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02:09 -!- Topic for ##hplusroadmap: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | sponsored by lobsters everywhere, banned by the Federal Death Administration (5 times) | this channel is LOGGED: http://gnusha.org/logs | http://diyhpl.us/wiki | "ray kurzweil is a pessimist" - george church
02:09 -!- Topic set by kanzure [~kanzure@unaffiliated/kanzure] [Wed May 20 12:46:25 2015]
02:09 [Users ##hplusroadmap]
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02:09 -!- Channel ##hplusroadmap created Thu Feb 25 23:40:30 2010
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03:24 < FourFire> AdrianG, anything over 50 Mbit/s is considered fast
03:24 < FourFire> anything under 10Mbit/s is considered slow
03:35 < fenn> breaking up mars seems like a waste of a good planet, and hard to believe that the martians will let that happen
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03:35 < fenn> mercury seems like a better choice because of its proximity to the sun allows for more industry and cheaper energy
03:36 < fenn> if you are lifting astronomical quantities of mass, energy is the limiting factor
03:36 < fenn> and forming into solar reflectors etc
03:38 < fenn> generation of antimatter and exotic matter will be the largest energy market in an expansionist scenario, else running computers in a VR scenario
03:41 < fenn> antimatter or lasers for interstellar travel
03:44 < fenn> it's hard to imagine a solar system with enough meat humans to use up all of the asteroid belt and a few moons and still not have enough habitable space
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04:31 < AdrianG> fenn: why is it hard
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04:43 < JayDugger> With that many people, I (not fenn) find it hard to imagine someone wouldn't have come up with a convincing argument for self-restraint.
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05:15 < maaku> FourFire: hahahahahaah. you are for sure from scandinavia
05:16 < maaku> "under 10Mbit/s is considered slow" <--- good luck getting that in *sililcion valley* of all places
05:16 < FourFire> maaku, why is 10MBit/s fast?
05:17 < maaku> realistically 3-6Mbps is the best you can hope for in some relatively developed suburban areas
05:17 < FourFire> seriously, doesn't google fiber exist?
05:17 < maaku> in Kansas
05:17 < maaku> no, I used to live close enough to see the Google campus from the roof of my building. no google fiber.
05:17 < maaku> if theyve deployed it, it beats me where
05:18 < FourFire> Yeah, but all the important places where stuff gets done, like universities have decent internet right?
05:18 < maaku> the plus side of being in california is sub-ms latency to most services however
05:18 < FourFire> It seems so paradoxal that that country can have made so much progress for the world and still be so backwards :s
05:18 < maaku> FourFire: oh yeah of course. universities have their own dark fiber internet network
05:19 < maaku> FourFire: US of A is a big place
05:19 < FourFire> Yep
05:19 < maaku> also, entrenched interests ... we got the internet first, and those infrastructure companies have had a monopoly since. they don't profit from infrastructure improvements. more bandwidth = more costs for them
05:20 < JayDugger> Maaku has it right. USA is large and has low "overall" population density.
05:21 < rhaps0dy> >sub-ms latency
05:21 < rhaps0dy> Damn.
05:23 < maaku> then again my coworker is in downtown SF and gets uncapped 500Mbps symmetric (1Gbps total) ... so there's a lot of variance
05:23 < maaku> if you have cable you can get much faster service, but are sharing a line with a whole city block, so it depends on how much of a data hog your neighbors are
05:24 < maaku> i wouldn't want to be my neighbors
05:25 < JayDugger> The distribution is very uneven, as maaku says.
05:25 < Viper168> yeah I try not to be an asshole but that bandwidth would be mien
05:25 < Viper168> all mien
05:26 < JayDugger> That would be up to your ISP in practice. Being the first kid on your block means it is all yours, but not after everyone else signs up.
05:27 < Viper168> I mean via hogging
05:27 < Viper168> :P
05:27 < JayDugger> .wa United States population density
05:28 < yoleaux> United States: population density: 35.2 people per square kilometer (world rank: 179th) (2015 estimate); Unit conversions: 3.52×10⁻⁵ people per square meter; 91.1 people per square mile; Corresponding quantity: Area per person:: 0.011 square miles per person: 306000 square feet per person
05:28 < JayDugger> (WA sources that from the UN and the CIA.)
05:30 < JayDugger> (Varies from 9600 persons/ mile^2 to 1.1 persons / mile^2).
05:30 < FourFire> are these in any way useful: http://i.imgur.com/KYRCr5H.webm ?
05:31 < FourFire> I imagine being able to input more torque converted into more speed would be nice, but I'm uncertain
05:31 < JayDugger> That looks as if it would handle hills poorly.
05:36 < rhaps0dy> that looks electrical to me
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07:05 < FourFire> Hey, does anyone in here know how to get/make relatively cheap Class C (American)/Grade 3 (European) Hazmat suits, for clarification: it's spray resistant, with air filtration, not SCUBA
07:06 < FourFire> ?
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07:09 < cluckj> grocery bags, duct tape
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07:29 < poppingtonic> .wa 1 ounce in grams
07:29 < yoleaux> convert 1 oz (ounce) to grams: 28.35 grams; Additional conversion: 0.02835 kg (kilograms); Comparisons as mass: ~0.49 × type 1 tennis ball mass (56 to 59 g); ~0.62 × maximum golf ball mass (~1.6 oz); ~1.9 × mass of an empty 12-ounce aluminum soda can (~15 g); Corresponding quantities: Weight w of a body from w = mg:: 278 mN (millinewtons): 27801 dynes: 28 ponds: 0.062 lbf (pounds-force): 0.0019 slugf (slugs-force)
07:29 < kanzure_> .in 67min anti-yudkowsky
07:29 < yoleaux> kanzure_: I'll remind you at 16:36Z
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07:31 < poppingtonic> heh what's that
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07:41 < kanzure_> poppingtonic: well, i have been working on a formulation of why eliezer is wrong for a very long time now. since 2008ish.
07:41 < kanzure_> poppingtonic: would be good for me to write this down into words
07:43 < kanzure_> admittedly my older attempts were insufficiently strong http://heybryan.org/eli.html
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07:45 < kanzure> fooey.
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08:02 < maaku> JayDugger: actually with ATM networks like cable, being the first kid on the block/circuit means it is all yours ;)
08:06 < kanzure> i don't remember why singinst is not militant/activist against ai research.
08:10 < maaku> weren't they, for a while?
08:11 < maaku> also did you not see the movie they advised on, Transcendent or something like that?
08:11 < kanzure> nope didn't see the movie
08:11 < maaku> there was an actual anti-AI militia in that
08:11 < kanzure> given the strength of their beliefs i am not going to accept a fictional militia. i would expect an actual militia.
08:11 < kanzure> well, not necessarily a militia. i would expect at least something.
08:12 < kanzure> i would also expect them to be way more anti-transhumanist, because of the possibility of someone figuring out super nootropics or whatever
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08:14 < Diablo-D3> [02:09:15] <AdrianG> whats fast internet?
08:14 < Diablo-D3> [02:09:44] <AdrianG> 1gbit?
08:14 < Diablo-D3> aww he lft
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08:33 < pasky> kanzure: start such criticism with a summary of what you are criticizing; he's been saying many things about different topics
08:36 < yoleaux> kanzure_: anti-yudkowsky
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08:56 < JayDugger> maaku Wasn't my experience with it as a customer. I had it all until every one in the building had it.
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09:13 < kanzure> a "magic bullet / silver bullet ai with unlimited intelligence or unlimited power to transform the universe against your will" should be considered unaddressable by threat modeling because the scenario says the definition is an an unlimited (and unlimitable) threat. proposing a mathematical approach to "friendliness" doesn't make the threat suddenly addressable, even when applied voluntarily by some developer to his ai work. i suspect ...
09:13 < kanzure> ... that pervasive surveillance and world domination might reduce the likelihood of local development of ai, but even pervasive global surveillance has a non-zero failure rate (or, forms with zero failure would require world-dominating agi anyway, by which point you're back to the other (first) kind of failure mode) -- and pervasive surveillance happens to be a threat that not only is hindered by physics (difficulty of seeing ...
09:13 < kanzure> ... everything) but happens to be something that we can actually counteract in our threat models, unlike the unlimited threat definition.
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09:19 < kanzure> oh, well i guess i got the formulation wrong, it's probably more like "an unlimited threat that is unaddressable by anything except unlimitedly powerful friendliness"
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09:22 < kanzure> (e.g. "to address the unlimited threat i propose an unlimited counter-threat.")
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09:50 < kanzure> there can't be unlimitedly-powerful unlimitedly-invulnerable defense to unlimitedly-powerful unlimitedly-invulnerable threats (otherwise it's nonsense because unlimited/invulnerable becomes meaningless).
10:04 < kanzure> purpose of threat modeling has never been to offer (unlimited) level of reliability or service. high levels of (even exponentially increasing) reliability can be achieved but not provably-unlimited (even post-facto knowledge would not be enough to know whether it was unlimited). their argument next is often "well, we should achieve a mandatory global moratorium on unfriendly ai development, with extremely low moratorium failure rate" ...
10:04 < kanzure> ... (but technically all limited versions of friendliness are going to be vulnerable to unlimited threats, including those that arise from the moratorium's non-zero failure rate). next argument i remember was "well, it might buy us a few hundred years" but i'm not convinced that "unlimited threats vs. unlimited defense" is going to suddenly become meaningful in those ~200 years.
10:04 < kanzure> also, security is not about invulnerable unlimited adversaries
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10:17 < kanzure> voluntary moratoriums give false sense of security because moratorium participants can't guarantee "friendliness integrity" of a voluntary moratorium (it will fail when attacked (or even infected) by non-moratorium-developed unfriendly ai).
10:18 < kanzure> convincing everyone on earth to voluntarily join the moratorium can't work by definition, because joining has nothing to do with whether the members are actually-friendly or actually-unfriendly (e.g. same reason why limited-friendliness turns out to be technically unfriendly).
10:19 < kanzure> also, strangely enough i think a belief about friendliness would betray the privacy of someone's belief about ability to bootstrap unlimited ability from limited ability. this isn't really important, but is a curious thing to note.
10:21 < kanzure> what were my complaints about this http://multiverseaccordingtoben.blogspot.com/2010/10/singularity-institutes-scary-idea-and.html
10:24 < kanzure> hmm looks like i wasn't really listening to jrayhawk when he asked http://gnusha.org/logs/2011-07-10.log
10:25 < kanzure> other interesting points in http://gnusha.org/logs/2015-12-11.log
10:35 < Diablo-D3> what are we discussing?
10:36 < poppingtonic> how are the assumptions of decision procedures and agent behaviour incorrect?
10:38 < kanzure> re: unlimited-defense-first scenarios; 1) fails the reasonability test (can't have unlimited defense against unlimited threats), and 2) in absence of unlimited defense, an extremely low but still positive failure rate (failure as in, unfriendly ai takeoff) at best can postpone but cannot eliminate.
10:38 < kanzure> actually the metaphysics around origins of unlimited-invulnerability are quite strange in this headspace (specifically, you can (supposedly) have unlimited-defense-first bootstrapping on its own but for some reason an unlimited-threat cannot still bootstrap itself? must not have been unlimited then, huh.)
10:38 < kanzure> re: limited-defense-first scenarios: see again "can postpone but cannot eliminate" because unlimited-threat definition is stronger.
10:39 < kanzure> Diablo-D3: eh i am just writing down some criticism against eliezer yudkowsky's brand of singularitarianism
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10:43 < kanzure> re: "we should postpone as long as humanly possible, and we should get everyone to agree to this"- this is the same thing as the voluntary moratorium argument. and involuntarily moratorium (like through enforcement by unlimited-defense-first (friendly-and-is-first) ai) is rejected by the unlimited-defense-first counterargument above. ((often there have been arguments like "well you wont get friendliness right the first time when ...
10:44 < kanzure> ... deploying it!!11one" but i have chosen not to bring that up because better to assume that both sides really do mean friendliness in the argument))
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10:48 < Diablo-D3> kanzure: ahh
10:48 < Diablo-D3> dunno why everyone hates him so much lately
10:48 < Diablo-D3> hes a fiction author
10:49 < kanzure> most people dislike him because of arrogance or other stupid reasons. that's not important here.
10:50 < Diablo-D3> well, he *did* write a pretty good harry potter fanfic
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10:52 < kanzure> voluntary moratorium to postpone takeoff has lots of high costs around restriction of technology development and everyone wasting all their time trying to convince everyone to please don't open the box (or whatever the metaphor is these days), i strongly doubt "if we all believe hard enough, none of us will choose to move forward with creating unfriendly ai", especially since unfriendly ai is easier/cheaper to achieve than friendly ai ...
10:52 < kanzure> ... despite best efforts otherwise.
10:53 < Diablo-D3> se
10:53 < Diablo-D3> see
10:53 < Diablo-D3> Im of the camp that doesn't 100% believe in the singularity
10:54 < pompolic> is it probable someone would break such moratorium just to prove a point
10:55 < kanzure> Diablo-D3: i have no clue what that means. what would it mean if you did or did not "believe in a singularity"?
10:55 < poppingtonic> what's the observable consequence of that belief?
10:56 < Diablo-D3> kanzure: has it been 100% proven that such a thing will occur
10:56 < Diablo-D3> anything that could be possibly described as the singularity
10:57 < Diablo-D3> (since no one even agrees on what it'll look like, just that when it happens, we'll know)
10:57 < kanzure> i have no idea what you are trying to say.
10:58 < kanzure> are you trying to say that recursive improvement is unlikely, impossible, or that a singularity is unrelated?
10:58 < Diablo-D3> I'm saying I'm unconvinced there is a singularity, but not saying its impossible
10:59 < Diablo-D3> it is more likely that humanity continues to travel on the same path it has over the past twenty thousand years
10:59 < kanzure> so there are paths now?
10:59 < kanzure> a singularity doesn't necessarily have anything to do with humanity.
11:00 < Diablo-D3> well, everyone writes about the singularity as if its some technological thing that fundamentally changes what it means to be human
11:00 < Diablo-D3> and I'm not convinced such a thing will exist
11:00 < kanzure> sounds like nonsense
11:00 < Diablo-D3> kanzure: well, this is what I'm saying
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11:00 < Diablo-D3> the singularity _does_ sound like nonsense
11:01 < kanzure> no, what sounds like nonsense is stuff like "fundamentally change what it means to be human". that's not what the definition of a singularity is.
11:01 < kanzure> yesterday i told you to get out if you ascribe to a version of communication where words are meaningless; i was serious.
11:01 < kanzure> *subscribe
11:01 < Diablo-D3> Well, no, the definition of a singularity is a goddamned black hole. I don't know why transhumanists hijacked the word.
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11:03 < Diablo-D3> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_singularity
11:03 < Diablo-D3> That I will accept as a valid definition of singualrity
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11:03 < Diablo-D3> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_singularity
11:03 < Diablo-D3> as I will that as well
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11:03 < Diablo-D3> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity
11:04 < Diablo-D3> but stuff like that? I'm not convinced.
11:04 < kanzure> there is no reason for you to be convinced if you believe the definition of a singularity is "fundamentally change what it means to be human"
11:04 < kanzure> it's the wrong definition; if you were convinced, that would be even more alarming.
11:04 < kanzure> *even more alarming to me.
11:05 < kanzure> *convinced (by that definition),
11:05 < Diablo-D3> Well, you cant really say its the wrong definition. It is the popular definition, and the one most people use.
11:06 < Diablo-D3> I blame people like Kurzweil for that kind of thinking
11:07 < Diablo-D3> kanzure: how much scifi have you actually read?
11:07 < Diablo-D3> Its always some unlikely thing, like true AI being invented within the next 100 years, or death being cured in the next 100 years
11:08 < kanzure> the "popular" definition is about recursive improvement takeoff, not about "fundamentally change what it means to be human"
11:08 < Diablo-D3> And then it just becomes some exploration about the sociopolitical implications of such a thing
11:08 < Diablo-D3> kanzure: not really
11:08 < Diablo-D3> thats the less popular definition.
11:09 < kanzure> damn you tricked me into talking about populists
11:10 < kanzure> i don't care about populists
11:10 < Diablo-D3> kanzure: You know what I think?
11:10 < kanzure> i don't care if you are unconvinced by populist noise. why should i care about that?
11:10 < Diablo-D3> If the singularity is going to happen, it already happened.
11:10 < kanzure> you are astonishingly hard to talk with
11:11  * Diablo-D3 shrugs
11:12 < kanzure> so far the story from you is "so i heard this popular definition of a word you are using, and i wasn't convinced by it, isn't that surprising and interesting and stuff" and the answer is no- there are many misunderstandings that people have about lots of things, and i have no interest in enumerating all of their variations. additionally, this particular misunderstanding of a singularity does not seem to be accidentally insightful or ...
11:12 < kanzure> ... anything, it just seems to be a vanilla misunderstanding that doesn't help me at all.
11:13 < poppingtonic> let's taboo the word "singularity" for now and use something actually descriptive and analytical. The process under discussion right now is an AI that can analyze its own decision procedures, and discover ways to improve them, while still retaining its goal content, or the integrity of the process that maintains its goals.
11:13 < Diablo-D3> poppingtonic: that'd be useful
11:13 < Diablo-D3> singularity is like "the cloud", but for futurists
11:15 < kanzure> cloud refers to generic commoditization of increasingly-easier provisioned remote computation (and sometimes it refers to the interface to generic commodity computation, in which case it can be a "local cloud", but this becomes increasingly meaningless as you reduce the number of machines).
11:16 < Diablo-D3> kanzure: "kind of"
11:16 < kanzure> *increasingly-easily provisioned
11:16 < Diablo-D3> things like clusters have well defined meanings
11:17 < Diablo-D3> but many companies try to use them to mean "highly available shared nothing cluster"
11:17 < Diablo-D3> when most "clouds" are anything but, including the products offered by the companies that try to confuse the costumer into thinking thats what it means
11:17 < streety> or any service that isn't desktop based
11:17 < kanzure> the existence of people misusing words does not mean that words are meaningless
11:18 < Diablo-D3> kanzure: I work in this industry, trust me, it has zero meaning
11:18 < kanzure> *especially* after i have given you an exact definition
11:18 < kanzure> and so has poppingtonic
11:18 < Diablo-D3> Yes, and neither of them are industry standard definitions.
11:18 < kanzure> Diablo-D3: dude seriously, don't turn this into a dick measuring contest. i too have worked for many of the cloudiest cloudy initiatives.
11:19 < Diablo-D3> I mean, your definition basically means I can start including bare metal as a cloud service
11:19 < kanzure> ((in particular most recently i was unfortunately involved in saas for the live migration of physical and virtual machines from datacenters to 20-30 different clouds. lots of api headaches as you can imagine. i wanted to use libcloud but had to reimplement everything and more.))
11:20 < kanzure> s/live/not-quite-live
11:20 < Diablo-D3> My condolences
11:20 < kanzure> all cloud services *do* use bare metal. it's not running on hot air.
11:20 < Diablo-D3> What I meant was, the actual provisioning of bare metal for the customer
11:20 < kanzure> well it is using hot air, technically. but you know what i meant.
11:20 < Diablo-D3> As in, the customer buying a dedi
11:21 < kanzure> technically aws does let you provision dedicated boxen in their cloud, now
11:21 < Diablo-D3> Yeah, wtf is with that
11:21 < Diablo-D3> Is it just a single VM under a hypervisor?
11:21 < Diablo-D3> There is no way in hell thats real bare metal, AWS simply doesn't work that way
11:21 < Diablo-D3> *especially* for the prices they're charging for that
11:21 < kanzure> http://www.coresite.com/solutions/interconnection/amazon-web-services-direct-connect
11:22 < kanzure> "You can procure rack space within the facility housing the AWS Direct Connect location and deploy your equipment nearby. However, AWS customer equipment cannot be placed within AWS Direct Connect racks or cage areas for security reasons."
11:23 < Diablo-D3> ....
11:23 < kanzure> from https://aws.amazon.com/directconnect/faqs/
11:23 < Diablo-D3> What the fuck.
11:24 < Diablo-D3> Okay, so, I can get private transit into an AWS DC to connect to AWS services?!
11:25 < poppingtonic> Diablo-D3: right now, the sub-problem of that problem that is under investigation is the problem of reflectivity in arithmetic systems. There are a number of impossibility theorems preventing this, like Lob's theorem, which states that Peano Arithmetic (or any system that in any way encodes rules that enable Peano-like numbers) cannot assert its own soundness.
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11:26 < poppingtonic> here's Metacademy: https://www.metacademy.org/graphs/concepts/lobs_theorem
11:26 < poppingtonic> .title
11:26 < yoleaux> Metacademy
11:27 < Diablo-D3> poppingtonic: ... that is surprisingly interesting.
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11:30 < Diablo-D3> kanzure: so, literally, AWS now offers _everything)
11:30 < Diablo-D3> s/)/_/
11:31 < poppingtonic> heh i like how people assume that everyone reading irc posts has a subset  of the  awk interpreter in their brains to parse the 's' syntax.
11:32 < poppingtonic> no offense, Diablo-D3, I'm just making an observation. ;)
11:32 < Diablo-D3> don't they? ;)
11:33 < Diablo-D3> Seriously though, Direct Connect is basically direct peering with AWS over a private VLAN at a specified edge location
11:34 < Diablo-D3> like, no different than an IX, except AWS is your only peer
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12:00 < docl> My customers all intuitively understand "cloud" to mean "not physically present in my office". There is no economic incentive for me to argue the point with them, as doing so would only serve to confuse them further and extend the call.
12:02 < docl> I don't work providing these "cloud" servers, I'm just a support rep who sometimes gets asked questions about how our software can be set up. Can I put it on the cloud? Whether that's a specific physical server on a rack or a virtual server distributed over many racks does not fall in the scope of what they need to know.
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12:19 < kanzure> docl: may i ask, why support?
12:24 < docl> Not sure why I'm still doing that instead of programming. I think my employer has funny ideas about the importance of a degree. I tolerate it because he's building a cryonics org, which is where I spend most of my time (albeit doing boring desk work).
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12:33 < docl> I'm really good at support though. I can explain complicated things in simple terms, and have strong inductive reasoning skills for narrowing down and diagnosing issues.
12:43 < Diablo-D3> docl: honestly, thats basically it
12:43 < Diablo-D3> docl: cloud means "offsite, not our infra"
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13:05 < docl> I do expect to see clouds that are more literally cloud like. Swarms of small computers that interact intelligently.
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13:12 < poppingtonic> what does that mean?  a cloud system with something like Netflix's chaos monkey, efficient loadbalancing, Erlang-like server-level supervisor trees?
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13:16 < docl> Oops, I shouldn't have said "intelligently" and contributed to the dilution of that term. But yes, passing the work around efficiently. Also they can keep track of each other's physical positions and form phased array antennas for various purposes.
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13:31 < eudoxia> huh, i didn't know about oregon cryonics
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13:55 < Diablo-D3> poppingtonic: mmmm rlang
13:55 < Diablo-D3> erlang's beam vm is my favorite vm ever
13:56 < Diablo-D3> erlang as a language, verbosity wise and syntax wise, whhhhyyyyyyyy
13:56 < Diablo-D3> although where elixir is headed, I am interested
13:58 < xentrac> poppingtonic: I was amused to discover that HipChat actually interprets the s/a/b/ syntax and edits the previous log message for you in software
13:58 < Diablo-D3> xentrac: for a limited time
13:58  * Diablo-D3 uses hipchat for work, found that feature by accidnt
14:03 < poppingtonic> xentrac: gitter does it too.
14:04 < poppingtonic> I really like Elixir. Might use it for realtime/webrtc projects at work soon.
14:06 < Diablo-D3> I'm thinking about writing my next project in c# tbh
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14:13 < Proteus> It's always nice when published research reinforces my preconceptions and rationalizations while simultaneously stroking my ego: http://www.mcla.edu/Assets/MCLA-Files/Academics/Undergraduate/Psychology/Taboo%20word%20fluency%20and%20knowledge%20of%20slurs%20and%20general%20pejoratives.pdf
14:14 < kanzure> what? i thought the folk assumption was that the speaker didn't want to find other words, not that the speaker couldn't. actually, i'm confused now.
14:16 < Proteus> well, they actually do talk about resistance to produce taboo words in subjects as a possible explanation of low numbers of such words in some subjects
14:17 < Proteus> low numbers of such words produced BY some subjects, rather
14:19 < Proteus> as finals wrap up and I actually have time to catch up on diybio mailing list traffic, it's depressing just how far behind I am. My parents found out about Josiah's diy CRISPR kit before I did. At least I heard about it before my PI
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14:41 < kanzure> was that the kickstarter thingy?
14:43 < Proteus> indiegogo
14:43 < Proteus> https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/diy-crispr-kits-learn-modern-science-by-doing
14:43 < kanzure> https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/diy-crispr-kits-learn-modern-science-by-doing#/
14:43 < kanzure> hm..
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14:45 < Proteus> I've been looking at those cheap chinese knockoffs of pipetteman pipettes for a while, particularly since pipette/reagent/kit costs keep holding me up. Does anyone know how accurate they actually are?
14:46 < kanzure> ah i was thinking of the "amino" junk. (also i am not fond of people willing to shit all over a namespace like that)
14:46 < Proteus> amino junk? I'm not sure what you're referring to.
14:47 < kanzure> it's not important
14:47 < kanzure> disregard
14:47 < Proteus> done.
14:49 < Proteus> incidentally, kanzure: you're the guy that used to take minutes of the meetings between the diybio community and the FBI, correct? Is there still a number you can call if you have problems with local cops when neighbors complain about your home lab?
14:49 < kanzure> oh totally, any of the special agents are willing
14:49 < kanzure> just pick someone from the weapons of mass destruction division
14:49 < kanzure> er, hm, their phone numbers might not be public
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14:50 < Proteus> whew, ok, I'm glad that's still a thing. I seem to recall reading the minutes a few years ago and seeing a specific number mentioned
14:50 < kanzure> yeah that sounds like a good thing to know; but i don't recall that number.
14:50 < kanzure> also, they weren't minutes :-) they were exact transcripts typed in real-time.
14:51 < Proteus> I stand corrected
14:51 < kanzure> shrug
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15:30 < FourFire> so I just spent more time struggling with the arduino language, didn't get much more progress than last night, but now I have some (short) cables to play with for 6 Analogue inputs
15:31 < FourFire> How to get the most useful stuff out of dev culture without aggregating bling and merch and buzzwords and "*culture" ?
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15:56 < kanzure> maaku: you should hang out in #debian-reproducible
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16:06 < Diablo-D3> so I wonder why we don't have a channel on this network to discuss nootropics
16:07 < CautiousNarwhal> we cant just discuss that here?
16:07 < kanzure> various book things https://github.com/DIYBookScanner
16:07 < kanzure> Diablo-D3: there's #reddit-nootropics
16:07 < kanzure> but... reddit.
16:08 < Diablo-D3> yeah I saw /r/nootropics
16:08 < Diablo-D3> its ... its not good
16:08 < CautiousNarwhal> lol
16:08 < CautiousNarwhal> reddit
16:08 < Diablo-D3> cant imagine their irc channel being any different
16:08 < Diablo-D3> hey, reddit has good parts
16:08 < Diablo-D3> that isnt one of them
16:08 < kanzure> reddit does not have good parts.
16:08 < CautiousNarwhal> thats a very biased group
16:08 < CautiousNarwhal> but sometimes informative
16:08 < CautiousNarwhal> the sub i mean
16:09 < Diablo-D3> kanzure: /r/headphones is okay
16:10 < CautiousNarwhal> what kind of diy do you guuys do?
16:21 < CautiousNarwhal> what nootropics have you guys had positive experiences with?
16:23 < bjonnh> hah r/nootropics
16:35 < FourFire> Has anyone had success 3D printing the containers described in this article: http://www.statnews.com/2015/12/03/antibiotics-bacteria-research/ ?
16:37 < Proteus> CautiousNarwhal: as a molecular bio/math bio guy........you really ought to take everything in /r/nootropics as pseudoscience until proven otherwise
16:37 < Proteus> or Diablo-D3, I mean
16:42 < Proteus> CautiousNarwhal, Diablo-D3: /r/drugnerds is occasionally quite interesting if you're into biochem/pharmacology
16:43 < bjonnh> Proteus: apigenin as a nootropic my ass
16:44 < bjonnh> "Apigenin improves neuron formation, strengthens connections between brain cells" they can't be serious
16:44 < Proteus> lol
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16:45 < bjonnh> obviously people making this kind of studies didn't eat enough
16:46 < Proteus> at this point my brain just just interprets the word "nootropic" as a sort of synechdoche for 'pseudoscience'
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16:46 < bjonnh> that's not really far from that yes
16:47 < bjonnh> and what worries me, is that people that think they need nootropics believe in that. Meaning that even if they are more "efficient" they are efficient to do what?
16:47 < Proteus> exactly
16:47 < Proteus> they aren't being rigorous at any level
16:48 < Proteus> garbage in, garbage out
16:52 < CautiousNarwhal> its there is this huge control panel but you cant figure out easily how to use or move the levelers and you try something that changes a leveler and you advertise its improvement. tweaks are not improvements.
16:52 < bjonnh> Proteus: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/acs.jmedchem.5b01009
16:59 < CautiousNarwhal> efficient for increase of working-memory (ram)?
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17:00 < Proteus> bjonnh: I hadn't seen this but it's quite interesting.
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17:02 < Proteus> bjonnh: This is coming from another direction but suggests some intriguing possibilities for filtering potential therapeutic compounds    http://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10.1371/journal.pcbi.1003763
17:02 < bjonnh> Proteus: actually that's my paper ;)
17:02 < bjonnh> (the jmedchem one)
17:02 < Proteus> nice!
17:06 < CautiousNarwhal> both very interesting reads
17:07 < Proteus> These are the kinds of methodological refinements we need to improve the signal to noise ratio of bioprospecting
17:10 < bjonnh> I'm a bit surprised by the plos article
17:12 < bjonnh> do you really make sense of the abstract
17:12 < bjonnh> ?
17:14 < Proteus> pretty much, but I have a little experience with probablistic boolean network models of protein networks and quite a bit more experience with the molecular biology side of things.
17:14 < bjonnh> yeah same for me
17:16 < bjonnh> my problem here is that they are trying to infer properties from an already described model
17:18 < Proteus> well, I supposed the next step would be to follow up with a new batch of proposed/approved drugs and see how well their claims hold up
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17:22 < bjonnh> this paper use a lot of jargon
17:31 < kanzure> bjonnh: Proteus: well specifically the definition of a nootropic should be something that enables its user to design and implement either a better nootropic or at least the same level of nootropic.
17:31 < kanzure> working memory improvements would also be much appreciated.
17:31 < Proteus> I'd certainly like some working memory improvements
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17:32 < Proteus> kanzure: that's an unusual definition for 'nootropics.' That's kind of like saying you haven't created artificial intelligence until the intelligence you create invents something smarter than you.
17:35 < kanzure> no, i clearly said at least an equal-level nootropic
17:35 < Proteus> bjonnh: lol, I suppose there is a lot of jargon. Though in this case it seems less like deliberate attempt to obfuscate and more just the unavoidable consequence of needing to combine tools from the jargon-heavy disciplines of topology, computer science, and molecular biology.
17:36 < kanzure> the actual nootropic impact required to make anything remotely resembling a nootropic is actually quite low... some basic chemistry, maybe some gene expression knowledge, there's not much here yo.
17:36 < Proteus> kanzure: perhaps I'm misunderstanding - do you have a word you'd prefer to use for something that simply improves normal function above baseline? It just seems like you're setting a very high bar - or perhaps it's not you and I'm simply unfamiliar with the etymology of 'nootropic'
17:36 < kanzure> i'm not convinced it's that high
17:37 < kanzure> clearly we have people running around- without nootropics- creating small molecules that seem to have a beneficial impact (you could claim this is unrelated to the people's intelligence or whatever, which would be fair, except that people are definitely required to actually manufacture and design those drugs anyway, even if the small molecules are from prehistoric knowledge or whatever euphemism of the day is prevalent)
17:37 < bjonnh> Proteus: well I'm wondering… I've seen really really complex papers, and references to the basic pieces were there
17:39 < bjonnh> Proteus: you may be interested looking to the firn references in the j med chem paper
17:40 < bjonnh> in term of evolution and robustness this is interesting
17:42 < Proteus> out of the 123 mentioned are there any in particular you'd recommend?
17:44 < Proteus> oh
17:44 < Proteus> firn
17:45 < bjonnh> yes
17:45 < bjonnh> clearly
17:46 < Proteus> it's an odd name and my brain just filtered it out as a typo
17:50 < bjonnh> I really have doubts about this paper
17:50 < bjonnh> this network is made from signaling pathways
17:52 < bjonnh> of course they are more known if you have drugs acting on them
17:52 < bjonnh> and the opposite is true too
17:53 < bjonnh> and new drugs are likely to target new pathways, because the other ones already have drugs targetting them
17:53 < bjonnh> we usually don't need more "potent" drugs for most of the known pathways
17:54 < bjonnh> also drugs are usually developped using animals
17:54 < bjonnh> meaning that the pathways should be present in them too
17:55 < bjonnh> meaning that if we have them and animals have them, they are more highly conserved
17:56 < bjonnh> and this paper tend to show the opposite
17:58 < CautiousNarwhal> bjonnh which paper are you referring there?
17:58 < Proteus> CautiousNarwhal: http://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10.1371/journal.pcbi.1003763
17:59 < CautiousNarwhal> ah of course
18:02 < kanzure> .title
18:02 < yoleaux> PLOS Computational Biology: Robustness and Evolvability of the Human Signaling Network
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18:07 < Proteus> I actually hadn't considered biases in their dataset and I'm thinking about that now, but I'm not sure I understand why you think that this paper is getting determination of sequence conservation backwards.
18:08 < Diablo-D3> [07:21:34] <CautiousNarwhal> what nootropics have you guys had positive experiences with?
18:08 < Diablo-D3> CautiousNarwhal: I've been experimenting with rather straight forward shit
18:09 < Diablo-D3> like absurd amounts of omega 3
18:09 < Diablo-D3> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21784145
18:10 < Proteus> bjonnh: one thing I do notice is this sentence: "The attractor landscape of the original network and that of the evolvable core are very similar despite the fact that the evolvable core was obtained by removing edges whose deletion did not change the landscape of the primary attractor only."
18:10 < bjonnh> Proteus: I'm looking at it from the drug side
18:10 < Diablo-D3> like that study is about taking ~2100mg of EPA and ~350mg of DHA daily to reduce anxiety
18:11 < Proteus> I'm looking for how they went about this analytically
18:11 < bjonnh> Proteus: yeah this look more and more suspicious the more I read it
18:12 < Proteus> figuring out the determinative power of each node and deleting the maximum number of nodes without altering the attractor landscape or system behavior is a tricky problem.
18:13 < bjonnh> and the material and method doesn't explain anything
18:13 < bjonnh> "we dit it but you will never know how"
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18:14 < Proteus> well, ok, I guess if you're just looking at what doesn't alter attractors maybe it's easier. I'd like to see them find ergodic sets within the network and look at what relationships those have to the 'robust neighbors'
18:14 < kanzure> "To continue with my theme about the bias towards action, I would note the following. Suppose that one periodically samples a random variable to decide whether the correct action is to leave some situation alone, or to intervene. Assuming that one continues sampling after getting back "do nothing", but that an "intervene" decision is final, it should be clear that "intervene" will always win eventually, if the random variable has even ...
18:14 < kanzure> ... a tiny probability of coming up "intervene", even if the vast majority of the probability mass is on "do nothing". So in light of that, if one is going to continue to stand around and talk about intervening, one should probably bias further and further away from intervening as time passes, to account for the fact that eventually the coin will come up "intervene" through bad luck no matter what the correct decision is."
18:15 < kanzure> from http://lesswrong.com/lw/n0l/lesswrong_20/
18:16 < Proteus> bjonnh: it looks like that stuff is in the references. they get the network from here: http://www.pnas.org/content/105/6/1913
18:16 < bjonnh> network itself yes
18:16 < Proteus> oddly enough I know some of the people who wrote that one
18:16 < bjonnh> ok they did put the software too
18:16 < bjonnh> maybe this paper is just not really clear
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18:17 < bjonnh> I know that journal editing rules can make that…
18:20 < Proteus> I think a few things are potentially going on. 1) The community capable of combining these tools to do this work is really damn tiny. 2) mathematicians aren't always good at understanding the limitations of their models when dealing with the messy complexity of biology. Perhaps their desire for elegance and lack of experience with biological datasets biased them toward overly strong conclusions. 3) They had this really cool insight into signal
18:21 < Proteus> Honestly, when I came across it I was far more intrigued in the ability to think about distinct evolvable/robust subsets of the network
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18:22 < Proteus> oh, I didn't finish 1)  -- it's a tiny community so they assume everyone's familiar with what they're talking about already
18:24 < Proteus> I'm not convinced that they're not on to something though. I do want to think more about what biases the drug data they used could introduce.
18:28 < Proteus> One of my main interests is in trying to find ways to apply tools from mathematical biology to problems in synthetic biology but those two worlds are really bad at communicating with each other. It's frustrating.
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18:36 < kanzure> Proteus: have you seen http://diyhpl.us/wiki/dna/projects/#igem-2014
18:39 < Proteus> kanzure: I'm definitely aware of iGEM, though I hadn't seen links to the projects so nicely listed like this
18:40 < kanzure> i've been meaning to finish the 2015 list. oops.
18:41 < Proteus> yeah, I hadn't gotten to reading through them yet. So much cool stuff.
18:42 < bjonnh> Proteus: http://www.nature.com/articles/srep02223
18:42 < bjonnh> I find this one a lot more clear
18:43 < bjonnh> the introduction is really clear
18:43 < Proteus> oh right, I read this one a while ago, I forgot it was done by some of the same people
18:44 < bjonnh> (same authors)
18:44 < bjonnh> yeah
18:45 < bjonnh> but I still think there is a huge bias toward known pathways in these networks
18:46 < xentrac> so an interesting thing about topology optimization
18:46 < kanzure> .title
18:46 < xentrac> the main topopt dude, ole whatzisname, is doing things like heatsink design
18:46 < yoleaux> Discovery of a kernel for controlling biomolecular regulatory networks : Scientific Reports
18:47 < xentrac> thermodynamic and CFD FEM simulation in order to develop heatsinks that transfer heat to a cooler environment more efficiently
18:47 < Proteus> again, I wish they'd also taken an analytical approach and looked at ergodic sets within the network and looked at how those overlapped with the 'control kernel' they found using GAs
18:47 < xentrac> also fluidic valves, stuff like that
18:47 < xentrac> the heatsinks kind of look like coral
18:48 < kanzure> xentrac: i was once working for someone that was doing shape graph grammar transformations and genetic algorithm things (or A* search?) for heat sink optimization, i think.
18:49 < kanzure> hm wait. i might be wrong.
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18:49 < Proteus> A* search for heatsink optimization? I'm trying to imagine what that would entail.....
18:49 < kanzure> Proteus: over design space
18:50 < kanzure> oh hm this one is new,
18:50 < kanzure> "Layout synthesis of fluid channels using generative graph grammars" http://ir.library.oregonstate.edu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/1957/55536/CampbellMatthewMIMELayoutSynthesisFluid.pdf?sequence=4
18:51 < kanzure> so that one uses CFD but uh, i'm sure you can pretend really hard that it's FEA or heat transfer analysis
18:52 < bjonnh> I wonder if a multicell organism could be used to design such an heatsink
18:52 < xentrac> FEA is one way to do CFD
18:52 < kanzure> huh he is using parasolid and openfoam. glad he gave up on opencascade.
18:52 < xentrac> the topopt guy is generating his topologies in a much simpler way
18:52 < kanzure> oh sure, generative grammar is sort of overkill in a few cases
18:53 < xentrac> it probably allows you to scale to more complex systems
18:53 < xentrac> the topopt dude is using hundreds of CPU-years for what seem like relatively simple problems
18:53 < kanzure> "just enumerate all the possibilities, you have time for that, right?"
18:53 < gene_hacker> oh hey
18:54 < gene_hacker> the knowledge engineering paper
18:54 < gene_hacker> they also did tensegrity structures
18:54 < gene_hacker> that wasn't matt
18:54 < gene_hacker> that was a grad student and parasolid has been given up....
18:55 < kanzure> parasolid was wonky?
18:55 < xentrac> well, he's defined his design space to have hundreds of thousands of dimensions
18:55 < xentrac> so as far as I can tell he's just doing gradient optimgdescent
18:56 < bjonnh> was he able to make it?
18:57 < kanzure> gene_hacker: the thing that xentrac is looking at is http://ewp.rpi.edu/hartford/~ernesto/SPR/Thomas-FinalReport.pdf
18:57 < gene_hacker> nah, forced to switch to ACIS, but that didn't work
18:57 < kanzure> gene_hacker: two new things for you guys to try... http://solvespace.com/index.pl and http://verbnurbs.com/
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18:58 < gene_hacker> matt gave up on cad kernels, only wants to work with tesselated and voxelated data now
18:58 < kanzure> haha
18:58 < kanzure> poor guy
18:59 < gene_hacker> so what's the thing that took hundreds of CPU hours for topopt?
18:59 < gene_hacker> topopt like 2d stuff is fast, you can do it in real time almost
18:59 < gene_hacker> 3d even
19:00 < kanzure> you could probably do some gpu acceleration i guess
19:01 < gene_hacker> for optimization of solid single material structures minimizing displacement you can do it in realtime
19:02 < bjonnh> Proteus: http://www.pnas.org/content/103/44/16568.short
19:03 < bjonnh> Proteus: quick make a dietary supplement. rat brain slices proved it
19:03 < kanzure> .title
19:03 < yoleaux> Flavonoid fisetin promotes ERK-dependent long-term potentiation and enhances memory
19:04 < gene_hacker> hey xentrac who's this main topology optimization dude?
19:04 < bjonnh> it enhance the score on models of memory based on experiments on rat brain slices
19:04 < bjonnh> but these molecules don't reach brain
19:04 < bjonnh> fragments of them do however
19:04 < kanzure> xentrac: ^
19:06 < Proteus> I'm looking through those Frin papers you pointed out. Interesting stuff. I wish there was a well-organized and updated collection of 'how to think about why biological systems look the way they do' papers like this.
19:07 < bjonnh> unfortunately he died some years ago
19:07 < bjonnh> and jones doesn't seem to really follow-up on that
19:09 < Proteus> bjonnh et. al: I stumbled on this recently, looks a bit intriguing    http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/mp2015178a.html
19:11 < bjonnh> Proteus: a pill that can cure them all
19:13 < Proteus> my understanding of the background is that darpa funded a group that just screened compounds for increased hippocampal neurogenesis to see if that approach would be more successful in finding drugs to improve depression/memory
19:15 < bjonnh> at least this one seems to promote this neurogenesis
19:16 < Proteus> yeah, like I said, it's intriguing. Phase 1b results don't mean a whole lot though. Nice to see that it appears to be relatively well tolerated.
19:25 < xentrac> I was actually thinking of a video Ole whatzisname did that I watched the other night, kanzure
19:26 < xentrac> I think Thomas-FinalReport is just about minimal-compliance bracket design in 2D
19:27 < xentrac> the thing that took hours was a 3D design with simulation of convection
19:27 < xentrac> .g topology optimization ole
19:27 < yoleaux> http://www.topopt.dtu.dk/
19:28 < xentrac> Ole Sigmund
19:28 < xentrac> he mentioned offhand that they do overnight runs on ten thousand CPUs
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19:30 < maaku> kanzure: looks like an empty channel
19:31 < xentrac> I'm not even totally clear on what "compliance" is; is it just spring rate under the load they're optimizing for?  or is it something more interesting, like spring energy capacity?
19:32 < xentrac> oh, yes, it's spring rate.  or rather its reciprocal
19:32 < xentrac> this is related to what fenn and I were talking about the other night: you would think topopt would find and exploit antispring structures in order to produce giant stiffness if that is actually a thing you can do
19:36 < xentrac> but it might also be the case that the relatively simple optimization procedures people typically use (as gene_hacker points out, you can do 2D topopt for stiffness in real time) won't explore enough of the design space to find weird things like antisprings
19:36 < gene_hacker> and 3d
19:41 < xentrac> I didn't know that about 3D; maybe if your grid size is relatively coarse?
19:41 < gene_hacker> I'll have to find the program that does that
19:42 < xentrac> I watched a Midas NFX walkthrough of topopt (for compliance) this morning and it was pretty far from real time on the presenter's computer
19:42 < gene_hacker> I think this is it http://www.topopt.dtu.dk/?q=node/903
19:42 < xentrac> like, not only was it not 60fps, it was slow enough that instead of letting it finish, he canceled the process and loaded a precomputed result
19:43 < xentrac> but maybe NFX's topopt implementation is inefficient
19:44 < maaku> JayDugger: was making a technical joke... in a ring circuit like cable, the first person in the chain could exhaust all available bandwidth and there's nothing later nodes can do (except fight back by causing interferrance)
19:44 < gene_hacker> well when I played around with topology optimization in ansys, it did not take a crazy long time
19:45 < xentrac> it seems like the kind of thing that you could throw an arbitrarily large amount of computation time at in order to get a marginally better result
19:46 < xentrac> but that's probably a bad default for prepackaged software
19:46 < gene_hacker> ok yeah, I guess the above is pretty coarse
19:46 < xentrac> I have no experience with ansys
19:47 < maaku> Diablo-D3: Yudkowsky is a Luddite disguised as a transhumanist
19:47 < xentrac> the page shows that it's a bit coarse and also claims that it's slow enough that you can watch the evolution toward the optimum
19:47 < maaku> and unfortunately he's been able to rabble-rouse luddite mobs on occation, although his influence seems to be waning
19:47 < Diablo-D3> maaku: I dunno, I was exposed to him as the author of hpmor
19:47 < Diablo-D3> thats all Ill probably ever see him as
19:47 < Diablo-D3> the rest of his fiction is pretty boring
19:49 < maaku> Diablo-D3: cool. it's probably best if you restrict your knowledge of his writing to HPMoR
19:49 < gene_hacker> I just had a professor recommend that to us
19:49 < Diablo-D3> and the irony is, I'm not even a hp fan, Ive never read the books or seen the movies
19:49 < Diablo-D3> but as far as fanfiction goes, I was pretty impressed
19:50 < Diablo-D3> usually someone doesn't go an fix why I don't like a work (hp suffers from idiot character syndrome pretty badly)
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19:52 < maaku> Diablo-D3: in his non-fiction-writing day job EY rotates though the rationality circuit convincing his listeners that people like kanzure and me are going to kill all humans
19:52 < Diablo-D3> well
19:52 < Diablo-D3> if you ARE going to kill all humans
19:52 < Diablo-D3> I wish you'd do it already
19:53 < maaku> hey man killing all humans is a big job it takes time!
19:53 -!- bjonnh [~Bjonnh@unaffiliated/bjonnh] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:53 < maaku> there's a lot of you guys!
19:53 < Diablo-D3> well, thats mostly because of fucking china and india
19:53 < Diablo-D3> or rather, china and india fucking
19:53 < Diablo-D3> seriously though
19:54 < Diablo-D3> if AI or whatever monster of the week kills us all
19:54 < Diablo-D3> so be it
19:54 < Diablo-D3> we're going to kill ourselves conventionally anways
19:54 < Diablo-D3> like, we've pretty much cursed every major disease
19:54 < Diablo-D3> we've extended life pretty damned far
19:54 < Diablo-D3> yet we go waste trillions of dollars on really dumb shit, like "war"
19:55 < Diablo-D3> probably when its all said and done, and anyone is left that actually can do the math
19:55 < Diablo-D3> the total economic cost globally of the iraq/afghanistan bullshit fest is probably in the low triple digit trillions
19:55 < Diablo-D3> whatever we don't have figured out could have literally been purchased with that money
19:57 < Diablo-D3> I'm not convinced humanity should continue to exist with behavior like that
19:57 < Diablo-D3> And given our self-destructive nature, that problem may actually go and solve itself in the next 40 years.
19:58 < Diablo-D3>  /rant
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21:02 < kanzure> .title http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/mp2015178a.html
21:03 < yoleaux> Molecular Psychiatry - A Phase 1B, randomized, double blind, placebo controlled, multiple-dose escalation study of NSI-189 phosphate, a neurogenic compound, in depressed patients
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21:11 < bjonnh> kanzure: does that go to a db?
21:14 < AdrianG> lets see how well it does in the real world.
21:14 < AdrianG> hopefully would be a nice change from SSRIs
21:15 < AdrianG> Diablo-D3: low triple digit trillions?
21:15 < AdrianG> like 100 trillion dollars lol
21:15 < AdrianG> ?
21:15 < Diablo-D3> yes
21:15 < Diablo-D3> Im not even being hyperbolic about it
21:15 < AdrianG> dont be naive
21:16 < Diablo-D3> wait, do you think Im too low or too high?
21:16 < AdrianG> why would be a total negative
21:16 < AdrianG> it most likely was a positive, if anything.
21:16 < kanzure> bjonnh: hm?
21:17 < Diablo-D3> do we have a colony on mars yet? no? everything the government is currently doing is a total negative until we get that.
21:17 < Diablo-D3> seriously, I do not give a fuck about what people think are normal priorities anymore
21:17 < AdrianG> Diablo-D3: you are right. we should comandeer all resources and make everyone build rockets for mars missions
21:17 < maaku> why the mars fixation? outer solar system is where it is at
21:17 < AdrianG> and cage them if they disagree, i think thats the best way
21:18 < Diablo-D3> normal priorities is why the world is so fucked up
21:18 < Diablo-D3> maaku: thats the difference between an on site backup and an off site backup
21:18 < Diablo-D3> we don't have either
21:18 < Diablo-D3> so the argument is moot
21:18 < AdrianG> maaku: nah, we will fly to the sun of course. but at night, because the sun is too hot during days.
21:18 < Diablo-D3> AdrianG: goddamnit.
21:19 < AdrianG> Diablo-D3: you are taking life too seriously
21:19 < AdrianG> besides, you have to start practising somewhere
21:19 < AdrianG> you know how much practise with drones we got in iraq?
21:19 < AdrianG> thats accumulated knowledge we didnt have.
21:20 < Diablo-D3> okay so can drones cure cancer, aids, and male pattern baldness?
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21:22 < AdrianG> can mars base cure any of this?
21:23 < justanotheruser> captcha is out, OCR is in https://www.sciencemag.org/content/350/6266/1332.full
21:23 < justanotheruser> .title
21:23 < yoleaux> Human-level concept learning through probabilistic program induction
21:23 < Diablo-D3> AdrianG: we need that too
21:24 < AdrianG> justanotheruser: nice.
21:24 < AdrianG> how are we going to prevent bots now?
21:24 < justanotheruser> AdrianG: PoW, duh
21:24 < AdrianG> bitcoin?
21:24 < justanotheruser> PoW
21:24 < AdrianG> bitcoin is pre-canned PoW
21:24 < Diablo-D3> [PoW]
21:24 < AdrianG> otherwise you can just spam with ASICs.
21:24 < Diablo-D3> those little blocks in mario 2
21:25 < justanotheruser> captcha has always been cheaper to solve for scammers in third world countries than the average user (being that the labor is much cheaper). PoW levels the playing field.
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21:25 < CautiousNarwhal> im back
21:25 < AdrianG> equal opportunity spammers
21:26 < Diablo-D3> hah
21:26 < bjonnh> kanzure: when you do .title, does that mean that you have a database somewhere with all the links posted here?
21:27 < justanotheruser> Rather than you spending a $0.50 of your first world time entering a captcha, and a scammer spending $0.02 of some bangledishi wage slaves time, you will now be spending $0.50 doing PoW and the best the scammer can do is go to iceland
21:27 < justanotheruser> bjonnh: he does
21:28 < justanotheruser> bjonnh: gnusha.org/logs/
21:29 < kanzure> bjonnh: .title is just a way for me to avoid visiting boring links
21:29 < kanzure> 350/6266/1332.full not easy to remember which one this is, so have to ask the irc bot for a title
21:30 < CautiousNarwhal> do you just go to the logs and find .title?
21:31 < kanzure> the bot replies immediately
21:31 < kanzure> .title https://www.sciencemag.org/content/350/6266/1332.full
21:31 < yoleaux> Human-level concept learning through probabilistic program induction
21:31 < kanzure> so... no.
21:38 < CautiousNarwhal> which bot? im so lost haha
21:39 < justanotheruser> yoleaux?
21:40 < kanzure> yoleaux is a bot
21:47 < kanzure> based on phantomcircuit's assessment of hplusroadmap logs, i believe i can safely say i was the first bitcoin hater
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21:54 < CautiousNarwhal> how do you use the bot?
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22:00 < bjonnh> did you believe in bitcoin at some point?
22:03 < AdrianG> kanzure: when did you start hating bitcoin
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