--- Log opened Sun Dec 27 00:00:48 2015
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01:25 < fenn> Alcyius: try to read and understand this http://fhi.ox.ac.uk/brain-emulation-roadmap-report.pdf
01:25 < superkuh> Server down?
01:26 < superkuh> (re: that link of yours, fenn)
01:26 < superkuh> I tried 3 proxies and they all can't reach it.
01:26 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/irc/brain-emulation-roadmap-report.pdf
01:27 < superkuh> Thanks.
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04:22 < pasky> Alcyius: (if you aren't interested in answers, you may want to point that out while asking your question, or maybe don't ask the question at all)
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05:19 < kanzure> agreed with pasky
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05:35 < xrr> Finally starting to do basic microbiology experiments :)
05:37 < xrr> Need to figure out where to get petri dishes, agar, inoculation loop and most importantly an incubator
05:54 < kanzure> p212121, aliexpress, alibaba, ebay, the-odin.com (josiah zayner), john schloendorn's openbiotech.com (not sure if he rolled this into geneandcell.com or not)
05:55 < kanzure> oh geneandcell.com is using shopify, shit i'm proud of him for recognizing that he shouldn't do that from scratch. how unusual.
06:12 < kanzure> archels: what have the patch clamp people been up to for the past few years?
06:26 < archels> some autoclamping stuff I guess, I dunno
06:27 < kanzure> wasn't there in situ dna sequencing or something
06:27 < kanzure> or live neuron imaging? surely there is something new.
06:30 < archels> maybe some microdomain mRNA stuff?
06:30 < archels> I'm really just guessing at this point
06:36 < streety> there have been a couple of really recent articles performing single cell sequencing on cells after patch clamping
06:36 < kanzure> after or during?
06:39 < archels> after, probably
06:39 < archels> having its guts sucked out of it probably isn't a very pleasant experience for the cell
06:40 < streety> http://www.nature.com/nbt/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nbt.3443.html http://www.nature.com/nbt/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nbt.3445.html http://www.nature.com/cr/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/cr2015149a.html
06:40 < streety> all afterwards
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10:10 < Diablo-D3> speaking of strange DIY stuff to do in your basement: http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-Build-a-Forge-Gas/
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10:36 < docl> Diablo-D3: Have you seen this one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHD10DjxM1g
10:41 < xentrac> Diablo-D3: I don't recommend building a propane burner in your basement; it's too easy to get carbon monoxide poisoning
10:41 < Diablo-D3> xentrac: :D
10:44 < xentrac> build it outside.  or do super aggressive CO monitoring as you're testing your design modifications and afterwards
10:44 < Diablo-D3> I was kidding about the basement part
10:44 < Diablo-D3> I wouldnt want that 20 feet near my house
10:45 < Diablo-D3> okay so wait
10:45 < Diablo-D3> docl: the outer bucket he used is aluminum
10:45 < Diablo-D3> hes smelting aluminum in it
10:45 < Diablo-D3> I suspect that may not be the brightest idea
10:46 < Diablo-D3> I mean, just smelting pepsi cans, it'd probably survive awhile
10:46 < Diablo-D3> but long term use is going to damage the cement and the outer bucket, wouldn't it?
10:47 < xentrac> no
10:48 < Diablo-D3> why not?
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10:51 < Diablo-D3> is it because it just doesn't run long enough?
10:52 < xentrac> he's using plaster of paris.  what is the lifetime expectancy of plaster of paris refractory at red-heat temperatures?
10:53 < Diablo-D3> I don't know.
10:55 < xentrac> Well, go find out, and then come back and tell us.
10:55 < Diablo-D3> I'm not even sure how to find that out
10:56 < xentrac> There are books and published documents on refractory lifetime expectancy curves
10:56 < xentrac> docl: that is a very nicely produced video of the Gingery charcoal forge
10:58 < docl> Hadn't seen it called that. http://gingerybookstore.com/charcoalfoundry.html
11:00 < Diablo-D3> xentrac: I give up.
11:01 < xentrac> you've only been trying for five minutes!
11:01 < Diablo-D3> all I can find is it'll die if you go past 2,200F
11:02 < Diablo-D3> and I think thats just for pure plaster of paris
11:02 < xentrac> that's a good start --- and you can find out the temperature of orange-red from standard temperature-color charts
11:02 < xentrac> yeah, but the sand isn't going to be the weak link in the chain
11:02 < xentrac> but there are companies that sell refractory mixes and that publish engineering recommendations for things like that
11:02 < xentrac> expect to spend a couple of hours finding it out
11:02 < xentrac> I know you can do it!
11:05 < Diablo-D3> but its the end of the year and my company needs meeeee :(
11:06 < Diablo-D3> xentrac: does the sand increase the temp it survives at?
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11:07 < Diablo-D3> xentrac: okay, I made a mistake, I asked help from another irc channel.
11:07 < Diablo-D3> "sodium silicate + sand is a much better forge material than that plaster bullshit"
11:08  * Diablo-D3 is sorry he ever even shared the video.
11:08 < xentrac> no, I don't think the sand aggregate will *increase* the temperature
11:09 < xentrac> I am surprised to hear of someone using waterglass as a refractory for making a forge.  isn't it expansive?
11:10 < xentrac> questions of quality aside, every hardware store here has plaster, and I haven't found a source of waterglass yet here in Buenos Aires
11:11 < Diablo-D3> Yeah I think its like
11:11 < Diablo-D3> Im going to leave the strange metallurgy bullshit to the experts
11:11 < Diablo-D3> my level of DIY involves zipties and duck tape
11:12 < xentrac> (and I think you're more likely to burn yourself with the waterglass)
11:13 < docl> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Mx1-o1_MWo shows how to make it from lye and silica gel.
11:14 < xentrac> cool! I think I might need to level up my chemistry lab safety skills a few times first though ;)
11:14 < xentrac> can't you use lye and soda-lime glass too?
11:14 < docl> yeah, it looks super dangerous
11:16 < docl> http://chemistry.about.com/od/makechemicalsyourself/a/make-sodium-silicate.htm also talks about it
11:18 < kanzure> "economics of drone delivery" https://www.flexport.com/blog/drone-delivery-economics/
11:22 < docl> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xltvwhogklI mentions that you can dissolve sand in molten sodium hydroxide
11:25 < docl> I can't really see why making it from soda-lime glass wouldn't work (same elements, right?), but didn't find anything with a cursory websearch.
11:25 < Diablo-D3> I like that video more
11:25 < Diablo-D3> and re soda-lime glass
11:25 < Diablo-D3> if you're doing that in pyrex, I suggest you pay attention to WHICH pyrex
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11:28 < Diablo-D3> (the formula for non-scientific pyrex bakeware is a soda-lime formulation)
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11:34 < Jawmare> guys come on
11:36 < kanzure> jawmare what happened to the plan that involved me giving you large piles of money to do some lab work?
11:37 < Jawmare> kanzure, I don't have a lab
11:38 < kanzure> money can trivially solve this problem
11:41 < Jawmare> so hows the project going?
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11:42 < kanzure> still working on recruiting chemistry people
11:42 < kanzure> i am not going to pull the trigger on the build-out without that..... seems like a waste.
11:44 < kanzure> i'd rather try to get things right on the first try. e.g. get someone who wants to do lab work, figure out necessary materials, check whether the design makes sense given the things i don't know about, etc.
11:46 < Jawmare> lab work rarely works on the first try
11:47 < docl> what kind of lab work is being planned?
11:47 < Jawmare> wet chem dna synthesis
11:47 < Jawmare> s/lab/bench
11:48 < kanzure> yea i agree about rarely working on first try-- that is why i want to pay someone to work on that, heh.
11:50 < Jawmare> you'll probably be looking at someone with at least a MSc who did stuff in DNA synthesis
11:51 < kanzure> why?
11:51 < kanzure> i don't need perfect on the first try; i think i just need someone who can work on the problem, try stuff, and then try to fix things when they break.
11:52 < Jawmare> Yes, that would require someone who have at least a MSc
11:52 < Jawmare> or someone who have worked independently
11:53 < Jawmare> You'll also need something to characterize the DNA
11:55 < kanzure> yep, i'd probably buy them some equipment- spectrometers, maybe a shitty sequencer (or just ship the samples off- it's slow, but w/e), mass spec, etc..
11:57 < bjonnh> what budget do you have for all that?
11:58 < kanzure> how much do you need? :-)
11:59 < bjonnh> well a mass spec is hundred thousands
11:59 < bjonnh> depends what you need exactly
11:59 < bjonnh> it can go close to a million
11:59 < kanzure> perhaps if you buy them used/insured/with warranty/with maintenance..... but yeah, mass specs are not always that expensive.
11:59 < bjonnh> if you take an FT-ICR
12:00 < kanzure> engineer labor to design and build and test a mass spec is cheaper than spending $200k on a mass spec, heh
12:00 < kanzure> but also, renting access to existing lab space is also an option.
12:00 < kanzure> i don't care.
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12:01 < adlai> how come labspace (and spare hands) rental isn't already as blooming as business as recording studios?
12:01 < adlai> there must be plenty of rich lazyboys looking for helpful hands
12:02 < adlai> when does the market thing begin?
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12:04 < docl> I've been thinking, high grade vacuum chambers are a missing link for the diy / low-cost manufacturing / science world. but they don't seem that difficult in principle. the materials strength needed to hold a high grade vacuum isn't substantially different from a lower grade one.
12:04 < kanzure> well, most commercial labs are owned by the parent company because they are paranoid about privacy and intellectual property and stuff.
12:05 < Jawmare> adlai, science, back in the 1800s, were a hobby for richboys
12:05 < bjonnh> docl: yeah mass specs are made from standard stainless
12:05 < bjonnh> not that thick
12:05 < kanzure> there's rental opportunities in a number of locations but they are poorly advertized to our community (especially diybio- which makes sense, since nobody in diybio hsa any money).
12:05 < bjonnh> like 1/2 or 3/4 inch
12:05 < Jawmare> thick glasses are not that easy to make
12:05 < bjonnh> but it is most for electrical noise related questions
12:05 < docl> bjonnh: does mass spec need ultra high vacuum?
12:05 < bjonnh> docl: yes, you have turbopumps (usually two)
12:06 < docl> makes sense
12:06 < bjonnh> less that 2*10^-10 torr
12:06 < docl> wonder if turbo pumps (at least the blades) are 3d printable with regular cheap 3d printers?
12:07 < bjonnh> haha no
12:07 < bjonnh> don't ever put plastic in here
12:07 < bjonnh> they are made of a special metal
12:07 < kanzure> i think someone was using (photolithography) 3d printing to make blade casts, but dunno.
12:08 < bjonnh> and you need a standard vacuum pump too
12:08 < docl> kanzure: casting was going to be my next suggestion :)
12:08 < bjonnh> if you use a turbopump with atmospheric pressure you will just have blades flying all over the room
12:08 < bjonnh> usually they need a pre vacuum of 0.01 mbar
12:09 < docl> there's commercial systems like this at reasonable prices: http://www.amazon.com/ProVac-vacuum-chamber-gallon-size/dp/B00E0BG8R4/
12:13 < kanzure> Jawmare: to be fair, i have been hoping to find someone willing to do contracting/consulting on odd hours because i'm somewhat unwilling to jump immediately into full-time employment.... but i haven't fully considered whether i should be okay with offering full-time employment.
12:13 < kanzure> anyway it seems more likely that a masters grad is going to want full-time employment. but hopefully not.
12:14 < Jawmare> you won't really find a lot of masters grad with lab spaces
12:14 < Jawmare> actually you won't find a lot of masters grad, let alone in related fields
12:15 < docl> are there likely to be universities willing to lend the needed equipment?
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12:15 < Jawmare> universities are not really open to let people they don't know to touch valuable stuff
12:16 < Jawmare> academic collaboration, maybe.. if you find a prof that sympathize the DIY biohacking scene
12:17 < kanzure> i agree that universities are unlikely to let you touch their stuff :-)
12:17 < kanzure> academic collaboration would require something like... a grant... or something.
12:18 < kanzure> right, sympathizer is too much of a constraint though--- there really aren't that many dna synthesis labs like that heh.
12:18 < kanzure> and then the chances that they have someone willing to work on this project too? even lower.
12:18 < docl> can you create a grant? no wait, that's probably too much work.
12:22 < bjonnh> docl: for a mass spec you need vacuum, high voltages, ion lens (basically 4 and 6 rods with really precise voltages applied to them)
12:22 < bjonnh> and then you need a way to separate your ions according to their mass/charge ratio
12:23 < bjonnh> I would go for the service mass spec (which you can more than probably find) analysis price can range from $50 (academic labs) to some hundred by sample
12:24 < bjonnh> usually for some hundreds you get the analysis of the data done too.
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12:34 < kanzure> yes but the lead time is the downside there.... but yes.
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12:34 < bjonnh> kanzure: well one way could be to propose a grant
12:35 < bjonnh> you come with your project and give the grant to the university that propose the best service for what you want
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12:36 < kanzure> university admins take 52% of all grant money. kinda gross, although i suppose not a showstopper.
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12:42 < Jawmare> ^thats actually very disgusting
12:46 < docl> http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~fajans/pub/pdffiles/VacComp.pdf
12:47 < bjonnh> kanzure: yep
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12:47 < bjonnh> that's a big big issue
12:48 < bjonnh> and usually they take 52% but the funding agencies are asking them to give back to researchers
12:49 < bjonnh> also some agencies force universities to take less than that
12:49 < bjonnh> but that's rare
12:49 < bjonnh> also universities don't really give back…
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12:54 < docl> http://ocean.sci-hub.bz/8043198f298ec1ccce51020b598c6916/10.1116%401.578186.pdf fast pump-down aluminum ultrahigh vacuum system
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13:19 < docl> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_spectrometry
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16:00 < justanotheruser> Where do I find GPU clusters for rent
16:00 < justanotheruser> AWS has 4 GPU clusters, which is wimpy
16:01 < kanzure> spin up multiple instances?
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16:35 < Diablo-D3> yeah what kanzure said
16:35 < Diablo-D3> although its cheaper to just build your own cluster
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16:43 < adlai> so is the oldest profession older than the human race?
16:43  * adlai mistook this for ##hminuslookback, oops please disregard from log
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17:48 < bjonnh> Diablo-D3: cheaper to build your own? I'm not that sure
17:48 < bjonnh> depends how long you need it
17:49 < Diablo-D3> bjonnh: well yeah
17:49 < Diablo-D3> but you can get a lot of used cards cheap off ebay
17:50 < Diablo-D3> especially with all the bitcoin gpu miners finally giving up and going home
17:50 < Diablo-D3> (about 2 years after everyone else did)
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17:55 < justanotheruser> Diablo-D3: the GPU miners are giving up? I thought they were moving to new scamcoins
17:56 < Diablo-D3> justanotheruser: eh, they kinda sort were
17:56 < Diablo-D3> but even that doesnt pay well enough
17:56 < justanotheruser> aight, so there is a good used GPU market?
17:57 < Diablo-D3> yeah for the past 2 years
17:57 < Diablo-D3> but largely for a long time
17:57 < Diablo-D3> its just hit nd miss
17:57 < Diablo-D3> about a third of cards on ebay are dead
17:57 < justanotheruser> what about FPGAs?
17:57 < Diablo-D3> but when you're paying half or less what theywre new
17:57 < Diablo-D3> bitcoin'ed fpgas are useless
17:57 < Diablo-D3> all compute, no ram
17:57 < Diablo-D3> those boards were made for one function, and thats it
17:57 < justanotheruser> ah right
17:58 < Diablo-D3> its what mkes me sad about those
17:58 < Diablo-D3> they really are kind of worthless now
17:58 < Diablo-D3> although some are still profitable straight up
17:58 < Diablo-D3> if you have them stashed in a DC thats getting good power prices
17:59 < fenn> why are 1/3 of the GPU cards dead?
17:59 < Diablo-D3> fenn: idiot overclockers
17:59 < justanotheruser> because they are meant form gaymez not mining
17:59 < Diablo-D3> its not even bitcoin guys
17:59 < Diablo-D3> its just idiot 14 year olds
17:59 < Diablo-D3> ZOMG SO FAST SO FAST
17:59 < Diablo-D3> no, more like so bsod
18:00 < justanotheruser> oh, just overclocking? lol
18:00 < Diablo-D3> I mean, I overclocked cards too, but I understood the limits of the hardware
18:00 < Diablo-D3> I'd hug my 7970, the most glorious gpu ever, but it'd burn me :(
18:01 < Diablo-D3> I think after Im done using it, I may get it mounted
18:02 < Diablo-D3> I sacrificed the hsf assembly on it for the greater good
18:02 < Diablo-D3> and like optimus prime, it came back even better
18:03 < Diablo-D3> actually, more like megatron/galvitron
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18:15 < filthy_peasant> hi
18:15 < filthy_peasant> what's up
18:15 < filthy_peasant> hi jawmare
18:15 < Jawmare> hi
18:15 < filthy_peasant> hi kanzure
18:15 < Jawmare> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/dna/synthesis/notes/
18:22 < Jawmare> what do you think?
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18:47 < filthy_peasant> seems interesting jawmare :)
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20:44 < xentrac> docl: I agree with you about the vacuum chambers.  actually even low-vacuum chambers are really useful for some things.  a sprengel pump is the easy way to get a reasonably high vacuum
21:06 < kanzure> bloop
21:09 < xentrac> turbomolecular pumps can get down to 10 nanopascals; Sprengel pumps can only get down to a millipascal
21:13 < xentrac> a millipascal qualifies as "high vacuum" nowadays, but not "ultra high vacuum"
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21:15 < xentrac> my understanding is that from the millipascal range, another way to get to arbitrarily high vacuums is to add getters
21:16 < xentrac> which is how Lee De Forest was able to invent the Audion tube in 1906, before the Holweck pump was invented in 1920 and the turbomolecular pump in 1958
21:18 < xentrac> getters are slow, qualify as contamination in themselves, and are potentially very expensive to regenerate after they've been spent, but they're also very simple and they're unavoidable
21:19 < fenn> an ion pump sounded reasonably straightforward to construct
21:21 < fenn> just a small diode tube
21:21 < xentrac> I didn't know about those
21:22 < fenn> "capable of reaching pressures as low as 10−11 mbar under ideal conditions.[1] An ion pump ionizes gas within the vessel it is attached to and employs a strong electrical potential, typically 3–7 kV, which allows the ions to accelerate into and be captured by a solid electrode and its residue."
21:22 < fenn> 1e-11 mbar
21:22 < xentrac> oil diffusion pumps can also reach 10 nanopascals, just like turbopumps, and they are a lot simpler
21:22 < xentrac> that's 1 nanopascal
21:22 < xentrac> impressive!
21:23 < xentrac> I wish people would just use the SI units for pressure
21:23 < fenn> what is SI? pascal?
21:23 < xentrac> yeah
21:24 < xentrac> but for whatever reason every field just makes up its own units and keeps using them
21:24 < fenn> i guess bar is more useful for daily engineering
21:24 < xentrac> apparently not or they wouldn't be using millibar
21:25 < fenn> high vacuum is not daily engineering
21:25 < fenn> there are way too many pressure units in common use though
21:26 < xentrac> I guess you could make the argument that our day-to-day pressures are a bar or so, maybe half a dozen bar in your bike tire
21:26 < fenn> not that much
21:26 < xentrac> which is maybe easier than saying it's 600 kilopascals
21:26 < fenn> oh half a dozen hmm
21:27 < fenn> what do people say in argentina when pumping tires?
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21:27 < xentrac> but I think everyday engineering frequently uses pressures that are both orders of magnitude higher (like the moduli of elasticity I was confused about the other week in the GPa range) and lower (the dynamic pressure of a breeze, the expected load of a building)
21:27 < xentrac> they use psi!
21:28 < xentrac> I forget what they call them though
21:28 < xentrac> not sure if they're "libras" or "psi"
21:28 < xentrac> they don't say "libras por pulgada cuadrada" though
21:30 < fenn> when building a mass spec you don't need such-and-such vacuum level, you need to have a mean free path shorter than the distance that individual ions travel
21:30 < xentrac> http://www.public.asu.edu/~aomdw/GLASS/DIFFUSION_PUMP.html describes what claims to be an easy-to-make and very inexpensive oil diffusion pump
21:30 < xentrac> you mean longer?
21:31 < fenn> so it would seem that a smaller instrument would have to attain less stringent vacuum levels
21:31 < fenn> er, yeah longer
21:31 < xentrac> aye
21:31 < xentrac> by the same token, a smaller turbomolecular pump ought to be able to tolerate a higher pressure level from its roughing pump
21:32 < fenn> i wouldn't even bother with a turbomolecular pump
21:33 < fenn> a peristaltic pump has no dead space and is super cheap and simple to build
21:34 < fenn> then an ion pump can get you the rest of the way (?)
21:34 < xentrac> yeah, the ion pump thing sounds pretty effective
21:34 < xentrac> although the oil diffusion pump might be good enough for a lot of applications and be easier to build
21:35 < fenn> the oil goes everywhere though
21:36 < xentrac> apparently
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21:37 < xentrac> I have no experience with vacuum applications
21:37 < xentrac> so maybe I shouldn't talk
21:37 < fenn> me either
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21:37 < xentrac> but I agree with docl that it's a very important capability for a lab, for a lot of things
21:38 < fenn> when i was thinking about building a small mass spec i was planning on using small scale glass tubing and just melting glass together for all the connections
21:38 < xentrac> that seems to be what the oil-diffusion design I linked above did
21:39 < xentrac> fabricating vacuum tubes, cryostats (and thus cryogenics in general), degassing castings, building scanning electron microscopes, running mass spectrometers, coating mirrors, and electron-beam melting, welding, and etching
21:39 < xentrac> all of those require vacuum
21:40 < xentrac> maybe I'm missing some important things?
21:42 < fenn> "Proceedings of the A.S.G.S. 1995 Sumposium",
21:42 < fenn> "4" Glass Oil Diffusion Pump", by Michael D. Wheeler, pages 24-30, carries the full
21:42 < fenn> publication.
21:42 < fenn> well, great
21:42 < fenn> "here's a photo" thanks dude
21:42 < xentrac> yeah, and I'm not successful at finding a copy et
21:42 < xentrac> yet
21:46 < xentrac> he seems to have started a glassblowing company
21:46 < fenn> there are not very many scientific glassblowers in the world
21:47 < xentrac> I guess that's why they only have their symposium once a year
21:47 < fenn> i met one here, but he was moving back to panama
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21:48 < xentrac> there are a lot of scientists who sometimes blow a little glass though
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21:50 < bjonnh> fenn: you need turbomolecular pump
21:50 < bjonnh> …
21:50 < fenn> please elaborate
21:50 < bjonnh> detecting tons of small ions with an home made mass spec could be possible
21:50 < bjonnh> like metals that kind of stuff
21:51 < fenn> that's mostly what i'm interest in
21:51 < bjonnh> but if you plan to do organic molecules bigger than 2-3 atoms…
21:51 < bjonnh> you'll be screwed
21:51 < fenn> i'm not trying to solve protein structures or anything like that
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21:51 < fenn> can't i just let it run longer to get a better SNR?
21:52 < bjonnh> well mass spec is not really helpful for structure (not directly at least)
21:52 < bjonnh> fenn: if you have enough material
21:52 < bjonnh> probably
21:52 < bjonnh> you should look at magnetic sector mass specs
21:52 < bjonnh> they were able to get some decent results with these
21:52 < bjonnh> I would just change the ion separation part with some newer technologies
21:52 < xentrac> bjonnh: are you saying that ion pumps and diffusion pumps are not useful for mass spectrometers?
21:53 < bjonnh> no these could work, depends on the "flow"-rate you can reach
21:53 < fenn> i wonder why the sector design only goes through 90 degrees instead of a full 360 ish
21:53 < bjonnh> but you usually don't want to attract ions in a mass spec
21:53 < bjonnh> you'll loose your signal
21:53 < xentrac> indeed
21:53 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sector.jpg
21:59 < xentrac> fwiw the set of pumps that someone thought were important enough to includei n http://accounts.smccd.edu/mcomberj/AVS_Timeline.pdf are Sprengel(-Geissler(-Edison)), Crookes, Bunsen water-jet, getters, oil-piston, cryopumping (with charcoal originally), Gaede's oil-sealed vane pump, Pfeiffer's variant of it, Gaede's molecular-drag pump, the diffusion pump, Langmuir's high-speed diffusion pump and all-metal condensation pump, ....
21:59 < xentrac> and at that point we get mass spectrometers
22:02 < xentrac> then the Gaede box pump, the Holweck pump, three kinds of oil (as opposed to mercury) diffusion pumps, multistage diffusion pumps
22:02 < xentrac> and at that point we get SEMs
22:03 < xentrac> btw WRT 3-D printing turbopumps, I think there's a good chance we can turn gelcasting processes for high-temperature ceramics into 3-D printing processes
22:04 < xentrac> it should be a heck of a lot easier than bootstrapping selective laser sintering of steel, let alone superalloys
22:05 < xentrac> the turbomolecular pump finally shows up in 1958
22:05 < xentrac> and the ion pump in 1953 and 1954
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22:07 < xentrac> hmm, this also mentions "a series of amateur orientated vacuum articles in Scientific American" starting 1958. that might actually be a better place to start than working backward from what we know now
22:07 < xentrac> I mean that was after all the major pumping inventions had already happened
22:09 < xentrac> also mentions a magazine called "The Bell Jar" about amateur vacuum stuff
22:10 < kanzure> grumble grumble i guess i should dig up my (now lost?) page on ultra-high vacuum stuff.
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22:12 < xentrac> yeah
22:13 < xentrac> also though this is the kind of dependency relationship that would be useful for SKDB
22:13 < kanzure> i don't suppose any of you nutjobs happen to have a copy of that old page? it was my atom holography page.
22:14 < fenn> http://www.sandia.gov/media/robocast.htm "a new way of fabricating ceramics, called robocasting, that requires no molds or machining.
22:14 < xentrac> that you typically need such-and-such a vacuum for aluminizing, such-and-such a vacuum for a working vacuum tube, such-and-such a vacuum for a SEM, and the Sprengel pump will give you such-and-such a vacuum and requires glassblowing and mercury
22:14 < xentrac> can SKDB currently handle that kind of relationship?
22:15 < fenn> yes
22:15 < fenn> vacuum is expressed as a unit and that would be put in the run-time requirements
22:16 < docl> http://amasci.com/amateur/sciam1.html has links, but some are dead
22:17 < xentrac> fenn: yeah, that syringe thing is one way to do 3-D printing of ceramics
22:18 < xentrac> I think the more popular way is with inkjet powder squirting
22:18 < xentrac> uh binder squirting
22:18 < xentrac> on a powder bed
22:20 < xentrac> so far I've only seen people do that with Stone-Age clay and sand powder, which has produced some impressive results
22:20 < fenn> selective sintering inhibition looks like a pain because you get large solid blocks as waste material
22:21 < xentrac> but I think it should be maybe even easier with systems like gelatin and aluminum oxide, as well as safer
22:21 < fenn> syringe squirting has the terrible surface texture typical of FDM
22:21 < xentrac> also the terrible slowness
22:21 < xentrac> although maybe if you have to fire it for 24 hours anyway that doesn't matter
22:22 < fenn> behrokh khoshnevis came up with a deposition head with paddles that smooth out the surface as long as it doesn't have too much curvature
22:22 < fenn> well, one of his grad slaves probably
22:22 < docl> kanzure: try http://web.archive.org/web/20100226044703/http://heybryan.org/projects/atoms/
22:23 < xentrac> that kind of first-order approximation gets you continuity with only discontinuities in the derivative, which is probably good enough for a lot of purposes
22:23 < fenn> http://www.craft-usc.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/ccccc.png diagram of deposition head
22:24 < xentrac> there's a bit of an overview in http://www.belljar.net/amsci.htm actually
22:24 < fenn> RIP lindsay publications :(
22:24 < xentrac> kanzure: maybe you should keep the web site notes that you write yourself at least in a git repository if you still hate IPFS
22:25 < xentrac> fenn: that's very cute
22:28 < kanzure> wtf but the wayback machine was giving me no results when i looked the other day
22:28 < kanzure> "the Bell Jar - Vacuum Technique for the Amateur"
22:28 < xentrac> the wayback machine is not very reliable
22:28 < xentrac> http://www.belljar.net/2011_csl_vacuum_overview.pdf seems like a good place to start actually
22:29 < fenn> .title http://www.youtube.com/embed/OJceJx3NCio
22:29 < yoleaux> Video of operation of actual Contour Crafting prototype machine - YouTube
22:30 < xentrac> fenn: a particular system I've been thinking about is waterglass precipitated into silica gel as a binder using acid
22:30 < kanzure> ah right, i was looking for atom_holography_notes.html
22:32 < xentrac> if you're squirting binder into a powderbed from inkjet, you could maybe put the waterglass into the inkjet head and the acid in the powder, but that seems like a recipe for permanently clogged or rapidly corroded heads
22:32 < xentrac> but if it's workable it should give you rock-hard dimensionally stable ceramic composite pieces right away without sintering
22:34 < xentrac> man, p.5 of that PDF has exactly the dependency diagram that I was trying to reconstruct in my head
22:36 < fenn> "this booklet was prepared for the citizen scientists league"
22:37 < kanzure> "a subsidiary of lex luthor corp" oh well there's the problem
22:38 < docl> xentrac: wow, that's a cool chart.
22:40 < xentrac> yeah!
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22:44 < xentrac> I wish I had a pamphlet like this for cryogenics
22:45 < fenn> you can use co2 for solidifying the waterglass
22:47 < docl> high temp printed refractory molds for casting?
22:48 < xentrac> co2, seriously?
22:48 < fenn> yep
22:48 < xentrac> does that take a long time? co2 isn't that reactive
22:48 < fenn> it's standard practice for making foundry cores
22:48 < fenn> it takes a few seconds
22:48 < xentrac> hmm, so maybe not suitable for 3-D printing
22:49 < xentrac> docl: yeah, you can print high-temp refractory molds for casting out of Stone Age clay bodies
22:49 < xentrac> it's just the lost-wax method without the wax
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22:50 < xentrac> the Bell Jar dude opines that oil-diffusion is the best suited for "general amateur applications" of high vacuum
22:50 < fenn> .title http://youtu.be/rs4q-QZmNpY?t=7m
22:51 < yoleaux> DIY Boat Propeller - Part 5 - The Success - YouTube
22:51 < fenn> shows co2 solidifying sand + waterglass
22:51 < fenn> he's doing it wrong though, you don't usually solidify the entire mold half like that
22:52 < xentrac> docl: the open3dp folks at UW have published a bunch of recipes for 3-D printing ceramics out of clay with inkjet "binder"
22:52 < xentrac> that does seem a little excessive and maybe counterproductive
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22:57 < xentrac> I think for 3-D printing kinds of things, there isn't a need to shape a thing first and then harden it later, so the CO₂ trick probably doesn't have any advantage over just including acid in one of the components you add
22:57 < xentrac> you would rather prefer to have everything hardened as soon as you have shaped it
22:57 < xentrac> unless you're smoothing it with a robotic spatula or something, maybe
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22:58 < xentrac> there are other binders that are immediately activated by pH or other hardeners like waterglass that might be less tricky to work with
22:58 < xentrac> like some carrageenans and alginate
22:59 < xentrac> there's been some work on gelcasting with carrageenan binders
22:59 < fenn> i think that's solidified with calcium chloride
22:59 < xentrac> alginate is; I forget the deal with carrageenan
23:00 < xentrac> hmm, some carrageenan gels will gel with calcium ions, like alginate
23:00 < xentrac> others will gel with potassium ions
23:01 < xentrac> http://www.fao.org/docrep/006/y4765e/y4765e0a.htm#bm10 has more detail
23:01 < xentrac> also somebody is using alginate to print organs: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22097985
23:02 < xentrac> konnyaku is the pH-sensitive binder I was thinking of: http://www.konjacfoods.com/gum.htm
23:03 < xentrac> perhaps unfortunately a lot of these gels are thermoreversible (i.e. if you heat them up enough they melt, like Jell-O) but maybe if you dry them out before firing then that's not a problem
23:03 < xentrac> alkaline konnyaku gel is thermostable up to 200°
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23:05 < xentrac> oh and yes people have gelcast alumina by activating alginate binders with calcium ions: https://books.google.com.ar/books?id=J7-Takvz7mcC&pg=PA96&lpg=PA96&dq=alginate+gel+casting&source=bl&ots=8ALwJCZD7B&sig=vLhjQmiiR002HBxlceSB053saCQ&hl=es-419&sa=X&ved=0CHsQ6AEwDWoVChMIibb76YStxwIVyYmQCh23XQ5e#v=onepage&q=alginate%20gel%20casting&f=false
23:05 < xentrac> also http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0955221901005131
23:05 < xentrac> but those aren't about 3-D printing
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23:06 < xentrac> oh and gelcasting alumina with carrageenan: http://library.iyte.edu.tr/tezler/master/malzemebilimivemuh/T001104.pdf
23:08 < xentrac> that dissertation includes fairly complete recipes and physical property measurements
23:10 < CautiousNarwhal> what are you guys talking about?
23:11 < xentrac> possible 3-D printing processes for high-vacuum-safe precision parts
23:12 < CautiousNarwhal> oh wow thats highly specific
23:12 < xentrac> (or potentially for other purposes, such as machining inserts; and also other aspects of high vacuum)
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23:31 < fenn> machining inserts seems a bit too ambitious
23:31 < xentrac> really? why?
23:31 < xentrac> should be simplicity itself
23:31 < xentrac> I mean it's a great deal simpler than a high vacuum system :)
23:31 < xentrac> p.35 of this pamphlet has a pure sorption pump using zeolite
23:34 < fenn> inserts need to be very uniform density to withstand thermal stress without fracturing along a discontinuity
23:35 < fenn> they also need very good surface finish
23:35 < fenn> they also need to be sharp
23:35 < xentrac> I guess you're right
23:36 < xentrac> the second and third of those problems would be really hard to solve with a non-atomic additive process
23:36 < fenn> they don't need to be razor sharp, but sharper than a typical FDM blob
23:37 < fenn> they're compression sintered in molds, i'm not sure on the details
23:41 < fenn> my 1960s engineering book says tungsten carbide is first pressed at 12-30 ton/in^2, then pre-sintered at 1400-1500F, then "forming" which seems to be some kind of rotary grinding process, then sintered 2400-2700F for 20-30min, then final grinding and lapping
23:43 -!- xentrac [~kragen@adjuvant.canonical.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
23:44 -!- FAMAS [~FAMAS@unaffiliated/famas] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
23:54 < Alcyius> https://aeon.co/essays/why-pregnancy-is-a-biological-war-between-mother-and-baby
23:54 < Alcyius> This is a very interesting article
--- Log closed Mon Dec 28 00:00:49 2015