah blah"
13:52 < haskel> FourFire, well dna gets shorter, so eventually that will eat into useful genes right?
13:52 < haskel> FourFire, so a way to prevent that is to lengthen the telomeres, which I understand telomerase will do
13:52 < FourFire> haskel, sure, but it's a massive assumption to believe that is the sole, or evne main purpose of a given molecule.
13:53 < kanzure> haskel: what exactly was your objection to whole body stem cell replacement therapies? e.g. http://www.sens.org/research/research-blog/aged-stem-cells-and-niches-rejuvenated-systemic-factors-implications-wilt
13:53 < kanzure> oh wait, bad link
13:53 < kanzure> don't click oh god we're all gonna fucking die
13:54 < haskel> kanzure, I have no objection as long as it is solid science, and practical
13:54 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcRDiPeNyas
13:54 < yoleaux> WILT: taking cancer seriously enough to really cure it - YouTube
13:54 < kanzure> uh apparently i don't have a WILT paper... wtf.
13:54 < fenn> yeah linking to a video is surprising from you
13:55 < kanzure> well, i literally can't find a thing about WILT
13:55 < haskel> FourFire, is there any other established role of telomerase? (there may be some other role telomerase plays, but I think atm that is the only role we have established)
13:55 < kanzure> and sens foundation is still around
13:55 < kanzure> so lack of availability of WILT explanation is really surprising
13:55 < fenn> 'telomeres may have a role in the prevention of cancer. This is because the telomeres act as a sort of time-delay "fuse"'
13:56 < FourFire> haskel, I don't know, I think it's unknown in general, a great deal about Mammal cells is unknown in general
13:56 < kanzure> world-class scientific modeling there, folks
13:56 < haskel> fenn, but is that not through the same mechanism of action, keep telomeres long?
13:56 < fenn> aubrey's solution is to kill telomerase because tumors use it to bypass the hayflick limit
13:56 < kanzure> and also replace all yer stem cells once a decade because loldamage
13:57 < haskel> fenn, aubrey is not god, and in fact he looks like the spitting image of a snake oil salesman to me
13:57 < kanzure> nobody claimed he was god
13:57 < kanzure> perhaps you are confusing him with father time?
13:57 < fenn> well whatever, i'm just explaining what WILT is so you don't have to watch a video
13:58 < haskel> fenn, sorry for coming off a bit harsh, thanks for the explanation
13:58 < FourFire> I want to substantially change how DNA information is stored
13:58 < kanzure> FourFire: have you considered using molecules?
13:58 < haskel> FourFire, indeed, my point is simply that atm it is the only established role
13:59 < haskel> FourFire, which is in contrast to many other chemicals/proteins which play multiple multiple roles
13:59 < FourFire> I'd like to, if I can do it quickly enough, find a way to store the three bit encoding across a parity of multiple DNA molecules for each given sequence (so duplicate chromosomes) but I don't know exactly how that's going to work.
13:59 < FourFire> haskel, sure.
14:00 < FourFire> kanzure, of I'm not planning on removing anything, just adding functionality
14:00 < fenn> forward error correction codes?
14:00 -!- atomical [~atomical@50.247.130.97] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
14:04 < fenn> ok sleep for real now
14:09 < kanzure> fenn: yeah i know that anders didn't write that article, but i was talking about nick bostrom when i made that claim, not anders.
14:09 < kanzure> ("what's so dumb about bostrom" was the prompt)
14:17 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@cm-84.215.195.59.getinternet.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
14:31 -!- jdqx [~jdqx@108-201-65-149.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:37 -!- Darius [~quassel@207.251.103.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
14:37 < kanzure> "The electrical implants aren’t turned on to provide chronic brain stimulation until two weeks after DBS surgery, which allows the brain to heal from the trauma of the surgery, which causes inflammation and brain shift of up to six millimeters."
14:38 < kanzure> "DBS surgery... 8% risk of bleeding in the brain; 8% chance of stroke or permanent neurological deficits; 15% chance of infection; 5% risk of hemorrhage; 2% risk of seizure."
14:39 < kanzure> man it's almost like they should listen to me when i tell them to use remote ultrasound
14:41 < kanzure> "Given the problems with DBS research, and with growing evidence of bias in much clinical trial research conducted, it's perhaps no surprise that many of the doctors and specialists involved in these DBS trials were paid by device manufacturers and/or provided with research funding. For instance, among the investigators involved in the initial Canadian trial, Dr. Helen Mayberg holds patent and licensing rights for the treatment of ...
14:41 < kanzure> ... depression through DBS of the Cg25. Neurosurgeon Dr. Andres Lozano is a consultant for Medtronic and holds intellectual property rights in DBS; in 2010, he founded of a DBS investigational company called Functional Neuromodulation, a partner company of Medtronic."
14:41 < kanzure> eh, i don't think that's a big concern, unless you are looking at disease treatment outcomes. but it seems rather hard to lie about whether stimulation is occurring?
14:41 < kanzure> from http://www.madinamerica.com/2015/09/adverse-effects-perils-deep-brain-stimulation-depression/
14:42 -!- Darius [~quassel@207.251.103.46] has joined ##hplusroadmap
14:43 < kanzure> oh they choose very strange entrypoint choices... http://www.madinamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/image-of-insert-300x274.jpeg
14:44 < kanzure> nah probably fine just jam it right through the frontal cortices, people don't need neural integrity there, right?
14:47 < kanzure> cool "Regarding the IRB, the motion stated that “Stanford’s IRB is immune from liability under California’s Peer Review Statute Civil Code."
14:49 < kanzure> "Burr hole cover for cranial surgery" http://www.google.com/patents/US5961519
14:52 < nmz787_i> /me electrolytes, it's what polymerase craves
14:53 -!- drewbot_ [~cinch@ec2-174-129-78-214.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
14:53 < nsh> hey kanzure
14:53 -!- drewbot_ [~cinch@ec2-174-129-78-214.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
14:53 < kanzure> nsh: sup
14:53 -!- altersid [~sid@altersid.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
14:54 -!- Aurelius_Home [~cpopell@c-76-26-144-132.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
14:54 -!- iDavid [jinx@joe.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
14:54 -!- heath [~heath@unaffiliated/ybit] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
14:54 < nsh> idea: write a script on crontab that tracks the citation numbers for all the papers you have archived, be configurable to set alerts on any change in delta-cites over some nested periods above some threshold
14:54 -!- Stskeeps [~cvm@unaffiliated/stskeeps] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
14:54 -!- berndj [~berndj@azna.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
14:54 -!- superkuh [~superkuh@unaffiliated/superkuh] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
14:54 -!- maaku [~quassel@botbot.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
14:54 < kanzure> inverse is also important
14:54 < kanzure> things that people are /not/ citing
14:54 < nsh> right
14:55 < nsh> especially if displaced
14:55 < kanzure> hm
14:55 < nsh> so you can determine if things are just falling off, or being replaced with a better reference
14:55 -!- altersid [~sid@altersid.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
14:55 < kanzure> sorta inbetween thing i do regularly is look up papers by researcher
14:55 < nsh> former implies loss of currency/interest; latter implies better synopsis
14:55 < kanzure> to see what they are up to
14:55  * nsh nods
14:55 -!- altersid is now known as Guest33922
14:55 < kanzure> but by-researcher is bad approach because most people are one-hit wonders
14:55 -!- heath [~heath@unaffiliated/ybit] has joined ##hplusroadmap
14:55 -!- iDavid [jinx@joe.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap
14:56 -!- Stskeeps [~cvm@boat.tspre.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap
14:56 -!- Stskeeps [~cvm@boat.tspre.org] has quit [Changing host]
14:56 -!- Stskeeps [~cvm@unaffiliated/stskeeps] has joined ##hplusroadmap
14:56 < nsh> aye
14:59 -!- berndj [~berndj@azna.co.za] has joined ##hplusroadmap
14:59 -!- docl_ [~docl@104.131.200.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
15:02 -!- Aurelius_Home [~cpopell@c-76-26-144-132.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
15:02 -!- yorick_ [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has joined ##hplusroadmap
15:02 -!- Aurelius_Work2 [~cpopell@209.48.69.2] has joined ##hplusroadmap
15:06 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: HEx1, Aurelius_Work, erasei, yorick
15:08 -!- superkuh [~superkuh@unaffiliated/superkuh] has joined ##hplusroadmap
15:13 -!- Josh|NH4H [~quassel@botbot.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:14 -!- Josh|NH4H [~quassel@botbot.xen.prgmr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
15:15 -!- HEx1 [~HEx@hexwab.plus.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
15:20 -!- erasei [~erasei@x.kaw.cc] has joined ##hplusroadmap
15:29 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeepkr@111.235.64.4] has joined ##hplusroadmap
15:37 -!- Darius [~quassel@207.251.103.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
15:45 -!- PatrickRobotham [uid18270@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ggolgjtfibrjnhlp] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:15 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:16 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
16:25 -!- Viper168_ is now known as Viper168
17:23 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wfaunhzruoyttgbw] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
17:27 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
17:37 -!- atomical [~atomical@209.153.22.182] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:53 -!- Act [uid89656@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mvqctjercpbjaaka] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
17:58 -!- Madplatypus [uid19957@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wtnsbraghrrrtwpi] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
18:13 -!- yashgaroth [~yashgarot@2602:306:35fa:d500:f5e0:f867:a11d:8d52] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:33 -!- nmz787_i [~ntmccork@192.55.54.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
18:33 -!- Darius [~quassel@cpe-158-222-160-123.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:38 -!- Darius [~quassel@cpe-158-222-160-123.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
18:39 -!- Darius [~quassel@cpe-158-222-160-123.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:57 -!- Jawmare [~Jawmare@unaffiliated/jawmare] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:57 -!- Jawmare [~Jawmare@unaffiliated/jawmare] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:01 -!- nmz787_i [ntmccork@nat/intel/x-wucrbifmkqrazotj] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:06 < kanzure> http://www.prutchi.com/pdf/implantable/nuclear_pacemakers.pdf
19:08 < kanzure> oh they actually implanted and used nuclear pacemakers
19:08 < kanzure> huh..
19:10 -!- Madars [~null@unaffiliated/madars] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:11 < kanzure> i wonder who those nuclear pacemaker recipients are
19:11 < kanzure> "no make mine nuclear, please"
19:12 < drethelin> heh
19:12 < drethelin> I thought the nuclear ones came first actually
19:12 < drethelin> because that was the only way to get a long-lasting battery for a while
19:12 < drethelin> before induction charging maybe?
19:13 < kanzure> looks like modern versions are just lithium-ion batteries :-/
19:13 < kanzure> no induction power transfer
19:13 -!- PatrickRobotham [uid18270@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ggolgjtfibrjnhlp] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
19:14 < nmz787_i> sup
19:14 < kanzure> just putting some plutonium dangerously close to hearts
19:14 < nmz787_i> apparently the prodigy had a new album this year
19:15 < nmz787_i> ah
19:15 < nmz787_i> word
19:16 < kanzure> i wonder if that sort of implant would make you subject to the export/commerce control rules
19:17 -!- ArturShaik [~ArturShai@31.29.7.72] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:29 < c0rw1n> my grandma had a nuclear pacemaker ^_^
19:30 -!- fleshtheworld [~fleshthew@2602:306:cf0f:4c20:5f5:7e74:eab:e025] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
19:31 -!- fleshtheworld [~fleshthew@2602:306:cf0f:4c20:5f5:7e74:eab:e025] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:47 -!- ArturShaik [~ArturShai@31.29.7.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
19:50 -!- ArturShaik [~ArturShai@31.29.7.72] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:51 -!- jtimon [~quassel@74.29.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
19:56 -!- atomical [~atomical@209.153.22.182] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
20:10 -!- PatrickRobotham [uid18270@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tbxpkveoxhqpbcdv] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:17 -!- Darius [~quassel@cpe-158-222-160-123.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:18 -!- Darius [~quassel@cpe-158-222-160-123.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:24 -!- haskel [~haskell@203.188.241.206] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:25 -!- haskel [~haskell@203.188.241.206] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:32 -!- maaku [~quassel@botbot.xen.prgmr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:41 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:50 -!- QuadIngi [~FourFire@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/fourfire] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:50 -!- yash [~yashgarot@2602:306:35fa:d500:f5e0:f867:a11d:8d52] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:53 -!- drewbot__ [~cinch@ec2-174-129-78-214.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:55 -!- Taek42 [~quassel@2001:41d0:1:472e::] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:56 -!- Daeken_ [~daeken@demoseen.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:56 -!- souljack [souljack@shell.xshellz.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:57 -!- nmz787_i [ntmccork@nat/intel/x-wucrbifmkqrazotj] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20:58 -!- blueskin1 [~blueskin@unaffiliated/blueskin] has joined ##hplusroadmap
21:00 -!- yashgaroth [~yashgarot@2602:306:35fa:d500:f5e0:f867:a11d:8d52] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
21:00 -!- drewbot_ [~cinch@ec2-174-129-78-214.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
21:00 -!- blueskin [~blueskin@unaffiliated/blueskin] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
21:00 -!- ButaTine [FourFire@cm-84.215.195.59.getinternet.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
21:00 -!- Taek [~quassel@2001:41d0:1:472e::] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
21:00 -!- andytoshi [~andytoshi@unaffiliated/andytoshi] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
21:00 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
21:00 -!- catern [~catern@catern.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
21:00 -!- bkero [~bkero@osuosl/staff/bkero] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
21:00 -!- amiller_ [~socrates1@li175-104.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
21:00 -!- souljack_ [souljack@shell.xshellz.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
21:00 -!- Daeken [~daeken@demoseen.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
21:00 -!- blueskin1 is now known as blueskin
21:00 -!- catern [~catern@catern.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
21:01 -!- bkero [~bkero@216.151.13.66] has joined ##hplusroadmap
21:01 -!- Guest802 [~socrates1@li175-104.members.linode.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
21:03 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap
21:03 -!- andytoshi [~andytoshi@wpsoftware.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
21:09 -!- Guest802 [~socrates1@li175-104.members.linode.com] has quit [Changing host]
21:09 -!- Guest802 [~socrates1@unaffiliated/socrates1024] has joined ##hplusroadmap
21:09 -!- Guest802 is now known as amiller
21:16 -!- ButaTine [~FourFire@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/fourfire] has joined ##hplusroadmap
21:17 < kanzure> why?
21:18 -!- btcdrak [uid115429@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yvkcjomrigurxopx] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
21:19 -!- Stskeepz [~cvm@boat.tspre.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap
21:20 -!- jrayhawk [~jrayhawk@unaffiliated/jrayhawk] has joined ##hplusroadmap
21:21 -!- heath_ [~heath@unaffiliated/ybit] has joined ##hplusroadmap
21:25 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: heath, jrayhawk_, amiller, Stskeeps, QuadIngi
21:26 -!- amiller_ [~socrates1@li175-104.members.linode.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
21:27 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/cryonics/rana-sylvatica/
21:28 < kanzure> phil suggests we should sequence this frog because nobody has sequenced this frog yet
21:28 < kanzure> i am willing to chip into cover those costs if someone would be willing to arrange the mundane details of actually catching a few of those
21:29 -!- jdqx_ [~jdqx@2602:306:cc94:1950:c038:c6fe:dfb5:15f9] has joined ##hplusroadmap
21:32 < kanzure> phil says he wrote a grant a few years ago to pay for this but had to justify it with various diabetes reasons... man this world sucks.
21:35 < kanzure> "my point is there is a very complex mechanism that lets it survive 2 or 3 degrees colder temperature. so the question is how valuable this is for cryopreservation; maybe a lot, since it does allow circulation to stop."
21:35 -!- btcdrak [uid115429@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ycavaifvoqdrsxim] has joined ##hplusroadmap
21:39 -!- Taek42 is now known as Taek
22:18 < kanzure> jrayhawk: secure.diyhpl.us cert expired a few days ago, could you fix?
22:22 < jrayhawk> ugh, okay
22:27 -!- drewbot__ [~cinch@ec2-174-129-78-214.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:28 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-147-166-114.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
22:49 -!- poppingtonic [~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:00 -!- haskel [~haskell@203.188.241.206] has left ##hplusroadmap ["Leaving"]
23:09 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@185.7.192.138] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:16 -!- Act [uid89656@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hqdwskczjyrckcxc] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:26 -!- yash [~yashgarot@2602:306:35fa:d500:f5e0:f867:a11d:8d52] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
23:38 -!- Darius [~quassel@cpe-158-222-160-123.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
--- Log closed Tue Nov 17 00:00:27 2015