--- Log opened Wed Dec 09 00:00:32 2015 00:23 -!- jdqx [~jdqx@2602:306:cc94:1950:c440:7949:7618:5f7a] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:41 -!- jdqx [~jdqx@2602:306:cc94:1950:c440:7949:7618:5f7a] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:41 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:43 -!- jdqx [~jdqx@2602:306:cc94:1950:9849:e5bb:a176:ae9e] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:46 -!- andares [~andares@2601:602:8f01:3150:39a4:511f:91aa:5d31] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:46 -!- andares [~andares@2601:602:8f01:3150:39a4:511f:91aa:5d31] has quit [Changing host] 00:46 -!- andares [~andares@unaffiliated/jacco] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:34 -!- andares [~andares@unaffiliated/jacco] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:38 -!- jenelizabeth [~jenelizab@cpc76802-brmb10-2-0-cust399.1-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:21 -!- jtimon [~quassel@182.239.66.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:33 < poppingtonic> http://www.nature.com/nbt/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nbt.3439.html 02:33 < poppingtonic> .title 02:33 < poppingtonic> .title http://www.nature.com/nbt/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nbt.3439.html 02:33 < yoleaux> A CRISPR-Cas9 gene drive system targeting female reproduction in the malaria mosquito vector Anopheles gambiae : Nature Biotechnology : Nature Publishing Group 02:33 < yoleaux> A CRISPR-Cas9 gene drive system targeting female reproduction in the malaria mosquito vector Anopheles gambiae : Nature Biotechnology : Nature Publishing Group 02:33 < poppingtonic> derp 03:02 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeepkr@111.235.64.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:17 -!- Madplatypus [uid19957@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rwsticrnolurzjwv] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 03:19 -!- fleshtheworld- [~fleshthew@108-240-244-194.lightspeed.frsnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:13 < FourFire> kanzure, what kinds of automated quality assurance of scientific papers have you come across? 05:14 < FourFire> at the very least, I could imagine dumping text through a parser which sees the most common word patterns which appear in crap papers but not so much in decent work 05:14 < FourFire> false positives though... 05:23 < pasky_> idk, about satoshi, it was pretty clear while reading the article that it's a fraud, but clearly wright put a lot of effort in it, especially also considering that surreal/weird/awful kleiman business, so i found the article a fun read nevertheless, just on the account of describing that - it's nice to see people actually try when faking stuff rather than just doing something low-effort ;) 05:23 -!- vortus [~v0r7u5@ccore-cardln1.ccore.mun.ca] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:25 < pasky_> about the raid, well, really - either the guy is SN, or he wants everyone to believe he is SN, so I don't see why are guys faulting gwern with possibly implicating him "unfairly" - this is totally different from the sad dorian case 05:25 < poppingtonic> FourFire: what level of accuracy would you like? 99% certainty that is crap? Are topic modeling algorithms like Latent Dirichlet Allocation good enough to support that? 05:26 < poppingtonic> btw, that's the state-of-the-art in unsupervised topic modelling so far. 05:35 < FourFire> poppingtonic, well you want to spend time reading the crap of the cop papers, so, better than 60% probability of it being crap is filter enough at first. 05:35 < FourFire> also I don't know anything about existing approaches, which why I am asking. 05:37 -!- drewbot_ [~cinch@ec2-54-162-146-81.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:37 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-23-20-172-63.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:41 < pasky_> FourFire: in what field are you reading papers so that it's not easy to distinguish them at a glance? 05:41 < FourFire> umm I'm not sure why I wrote what I did above 05:41 < FourFire> >You want to read the cream of the crop of papers, time is money. 05:43 < pasky_> when I fail at distinguishing them "at a glance", it turns out they are crap only after pretty detailed analysis of results & methods (e.g. they subsample in a clever way or there's an important "but" in the eventual applicability) 05:43 < FourFire> pasky_, from #bioinformatics > "its kind of lame how much work just gets lost in the wash now, because there are just so many papers" 05:44 < pasky_> oh right; i was just going to suggest to just read cited papers :) 05:44 < pasky_> but that doesn't help this 05:45 < FourFire> also, I don't know much about which constitues a crap paper, so it would help for me, personally, and others like me to have a decent source of papers to read. 05:45 < pasky_> the traditional way this is solved in scientific community is peer review 05:45 < pasky_> and it's still done, you know :) 05:46 < pasky_> so just isntead of reading everything on arxiv, a start would be to read proceedings of top conferences, or journals 05:47 < FourFire> what's the fastest way to familiarize onself with the scientific community in general, see how things are done (tm) and such? 05:47 < pasky_> of coruse there's plenty of false positives+negatives anyway, but it isn't a bad approximation 05:47 < pasky_> pick a problem to work on and start reading the fundamental papers and participating in discussion groups that researchers frequent 05:48 < pasky_> at least that's how i did it when i started participating in that (wrt. computer go) 05:48 < poppingtonic> FourFire: Edited volumes are key. From lukeprog (researcher at GiveWell): "If the field is large enough, there may exist an edited 'Handbook' on the subject, which is basically just a very large scholarly edited volume of review articles" 05:48 < poppingtonic> .title http://lesswrong.com/lw/5me/scholarship_how_to_do_it_efficiently/ 05:48 < yoleaux> Scholarship: How to Do It Efficiently - Less Wrong 05:49 < poppingtonic> textbooks + review articles + edited journals 05:50 < pasky_> it depends on exactly what you want to work on; if it's large enough and not *too* fast-moving, poppingtonic's suggestion is great; i guess mine was colored by the fact that i never seem to work in the large fields for whatever reason 05:51 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:51 -!- atomical [~atomical@198.58.124.27] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:56 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:57 -!- poppingtonic1 [~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:57 -!- poppingtonic [~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:57 -!- poppingtonic1 is now known as poppingtonic 06:02 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeepkr@111.235.64.4] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:21 < JayDugger> Gwern's G+ post on the subject, he claims he donated $3000 from WIRED to an anti-malarial charity, IIRC. 06:24 -!- berndj [~berndj@196-210-13-252.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:28 -!- berndj-blackout is now known as berndj 06:28 -!- jdqx_ [~jdqx@2602:306:cc94:1950:8108:5e42:9331:791e] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:30 -!- jdqx [~jdqx@2602:306:cc94:1950:9849:e5bb:a176:ae9e] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:36 < Aurelius_Work> AMF 06:42 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:43 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:47 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:50 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:03 < fenn> i retract my statement that gwern shouldn't have doxxed craig wright, on actually reading both articles it's clear he was literally asking for it 07:03 < fenn> i didn't have full information at the time i said that 07:05 < fenn> but if gwern believed that it was actually satoshi nakamoto, he shouldn't have doxxed him for the reasons stated 07:06 < fenn> but gwern shouldn't have believed it was satoshi nakamoto because of the glaring discrepancies, key metadata errors, writing style differences, and general fakability of the existing evidence 07:07 -!- Act [uid89656@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-icabobiqimksttlk] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 07:07 < fenn> fakeability*(?) 07:08 < xentrac> do you suppose he faked the pencil thing too? 07:09 < fenn> no i'm sure he has an actual life doing stuff like building supercomputers and convincing people to throw millions of dollars at him 07:09 < fenn> i mean the pencil thing is totally plausible 07:09 < fenn> i haven't looked at the blog 07:09 < xentrac> it seemed totally plausible to me too but I would have liked more recipes and photos 07:10 < xentrac> being able to automatically fabricate a pencil from raw materials would be a terrific milestone for automated fabrication 07:10 < fenn> i think this was more like the toaster project in spirit 07:10 < xentrac> like, a demonstration that the potentials in the world economy had changed 07:10 < xentrac> yeah 07:10 < xentrac> but more competent I think 07:11 < xentrac> the thing is, Thwaites did a superb bang-up job of documenting his process so that people could understand, even if he e.g. made bad choices of materials 07:11 < fenn> wasn't it his doctoral thesis or something? 07:11 -!- jenelizabeth_ [~jenelizab@cpc76802-brmb10-2-0-cust399.1-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:11 < xentrac> maybe, could be 07:12 < xentrac> actually the graphite ceramic Wright cooked up for his pencil could have made Thwaites' toaster viable 07:12 < fenn> thwaites links to this essay, "I, pencil" http://www.econlib.org/library/Essays/rdPncl1.html 07:13 < xentrac> yeah, I think that's what inspired Wright too 07:18 -!- jaboja [~jaboja@esb23.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:20 -!- PatrickRobotham [uid18270@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hchodhsvoyschkjl] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 07:48 < kanzure> "Parent comment by kanzure dated 2015-12-09 01:24:30 UTC contains what could be reasonably interpreted as a death threat. Quoted to create an enduring record in case the comment is edited. Kanzure, you should probably step back and reconsider what you're doing here." 07:50 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/SilverVVulpes/status/643474990290092032 07:50 < yoleaux> I'm just sayin', everyone that confuses correlation with causation eventually ends up dead. (@SilverVVulpes) 07:51 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-24-248-218.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:51 < kanzure> fenn: "he was asking for it" is not a good reason. 07:51 < fenn> no, on reflection, it's not a good reason at all 07:52 < eudoxia> "death threat" lmao is this guy serious 07:52 < kanzure> FourFire: for automated quality assurance, see coq 07:52 < fenn> what is the supposed "death threat"? 07:52 < Stskeeps> what bothers me is that nobody considers the person we see today, might be the result is crippling mental illness, having been much more lucid before, though. :P 07:52 < xentrac> kanzure: url? 07:52 < xentrac> Stskeeps: do you mean Gwern? 07:52 < Stskeeps> no, the whole 'this guy is the bitcoin inventor' 07:53 < xentrac> do you mean Craig? 07:53 < Stskeeps> nod 07:53 < xentrac> you can simultaneously have crippling mental illness and be quite lucid 07:53 < kanzure> FourFire: most people overestimate the cost of reading everything. it sounds like a lot of work so they estimate it as being impossible. however, there's really only ~55 million papers. 07:53 < fenn> .g convert 55 million hours to years 07:53 < yoleaux> http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/286817-32-million-hours-life 07:54 < fenn> hmm how is this supposed to work 07:54 < fenn> ~6000 years 24/7 reading 07:54 < fenn> sounds pretty impossible, especially since the number is growing faster than real time 07:54 < xentrac> depressed people and psychopaths, for example, are generally considered to have "crippling mental illness" but they think somewhat more clearly than the typical "normal" person 07:55 < kanzure> xentrac: url is https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3vzgnd/bitcoins_creator_satoshi_nakamoto_is_probably/cxsa9hs 07:55 < kanzure> re: lucidity, isn't that some kind of mental illness of its own or something 07:56 < fenn> oh i see how "gwern's gonna get doxxed and left for dead" could be interpreted as a death threat. you should probably edit that 07:56 < kanzure> ironically, that's already the edited version 07:57 < kanzure> that *is* the toned-down version 07:57 * archels doesn't see it, but probably ought to stay out of the discussion 07:57 < kanzure> "paying people to cry wolf" https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3w07lq/blockchain_scale_tests_by_alleged_satoshi_340_gb/cxs9t63 07:58 < archels> it could be interpreted as a friendly alert on a potential course of events, even 07:58 < kanzure> "This is really interesting. I mean this supercomputer exists. Some things are weird. But this guy does have some knowledge. And resources. I'm utterly confused." 07:58 < kanzure> archels: that was my intention. 07:59 < xentrac> it could be interpreted as a death threat carefully cloaked in enough plausible deniability as a friendly alert, too 08:00 < kanzure> gmaxwell tries to use reasoning and probability to talk to redditors (wat why?) https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3w07lq/blockchain_scale_tests_by_alleged_satoshi_340_gb/cxsbbjg 08:04 < kanzure> 02:46 <+sbp> kanzure: I sent this to gwern: 08:04 < kanzure> 02:46 <+sbp> — 08:04 < kanzure> 02:46 <+sbp> 10:36:15 hey. I know you're probably getting a lot of messages about this 08:04 < kanzure> 02:46 <+sbp> 10:36:21 https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/2644014/Tulip-Trust-Redacted.txt 08:04 < kanzure> 02:46 <+sbp> 10:37:00 I just thought I'd point out that I applied nullc's test to key C941FE6D in there 08:04 < kanzure> 02:46 <+sbp> 10:37:13 $ gpg --export C941FE6D | gpg --list-packets - | grep pref-hash 08:04 < kanzure> 02:46 <+sbp> 10:37:13 hashed subpkt 21 len 5 (pref-hash-algos: 8 2 9 10 11) 08:04 < kanzure> 02:46 <+sbp> 10:38:33 the date in the key is 2008-12-16, so this one has likely been backdated too 08:04 < kanzure> 02:46 <+sbp> 10:38:49 I also tested the key in https://archive.is/HWfzH and it's the same deal 08:04 < kanzure> 02:46 <+sbp> — 08:06 < fenn> which key was C941FE6D again? 08:09 < kanzure> it was from http://pgp.mit.edu/pks/lookup?search=satoshi@vistomail.com&op=index 08:10 < fenn> what is 5EC948A1 then? 08:10 < kanzure> that is a good question 08:11 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/midmagic/status/674514614772563968 08:11 < yoleaux> #bitcoin Satoshi Nakamoto: In Feb 2012 keys NOT in the global SKS key set: 1F556274 E545EB7B E23FCC2D CDD2C21C C941FE6D 5EB7CB21 0F7BD4AD (@midmagic) 08:12 < kanzure> hi midnightmagic 08:12 < fenn> so C941FE6D is just a faked key 08:12 < fenn> unless satoshi@vistomail.com is actually a time traveler 08:13 < chris_99> heh 08:15 < poppingtonic> .wa convert 55 million hours to years 08:15 < yoleaux> convert 55000000 hours to years: 6279 years; Additional conversions: 62.74 average Gregorian centuries; 6.274 average Gregorian millennia; 1.98×10¹¹ seconds; Comparisons as time: ~0.3 × time since the last glacial maximum (~20000 yr); ~220 × generation (~28 yr); Comparison as age: ~1.3 × age of the oldest living organism on Earth (bristlecone pine) (~4700 yr); Comparisons as half‐life: ~(0.083 ~1/12) × half-life of nickel-59 (2 08:15 < yoleaux> .3968×10¹² s) 08:15 < fenn> also i must point out that za3k and richard made an excellent presentation on how to generate fake keys for arbitrary 32 bit PGP fingerprints 08:15 < eudoxia> .wa 55 million hours in gigaseconds 08:15 < yoleaux> convert 55000000 hours to gigaseconds: 198 Gs (gigaseconds); Additional conversions: 1.98×10¹¹ seconds; 6274 average Gregorian years; 62.74 average Gregorian centuries; 6.274 average Gregorian millennia; Comparisons as time: ~0.3 × time since the last glacial maximum (~20000 yr); ~220 × generation (~28 yr); Comparison as age: ~1.3 × age of the oldest living organism on Earth (bristlecone pine) (~4700 yr) 08:16 < fenn> ugh i wish wolfram didn't return so much crap with each query 08:19 < poppingtonic> If there was a way, yoleaux would still need to be configured. Doesn't wolfram return a json object? 08:20 < eudoxia> i doubt it 08:20 < kanzure> fenn: could you link to that presentation? 08:21 < eudoxia> stephen wolfram has probably written his own IPC protocol and forced everyone to use it 08:21 < kanzure> wolframalpha probably returns something completely evil, like a lisp-mathjax object hybrid 08:21 < eudoxia> "it's like json only it's the seed of a cellular automaton and the number of generations you need to run it for to get the data" 08:21 < eudoxia> "the data is in TeX btw" 08:22 < kanzure> "also, i invented it. twice." 08:22 < fenn> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LZhFFm1tK0 08:22 < yoleaux> DEF CON 22 - Richard Klafter (Free) and Eric Swanson (Lachesis) - Check Your Fingerprints - YouTube 08:23 < fenn> https://defcon.org/images/defcon-22/dc-22-presentations/Klafter-Swanson/DEFCON-22-Richard-Klafter-and-Eric-Swanson-Check-Your-Fingerprints-Cloning-the-Strong-Set.pdf 08:23 < fenn> sorry it was eric, not za3k 08:24 < fenn> also https://evil32.com/ 08:25 < fenn> o 08:25 < fenn> i'm not sure if it's relevant because the full PGP block is on craig wright's page (?) 08:26 < fenn> and presumably someone has the full block for the actual satoshi@vistomail.com 08:26 < kanzure> "bitcoin needs a leader like a fish needs a bicycle" http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/37vg8y/is_the_blockstream_company_the_reason_why_4_core/crqnnni 08:29 < xentrac> eudoxia: I'd think Wolfram would pay someone else to write an IPC protocol, put his name on it, and sue them if they tried to reveal it 08:31 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:32 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:35 < fenn> ah i was using words wrong, the "fingerprint" is a longer string than a 32 bit suffix 08:37 -!- poppingtonic [~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:43 < fenn> "scallion runs on any modern GPU, old bitcoin hardware is prime" not at all surprising because hash suffix collisions is exactly how bitcoin mining works 08:46 < fenn> heh it even says in the presentation "Upload arbitrary data to keyserver (Satoshi's key)" 08:48 < fenn> which is 0x18C09E865EC948A1 (mentioned above) 08:52 -!- jaboja [~jaboja@esb23.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:53 < kanzure> i have used scallion 08:53 < fenn> http://cryptome.org/2015/11/satoshi-nakamoto-public-key.htm 08:53 < fenn> more bits 08:54 < xentrac> scallions are tasty 08:55 < fenn> it might be possible to fake even a specific 64 bit key ID if you personally own the #17 supercomputer 08:55 < fenn> (craig wright probably also has access to lots of old bitcoin mining hardware which is even better for this task) 08:55 < kanzure> i think i was using scallion to grind/mine on tor hidden service names 08:56 < superkuh> It's how I found mine. 08:56 < kanzure> something about "timeportal.onion" 08:56 < superkuh> superkuhbitj6tul.onion 08:56 < kanzure> did you just get lucky with "bit"? 08:56 < fenn> it's the machine elves speaking to us 08:57 < fenn> with their super qu-bit computers 08:57 < superkuh> Yes. But by then I had been running it 2 days. 08:57 < superkuh> Looking for lucky strikes. 08:57 < kanzure> isn't that cheating 08:57 < fenn> of course it's cheating 08:59 < fenn> i don't get why satoshi's public key block was only published in november 2015? 08:59 < fenn> shouldn't that be all over the internet by now? 09:01 < fenn> .title https://github.com/pmlaw/The-Bitcoin-Foundation-Legal-Repo/commit/fb70771a9927e04ebe5ae33c46ba6589a9703e40 09:01 < yoleaux> Reference Satoshi's PGP key by full fingerprint · pmlaw/The-Bitcoin-Foundation-Legal-Repo@fb70771 · GitHub 09:01 < kanzure> there is no evidence that satoshi nakamoto ever had a public key 09:01 < kanzure> however, this is the key most widely known as "the satoshi key" http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/bitcoin-satoshi/satoshinakamoto.asc 09:02 < fenn> why is it known as "the satoshi key" then? 09:02 < kanzure> because it's been on bitcoin.org since 2012ish 09:02 < kanzure> possibly earlier 09:02 < kanzure> http://web.archive.org/web/*/https://bitcoin.org/SatoshiNakamoto.asc 09:02 < kanzure> uh.. 2013. hm. 09:03 < kanzure> anyway, satoshi never signed anything in public, so this is all sort of moot 09:04 -!- jaboja [~jaboja@2a00:f41:3000:5821:de85:deff:fe55:967a] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:07 < fenn> his emails were never signed? 09:07 < kanzure> never ever 09:17 < atomical> That Satoshi Nakamoto guy doesn't know shit about safety razor blades. I read the Amazon reviews. 09:20 -!- Church- [~hatter@unaffiliated/church-] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:21 < Church-> Hmm, I don't remember saying that about Kurzwell... guess my mind must be going. 09:23 < fenn> is this our previous sponsor and founder of church's chicken, doctor george church? 09:23 < kanzure> Church-: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfTqXL0d9Ls&t=1m58s 09:23 < kanzure> oops wrong link 09:23 < kanzure> Church-: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_zzFRjeGRI&t=2m10s 09:24 < Church-> fenn: Correct, also the creator of Church encodings, and the lambda calculii. 09:24 < Church-> kanzure: Hmm, interesting. Danke 09:25 < kanzure> Church-: btw we have been missing the last few checks that you had written for us, i was wondering if you could take care of that? 09:26 < Church-> kanzure: Well, an embezzlement here and there. You know how it goes,. 09:26 < kanzure> huh? 09:29 < Church-> The checks weren't written, I'm keeping the money. 09:29 < Church-> augur: Yello 09:29 < augur> oh god its Church- 09:29 < augur> great basilisk what have i done to deserve this! 09:29 < kanzure> i'll ban him if he's annoying, so don't worry 09:30 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vydkzibhopufpeww] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:30 < augur> did you know that a Church Encoding is a pre-applied fold/reduce? 09:30 < augur> its true! 09:30 < Church-> Really? Interesting. 09:30 < augur> and Scott Encodings are the pre-applied case function! 09:30 < kanzure> augur: how do you know him? 09:30 < Church-> Couple of channels. 09:30 < augur> kanzure: im just joking :p 09:30 < kanzure> so you don't know him? 09:30 < augur> we're friends, from #reddit-cyberpunk mostly 09:30 < kanzure> so you do. 09:30 -!- Act [uid89656@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vaqohjnlsyrzefrc] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:31 < kanzure> very confusing 09:31 < Church-> Quite. 09:31 < augur> i do know him, i was joking about the torment 09:31 < Church-> Hmm, think I should sit down with a book on the calculii this weekend. 09:31 < augur> Church-: i can teach you! 09:39 < Church-> Hmm, I'll accept that teaching. 09:40 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-24-248-218.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:42 < maaku> fenn: as far as I'm aware, somebody uploaded a key to the mit PGP keyserver a long time ago, longer than anyone involved with bitcoin can remember 09:43 < maaku> that is, as far as I know, the only indication at all that Satoshi even used PGP 09:43 < fenn> good enough for me 09:44 < maaku> nothing ever signed, those keys never used 09:44 < kanzure> uploading a pgp key for satoshi is a pretty clever move if it wasn't satoshi's key 09:44 < kanzure> i could imagine a cypherpunk having the foresight to do that in 2010ish 09:44 < maaku> as far as we know he probably generated the keys just prior to the launch (at the timestamp indicated in the keys), then for whatever reason decided not to use them 09:45 < kanzure> well, one could argue he was using them to receive bug reports 09:45 < maaku> this is also true. i probably would have done that in his position 09:45 < kanzure> since you don't want those flying over the plaintext interwebs. 09:45 < maaku> have something available to be sent to 09:46 < kanzure> btw thanks for the kind remarks re: how my statement wasn't actually a death threat. 09:46 < kanzure> ironically, that version of the sentence in my comment was *already* the toned-down version :D 09:49 < atomical> is it really ironic? 09:57 < kanzure> yes, it's ironic because the person was saying "i am commenting and quoting this statement in case kanzure decides to edit it" 09:57 < kanzure> the irony is that i have already edited it before he quoted the statement 09:57 < kanzure> this is an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often amusing as a result 10:04 < FourFire> fenn, right, and I have, maybe 2 hours I can spend on solid reading per day 10:06 -!- jaboja [~jaboja@2a00:f41:3000:5821:de85:deff:fe55:967a] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:06 < kanzure> yeah but you don't have to read every single detail; a lot of stuff is fairly expected and can be safely skipped by glancing at the page instead of analyzing every curve of every sans serif heiroglyphic barfing instigator 10:07 < kanzure> and also, review papers often summarize huge chunks of existing literature 10:18 < fenn> yes reviews are good 10:19 < fenn> but that doesn't solve the problem of "what's new AND good" 10:20 < fenn> we're just going to have to rely on manual filtering/curating until there's good enough AGI to basically construct scientific experiments on its own 10:20 < fenn> and also understand english prose 10:20 < fenn> and connect the two skills somehow 10:22 < fenn> some sort of echo chamber like tumblr might work for keeping current in a specific field 10:25 -!- jaboja [~jaboja@erw146.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:28 < kanzure> a lot of the theoretical modeling and speculation and roadmapping stuff is sort of not published, except as single sentences at the end of papers about "future directions" 10:28 < kanzure> because nobody wants to get scooped 10:28 < kanzure> and thinking about good hypotheses and enumerating them, doesn't always look like work 10:35 < fenn> sure, currently "published" papers are 6 months behind conference posters and preprints circulated via email 10:35 < fenn> but that's just an artifact of how terrible the publishing and peer review process is 10:40 -!- |node [uid125132@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yydrbuejzjtelrrt] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:47 -!- fleshtheworld [~fleshthew@2602:306:cf0f:4c20:b85c:87c8:29c8:c2d7] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:55 < kanzure> well what i would expect to see in the scientific literature if i was to go look, would be something like "100 alternative explanations for the molecular basis of memory", but instead i just find like <5 which is somewhat absurd in my opinion. there are so many different things i could imagine, and i'm surprised that others aren't spending time writing them down...... 11:12 < kanzure> huh, these days in the logs are sort of absent? http://gnusha.org/logs/2009-01-12.log http://gnusha.org/logs/2009-01-13.log http://gnusha.org/logs/2009-01-14.log http://gnusha.org/logs/2009-01-15.log and 2009-01-16 is missing... 17 looks weird; 18 looks slightly better... hm. 11:14 < kanzure> 23:56 < genehacker> hey the dollar is the best thing we have until wuffie 11:14 < kanzure> 23:57 < fenn> genehacker: why can't we do whuffie now? 11:14 < kanzure> 23:57 < kanzure3> why can't we do no money now? 11:14 < kanzure> 23:57 < fenn> http://bitchun.org/ 11:14 < kanzure> 23:57 < kanzure3> http://bitcoin.org/ 11:14 < kanzure> 23:57 < fenn> hrm seems bitchun went downhill 11:14 < kanzure> 23:58 < genehacker> kanzure you can't get free energy, you can however steal energy from other universes 11:15 < kanzure> i guess that's how genehacker was planning to do bitcoin mining back in 2009-01-11 11:16 < kanzure> huh, you know, looking back at that, i can't help but notice ryan fugger's name in the bottom right hand side of the screenshot http://web.archive.org/web/20071020051709/http://bitchun.org/ 11:16 < kanzure> maaku: ^ 11:18 < fenn> i think bitchun was just a terrible hack of using your number of twitter followers as whuffie/money 11:20 < kanzure> strange, the link goes to krotty.livejournal.com, and fenn you linked to that livejournal back in 2008 11:20 < kanzure> (about the optimus keyboard) 11:20 < kanzure> that may have been vinay gupta's blog ??? 11:20 < fenn> optimus was designed by art lebedev studio 11:21 < fenn> it wouldn't surprise me if it were gupta's blog 11:21 < kanzure> http://gnusha.org/logs/2008-07-26.log 11:21 < fenn> krotty.livejournal.com - Joseph Petviashvili's Live Journal 11:21 < kanzure> oh. 11:21 < kanzure> and that's the bitchun.org owner. so that makes more sense. 11:23 < fenn> "In early summer '06 Joe quit his job to devote himself to the concept full time. In late August the first breakthrough came about. Joe came across an article by Donella Meadows a renowned Systems Analyst; that article is 'Places to Intervene in a System'" 11:23 < fenn> donella meadows sounds familiar too 11:24 < fenn> maybe just that stupid club of rome report 11:24 < fenn> "limits to growth" 11:25 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_leverage_points looks like basic cybernetic theory 11:28 < fenn> where did the idea of whuffie actually come from? "a peer to peer information exchange network encompassing a respect based currency awarded to people as people help people" 11:29 < fenn> surely doctorow didn't actually invent this 11:29 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vydkzibhopufpeww] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 11:33 < kanzure> maaku: this seems like something you would know 11:34 < kanzure> "Hey, Kanzure. I've been bouncing Satoshi theories off gwern for a couple years now. I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that he was genuine when he told me he had no desire to publicly reveal Satoshi should his research bare fruit. I don't think we have the full side of his story so I'll reserve my judgment for now. Anyway, after reading your reddit and hackernews responses to gwern's story, I was curious to know if you participate in any ... 11:34 < kanzure> ... trusted groups that responsibly research the subject. gwern had mentioned your name when I inquired about a better archive of the Extotpians mailing list but I regretfully never reached out to you. I should also add that I'm just a Bitcoin junkie and that I'm not interested in revealing any information to the public that hasn't already been revealed. Thanks." 11:35 < fenn> the truth is you're terrible at security :P 11:35 < kanzure> hm? 11:36 < kanzure> what exactly have i claimed was secure? 11:37 < kanzure> also, you have lots of evidence that i have deep knowledge in reverse engineering and breaking stuff. not sure why you are so quick to call that terrible :-). 11:39 < fenn> i mean in terms of keeping information confidential 11:39 < fenn> i'm not sure this is a bad thing 11:40 -!- jenelizabeth_ [~jenelizab@cpc76802-brmb10-2-0-cust399.1-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:41 < kanzure> and also, for some strange reason that i can't articulate, i seem to be capable of explaining why bitcoin seems to work. bizarre stuff. 11:41 -!- jenelizabeth_ [~jenelizab@cpc76802-brmb10-2-0-cust399.1-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:42 < fenn> maybe whuffie was based on slashdot karma 11:44 < kanzure> wasn't there some fictional thingy that it was sourced from 11:47 < kanzure> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whuffie#Similarities_to_other_stories 11:54 < kanzure> http://motherboard.vice.com/read/satoshis-pgp-keys-are-probably-backdated-and-point-to-a-hoax 11:57 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:03 < fenn> "the Original Key belonged to Satoshi, if it is even epistemologically possible to know anything about Bitcoin at this point." 12:03 < fenn> duuude 12:03 < fenn> what if we're, like, all just simulated code trying to crack bitcoin keys, man 12:06 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:06 < kanzure> that's a really surprising quote to find in a news article 12:06 < kanzure> have i fallen into some strange alternate reality where journalists know about epistemology? 12:07 < fenn> well this is a journalism-cricitism article 12:09 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeepkr@111.235.64.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:11 < FourFire> Hey, does anyone know the current annual increase in expected lifespan (bonus points if it excludes child mortality stats) ? 12:11 -!- c0rw|zZz is now known as c0rw1n 12:11 < FourFire> Average, western world, or specific countries, doesn't matter. 12:12 < kanzure> kuudes probably knows this. 12:15 < TMA> FourFire: it should be easy-ish to compute if you have a time series of mortality tables [mortality tables are very useful and hard to come by] 12:17 < fenn> The age-adjusted death rate for the United States decreased 1.1% from 2011 to 2012 to a record low of 732.8 per 100,000 standard population. 12:18 < fenn> i haven't looked at these but it's probably a good place to start: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/life-expectancy.htm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy#External_links 12:18 -!- proofoflogic [sid65184@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lxihjfwpgebsjkzf] has quit [] 12:18 -!- proofoflogic [sid65184@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gbyzeschoefwvgrb] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:20 < kanzure> cdc should be putting out death forecasts so that we know who the hell to talk with in the next week before they fucking die 12:20 < fenn> a death note? 12:21 < kanzure> that was not publicly accessible 12:21 < kanzure> "i've been on this list for 14 weeks running, never gonna die bitches" 12:21 < kanzure> hah. 12:24 < fenn> FourFire: US male life expectancy at age 25 in 1901 was 39.1 years, and in 2009 was 54.6 years so 14% increase (unitless factor calculated as years per year) 12:24 < FourFire> fenn I sort of want higher resolution than that 12:25 < FourFire> like comparing the last decade's years 12:25 < fenn> oops that was female 12:25 < FourFire> to see current trends and such 12:25 < fenn> well you're going to have to dig around in those links because i won't 12:26 < TMA> FourFire: https://www.ssa.gov/OACT/NOTES/as120/LifeTables_Body.html 12:29 < fenn> female life expectancy certainly seems to plateau at 84 according to the part of the graph with actual data, but then they project it upwards? weird 12:30 < fenn> figure 2b in that last link 12:35 < TMA> making predictions is hard. especially about the future (Niels Bohr ???) 12:36 < FourFire> Thanks for that TMA. 12:37 < TMA> FourFire: you are welcome 12:37 -!- jaboja [~jaboja@erw146.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:46 -!- vortus [~v0r7u5@ccore-cardln1.ccore.mun.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:58 < fenn> i wish i had transcripts of conversations like this https://wikileaks.org/Transcript-Meeting-Assange-Schmidt.html#688 12:58 -!- jaboja [~jaboja@erw146.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:03 < kanzure> i do that for all of the meetings at work. it's pretty great. 13:04 < kanzure> well, great also because there are very few meetings. 13:04 < kanzure> like http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/snarks/ 13:05 < fenn> most conversations aren't even recorded as audio though 13:06 < fenn> just whoosh three years go by and you can't remember it ever happened 13:06 < fenn> anyway this particular transcript is a pretty good read so far 13:07 < fenn> i feel smarter just reading it :P 13:07 < kanzure> assange was an extropian back in the day 13:22 < TMA> oh, wikileaks seem to be blocked by my provider 13:23 < fenn> TMA http://fennetic.net/irc/Transcript-Meeting-Assange-Schmidt.html 13:23 < TMA> fenn: thank you 13:24 < fenn> uh, append #688 to the url if you are specifically interested in bitcoin/namecoin 13:25 < fenn> this is mostly about political subversion and the technical aspects of publishing under harsh censorship 13:29 -!- xrr [~quassel@c21-76.uvn.zone.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:33 < TMA> there are advantages to having such transcripts. I wonder if it is feasible for ordinary nontechnical people to record their meetings and have it transcribed 13:35 < TMA> It would have to be cheap and secure enough. You probably would not like the transcript be produced by google/apple when you are from say IBM. Or if you are from _any_ research lab working on a patentable invention 13:37 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-55-151-128.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:38 < fenn> especially with "first to file" now 13:38 < fenn> what a pile of shit 13:39 < fenn> i don't have $10k to blow on every half baked idea that might turn out to be useful some day 13:40 < fenn> at the same time, with ad-hoc research groups like this one, it's not even clear who deserves to have their name on a patent 13:40 < kanzure> my patent reform proposal https://groups.google.com/d/msg/openmanufacturing/vS4ju1VqXb0/jD_TZ8U47b4J 13:40 < fenn> i'd be in favor of a simple "intellectual property tax" 13:41 < fenn> whereby you have compulsory licensing at your stated valuation, and are taxed at that valuation 13:41 < fenn> also i hate google groups' website and can't be arsed to defuxx their hash 13:41 < kanzure> ah so now you need "intellectual tax assessors" 13:41 < fenn> no, it's a declared value 13:41 < fenn> state the value of your invention 13:41 < kanzure> here is copy-paste of the patent reform proposal from that last link http://pastebin.com/TCvVGBhN 13:42 < fenn> thank you 13:42 -!- jaboja [~jaboja@erw146.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:44 < fenn> i'm just going to mentally s/advisor/wizard/ and s/technology/magic/ from now on 13:46 < fenn> za3k has this crazy idea that you can actually get people to state their honest valuation of something by using a second-highest bidder auction system 13:46 < fenn> that the incentives line up such that people will provide the maximum number of dollars they'd pay to have a thing 13:47 < fenn> ebay implements this bidding scheme 13:47 < kanzure> auction house corruption is known problem, need private information bidding, probably encryption or two-step phased release thingy. this is the sort of crypto that adam3us is good at making up. 13:47 < TMA> I like the idea behind patents: "reveal your secret in exchange for a limited monopoly on said secret" -- if there is no secret, there is no possibility for granting a monopoly 13:48 < kanzure> hahah 13:48 < TMA> however, in practise, most patents reveal no secrets 13:48 < fenn> but in practice there is no secret, it's just "do the thing that is obvious to everyone working on the problem" 13:48 < fenn> and whoever has the most lawyers wins 13:48 < TMA> that's the broken part :) 13:48 < fenn> see makerbot vs fenn 2011 13:48 < kanzure> the problem is that this has a stifling effect on innovation 13:49 < kanzure> they can have their monopolies, but they have to get their dirty paws off of my tech. 13:49 < fenn> what is a monopoly then? 13:50 < kanzure> centralization direct or side effect 13:50 < fenn> in medieval times "grants of monopoly" were common and expected benefits of large companies' bargaining power with the king/noble/whatever 13:51 < TMA> fenn: I like your idea that you are taxed on your declared valuation. 13:51 < kanzure> "If I were to try to guess and hand-wave at it: There are many things in the world where you can show that there, in theory, exist small monopoly pressures... but no monopoly has yet formed. Maybe in all these cases after sufficiently long (maybe millions of years, assuming the economy was stationary that long) they'd form. I think we could probably say that a given amount of centralization bias implies a certain amount of ... 13:51 < kanzure> ... instantaneous "time until monopoly", but so long as the state of the world and all the influencing factors is not substantially stable on that timescale then the monopoly won't ever form. A small bias might shift things in your favor, but then some upset happens and then they're shifting in someone elses favor." ( https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3uz0im/eli5_if_large_blocks_hurt_miners_with_slow/cxkrygn ) 13:52 < kanzure> economies of scale and attention bandwidth; the king is not going to have time to grant "monopolies" to a billion people, etc. 13:53 < fenn> gmaxwell ignores things like stable periodic attractors (and weirder ones too) 13:53 < fenn> not everything is linear gradient descent 13:54 < kanzure> when you see everything through linear gradient descent rose colored glasses, everything looks like.. well actually it's lunch time and i can't be bothered with this. 13:54 < fenn> i like that essay "I, pencil" - it really shows the magical power of people who are free to innovate 13:55 < TMA> I have read Rushkoff's "Life, Inc." He argues there (persuasively) that the corporation today is just a extension of the mediaeval/early-modern monopolies 13:55 -!- Madplatypus [uid19957@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bxklxxoovespenor] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:56 -!- jaboja [~jaboja@erw146.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:56 < fenn> many large companies existing today (ahem elsevier) are literally mediaeval/early-modern monopolies 13:57 < kanzure> ah yes the royal book binding society 13:58 < fenn> twinings tea anyone? is it tea time in texas? 14:00 < TMA> I think there is an implicit distinction made between a company and a corporation -- the former is term for group of people doing business together, while the latter is some sort of an autonomous entity (somehow it feels like corporation == post singularity AI) 14:01 < fenn> yes the shareholder agreement makes it so that a corporation has goals that none of its employees personally have 14:03 < jrayhawk> "13:48 < fenn> see makerbot vs fenn 2011" where would i go to see this 14:03 < fenn> heh not really, i don't have the energy for that crap 14:04 < fenn> but i made some forum posts about automated build platforms that got developed further by reprap people and eventually were patented by makerbot 14:04 < jrayhawk> did they actually threaten anyone with those patents 14:05 < fenn> yes there was a company selling something and they were contacted by makerbot and informed of the patent and they stopped selling them 14:05 < jrayhawk> did you give that company your posts as prior art 14:05 -!- xrr [~quassel@c21-76.uvn.zone.eu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:05 < fenn> it was an attachment for some common 3d printer like a prusa i guess 14:06 < jrayhawk> expert witnesses in patent litigation make good money; often upwards of $1000/hr 14:06 < kanzure> i believe you mean to say "technology-magic litigation" 14:07 -!- Act [uid89656@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vaqohjnlsyrzefrc] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 14:07 < kanzure> as established above 14:08 < fenn> jrayhawk: auto leveling was a different patent but same "slew of patents" http://web.archive.org/web/20140523233613/http://www.openbeamusa.com/blog/2014/5/22/stay-classy-makerbot 14:08 < fenn> 2014 huh? 14:09 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-55-151-128.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:11 < fenn> this is the automated build platform thing i was talking about http://web.archive.org/web/20150215110133/http://charlespax.com/2010/03/17/makerbot-conveyor-belt/ 14:28 < fenn> i can't find it, sorry 14:28 < fenn> it's worth noting that charles pax was not an employee of makerbot at the time of his postings 14:29 < fenn> not yet 14:29 < Aurelius_Work> hmmm 14:30 < Aurelius_Work> I remember chatting with some people about task-basis error reduction on 3d printers ages ago too 14:30 < Aurelius_Work> when I was summing up state of the art in application of control system theory to 3d printers 14:33 < fenn> uh, and also charles pax was not an employee of makerbot at the time of the patent 14:39 -!- nickjohnson [sid789@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nkgeovketbdrlzwb] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:41 -!- proofoflogic [sid65184@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gbyzeschoefwvgrb] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:46 -!- jaboja [~jaboja@erw146.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:47 * fenn sleeps 14:59 -!- Act [uid89656@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-injfkfzddglykxmd] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:05 -!- fleshtheworld- [~fleshthew@2602:306:cf0f:4c20:b85c:87c8:29c8:c2d7] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:05 -!- fleshtheworld [~fleshthew@2602:306:cf0f:4c20:b85c:87c8:29c8:c2d7] has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:07 -!- nickjohnson [sid789@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vwpkmcudsdideauq] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:23 -!- PatrickRobotham [uid18270@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bjuakhtastgzpwqt] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:24 -!- jaboja [~jaboja@erw146.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:30 -!- proofoflogic [sid65184@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dthfgbcgtpfosgvx] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:34 < kanzure> proofoflogic: hi 15:37 < proofoflogic> @kanzure I'm not even really lurking here tbh, just logging in so that I could in theory keep up 15:38 -!- namespace [~user@184.12.107.249] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:38 < kanzure> proofoflogic: lurk fodder is http://diyhpl.us/wiki/hplusroadmap and http://gnusha.org/logs/ 15:40 -!- nmz787_i [~ntmccork@134.134.139.77] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:41 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-olmblokzhbgnwwuu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:54 < proofoflogic> Fenn are you the person I met when visiting Steve Rayhawk in the summer 15:57 < jrayhawk> almost certainly 15:58 < proofoflogic> ok cool 16:01 -!- c0rw1n is now known as c0rw|zZz 16:04 < kanzure> .in 230h igem 2015 follow-up (i missed like 70% of the projects i think?) 16:04 < yoleaux> kanzure: I'll remind you on 19 Dec 2015 14:04Z 16:10 -!- c0rw|zZz_ [~c0rw1n@151.177-243-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:11 -!- nmz787_i [~ntmccork@134.134.139.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:12 < kanzure> i want some sort of metric for meetlog ideasync quality; actually, maybe i should be doing an idealog instead. 16:12 -!- c0rw|zZz [~c0rw1n@169.203-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:14 < kanzure> instead of cdc death forecasts i guess i should add my own estimates of life expectancy of others, so that i can better prioritize the soon-to-be-dead. 16:17 < kanzure> i don't have as many of those assange-style conversations as i would prefer (i have far fewer), partly i attribute this to difficulty of arranging material upfront. k-means tag clustering has in the past not generated results from my meetlog data of sufficient quality for me to use as preparation work for braindumps/syncups like that. (i mean, i can do the prep work manually, but theoretically isn't this data supposed to be useful for ... 16:17 < kanzure> ... these purposes?) 16:17 -!- c0rw|zZz_ is now known as c0rw|zZz 16:19 < kanzure> more specifically, the k-means data is of such low quality that i would have had better prep work had i just sat down and thought about it for a few minutes. 16:43 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:47 < docl> "My approach to terraforming Mars is dismantling it, and making space habitats with Earth-like environments out of it. You could support about 600,000 trillion people that way, or fewer people on a really grand scale. The problem with planets is most of the useful materials are locked up inside where you can't easily get to them, and a sphere has the least surface area to live on for a given mass." -- 16:47 < docl> Dani Eder https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments/3p7zee//cw4iyae 16:49 < superkuh> Might as well just Ceres at that point. 16:49 < docl> You can sort of tell he's an Extropian by the way he says stuff like that. 16:50 < docl> Ceres is like less than 1% of the mass of Mars 16:50 < docl> It's 33% of the asteroid belt, so no small potatoes, but the asteroid belt as a whole is a tiny fraction of the mass of any of the inner planets (even Luna) 16:55 < docl> Roughly 3e21 kg for the asteroid belt, 7e22 for Luna, 7e23 for Mars. So Mars is about 10x the mass of the Moon and 200x the mass of the asteroids. Mercury is about half as massive as Mars. 16:57 -!- Madplatypus [uid19957@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bxklxxoovespenor] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 16:59 < docl> http://gnusha.org/logs/2014-10-26.log mentions dani's work on seed factories 17:02 < docl> "A teleoperated lunar factory might be doable. I guess there is a workforce problem once it starts to go exponential, but that is a good problem to have. 17:02 < docl> The reason it has not been done is likely a combination of complexity (designing a workable design would likely take a fair number of aerospace engineers) and the tendency to go for tried-and-true not too visionary space projects over the past 30 years. That might of course change now with the upstart private space projects." -- Anders Sandberg https://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/3l1jqs//cv2ld 17:02 < docl> kn 17:02 < docl> https://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/3l1jqs//cv2ldkn 17:08 < docl> Thing is, I'm not totally sure it is really worth developing a complex industrial toolchain for space like the one used today (as reflected in the pencil essay). Since energy is not scarce, it might be more worth while to use a scaled-up mass spectrometer type device like Freitas Atomic Separator Replicator, which eats basically anything and spits out basically anything. http://www.molecularassembler.c 17:08 < docl> om/KSRM/3.14.htm 17:08 < docl> Argh, is there an irssi setting to prevent it from mangling links? http://www.molecularassembler.com/KSRM/3.14.htm 17:17 -!- night [~Adifex@unaffiliated/adifex] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:19 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:21 -!- nmz787_i [~ntmccork@134.134.137.75] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:22 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:36 -!- Madplatypus [uid19957@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-obscowtsvjoysobx] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:36 < kanzure> some journos are pestering me about gwern, suggested talking points? 17:38 < docl> He writes about nootropics and does double blind tests on himself. He has followed bitcoin from the early days. 17:38 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-55-151-128.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:39 < kanzure> why would i want to mention any of that? 17:39 < kanzure> that has nothing to do with his misbehavior 17:40 < kanzure> geeze https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1thnq3/i_am_not_satoshi_nakamoto_please_stop_trying_to/ce882bz?context=3 17:40 < docl> He relies more on irc as a social outlet than most people do, partly due to hearing impairment. (I think he mentioned that when he objected to someone posting logs on lesswrong.) 17:41 < kanzure> that's also completely irrelevant. wtf. 17:43 < docl> You want talking points about the doxxing thing specifically? 17:44 < kanzure> i want talking points about why it's important to not have nyms shitting over society 17:44 < kanzure> ruins nyms for the rest of us 17:47 < Jawmare> he sounds cuntish 17:47 < docl> https://www.google.com/search?q=anonymity+and+behavior lots of news articles about this already. 17:47 < eudoxia> >I do not go public on YouTube and bloviate in a long video about who I think Satoshi 17:47 < eudoxia> lmao 17:49 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-olmblokzhbgnwwuu] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 18:00 < docl> Well, this is distinct from ordinary trolling. gwern built up a substantial reputation under that nym, so his random speculation is more-than-usually likely to be taken seriously. The lack of direct personal repercussions is potentially still a factor in what he chooses to say and how far he goes, though. 18:02 < nmz787_i> .ud doxxing 18:02 < yoleaux> nmz787_i: Sorry: that command is a web-service, but it didn't respond in plain text. 18:02 < docl> There is also the question of whether we want journalists to sometimes take smart sounding nyms seriously, or whether that is too exploitable to be generally considered okay. We could picture someone setting up a bunch of gwern-like identities for the express purpose of strategically faking news stories. 18:03 < kanzure> wow that was the dumbest conversation i've ever had 18:03 < kanzure> "so other than all of this damning evidence that they got it wrong, is there anything you saw that makes you think yes?" wtf 18:03 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:03 < nmz787_i> .g doxxing 18:03 < yoleaux> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxing 18:03 < cluckj> lol 18:04 < nmz787_i> .g nyms 18:04 < yoleaux> http://newyorkmyc.org/ 18:04 < kanzure> this is very very close to swatting 18:04 < nmz787_i> "New York Mycological Society is a 501(c)(3) not-for-profit organization dedicated to raising the public awareness of mushrooms in science, cuisine and more." sounds pretty cool 18:05 < kanzure> nym == pseudonym 18:06 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:07 < eudoxia> any reasonable person would expect this would involve at least one raid 18:07 < eudoxia> apparently he was outside Australia at the time or something 18:10 -!- PatrickRobotham [uid18270@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bjuakhtastgzpwqt] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 18:17 -!- jaboja [~jaboja@erw146.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:17 -!- jaboja [~jaboja@erw146.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:32 -!- PatrickRobotham [uid18270@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ipiijtaizrvcyill] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:35 < maaku> kanzure: jtimon might know about origins of ripple, more than me... 18:36 -!- gilbertus [~zimia@unaffiliated/gilbertus] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:42 < kanzure> maaku: but the question was whuffie origins 18:43 < maaku> i have no idea what a whuffie is 19:03 -!- jaboja [~jaboja@erw146.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:07 -!- abetusk [~abe@c-98-216-104-129.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:07 < kanzure> haha i am going to quote you on that in the future. 19:08 < kanzure> okay done 19:09 < JayDugger> Good evening, everyone. 19:12 < kanzure> re: whuffie stuff, 19:12 < kanzure> 19:11 <@gmaxwell> kanzure: the idea has existed elsewhere of course; but I'm pretty sure that name comes from DaOitMK 19:13 -!- Urchin [~urchin@89.17.7.179] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:21 -!- fleshtheworld-- [~fleshthew@2602:306:cf0f:4c20:b85c:87c8:29c8:c2d7] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:24 -!- fleshtheworld- [~fleshthew@2602:306:cf0f:4c20:b85c:87c8:29c8:c2d7] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:33 < bjonnh> yoleaux: nmz787_i: do you know the work of Paul Stamets? 19:33 -!- yashgaroth [~yashgarot@2602:306:35fa:d500:f5e0:f867:a11d:8d52] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:45 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-55-151-128.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:48 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=ed082f06 Bryan Bishop: include initial block sync slides >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/block-synchronization-time/ 20:16 -!- andares [~andares@2601:602:8f01:3150:6469:1757:9604:af86] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:16 -!- andares [~andares@2601:602:8f01:3150:6469:1757:9604:af86] has quit [Changing host] 20:16 -!- andares [~andares@unaffiliated/jacco] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:30 -!- nmz787_i [~ntmccork@134.134.137.75] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:33 -!- superkuh [~superkuh@unaffiliated/superkuh] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:33 -!- superkuh [~superkuh@unaffiliated/superkuh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:41 -!- _andares [~andares@2607:fb90:2c22:9e17:acae:4caf:eb3e:3118] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:41 -!- _andares [~andares@2607:fb90:2c22:9e17:acae:4caf:eb3e:3118] has quit [Changing host] 20:41 -!- _andares [~andares@unaffiliated/jacco] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:43 -!- andares [~andares@unaffiliated/jacco] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:49 < kanzure> bleh 20:49 < kanzure> for some reason i didn't reject this email http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011927.html 20:49 < kanzure> since it was my fault, i figured i should write the reply http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011931.html 21:51 -!- |node [uid125132@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yydrbuejzjtelrrt] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 21:53 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeepkr@111.235.64.4] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:23 -!- jdqx_ [~jdqx@2602:306:cc94:1950:8108:5e42:9331:791e] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:23 -!- jdqx_ [~jdqx@2602:306:cc94:1950:8108:5e42:9331:791e] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:28 -!- QuadIgni [~FourFire@209.95.50.100] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:32 -!- FourFire [~fourfire@81.4.122.176] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:32 -!- QuadIgni is now known as FourFire 22:32 -!- QuadIgni [~fourfire@81.4.122.176] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:40 -!- PatrickRobotham [uid18270@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ipiijtaizrvcyill] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 22:42 -!- poppingtonic [~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:59 -!- ArturShaik [~ArturShai@212.97.23.74] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:05 -!- yashgaroth [~yashgarot@2602:306:35fa:d500:f5e0:f867:a11d:8d52] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:07 -!- poppingtonic1 [~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:09 -!- poppingtonic [~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:09 -!- poppingtonic1 is now known as poppingtonic 23:34 -!- andares [~andares@2601:602:8f01:3150:6469:1757:9604:af86] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:34 -!- andares [~andares@2601:602:8f01:3150:6469:1757:9604:af86] has quit [Changing host] 23:34 -!- andares [~andares@unaffiliated/jacco] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:37 -!- _andares [~andares@unaffiliated/jacco] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:50 < kanzure> ugh 23:50 < kanzure> apparently i should have rejected that satoshi nakamoto email 23:50 < kanzure> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10709310 --- Log closed Thu Dec 10 00:00:32 2015