--- Log opened Tue Dec 15 00:00:37 2015
00:05 < Alcyius> exams exhaust me
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00:09 < Jawmare> shit.. got some of my result back
00:09 < Jawmare> 2.0, 2.7
00:09 < Jawmare> not a good start
00:09 < Alcyius> ouch
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00:09 < Alcyius> On a 4.0 scale?
00:10 < Jawmare> yes
00:10 < Jawmare> organic chem and lab course
00:10 < Alcyius> Ochem always sucks though
00:10 < Jawmare> organic III
00:10 < Alcyius> Even the profs and assistants don't like teaching it
00:10 < Jawmare> not a required course, I took it because the lecturer was good
00:10 < Alcyius> Ah
00:11 < Jawmare> I never miss a class
00:11 < Alcyius> I ended up switching my major after I could no longer drop Calc 2
00:11 < Jawmare> for organic and quantum
00:11 < Alcyius> But got really really sick
00:11 < Alcyius> So I'm hoping to pass with a D
00:11 < Alcyius> so I don't have to pay for it
00:11 < Jawmare> 2.0 for organic.. fuck why did I even take it
00:12 < Diablo-D3> Im pretty sure
00:12 < Diablo-D3> Math isn't organic.
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00:15 < Alcyius> I'd hope not
00:16 < Alcyius> Actually
00:16 < Alcyius> Where's that smbc about how all logic are just machines and break down over time
00:16 < Jawmare> Alcyius, what major are you in?
00:17 < Alcyius> Computer Science
00:17 < Jawmare> and you want to switch into?
00:17 < Alcyius> No I was Computer Engineering
00:17 < Jawmare> stay in CE
00:17 < Alcyius> But I switched over because I can't handle the higher math
00:17 < Jawmare> you are throwing about 20k
00:17 < Alcyius> At least, not right now
00:17 < Jawmare> per year
00:17 < Jawmare> just because you can't handle the math
00:17 < Alcyius> Jawmare, actually, 0
00:17 < Alcyius> Oh
00:18 < Alcyius> In increased potential earnings
00:18 < Alcyius> Hmmmm
00:18 < Alcyius> Yeah you're right
00:18 < Jawmare> the secret to engineering math is
00:18 < Jawmare> Do past exams
00:18 < Alcyius> I'm going to start calculus over again after I have my depression handled though
00:18 < Alcyius> That's my big issue
00:18 < Alcyius> That and my chronic illness
00:18 < Jawmare> spend a tons of time to do exercises
00:23 < Alcyius> I mean logically I know that, I just have severe motivation issues
00:23 < Jawmare> I am running out of motivation too
00:24 < Alcyius> I had a brief period of self-hatred fueled motivation about 4 months ago
00:24 < Jawmare> I switched out of engineering and I am regreting about that
00:24 < Alcyius> But I've slowly been falling into the same habits since
00:25 < Alcyius> I need to schedule another appointment with my therapist and maybe try another antidepressant
00:30 < Alcyius> http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3465
00:30 < Alcyius> The dangers of progress for the sake of progress
00:38 < Diablo-D3> http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3933
00:38 < Diablo-D3> this makes my brain hurt
00:38 < Diablo-D3> make it stop
00:38 < Alcyius> hehehe
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00:39 < Alcyius> http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2595
00:41 < Alcyius> also, here's an interesting one http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20131122.png
00:52 < Alcyius> "If time travel is possible, then where are all the time travelers?" Sadly, this question goes unanswered until the 2153 global orgy
00:52 < Diablo-D3> heh
00:52 < Diablo-D3> there are no time travelers because of multiverse theory
00:53 < Diablo-D3> we're not in the branch that contains people from the future
00:53 < Alcyius> Or we are, but there's only ever one time traveler
00:53 < Alcyius> So it'd be kinda hard to notice
00:53 < Diablo-D3> well, if so
00:53 < Diablo-D3> that means they destroyed the future
00:53 < Diablo-D3> by coming to the past
00:54 < Diablo-D3> and we're all fucking boned
00:54 < Alcyius> Well, they might've only destroyed their future, and we're the offshoot timeline
00:54 < Diablo-D3> yes, but what if its a self-stable fork
00:54 < Diablo-D3> so we always destroy ourselves, but send a guy back
00:55 < Alcyius> That's a possibility
00:55 < Alcyius> There's also the Oscillating Timelines
00:55 < Alcyius> I.E., someone goes back and creates one fork, and in that fork, someone goes back and creates the original timeline
00:55 < Diablo-D3> I like to call those circles.
00:55 < Alcyius> Add steps in the chain as needed
00:55 < Alcyius> Yeah
00:56 < Diablo-D3> the hilarious thing is
00:56 < Diablo-D3> they don't actually explicitly say multiverse theory is true
00:57 < Alcyius> Or there's the Hartler idea
00:57 < Alcyius> Basically, everything bad in our timeline is the result of people trying to change it
00:58 < Alcyius> But that's a bit too preachy for my tastes
00:58 < Diablo-D3> yeah, but how do you define bad?
00:58 < Diablo-D3> I mean, I find that entire concept hilarious and most likely true
00:58 < Diablo-D3> I subscribe to the "God is a dick with a heart of dicks" viewpoint.
00:58 < Diablo-D3> The world getting worse due to interference from time travels sounds perfectly logical to me
00:59 < Diablo-D3> *travelers
00:59 < Alcyius> The idea it gave was that in Timeline A, there was Hartler, who came to power in Weimar Germany and stabilized their currency by pegging it to the USD, causing the Depression to last another 15 years
00:59 < Alcyius> A time traveler went back in time and killed Hartler, and as a result, we now have Hitler
00:59 < Diablo-D3> so... they murdered him
00:59 < Diablo-D3> yeah
00:59 < Diablo-D3> thats like
00:59 < Diablo-D3> wow
00:59 < Diablo-D3> so what happens when they went back to kill hitler?
00:59 < Alcyius> The reason you can't kill Hitler
00:59 < Alcyius> Is because something worse happens
00:59 < Diablo-D3> Okay, small question
00:59 < Diablo-D3> and anyone is allowed to answer this one
01:00 < Diablo-D3> what do you call it when you feel like you went to bed in one timeline, and awoke in another
01:00 < Alcyius> The answer is Q=13
01:00 < Alcyius> :P
01:00 < Diablo-D3> things are slightly different, but you can't quite put your finger on it
01:00 < Alcyius> Diablo-D3, some people call it Dimensional Jumping, other people call it the Berenstein effect
01:00 < Diablo-D3> its like dejavuish sorta
01:00 < Diablo-D3> so it actually has a name?
01:00 < Alcyius> Some people say its a brain malfunction
01:00 < Alcyius> Depends
01:00 < Alcyius> On whether you're actually in another timeline
01:01 < Diablo-D3> Ive been asking people randomly for years when conversations like this crop up
01:01 < Diablo-D3> no one ever gives an answer, only that they know what I mean
01:01 < Alcyius> The proper name is the Mandela Effect
01:01 < Alcyius> Named after an epidemic of people who thought Nelson Mandela died in prison in the 70s
01:01 < Alcyius> It was officially discovered when he died a few years back
01:02 < Diablo-D3> Yeah but that happens all the time
01:02 < Diablo-D3> "wait, wasnt he already dead?"
01:02 < Alcyius> Yup
01:02 < Alcyius> But this was an epidemic
01:02 < Diablo-D3> WAIT
01:02 < Diablo-D3> THE BERENSTEIN EFFECT
01:02 < Alcyius> http://mandelaeffect.com/major-memories
01:03 < Alcyius> Yup
01:03 < Diablo-D3> THE FUCKING BERENSTEIN BEARS RIGHT
01:03 < Alcyius> It's officially called The Berenstain Bears
01:03  * Diablo-D3 just fucking twitches
01:03 < Alcyius> But a large group of people, me included, remember it as The Berenstein Bears
01:03 < Alcyius> So the question is
01:03 < Diablo-D3> Yes, how the fuck did that happen
01:03 < Alcyius> Are our brains misfiring, or did a large group of people wake up one morning in an alternate reality where everything was the same except that one E was instead an A
01:04 < Diablo-D3> Theres other shit though
01:04 < Alcyius> Uhuh
01:04 < Diablo-D3> like, why the fuck is my memory of the 80s
01:04 < Diablo-D3> so much more awesome
01:04 < Diablo-D3> than it was
01:04 < Alcyius> I mean
01:04 < Alcyius> Everyone's memory of the past is better than it was
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01:04 < Alcyius> Idealized Past
01:04 < Diablo-D3> Yeah, but theres like bits and pieces of stuff I can't quite remember
01:04 < Diablo-D3> its almost there, but not
01:04 < Diablo-D3> and I go to try to find it, and I never can
01:05 < Alcyius> Well that's how the brain works iirc, you don't remember events themselves, you remember your memories of them
01:05 < Diablo-D3> Yeah, but its weird as fuck
01:05 < Alcyius> Yeah
01:05 < Diablo-D3> Because if memories are that lossy and vague, how the hell do humans even function
01:06 < Alcyius> Poorly'
01:06 < Alcyius> I mean
01:06 < Alcyius> It could be worse
01:06 < Diablo-D3> Yet, we're having this conversation
01:06 < Alcyius> Imagine being immortal with the same brain function we have right now
01:06 < Alcyius> Every 200-300 years, you start forgetting everything
01:06 < Diablo-D3> That wouldn't even be the worst thing
01:06 < Diablo-D3> The problem is
01:06 < Diablo-D3> our brains fail
01:06 < Alcyius> I mean yeah, but ideally you want a better way to store your memories
01:06 < Diablo-D3> so we literally Forget.
01:06 < Diablo-D3> with a capital F.
01:07 < Diablo-D3> And it starts happening in your mid to late 40s
01:07 < Alcyius> and yet we put people on the moon and perform nuclear fusion
01:07 < Diablo-D3> Yeah
01:08 < Diablo-D3> Like, you know how we bitch about stories not being internally consistent?
01:08 < Diablo-D3> Reality isn't internally consistent
01:08 < Diablo-D3> And I find that statement very very odd, and I'm the one that wrote it
01:08 < Alcyius> Reality is internally consistent
01:08 < Alcyius> Our perception of it is not
01:09 < Alcyius> This is almost exactly the conversation I had with my philosophy professor a month ago
01:09 < Diablo-D3> Yeah, but if we cannot perceive reality, then what is reality but what we think it is?
01:09 < Alcyius> Things happen. We're an emergent property of reality. Since we're just a part of the machine, we can't really perfectly perceive it
01:09 < Diablo-D3> Because I'm well aware how much wetware is dedicated to trying to make a coherent view of the outside world and how bad it is
01:09 < Alcyius> That's shown by the concept of ineffability
01:09 < Diablo-D3> Well, thats another problem
01:09 < Diablo-D3> what the hell *is* the universe
01:10 < Alcyius> If we COULD perfectly perceive reality, then ideas would move fluidly regardless of the language
01:10 < Diablo-D3> Like, that whole OH LOL ITS A HOLOGRAM bullshit?
01:10 < Diablo-D3> That'd actually solve a rather large number of issues
01:10 < Alcyius> So would it just being a simulation
01:11 < Diablo-D3> It being a simulation explains so much shit
01:11 < Alcyius> Like uncertainty and quantum mechanics
01:11 < Diablo-D3> Like lossy representations until we go start looking at them
01:11 < Diablo-D3> and its like LOD enhancement, but for universes
01:12 < Diablo-D3> And just all sorts of other weird un-sciencey things
01:12 < Diablo-D3> like people thinking there is more to us than what is scientifically here
01:13 < Alcyius> I'm actually dealing with a similar problem
01:13 < Alcyius> "You" is only a construct composed of the various systems of your body interacting with each other, many of them in open contention
01:13 < Diablo-D3> Like, wtf is a soul, why do all religions have a concept of it, and why is it a higher order representation of self, always?
01:14 < Alcyius> Diablo-D3, that's actually easy to answer, the idea of a soul as a higher order self makes sense from where religions formed
01:14 < Alcyius> Aka, short brutish worlds
01:14 < Diablo-D3> Yeah, but all religions?
01:14 < Alcyius> It's a survival mechanism
01:15 < Alcyius> well, there's the possibility that all modern religions are derived from a prime religion
01:15 < Diablo-D3> Yeah, but if that was true
01:15 < Alcyius> Like written langauge, recent research shows that it was only invented from scratch about 3 times
01:15 < Diablo-D3> then its likely all languages come from an original language
01:15 < Diablo-D3> which I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with that
01:17 < Diablo-D3> Alcyius: but its like, new age religions have pushed the soul into some sort of... souls wear the human existence like a hand wears a glove
01:17 < Alcyius> also, a LOT of religions are derived from Plato's World of Being idea
01:18 < Alcyius> Buddhism doesn't really have the concept of a soul, mostly cuz of the idea that everything's in flux and there's no persistent "I" or "You"
01:18 < Diablo-D3> well, buddhism is probably the correct answer if any of this is true
01:18 < Diablo-D3> you're you for as long as you're alive
01:18 < Alcyius> But they don't deny that immaterial things exist
01:18 < Alcyius> They just say that they aren't constant
01:19 < Diablo-D3> Which they probably aren't constant
01:19 < Alcyius> To be honest, the idea of a soul is probably so persistent because of how are mind is structured
01:19 < Diablo-D3> but then you get into really weird shit, like jewish mysticism that says all human souls descend from the original soul of the pre-mortal Adam
01:20 < Alcyius> Our brain works REALLY hard to give the illusion of a single, constant Self
01:20 < Alcyius> When we're not a single, constant Self
01:20 < Diablo-D3> and that eventually we'll run out of fragments of Adam's soul, and then no more people will be born
01:20 < Alcyius> We have dozens of different parts of our brain, some of which are in open contention, and then the rest of our body influencing our perception of self through the production of chemical and competition for attention from the brain
01:21 < Diablo-D3> Yeah
01:21 < Diablo-D3> And then
01:21 < Diablo-D3> The new age concept of "your subconscious is your body"
01:21 < Diablo-D3> Which isn't false in that sense
01:21 < Alcyius> Remove any one thing and you start losing who you are
01:21 < Alcyius> Which is really
01:21 < Alcyius> Weird
01:21 < Alcyius> Like, if we're going to move to computers
01:21 < Alcyius> Are we going to physics simulate our entire body?
01:22 < Alcyius> Or are we going to do that long enough to extrapolate thought patterns and such that make us who we are?
01:22 < Diablo-D3> Its because of how your brain builds a model of your body, and part of the wetware that makes your subconscious work is also part of the wetware that operates your body for you
01:22 < Diablo-D3> well, look at GITS
01:22 < Alcyius> And if we just predict what we're going to think, are we even there?
01:23 < Diablo-D3> there are cyberbrains that have no organic material left
01:23 < Alcyius> I mean, at the point we get there, there's probably going to be a constant virtual party/orgy and I'll stop asking those questions but
01:23 < Diablo-D3> and its all emulated in software
01:23 < Alcyius> For now its interesting to ponder
01:23 < Diablo-D3> see, thats another problem
01:23 < Diablo-D3> theres that thought experiment that states, if we had a button to trigger feeling good
01:23 < Diablo-D3> we'd just hold it down all day
01:23 < Diablo-D3> and just starve to death and die
01:24 < Alcyius> http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20131122.png
01:24 < Diablo-D3> well the thing is
01:24 < Diablo-D3> no, we generally won't
01:25 < Diablo-D3> some of us might, but they probably have a badly calibrated dopamine response or we
01:25 < Diablo-D3> *w/e
01:25 < Alcyius> Enter the defense mechanism
01:25 < Alcyius> Humans aren't objectively happy
01:25 < Alcyius> We're happy in comparison to other people
01:25 < Diablo-D3> We're happy in comparison to the contrast of experiences
01:25 < Alcyius> Here's the experiment
01:25 < Diablo-D3> "There is no light without shadow"
01:26 < Alcyius> I am given $100
01:26 < Diablo-D3> The problem is, for a lot of us, the universe loves to hold down the "feel like shit" trigger
01:26 < Alcyius> I have to offer you an amount between $1 and $99
01:26 < Alcyius> If you accept my offer, we both get the money, if you reject it, neither of us gets any
01:26 < Alcyius> Objectively, you should be happy with even $1
01:26 < Diablo-D3> So the logical thing is to always offer $99 and always accept the offer
01:26 < Alcyius> But subjectively, unless I offer you an equal or greater amount of money to what I'm getting, you'll reject it
01:27 < Alcyius> Because you're only happy when you're doing as well or better than other people
01:27 < Diablo-D3> Yeah, but thats not entirely true
01:27 < Diablo-D3> Because theres an entire subset of thought that happens in the inner universe that is disconnected from materialism
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01:29 < Alcyius> We're hardwired to challenge ourselves, mostly as a way of advertising our fitness as mates
01:32 < Diablo-D3> Yeah
01:32 < Diablo-D3> and
01:32 < Diablo-D3> Thats just a very very very fucking clever thing
01:32 < Diablo-D3> Its one of the few legit things the "intelligent design" weirdos use, and Im okay with them using it
01:32 < Alcyius> I mean, it's TRUE, it's just not intelligent
01:32 < Diablo-D3> You just have to sit back and just admire the cleverness of that
01:33 < Alcyius> especially because of how crappy our reproduction is
01:33 < Alcyius> But I digress
01:33 < Diablo-D3> Yeah, and I'm kind of glad how crappy it is
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01:34 < Diablo-D3> Though makes you wonder, how the hell did our species survive long enough to get here?
01:34 < Alcyius> Yeah
01:34 < Alcyius> http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=2273
01:34 < Alcyius> Though that might answer it
01:35 < Diablo-D3> I dunno, I've actually been writing somewhat weird fiction lately
01:35 < Diablo-D3> Taking all the parts I don't like, and gluing them together into one story
01:35 < Diablo-D3> I'm pretty sure if I ever finish it, clean it up, and publish it
01:35 < Diablo-D3> I'd be the richest author to ever live
01:36 < Alcyius> Perhaps
01:36 < Diablo-D3> The fact of that is the only reason why I don't release it
01:36 < Alcyius> Publish it, donate the proceeds to research in areas you like
01:36 < Diablo-D3> Yeah, but then I just end up buying Mars
01:36 < Diablo-D3> like, the whole planet
01:36 < Diablo-D3> and just move there
01:36 < Diablo-D3> and never come back
01:37 < Alcyius> I mean, the real estate's pretty cheap there
01:37 < Alcyius> But the commute is terrible
01:37 < Diablo-D3> badumtish
01:37 < Diablo-D3> But yeah, its like
01:37 < Diablo-D3> everything I ever hated about scifi
01:38 < Diablo-D3> crammed into one novel
01:38 < Alcyius> I mean you'll either be rich or no one will buy it
01:38 < Diablo-D3> or both
01:38 < Alcyius> It's the Ancestor proposition
01:38 < Alcyius> You'll either become the ancestor to all living things or none of them, given enough time
01:38 < Diablo-D3> So, the story is about a dude
01:39 < Diablo-D3> That is bill gates rich
01:39 < Diablo-D3> But is basically fed up with how fucking stupid a lot of shit is
01:39 < Diablo-D3> So he just purchases space exploration
01:39 < Alcyius> That reminds me of Donald Trump saying that we need to talk to Gates so we can close up the internet
01:40 < Diablo-D3> yeah, and trump flubbed that so bad, he should have said al gore
01:40 < Diablo-D3> then it would have been funny
01:40 < Alcyius> He also said that we have 6 million people over 112 getting social security
01:40 < Alcyius> Which, while TECHNICALLY true, it isn't really because they're just on the record as being dead
01:40 < Diablo-D3> hah
01:40 < Diablo-D3> but yeah, so
01:41 < Diablo-D3> this dude, ends up being like "we just invented a FTL test vehicle, and we're doing human trials, and I'm doing it"
01:41 < Diablo-D3> And everyone is like "no, you're not doing it, you have too many responsibilites yadda yadda yadda"
01:41 < Diablo-D3> And he does it
01:41 < Diablo-D3> And the vehicle fails
01:42 < Alcyius> This sounds a lot like Big Hero 6
01:42 < Diablo-D3> Ive never seen it, but I heard it was good
01:42 < Diablo-D3> and I thought it was about some kid that made a giant white robot?
01:42 < Diablo-D3> that hugs people
01:43 < Diablo-D3> (yes, seriously, thats pretty much all I know about it)
01:43 < Alcyius> go watch it
01:43 < Diablo-D3> I will when it finally gets on netflix
01:43 < Diablo-D3> its disney, so it'll make it there
01:43 < Alcyius> I mean, you could just go to pirate bay
01:43 < Diablo-D3> meh, too much effort
01:43 < Diablo-D3> and why should I be forced to pirate things, I pay for netflix
01:44 < Alcyius> The only reason copyright has any place after all is because innovation needs profit motivation in a capitalist society
01:44 < Diablo-D3> I literally pay them to do the "pirating" for me
01:44 < Diablo-D3> it was fun and interesting and ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWAH when I was a kid
01:44 < Diablo-D3> as an adult, Im just too damned lazy
01:44 < Alcyius> I mean, I pirate as a necessity
01:44 < Alcyius> I'm broke as fuck
01:44 < Diablo-D3> heh
01:44 < Alcyius> and I'll end up buying it EVENTUALLY
01:45 < Diablo-D3> so anyhow
01:45 < Diablo-D3> the vehicle fails
01:45 < Diablo-D3> instead of dropping out of wtfspace at mars, where hes supposed to dock with some superhuge science research vessel that is basically a catcher's mitt of sorts
01:45 < Diablo-D3> he just keeps going
01:45 < Diablo-D3> and going
01:45 < Diablo-D3> and going
01:46 < Alcyius> and then he dies alone in the void of space?
01:46 < Diablo-D3> the power reactor ftl engine whatever the hell
01:46 < Diablo-D3> is falling apart
01:46 < Diablo-D3> and hes slowly being irradiated
01:46 < Diablo-D3> and even if they do get him back, he's going to be rather cooked.
01:47 < Diablo-D3> so, eventually, the reactor powering the engine fails, he drops out of wtfspace
01:48 < Diablo-D3> and right before he dies, he sees something that should not be: a rather goddamned massive space fleet of ships that sure as hell aren't his
01:48 < Diablo-D3> and they were waiting for him
01:48 < Alcyius> Oh did humanity get to the point where they just went to where he would be
01:48 < Diablo-D3> nope
01:48 < Diablo-D3> aliens.
01:48 < Alcyius> Oh
01:48 < Alcyius> Do they invade earth?
01:48 < Diablo-D3> I actually toyed around with your idea for a bit
01:48 < Diablo-D3> tried to put him in a slow warp
01:48 < Diablo-D3> and then made an entire religion around him
01:49 < Alcyius> I'd suggest going both routes
01:49 < Diablo-D3> and then eventually catch up with him and hes like a God
01:49 < Alcyius> They're humans, but advanced to the point where they're completely alien
01:49 < Diablo-D3> well, I went the other direction
01:49 < Diablo-D3> humans dont exist
01:49 < Alcyius> they died out?
01:49 < Diablo-D3> or rather, its the most optimal form of life
01:49 < Diablo-D3> and it tends to pop up everywhere for no apparent reason until after the half way point of the book
01:50 < Diablo-D3> spoiler: the universe was created by "God", and the universe self-seeds itself to produce very specific forms of life
01:50 < Diablo-D3> No one understands how or why, because that is literally impossible
01:52 < Diablo-D3> And I'm not kidding, all planets are extremely earth like
01:52 < Diablo-D3> a lot of species are extremely familiar, just not quiiiite the same
01:53 < Diablo-D3> and humans from different planets are somehow genetically compatible; also, everything uses genetics
01:53 < Diablo-D3> (and I wasnt kidding, all the stuff Ive ever hated, all crammed into one novel)
01:54 < Diablo-D3> and captain dumbass that died flying the ftl sled into the great beyond?
01:54 < Diablo-D3> He doesn't get to die quite yet.
01:54 < Diablo-D3> That would be too easy.
01:55 < Diablo-D3> No, comes to find out, hes effectively Real Jesus.
01:55 < Diablo-D3> Every time they discover a new planet, the first guy they always encounter is a reincarnation of the same guy
01:55 < Diablo-D3> and he always ends up dying
01:55 < Diablo-D3> and being brought back
01:55 < Diablo-D3> and when they do, he starts remembering past lives
01:56 < Diablo-D3> and _that_ is the religion of the rest of the universe.
01:56 < Diablo-D3> well, the rest of however big this shit goes
01:56 < Diablo-D3> But they only ever encounter him periodically
01:57 < Diablo-D3> Since finding inhabited worlds are rare
01:57 < Diablo-D3> The church has nuns.
01:57 < Diablo-D3> The nuns? All clones of the same woman.
01:58 < Diablo-D3> An artificial project of sorts to keep track of this guy over the hundreds of thousands or whatever years they've known about him
01:58 < Diablo-D3> Every fleet has a "church", every church has one of the clones awake and operating at any given time.
01:59 < Diablo-D3> She has no official rank in the fleet, yet anything she says is done
01:59 < Diablo-D3> (thus setting up political drama if I so wish to further bury this novel in stupdity)
02:00 < Diablo-D3> The fun part is, the clones all form part of a collective, piggy backing on whatever allows the dude to do his thing
02:00 < Diablo-D3> to keep getting reincarnated or w/e
02:00 < Diablo-D3> So, killing one of the sisters isn't a useful strategy, and they collectively know everything every other sister knows or has known
02:01 < Diablo-D3> And it isn't limited to the speed of light
02:01 < Diablo-D3> Because whatever makes it function is outside of the universe and accessible from all points inside of the universe
02:01 < Diablo-D3> And that entire project? Was started by the dude in a previous reincarnation
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02:02 < Diablo-D3> And they've never been able to replicate how it works
02:02 < Diablo-D3> Alcyius: I wasnt kidding when I said
02:02 < Diablo-D3> it was bad
02:02 < Alcyius> yeah
02:03 < Diablo-D3> Every time I find an idea I hate, it goes in
02:03 < Diablo-D3> The thing is, he's not super human, not in any useful sense
02:03 < Diablo-D3> He's not smarter, or faster, or anything
02:04 < Diablo-D3> He just keeps being reincarnated, but the time between reincarnations is pretty long
02:04 < Diablo-D3> And theres no evidence anyone else is reincarnated, just him
02:05 < Diablo-D3> And certain things keep working the same way
02:05 < Diablo-D3> Like, how computers are designed
02:05 < Diablo-D3> Are always designed pretty similarly
02:05 < Diablo-D3> And religions are all pretty compatible
02:05 < Diablo-D3> And how food works, pretty similar
02:05 < Diablo-D3> And language as well
02:06 < Alcyius> Plot twist: he's the only actual living thing, he's inside a simulation and everything is similar to cut down on world generation costs
02:06 < Diablo-D3> well, this is what I was considering
02:06 < Diablo-D3> but I was going to expand that to the fact he's basically God
02:06 < Diablo-D3> and the simulation just keeps leaking through bits of his real world
02:07 < Diablo-D3> So, like, you know how in our world, theres been more than one Jesus figure?
02:08 < Diablo-D3> like, Mithras and so forth?
02:08 < Diablo-D3> Its all him
02:08 < Diablo-D3> He keeps being reincarnated as figures like that
02:08 < Diablo-D3> Teaching the same things over and over again
02:08 < Diablo-D3> Shaping society the same way over and over
02:08 < Diablo-D3> And when he finally dies the last time on that plant, when that planet joins all the others
02:09 < Diablo-D3> he just vanishes for awhile being Jesus on another planet
02:10 < Diablo-D3> or at least, isn't reincarnated as a jesus figure on that planet ever again
02:12 < Diablo-D3> the story opens up with him giving a speech to all of Earth
02:12 < Diablo-D3> after having returned with the space fleet that picked him up
02:12 < Diablo-D3> not telling anyone that hes still alive, being a sucker for "the big reveal", as he puts it
02:13 < Diablo-D3> assassination attempt happens about three sentences in
02:13 < Alcyius> heh
02:13 < Alcyius> Also
02:13 < Diablo-D3> fails because he just catches the bullet... not because hes super human, but because hes wearing a rather impressive suit of armor and it basically reacted before he was even aware of the problem
02:14 < Alcyius> AU where Ahab captured Moby Dick and had sex with it instead of killing it
02:14 < Diablo-D3> what the hell man
02:14 < Alcyius> I mean, we're on the topic of bad ideas :P
02:14 < Diablo-D3> well, like, the whole thing of adam and eve?
02:14 < Diablo-D3> completely true
02:14 < Alcyius> Your novel sounds like something I'd never read, if only because it makes me cringe too much
02:15 < Diablo-D3> adam, jesus, all the characters, same guy
02:15 < Diablo-D3> the sister collective? all clones of one of the eve's
02:15 < Diablo-D3> and she never actually dies and is reincarnated
02:15 < Diablo-D3> and shes aware of who she is, and was ordered, by him, never to reveal it to him
02:16 < Diablo-D3> and basically runs this massive empire of planets in the background
02:16 < Diablo-D3> she just makes sure it continues existing, and literally doesn't care about anything that doesn't happen over hundreds or thousands of years
02:16 < Diablo-D3> Alcyius: but yeah
02:16 < Diablo-D3> thats the point
02:16 < Diablo-D3> its supposed to be very very bad
02:17 < Diablo-D3> Im literally terrified of ever letting anyone read it
02:17 < Diablo-D3> because if that escapes somehow on to the internet
02:17 < Diablo-D3> it will cause the end of human society
02:17 < Diablo-D3> you'll have people saying they think its the best writing ever, because they're idiots
02:17 < Diablo-D3> (see twilight and 50 shades fans)
02:18 < Alcyius> Diablo-D3, if a single novel could end the world
02:18 < Diablo-D3> and then the rest of us that aren't mentally disabled.
02:18 < Alcyius> Scientologists would literally be in charge
02:18 < Alcyius> Instead of mostly in charge
02:18 < Diablo-D3> hah
02:18 < Diablo-D3> btw, the assassin?
02:18 < Diablo-D3> works for the vatican.
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02:20 < Diablo-D3> Alcyius: so, it gets even better
02:21 < Diablo-D3> he has to do his thing, but he cant stay alive for too long
02:21 < Diablo-D3> the fleet can keep him alive almost indefinitely if they needed to
02:21 < Diablo-D3> but the longer hes alive once he'd "woken up", the more he starts remembering
02:22 < Alcyius> I can feel my brain cells dying
02:23 < Diablo-D3> I know, isnt it wonderful?
02:23 < Alcyius> No
02:23 < Alcyius> I could get a better experience from heroin
02:23 < Diablo-D3> But yeah, its basically, if he remembers everything
02:23 < Diablo-D3> he'll wake up, for real
02:23 < Diablo-D3> I have no clue what'll happen if that happens
02:23 < Diablo-D3> because I didnt write that far
02:24 < Diablo-D3> but the only rightful thing is, if the dreamer awakens, the dream vanishes
02:24 < Diablo-D3> and the universe literally exists to keep him asleep
02:26 < Diablo-D3> but yeah, I dont even know why Im writing it
02:26 < Diablo-D3> its horrrrrrible
02:26 < Diablo-D3> its literally the worst fiction ever
02:26 < Diablo-D3> its so hamfisted its baaaaaad
02:30 < Alcyius> Since most devils are actually angels fallen from Heaven, they don't really have a good sense of how to torture.
02:30 < Alcyius> "My banana split doesn't have enough whipped cream."
02:30 < Diablo-D3> Alcyius: oh btw
02:30 < Diablo-D3> I considered giving him a devil
02:30 < Diablo-D3> The Master of sorts
02:31 < Diablo-D3> that exists just to throw a wrench into the works
02:31 < Diablo-D3> but that is just _too_ easy
02:31 < Diablo-D3> that fruit is too low hanging
02:34 < Alcyius> "Oh my god, you both look exactly the same, I don't know who to shoot!"
02:34 < Alcyius> (Silently, we both wondered who the hell she was)
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04:15 < Alcyius> "NASA is confused to announce that we've found life on Mars, but its just Elon Musk, somehow."
04:19 < ebowden> heh
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06:02 < Alcyius> Hm. Odd
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06:04 < chris_99> Does anyone here do computer vision per chance, i'm trying to find an idiots guide to triangulation of 2D points from N-views, opencv's cv2.triangulatePoints seems to only take two camera poses
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07:27 <@fenn> maaku> in other words, something like 40% of global GDP ... gone ... and replace with math on computers, redirecting that money elsewhere, and remove the parasitic financial structure that transfers wealth from the productive to the establishment
07:27 <@fenn> maaku could you expand on how you see this happening in the present and future?
07:28 < xentrac> iirc he was talking about Economics 2.0; I'm also interested to hear if he has a more detailed vision
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07:43 < kanzure> .title https://www.sciencemag.org/content/350/6266/1332.full
07:43 < yoleaux> Human-level concept learning through probabilistic program induction
07:47 <@fenn> that was from a few days ago
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07:54 < JayDugger> Also on Gitixiv, IIRC
07:54 < poppingtonic> That paper is really good. I've been studying their group's (MIT probabilistic computing project) progress since last year. I'm following up on their code later this evening.
07:56 <@fenn> JayDugger: gitixiv?
07:56 < JayDugger> I don't know enough Matlab to follow it, but the section on hardware requirements impressed me.
07:56 < poppingtonic> .title http://gitxiv.com/
07:56 < yoleaux> Loading...
07:57 <@fenn> meteor bullshit
07:57 < JayDugger> Yeah, a website / mailing list for CompSci papers from arxiv with source on Github.
07:57 < poppingtonic> whaaat
07:57 < JayDugger> http://gitxiv.com/posts/jS9LJ5kh9ny6iqD7Z/human-level-concept-learning-through-probabilistic-program
07:58 < JayDugger> That's the one in question.
07:58 <@fenn> well i'm not going to be using gitxiv because it's completely devoid of any content without running lots of javascript
07:58 < JayDugger> Hang on, cat is chasing the mouse cursor on screen.
07:59 < JayDugger> I think you can sign up for a mailing list version of their feed.
07:59 < poppingtonic> arxiv is the only xiv
07:59 < JayDugger> Best SF on-line, you bet.
08:00 < poppingtonic> And use it to create a non-js version of gitxiv.
08:03 < Alcyius> Anyone here know of any writing done on the role of infrastructure in Transhumanism
08:04 < Alcyius> Like arcologies and stuff
08:07 < xentrac> if not, it seems like a rather glaring lack; infrastructure is the key enabling feature of modern life, much more than education or exercise
08:08 <@fenn> i liked the book "ventus" by karl schroeder
08:09 <@fenn> also buckminster fuller and walt disney wrote a lot about infrastructure and futristic societies
08:10 <@fenn> fuller's books can be a task to decipher
08:10 <@fenn> the dymaxion stuff from the 1930s is the most approachable though
08:11 < Alcyius> Wasn't EPCOT supposed to be an evolving planned community showcasing futuristic infrastructure?
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08:11 <@fenn> there's also orion's arm, which has a list of fictional megastructures and societies http://www.orionsarm.com/page/301
08:12 <@fenn> EPCOT was supposed to be an actual city, not a museum exhibit
08:12 < Alcyius> Yeah
08:12 < JayDugger> Fuller's pre-transhumanist, though a definite influence. I read most of his stuff in high school.
08:12 <@fenn> after disney died the managers scaled back the vision considerably
08:13 < JayDugger> Paolo Soleri (sp?), who coined "arcology," if you can find his books.
08:13 < Alcyius> JayDugger, I wish I had the time to read stuff
08:13 < JayDugger> Try a college library.
08:13 < Alcyius> I'm in an Early College high school
08:13 < Alcyius> So lots of free education, little time
08:13 < JayDugger> If you're near Portland, OR, try Reed College.
08:13 < JayDugger> Their library has copies.
08:13 < JayDugger> If not, try inter-library loan.
08:13 < Alcyius> My university's library has or can get copies, and I'd be surprised if I couldn't find an online copy
08:14 < JayDugger> I'd be surprised if you could.
08:14 < JayDugger> I've looked.
08:14 < jcluck> which titles are you looking for?
08:14 < Alcyius> JayDugger, I have some friends with access to a private torrent site that focuses on books and has digital copies of some rarer books
08:14 < JayDugger> Fuller's complete papers are held by Stanford, including his chronofile (what we'd call a lifelog now)
08:14 < JayDugger> Ah...well...perhaps you can.
08:15 < JayDugger> I stand corrected.
08:15 < JayDugger> You might also find Dandrige Cole's work useful.
08:16 < JayDugger> That's also hard to find, but again your university library can probably get copies.
08:16 < Alcyius> Yeah
08:16 < JayDugger> His stuff predates "transhumanism," but is pretty openly so.
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08:16 <@fenn> i also recommend the manga "blame!" which is about having too much infrastructure
08:16 < Alcyius> fenn, is that the one with like, the solar system sized city?
08:16 <@fenn> yeah
08:17 < Alcyius> I've heard good stuff about it
08:17 < Alcyius> Had forgotten the name though
08:17 < JayDugger> Yes, And if you can't make sense of it, try Knights of Sidonia, aka "Hodgson's The Night Land on a generation starship."
08:17 < Alcyius> Isn't that the one Netflix made?
08:17 < Alcyius> I've also heard good things about that, but my ex didn't want to watch it and I just kinda never had the time to since bringing it up
08:18 <@fenn> sidonia actually is a prequel to blame, their ship is where toha heavy industries came from
08:18 < Alcyius> Interesting
08:18 < JayDugger> Man, fenn, there was another anime I was going to ask if you'd seen, but it escapes me ATM.
08:19 < Alcyius> As much as I love investment in infrastructure
08:19 < Alcyius> The work on the gas lines on my street has been ongoing for over a month
08:19 < Alcyius> And is shaking the attic
08:19 < kanzure> sidonia was sorta boring
08:19 <@fenn> yeah it was his attempt to be mainstream and formulaic
08:19 <@fenn> success :(
08:19 < kanzure> their reveals were weak though.
08:20 < JayDugger> Easy, the man's got bills to pay.
08:20 < kanzure> you think the story has built up to some awesome reveal but instead it's just more formulaic garbage following the already established story
08:20 < JayDugger> There are worse ways to sell out than to write something with a plot.
08:20 < JayDugger> But yeah, it did weaken as it went along.
08:20 < Alcyius> Are there any works without a plot?
08:20 <@fenn> the original aeon flux animated shorts
08:20 < Alcyius> I mean, plot kinda happens whenever you have connected events
08:21 < Alcyius> I mean, the shorts themselves had plots didn't they?
08:21 <@fenn> well, sort of
08:21 < Alcyius> There wasn't an overarching one
08:21 < JayDugger> Blame! had a rather vague plot.
08:21 < Alcyius> also, I need to finish watching the Metropolis anime movie
08:21 < kanzure> also there's the hplusroadmap manga
08:22 < JayDugger> Huh?
08:22 <@fenn> that feeling you get sometimes that you're living in a science fiction story, it's real!
08:22 < kanzure> it's true.
08:22 < JayDugger> I skipped my anti-senility pills today, and so am missing that joke.
08:22 < kanzure> but yeah, i think an hplusroadmap manga should happen, although i will readily admit i don't have much of that project figured out at the moment.....
08:23 < Alcyius> I need to watch Texhnolyze
08:23 < Alcyius> thanks for reminding me
08:23 <@fenn> no, you don't. texhnolyze is totally skippable
08:23 <@fenn> spolier: they turn all the humans into unfeeling robots
08:23 <@fenn> the end
08:23 < Alcyius> I fail to see how this is a bad thing /s
08:24 < Alcyius> Also, if anyone was looking for non-standard prosthetics
08:24 < Alcyius> http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/05/24/prosthetic-tentacle_n_3330298.html
08:24 < JayDugger> Seen "Now and Then, Here and There"?
08:25 < Alcyius> Haven't even heard of it
08:25 <@fenn> me either
08:25 < JayDugger> Well shit.
08:25 < kanzure> hplusroadmap manga suffers from a lack of plot at the moment. but the world building beats mostly everything.
08:26 < Alcyius> Also, what are your thoughts on Psycho Pass
08:26 < JayDugger> That's no help for a review--but kanzure's pitch is awesome.
08:27 < kanzure> maybe it should be a manga novelization of nsh's alleged federal reserve hacking
08:27 < cluckj> I'd probably read that
08:27 <@fenn> and NASA, can't forget that
08:27 < JayDugger> I think my niece watched that.
08:27 < kanzure> ah yes, nasa too, indeed
08:27 < Alcyius> Also, thoughts on Dresden Coak?
08:27 < Alcyius> *Codak
08:27 < JayDugger> Not a fan, but dislike most webcomics.
08:28 < kanzure> the manga could be about "science liberation front". that could be fun.
08:28 <@fenn> dresden codak is somewhat unique in having a positively portrayed cyborg character
08:29 <@fenn> it's kinda rambly but that's okay
08:29 < Alcyius> I just love the whole "I want to cut off my entire body and replace it with a better one"
08:29 <@fenn> that's not how it happened though, she was hit with a giant laser beam
08:29 < kanzure> well if you enjoy shit that panders to you, Alcyius would enjoy anything by charlie stross
08:29 <@fenn> which burned off half her body and part of her brain
08:29 < Alcyius> I mean yeah, but she had been planning it for a while at that point
08:30 <@fenn> but what kind of example would that set for the children? :P
08:30 < kanzure> i guess the manga would have to be hard scifi only
08:30 <@fenn> it's bad enough with lepht's idiocy
08:31 < kanzure> no "monks knocking sense into people by punching just right"
08:32 < kanzure> maybe elon musk stuff.
08:36 < JayDugger> Umm...example set by Stross...how about "steal ideas from better writers?"
08:36 < Alcyius> lol
08:36 <@fenn> steal ideas from usenet and old mailing lists
08:37 < JayDugger> In fairness to Stross, also worked for Rowling and Orson Scott Card.
08:37 < kanzure> i get v. disappointed with typical stereotypes unfortunately
08:37 < JayDugger> I was thinking Moorcock, Lovecraft, Zellazny, Leighton, and Fleming in Stross's case.
08:37 < kanzure> like sure we could do an "fbi special agent in the weapons of mass destruction division" teams up with "unruly biohacker" but then i feel bad about myself
08:37 < Alcyius> kanzure, do it as a set of "in the life" stories about near-future transhumanists
08:38 < JayDugger> Isn't that Vinge's "Rainbows End?"
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08:39 < kanzure> Alcyius: "some people make some nootropics, keep to themselves, and then achieve their goals on their own terms" is not much of a story
08:39 < JayDugger> Nonsense, that's Microcosmic God.
08:40 < JayDugger> Also Odd John.
08:40 < Alcyius> Could go "Glimpses in the Life" of an unnamed figure who makes a major advance
08:40 < Alcyius> Always have their face obscured
08:40 < Alcyius> That could be interesting
08:40 < Alcyius> Main character that you never really see
08:40 < Alcyius> You only see the results of their actions
08:41 < kanzure> satoshi? ok
08:41 < Alcyius> the bitcoin guy?
08:41 < Alcyius> That could actually be interesting
08:41 < Alcyius> 6 chapter manga about them
08:41 < Alcyius> Always facing away
08:41 < Alcyius> Or their face is obscured
08:42 < kanzure> unfortunately that would eliminate the possibility of the character being an ai, and i'm not sure i would want to do that.
08:42 < Alcyius> I mean
08:42 <@fenn> objection disqualified for lameness
08:42 < Alcyius> Same concept, but with the hypothetical, near future creator of the first AI
08:43 < Alcyius> 6 chapters, Childhood, College, Breakthrough, Disappearance, Results, "Death"
08:43 <@fenn> there are too many books already, why would you want to write another one?
08:44 < kanzure> because most of them are boring and make me frustrated?
08:44 < kanzure> good scifi is compressed idea transfer and syncing
08:44 < Alcyius> on that note
08:44 < Alcyius> Mass Effect is surprisingly hard sci fi
08:45 <@fenn> it has good industrial design, the physics is consistent
08:46 <@fenn> but the story is kinda bland
08:46 < Alcyius> I liked that the explanation for all the "dungeons" being the same in 1 was that they were all prefabs
08:48 < Alcyius> I dislike that I'd have to pay more than I got the 3 games for the DLC
08:49 <@fenn> i'd like to see a mass effect game from the point of view of the geth
08:52 < Alcyius> Can the SynthesisEnding!Geth still move bodies?
08:53 < Alcyius> Also, look at Grey Goo
08:53 < Alcyius> the game
08:54 < xentrac> fenn: I don't think of fuller and disney as transhumanists, although as JayDugger says, Fuller clearly is an inspiration to transhumanism
08:57 < xentrac> transmetropolitan touches on a lot of transhumanism themes, but the infrastructure in it is just scenery as far as I can tell
08:57 <@fenn> well it's hard to discern a difference between "optimistic futurists" and "transhumanists"
08:57 < xentrac> but it's fiction also
08:58 <@fenn> too much grunge for my taste
08:58 < Aurelius_Work2> it's not amazing, but warframe is a mix of hard scifi and, well, magic
08:58 <@fenn> 'he and his "filthy assistants" strive to keep their world from turning more dystopian than it already is'
08:58 < Aurelius_Work2> it's very 40k in that way
08:59 < xentrac> I haven't read everything Fuller wrote, but I haven't come across anything where he's talking about enhancing human biology internally, or uploading, or even Engelbartian mental augmentation really
09:00 < Aurelius_Work2> every other enemy in warframe is augmented, and the player character is a posthuman lifeform
09:00 < xentrac> there seems to be a pretty deep split between (nonfiction) futurists who explore personal apotheosis and those that explore infrastructure, which is pretty strange when you think about it
09:01 < Alcyius> Aurelius_Work2, I tried playing Warframe, but I just didn't
09:01 < Alcyius> It was eh
09:01 <@fenn> Aurelius_Work2: yeah i see what you mean 40k-like, reminds me of eldar vs imperium
09:01 < Aurelius_Work2> eh, it's a very specific type of game
09:01 < Aurelius_Work2> it's gotten better though
09:01 < Alcyius> I was trying to play it stealth
09:01 < Alcyius> And the stealth in it was
09:01 < Alcyius> Very meh
09:01 < Aurelius_Work2> fenn : and the Corpus as Tau
09:01 < Alcyius> And I didn't like all the microtransactions
09:01 < Aurelius_Work2> Alcyius : stealth has gotten much better, microtransactions are mostly cosmetic/convenience, but it will always be a game about maxing out your murderhobo ness
09:02 < Alcyius> I might reinstall it
09:02 < Alcyius> It was really poorly optimized when I played it too
09:02 < Aurelius_Work2> yeah, I came back to it for the first time in two years
09:02 < Alcyius> Though I have a GTX980 instead of a GTX560m now
09:02 < Aurelius_Work2> last week
09:02 < Aurelius_Work2> I had gotten bored
09:04 < Alcyius> anyone play GW2?
09:04 < Aurelius_Work2> I used to, but my issues with that game are...endless
09:04 < Aurelius_Work2> (with Arenanet in general)
09:04 < Alcyius> Eh
09:04 < Alcyius> I have a lot of friends in the game
09:04 < Alcyius> And I enjoy my asura engineer way too much
09:05 < Aurelius_Work2> I have like 600 hours in the game, don't get me wrong--it was just from the first 8 months after launch
09:05 < Alcyius> I have
09:05 < Alcyius> 1600 hours
09:06 < Alcyius> But I bought the collector's edition
09:06 < Alcyius> Played for 50 hours
09:06 < Alcyius> Then came back to it 2 years later
09:06 < Alcyius> It was a lot better
09:08 < Aurelius_Work2> I'm amused you dislike Warframe's microtransactions but mind Arenanet's less
09:08 < Alcyius> 95% of arenanet's are purely cosmetic
09:09 < Alcyius> When I first played Warframe, a lot of "classes" and weapons were bought
09:09 < JayDugger> Good night, everyone.
09:09 < Alcyius> night
09:09 < Aurelius_Work2> you can buy classes and weapons for convenience, or play the game to get them
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09:16 < Alcyius> I forgot how much I loved Hellboy
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09:28 < nmz787_i> Alcyius: I had to drop calc 2 a few times, and didnt end up passing until i took it alone, as my only course that semester/quarter
09:28 < nmz787_i> I guess 'term' is the more generic term
09:28 < Alcyius> nmz787_i, that was my experience in Calc 1
09:28 < Alcyius> I had to retake it over the summer
09:30 < Alcyius> I shouldn't have taken this in a regular semester tbh
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09:34 < nmz787_i> and I thinkthe averages in my organic classes were around the C grade level
09:35 < nmz787_i> except for the upper level classes that had more application in them
09:35 < Alcyius> I'm just hoping I get a 56.1%
09:35 < Alcyius> Enough to pass with a D-
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10:05 < Alcyius> One of my favorite bands is Ayreon, and its a shame, the music is so good, but I hate that it's so anti-technology
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10:10 < nmz787_i> meaning they don't  record themselves, and only perform acapella?
10:10 < Alcyius> nmz787_i, no, ayreaon is a prog rock project by a single guy
10:10 < Alcyius> The music is really good
10:11 < Alcyius> But the albums tell an overarching story of a race who destroyed their emotions by becoming dependent on machines
10:11 < Alcyius> Who created mankind, then tried to warn them of their imminent destruction due to their overreliance on technology
10:11 < Alcyius> All in all leaves a really bad taste in my mouth
10:12 < Alcyius> One of my other favorite bands is Van Canto, which is metal a cappella, but their music isn't preachy so
10:16 < kanzure> ayreon master of darkness is one of the first few songs i remember finding on my own
10:18 < Alcyius> I've listened to the entire discography
10:33 < Alcyius> God Kroenen is creepy
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12:59 < FourFire> Alcyius, remember, if you aren't trying to say something, use needlessly long, complicated sounding words: http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=2295
13:00 < Alcyius> lol
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14:06 < kanzure> re: brain uploading. modularization of the brain can be increased by selection for loss-of-function lesion sites (e.g. select for greater loss of function of some component or behavior when always cutting at a specific location, and select against non-loss). next you also need to select for lower connectivity between modules, and also that the connections htemselves between modules are pushed to the surface of the brain for easy ...
14:06 < kanzure> ... debugging at both input and output.
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14:20 < nmz787_i1> kanzure: just in time for the holidays, even with a paint job to go with the season http://www.go-dove.com/en/auction/view?id=9966143
14:20 < nmz787_i1> .title
14:20 < yoleaux> Kuka KR 360-2 Industrial Material Handling Robot, 6-Axis, Floor Type, Load 360 Kg, Range 2826 MM, Weight 2385 Kg includi | GoIndustry DoveBid
14:20 < nmz787_i1> (located somewhere around my neighborhood)
14:30 <@fenn> what do you ask robo-santa for christmas
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14:39 < erasmus> openbci ganglion board with bioera and a larger 3D printer to make a helmet for dry sensors.
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14:45 < kanzure> expecting the visual appearance of the brain to program a computer to behave like that brain, is probably not a good expectation re: actual physical brain scanning.
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14:47 < bjonnh> erasmus: what about the openeeg things?
14:47 < erasmus> I want ICA and LORETA in WinEEG
14:48 < erasmus> but I think I'd need a Mitsar amp
14:49 < bjonnh> that's too advanced for me
14:50 < erasmus> only reason I want the OpenBCI board is that it's $99
14:50 < erasmus> or it will be
14:50 < bjonnh> yeah but I'm worried about the quality of signals
14:51 < bjonnh> separation between channels and so on
14:52 < erasmus> http://bioera.net/manual.html#supported_devices
14:52 < erasmus> well Bioera wouldn't support it if it wasn't tested.
14:53 < erasmus> how exciting to be able to train on a $99 AMP
14:53 < erasmus> but we still have to wait like 6 months
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15:30 < erasmus> justanotheruser I want to join politics for the debate tonight.
15:31 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10736857
15:31 < yoleaux> Show HN: Recreate NASA's Apollo Space Beeps (Quindar Tones) with Web Audio | Hacker News
15:31 < justanotheruser> erasmus: /msg alis list politics
15:33 < bjonnh> erasmus: debate?
15:33 < erasmus> yeah last GOP debate of the year.
15:33 < bjonnh> oh
15:33 < erasmus> will prolly start around 7EST
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15:33 < bjonnh> they should give them RPGs and an open field
15:33 < erasmus> justanotheruser has ops in #politics
15:34 < erasmus> but he can't get over his butthurt.
15:34 < kanzure> this is off-topic
15:34 < erasmus> sorry kanzure
15:34 < fenn> also i banned you, why/how are you back?
15:35 < bjonnh> can we list bans?
15:36 < justanotheruser> bjonnh: /quote mode ##hplusroadmap +b
15:36 < fenn> in irssi you just type /ban and it shows a list
15:36 < bjonnh> justanotheruser: yeah I just found that on freenode help, thanks
15:36 < bjonnh> fenn: oh weechat does the same
15:37 < fenn> anyway obviously the username changed but it's skirting the spirit of the ban :P
15:41 < kanzure> other approach for brain uploading is to randomly eliminate different ways for the brain to vary (remove number of neurotransmitters, receptors, etc) while maintaining existing functionality, such that the number of weird things to analyze goes down
15:43 < fenn> somehow i doubt your attempts to evolve a simpler organism will succeed
15:43 < fenn> evolution always takes the side way out
15:43 < kanzure> what do you mean, complexity is going to get magically pushed into some other unmeasured direction?
15:43 < fenn> yeah
15:44 < kanzure> caught you agreeing with magic, you lose
15:44 < kanzure> .. or something. is that how this works?
15:44 < fenn> mumble mumble complexity emergence
15:44 < fenn> i'm not one of those santa fe institute people so i don't know all the lingo
15:45 < kanzure> i think a stronger argument for you to make would be something like, "selecting for simplicity is going to give poor behavior results", which is much easier to agree with than "some other complexity is going to happen to replace the one you were looking at".
15:45 < kanzure> however, brains have not been selecting for complexity or simplicity (especially from a human analysis perspective), so it would make sense for there to be room to cull certain aspects without impacting behavior completely.
15:45 < kanzure> *brains have not been selected for
15:46 < fenn> well i'm not certain at all that brain complexity is required for complex behavior
15:47 < fenn> but i've never seen evolution produce a simple expected outcome
15:48 < kanzure> what i really want is to use octopus chromatophores to report on signalling between different modules in octopus brain matter. but this is not going to happen.
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15:48 < fenn> you could use transparent zebrafish larvae and luminescent/fluorescent reporter proteins
15:49 < fenn> that's already been done
15:49 < kanzure> yeah most of what i am thinking about re: brain uploading is more like.. something like cat, dog or chimp brain.
15:49 < fenn> do we have NIR modulating proteins?
15:50 < kanzure> there was an infrared gfp i think
15:50 < fenn> .title http://www.nature.com/nmeth/journal/v7/n10/full/nmeth.1501.html
15:50 < yoleaux> Near-infrared fluorescent proteins : Nature Methods : Nature Publishing Group
15:50 < kanzure> .title http://www.nature.com/nbt/journal/v29/n8/full/nbt.1918.html
15:50 < yoleaux> Bright and stable near-infrared fluorescent protein for in vivo imaging : Nature Biotechnology : Nature Publishing Group
15:50 < kanzure> bah
15:50 < kanzure> oh they are different
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15:51 < docl> Alcyius: You might be able to meet your calculus course requirements by passing AP Calculus BC with high enough marks. (You need a score of 4+ to get all three classes worth according to my local community college website.)
15:51 < kanzure> we really need some flat-headed flat-brained animals
15:52 < fenn> kitten in a bottle
15:52 < kanzure> docl: don't encourage people to go to college, what's wrong with you
15:52 < fenn> kanzure if the alternative is high school it makes sense to skip straight to college
15:52 < kanzure> don't let parents bully you into high school vs college
15:53 < kanzure> jrayhawk turned out to be a perfectly fine gun nut
15:53 < jrayhawk> i am unable to personally recreate the scene from Tremors, ergo i am not adequate
15:53 < kanzure> why a bottle?
15:54 < fenn> .g kitten in a bottle
15:54 < yoleaux> http://ding.net/bonsaikitten/
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15:54 < kanzure> hmm i am not sure if this is helpful
15:55 < fenn> "By physically constraining the growth of a developing living thing, it can be directed to take the shape of the vessel that constrains it. Both foot-binding and head-binding were practiced in the Far East, for the purpose of miniaturizing the feet and shaping the head into attractive shapes."
15:56 < fenn> there was a tribe of native american that thought flattened skulls were attractive...
15:56 < kanzure> well, okay, how about this: select for brains that are able to survive flattening. you would first need to select the ones that would survive outside of a skull in reasonable conditions, like blood supply and such.
15:56 < fenn> how flat are we talking about?
15:56 < kanzure> oh, but then you need to get behavior input/outputs to check that it is still working.
15:56 < kanzure> i don't know, <1 cm thickness
15:56 < fenn> probably doable
15:57 < kanzure> i think <1 cm thickness would be way easier to analyze
15:57 < kanzure> 3d things are less probe-friendly
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16:00 < kanzure> sorta unfortunate that these are just methods that lead to even more studying at the end, instead of leading to an uploaded functional brain thing
16:02 < fenn> those hydrocephaly brains are pretty thin, even though the total volume is about the same
16:02 < kanzure> i think the jury is still out on whether those are imaging artifacts... we need to see more neuroimaging studies of that. and more autopsies and dissections.
16:04 < kanzure> it's interesting though that hydrocephaly should be easy to force (add a drip line)
16:05 < fenn> kevin warwick had a bottle of rat neural tissue culture controlling a wheeled robot, i'm not sure if it ever accomplished anything resembling intelligence. but you could hypothetically construct a set of intelligence tests for various kinds of brain-in-a-vat setups
16:06 < kanzure> yep sure... but my "data center of brain-slices-in-vat" plan suffered from questions regarding how to get all the brain matter split up like that
16:06 < fenn> it's much easier to pretend that an animal moving around and eating cheese has a fully-functioning brain, but then you're limited to phenotypes that eat cheese and run around mazes
16:07 < kanzure> so, hook up mouse and cat brains to optical character recognition tasks?
16:07 < fenn> yeah i guess
16:07 < fenn> images of soviet missile silos
16:09 < fenn> i feel like there are a lot of cognitive functions that a brain performs, and we can't even enumerate them
16:09 < fenn> visual object recognition is a well studied one
16:10 < kanzure> well, smooshing/flattening a brain (and selecting for brain survival from this), then splitting it up into multiple dishes based on regions or something, yeah i guess that would give enough to analyze what each component is doing
16:10 < kanzure> plus selection for electrode biocompatibility. and ability to survive being split up into lots of dishes... bleh.
16:10 < fenn> but if you're selecting brains-in-a-vat for simplicity you might just be discarding all the important stuff because it's not being measured because you don't know to measure it in the first place
16:11 < kanzure> well you would have to observe actual specimens running around with the simplified brains
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16:15 < Alcyius> docl, that is not an option
16:15 < Alcyius> My high school's math class stops at precalc
16:15 < Alcyius> Then you move to the uni's math classes
16:16 < Alcyius> Our courseload is integrated with the university
16:16 < Alcyius> Like post-secondary+
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16:18 < docl> Any other high schools in the area that offer AP testing?
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16:20 < docl> It's an annual thing that they tend to do in the spring. Homeschoolers do it too, it's one of those things like Driver's Ed. You don't have to do the high school's prep course if you study it for yourself.
16:21 < kanzure> instead of spending all that time studying, better to spend it developing actual skills
16:21 < docl> Isn't calculus an actual skill?
16:21 < fenn> not a useful one
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16:21 < Alcyius> docl, yeah, but if I leave the Early College High School, I'm barred from post-secondary stuff in the city
16:21 < fenn> it was more useful before we had automatic computers
16:22 < Alcyius> A money thing
16:22 < Alcyius> My main issue is having to pay $500 if I fail the class
16:22 < Alcyius> As opposed to the $0 I'd pay next year, when it would've been covered by scholarships
16:23 < docl> fenn: Funny that, calculus was one of the requirements to get a computer science degree when I was going to college.
16:23 < fenn> i'm not at all surprised
16:23 < Alcyius> calc I is a req for comp sci here
16:23 < fenn> organic chemistry was a requirement to get a biology degree. but biological chemistry and synthetic organic chemistry are different worlds...
16:23 < Alcyius> Have to go all the way to Differential Equations for an engineering degree
16:24 < kanzure> enrollment has nothing to do with your ability to learn calculus or organic chemistry or any other topic.
16:24  * docl wasn't familiar with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_college_high_school
16:25 < Alcyius> http://www.akronschools.com/school/Akron+Early+College+High+School
16:25 < docl> Not sure you'd have to leave the ECHS to take a test at another school. It's just a test, right?
16:25 < Alcyius> We take History 9 and 10, English 9, 10, 11, math up through honors precalc, and 2 years of science at the high school level
16:26 < Alcyius> And the rest of our time is spent doing college classes to (ideally) graduate with an associate's degree
16:28 < kanzure> so much wasted time. geeze.
16:29 < fenn> but it's certifiably wasted time
16:29 < fenn> so you can prove to a potential employer you are capable of wasting time in a specific way if someone tells you to
16:30 < fenn> docl did you go to ucsb?
16:31 < docl> fenn: I went to tvcc in oregon
16:31 < kanzure> do you know the oregon folks in here?
16:31 < kanzure> we have portland and eugene people
16:32 < docl> I don't think I've met any of them in person. I'm in salem now.
16:32 < kanzure> we should fix this
16:33 < fenn> heh here we go again
16:33 < fenn> herding cats
16:33 < kanzure> docl: you should meet nmz787
16:33 < kanzure> docl: you might even be able to mooch off of him for the holidays
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16:39 < fenn> Alcyius most math is really easy, just poorly explained. so you have to dig around until you find an explanation you understand, and then practice until the knowledge is burned into your memory (spaced repetition can help with this)
16:39 < fenn> but there's no reason to ever spend _years_ studying a particular line of math
16:39 < docl> kanzure: might be fun to hang out with him sometime. I keep intending to show up at the portland lesswrong meetups, but I always seem to feel more motivated to stay home than drive an hour to meet with random people.
16:40 < kanzure> nmz787 is way better than lesswrong people
16:40 < kanzure> even if they all morphed together and combined
16:40 < kanzure> oh i guess wei dai would be in there. and a few others. hm.
16:40 < kanzure> but still.
16:40 < docl> fenn: have you seen this site? http://betterexplained.com/
16:40 < fenn> fwiw most early lesswrongers have left
16:41 < kanzure> lesswrong is simply not optimized for the production of high-ability transhumanists.
16:41 < fenn> no docl i haven't tried to learn any math in a long time
16:41 < fenn> hmm maybe that's not true nevermind
16:41 < fenn> it's mostly the jargon and hieroglyphics i have trouble with now
16:42 < docl> I mostly learn math by trying to solve hypothetical engineering challenges.
16:42 < kanzure> i was very upset when i learned how simple the explanation was for sinusoids and other trigonometric properties. i was also upset about the poor explanations that everyone had previously given me. what a waste of everyone's time.
16:42 < docl> The hieroglyphics tend to stump me too.
16:42 < fenn> it's the assumption that you know what they mean that stumps me
16:42 < fenn> and no central hieroglyphics dictionary, like "what does S stand for"
16:43 < fenn> in engineering people label their fucking variables
16:43 < fenn> not so in math an physics
16:44 < docl> hmm. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mathematical_symbols might be worth spending a bit of time memorizing.
16:45 < fenn> those are not the symbols i have trouble with
16:46 < kanzure> it's a power law distribution thingy of symbol appearance, not surprising to see a list like that omitting the weird stuff
16:46 < fenn> it's arbitrarily chosen greek or roman letters in various fonts and styles that have a common meaning
16:46 < fenn> i wanted to say "an understood meaning" but understood by who?
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16:48 < docl> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_physics_notations maybe? actually there's probably a whole huge wiki walk to do there.
16:48 < fenn> this is also relevant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_letters_used_in_mathematics,_science,_and_engineering
16:49 < kanzure> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_hanged_for_obscure_symbols_used_in_mathematics
16:49 < kanzure> (adam back would be on this list...)
16:49 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_letters_used_in_mathematics
16:50 < kanzure> holy namespace collision batman
16:50 < fenn> i didn't find these pages last time i looked for them
16:51 < kanzure> this would be a good use for a moratorium
16:51 < docl> kids these days have it so easy, am I right?
16:51 < fenn> we should convene an international summit of concerned polymaths
16:52 < fenn> to call for a moratorium on the use of single letters to represent abstract concepts and quantities
16:52 < docl> yeah, namespace collision is a serious problem.
16:53 < docl> maybe require everything be two or more letters (english letters, no unicode) with an underscore between them?
16:53 < kanzure> ... no.
16:53 < kanzure> two letters is not enough.
16:53 < fenn> how about just words that represent the concept you are trying to communicate? is that so hard?
16:54 < kanzure> i would settle for an appendix on every paper, and snobbishly abandoning anyone who foregoes inclusion of a definition of every symbol.
16:55 < fenn> call the footnote police to take them away to the gulags
16:55 < kanzure> yeah now this would be a good use of state surveillance
16:57 < docl> isn't that what we pay peer reviewed journals for? I mean, what other people pay them for.
16:58 < fenn> yeah people who pay taxes
16:58 < fenn> suckers
16:58 < kanzure> huh?
16:59 < fenn> actually no, peer review is done out of the goodness of the hearts of academics, and a desire not to incur the wrath of the editor
16:59 < fenn> and probably some other unsavory motivations i'm not aware of
16:59 < kanzure> okay, what about selection for brains that can tolerate growth from neural tube stage and onward, in the presence of an invasive microelectrode array forest. would that be enough?
16:59 < fenn> there are style guidelines and some journals actually enforce them
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17:00 < kanzure> oh right, the skull grows around the brain during the growth stages. so you can't really just place it next to a 3d microelectrode scaffold and expect to get growth.
17:00 < docl> what's the open source equivalent of peer reviewed journals? wikiversity?
17:00 < fenn> why not just work on making microelectrode arrays that don't kill all the nerve cells?
17:01 < kanzure> fenn: because that's only useful for the surface of the brain really.
17:01 < kanzure> docl: there are some open-source journal platforms if that's what you're asking...
17:01 < fenn> docl there has been a lot of backlash against transparent peer review for some reason
17:02 < Alcyius> at least one group of republicans want scientific funding to be tied to congressional debate
17:02 < kanzure> you will gain nothing from watching that debate
17:02 < Alcyius> I mean they haven't passed that bill yet
17:03 < fenn> see what a shitstorm PubPeer has created just by existing...
17:04 < fenn> you'd think academics would be a little more immune to criticism than the average person, having undergone so much of it. but they're extremely sensitive to publicly available criticism because it affects hiring decisions and funding and so on
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17:05 < kanzure> and criticism is very cheap to create, and costly to defend against.
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17:06 < fenn> there have been various attempts at creating "arugment maps" or "belief networks" or whatever, that could maybe in some ideal universe make it less costly to defend against unwarranted criticism
17:07 < fenn> i don't see much effort to change coming out of academia though
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17:13 < docl> maybe there needs to be a proof of credibility algorithm associated to make sure the criticism is valid, kind of like proof of work in cryptocurrencies?
17:13 < fenn> like pagerank?
17:13 < fenn> or whuffie
17:13 < fenn> is "credibility" objective or observer-dependent?
17:15 < fenn> there was a proposal to require e-money "stamps" on email. if the recipient decided your email was spam, the stamps would be charged to your account, otherwise the email was free
17:16 < fenn> you could stake your reputation on some piece of anonymous criticism; if the criticism were dreadfully flawed or nonsensical your identity would be revealed
17:16 < fenn> but who gets to decide whether the criticism is valid?
17:17 < docl> seem hard to divorce credibility from observer, but maybe there could be a way that works by building a network of experts and letting them decide, with performance of past criticisms tracked. it would all be relative and competitive.
17:18 < fenn> this all sounds highly political and much worse than the existing impact factor by citation network system
17:18 < fenn> too many words in that sentence heh
17:20 < fenn> "impact factor" is a metric assigned to journals, and your personal score is determined by the H-index, which takes into account the impact factor of journals you have published in, and the journals that papers citing yours have published in
17:20 < fenn> it's strictly additive so a bunch of low quality papers citing yours can't drag it down
17:21 < fenn> you can easily game the system by publishing a bunch of crap papers in low impact journals citing your own
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17:26 < fenn> oops that was a totally wrong description of h-index
17:28 < kanzure> cheap criticism can be made by anyone with any motivation- even if they don't really want to positively contribute. this is why moderators exist.
17:29 < kanzure> http://lesswrong.com/lw/c1/wellkept_gardens_die_by_pacifism/
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17:29 < fenn> i'd rather people do research instead of playing politics games
17:32 < Jawmare> fenn, you have no idea what departmental politics are
17:32 < Jawmare> IT is even worse than normal office politics
17:32 < fenn> my parents were university professors
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17:33 < Jawmare> you put together 20-30 profs with ego the size of the moon
17:33 < fenn> "Academic politics are so bitter because the stakes are so low."
17:33 < kanzure> both of your parents?
17:33 < Alcyius> Hey whichever one of you guys is working on a synthetic skin, hurry it up, I'm kinda sick of ripping my own apart
17:33 < Alcyius> /s
17:34 < kanzure> Alcyius: try super glue
17:34 < Alcyius> kanzure, doesn't work for severe eczema
17:34 < fenn> try supplemental magnesium
17:34 < Alcyius> Now that's something I haven't heard before
17:34 < Alcyius> I'll try that
17:34 < fenn> magnesium citrate or glycinate
17:35 < Alcyius> anything else to deal with absorption?
17:36 < fenn> you can apply magnesium chloride solution to the skin (anywhere, not just where your eczema is)
17:37 < fenn> it burns if you have a break in the skin though
17:38 < fenn> you can overdose on magnesium glycinate though, there's no problems with absorption, just the extra expense
17:38 < fenn> with magnesium citrate you can do 300-400mg/day before diarrhea becomes a problem
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17:39 < Alcyius> I mean
17:39 < Alcyius> I'm already dealing with that, because my health isn't in the best shape at the moment
17:40 < fenn> albion makes a variety of amino acid chelates for animal feed supplementation, and they also do supplements for humans :D
17:41 < Alcyius> First I need to get on an antidepressant
17:42 < fenn> ssri's usually don't work
17:42 < Alcyius> I've had...poor reactions to them
17:42 < Alcyius> Gonna try a different one
17:42 < kanzure> or school is a terrible environment for a person
17:42 < Alcyius> *class
17:42 < Alcyius> kanzure, I mean yes
17:42 < Alcyius> But, I do indeed have depression only tangentially related to school
17:42 < kanzure> how would you know? you're in school.
17:42 < Alcyius> More lingering trauma and excessive familial expectations
17:43 < Alcyius> Because it gets worse when I'm not
17:43 < kanzure> summer doesn't count
17:43 < fenn> do you have panic attacks?
17:43 < Alcyius> I did before I started seeing a therapist
17:43 < Alcyius> A proper one
17:43 < Alcyius> Not a religious nutjob
17:44 < fenn> magnesium also helps with panic attacks and anxiety
17:44 < fenn> it's an NMDA antagonist and reduces the gain on your adrenaline response
17:46 < bjonnh> fenn: do you have a reference for that?
17:47 < fenn> well anyway if you want to experience temporary effects of elevated blood magnesium levels take an epsom salt bath
17:47 < fenn> bjonnh: for which?
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17:47 < fenn> bjonnh: a lot of my info comes from "the magnesium factor" by mildred seelig
17:48 < bjonnh> Mg, and NMDA antagonist and "the gain on adrenaline response"
17:48 < fenn> that was my paraphrasing
17:49 < bjonnh> I think that's bullshit
17:50 < bjonnh> Mg is used by most Ca channels
17:50 < bjonnh> but eating it will not change anything
17:50 < bjonnh> except if you are missing some eventually, but by the time it plays with your channels, you will clearly have worse problems
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17:52 < Alcyius> but will it help my skin
17:52 < Alcyius> If my skin isn't falling apart, I'd be a bit happier
17:53 < Alcyius> I'd rather have a new set, but that's a way off
17:53 < bjonnh> did you do a ionogram?
17:53 < bjonnh> not ionogram
17:53 < bjonnh> yes ionogram
17:53 < Alcyius> bjonnh, the only dermatologist in my area stopped taking my insurance
17:54 < bjonnh> any blood lab can do that
17:54 < Alcyius> I mean, we know what the cause is
17:54 < Alcyius> Well
17:54 < Alcyius> Except for one area that's a bit weird
17:54 < Alcyius> The rest is moderate to severe eczema with a moderate compulsion and bad reaction to any sort of pressure
17:55 < Alcyius> so creams and ointments are out
17:55 < bjonnh> you mean psychological cause?
17:55 < bjonnh> what is your diet like?
17:56 < Alcyius> poor, but that's typical of a college student
17:56 < bjonnh> well that's already something you can probably work on
17:56 < Alcyius> And it'd happen even without the compulsion part, I literally rip my skin apart in my sleep
17:56 < bjonnh> but it implies to do some efforts
17:56 < bjonnh> like cooking
17:57 < bjonnh> (and yes cooking can be rather quick, 10-30 min a day is enough to have a proper diet)
17:57 < bjonnh> and from a psychological POV, spending time taking care of yourself may help too
17:58 < bjonnh> I've seen radical changes in students I worked with that decided to take care of their diet
17:58 < Alcyius> bjonnh, the skin thing is a lifelong issue that's remained mostly constant in spite of other factors
17:59 < Alcyius> And I do cook as time and energy permits
17:59 < Alcyius> I need to get a decent chair in the kitchen though, I can't stand for long periods of time anymore
17:59 < bjonnh> so that part is good for you, you already have the habit and time to cook
17:59 < bjonnh> so now working on the nutritional aspect may help
18:00 < bjonnh> skin issues are often rduced with correct lipid intake
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18:01 < fenn> biochemistry is complicated and i don't have all the relevant details cached, but note: "Adrenaline or noradrenaline are receptor ligands to either α1, α2 or β-adrenergic receptors. α1 couples to Gq, which results in increased intracellular Ca2+ and subsequent smooth muscle contraction."
18:01 < bjonnh> by correct I mean equilibrated and in a normal amount.
18:01 < bjonnh> fenn: of course but everything is linked to everything in a body
18:02 < bjonnh> but if your magnesium levels are ok, it make no real sense to take more magnesium
18:02 < fenn> when you have higher extracellular magnesium concentrations, the mg2+ ions bunch up around the calcium channel and reduce the influx of ca2+
18:02 < fenn> the thing is 90% of americans are deficient in magnesium
18:02 < Alcyius> I'm sorry to seem a bit rude, cuz you are offering better advice than "try this ointment"
18:02 < Alcyius> But you do realize I'm talking about a life-long chronic condition right?
18:02 < bjonnh> yes
18:03 < Alcyius> Ok
18:03 < Alcyius> Just making sure
18:03 < bjonnh> the idea is not to cure it
18:03 < Alcyius> But manage the symptoms
18:03 < bjonnh> yep
18:03 < bjonnh> fenn: 90%… wow
18:04 < fenn> it's not surprising, it's really hard to get even the minium RDA from your diet
18:04 < fenn> minimum*
18:06 < fenn> skin issues often improve with fish oil supplementation, but it sounds like you have a psychological problem and this is just a manifestation of your stress response
18:08 < Alcyius> fenn, I mean, it's not just psychological
18:08 < fenn> chronic stress can cause inflammation and physiological changes
18:08 < Alcyius> There's a psychological component that's been there since early childhood
18:08 < Alcyius> And yeah stress is definitely an issue
18:08 < Alcyius> But there's also just chronic dry skin that responds poorly to treatment
18:08 < Alcyius> Because the only real treatments cause the inflammation and itchiness to begin with
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18:16 < fenn> huh i wonder where i picked up the idea "chronic stress causes inflammation"
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18:19 < bjonnh> because it may
18:20 < fenn> i'm not seeing anything corroborating this though
18:20 < fenn> only vaguely related things like "irritable bowel syndrome" or "autoimmune conditions"
18:20 < bjonnh> well inflammation may be related to autoimmune things
18:21 < Alcyius> Unrelated but
18:21 < bjonnh> and immune system is linked to brain
18:21 < bjonnh> so
18:21 < bjonnh> why not
18:21 < Alcyius> Damn they did a really good job at making the joker unsettling in Arkham Knight
18:22 < bjonnh> Alcyius: no diabetes?
18:22 < fenn> "Cohen argued that prolonged stress alters the effectiveness of cortisol to regulate the inflammatory response because it decreases tissue sensitivity to the hormone. Specifically, immune cells become insensitive to cortisol's regulatory effect. In turn, runaway inflammation is thought to promote the development and progression of many diseases."
18:22 < Alcyius> bjonnh, no, but I do have something wrong with both of my legs, and my doctor's first guess from how they're moving and family history is early onset arthritis
18:23 < Alcyius> Could be psoriatic arthritis
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18:25 < fenn> this is one of those "blob of data points with a line drawn through it" papers
18:27 < fenn> so it's a subtle effect
18:28 < bjonnh> maybe :p
18:29 < bjonnh> or none or a bad student
18:29 < fenn> they were studying healthy college students though, not people with chronic disease
18:29 < fenn> .title http://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22474371
18:29 < yoleaux> Chronic stress, glucocorticoid receptor resistance, inflammation, and disease risk. - PubMed - NCBI
18:30 < bjonnh> healthy college students
18:30 < bjonnh> hah
18:30 < fenn>  276 healthy adult volunteers
18:31 < fenn> the typical subject demographic of psychology department experiments
18:31 < bjonnh> bs
18:31 < fenn> i don't blame them, it's hard to get research subjects
18:31 < bjonnh> well probability of bs increases
18:32 < bjonnh> I know
18:33 < bjonnh> but there is this thing in research where it is better to make 4 crappy studies a year instead of a good one…
18:33 < bjonnh> for many diverse reasons
18:33 < bjonnh> which researches don't always control directly
18:33 < bjonnh> researchers
18:33 < fenn> yes that was the previous topic
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18:39 < fenn> 2012-04-12.log:00:54 < jrayhawk> http://chriskresser.com/rhr-chronic-stress-cortisol-resistance-and-modern-disease goddamn this is an interesting podcast
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19:00 < Alcyius> Nice
19:00 < Alcyius> my bro just made dinner
19:00 < Alcyius> Pork chops, loaded baked potatoes, and green beans
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20:33 < kanzure> Alcyius: regarding arkham knight.... https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl2Ae8IzmEusR43OL9HNcKQ
20:34 < kanzure> whoops
20:34 < kanzure> better link https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLgO7JBj821uHS8JrkAzGPLevc9Ky_D6qz
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20:47 < kanzure> hmm.
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20:56 < kanzure> what happened to those studies about offspring maze solving ability
21:18 < FourFire> Anything I should check out in Leipzig?
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22:00 < Jawmare> FourFire, LEGIDA
22:00 < Jawmare> :D
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--- Log closed Wed Dec 16 00:00:38 2015