--- Log opened Sat Jan 09 00:01:00 2016
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07:02 < kanzure> hmph
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07:26 < maaku> https://www.reddit.com/r/MachineLearning/comments/404r9m/ama_the_openai_research_team/
07:26 < maaku> .title
07:26 < yoleaux> AMA: the OpenAI Research Team : MachineLearning
07:28 < maaku> Apparently OpenAI will not be open source. Color me disappointed.
07:36 < kanzure> so much for "everyone gets an ai"
07:37 < kanzure> ai people are really really bad at "this time it's different"
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08:55 < AdrianG> so how is it Open
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10:00 < archels> .title http://www.infoq.com/presentations/We-Really-Dont-Know-How-To-Compute
10:00 < yoleaux> We Really Don't Know How To Compute!
10:00 < archels> this man is saying so many things that are wrong that I don't even know where to begin
10:01 < archels> and I'm scarcely 10 minutes in
10:01 < JayDugger> People generally do "this time it's different" badly.
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10:58 < fenn> maaku: i don't see any "official" responses on that reddit AMA; where you get "OpenAI will not be open source" from?
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12:54 < xentrac> fenn:  “I’d discussed with a staff member that the project would not in fact be open source”
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16:43 < maaku> fenn: what xentrac quoted
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18:18 < maaku> So turns out that OpenAI is just a machine learning research shop. Yawn.
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18:35 < kanzure> what were you expecting instead, though?
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18:45 < maaku> I'll repeat some things I said in ##AGI
18:46 < maaku> It seems like Musk, Altmann, et al are getting swindled.
18:46 < AdrianG> why?
18:46 < maaku> They claim this is about x-risk reduction -- I know, bear with me -- but the actual research agenda of OpenAI has very little impact on that
18:47 < AdrianG> go on.
18:47 < maaku> I think actually throwing this money at MIRI would have done more x-risk reduction than OpenAI, and that's saying something if you know my views on that
18:48 < xentrac> HAHA
18:48 < xentrac> oops
18:48 < maaku> OpenAI doesn't seem to be setting itself up to pursue anything other than next generation ML neural networks, which at best are a small part of AGI (emphasis on G) and not the part which leads to "the control problem"
18:48 < xentrac> I normally don't have a capslock!
18:49 < AdrianG> musk/altmann invested in openai?
18:49 < maaku> It feels a bit like the 'nanotech' switcharoo in the '90s, where Foresight et al convinced the world that molecular manufacturing was a transformative and scary technology
18:50 < maaku> So major gov'ts poured billions of $ into basic research into 'nanotech' ... which got redefined along the way to mean something else and we got stain resistant pants
18:50 < AdrianG> openAI is getting funding because sutskever
18:51 < maaku> AdrianG: yes, a billion dollars
18:51 < AdrianG> i would imagine plenty of people would be interesting funding his work
18:51 < maaku> (in the form of ralatively illiquid stocks and such)
18:51 < AdrianG> maaku: afaik that's been pledged, not disbursed
18:51 < AdrianG> idk. if i had a billion to blow, i would like to keep tabs on what sutskever is doing.
18:52 < AdrianG> i think thats the real goal.
18:53 < xentrac> maaku: wasn't that in the 2000s?
18:53 < kanzure> musk is getting more x-risk reduction through spacex. miri's only idea of reduction is "total world domination by a nanny ai". and moratoriums.
18:54 < xentrac> I was walking behind a smoker on the sidewalk earlier today and I reflected on the fact that she was filling the air with nanoparticles
18:54 < maaku> xentrac: you are correct. year 2000 : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Nanotechnology_Initiative
18:54 < kanzure> non-smokers are also exhaling nanoparticles
18:55 < maaku> it's 2016 but still when I think "that was last decade" my brain fills in the 1990's
18:55 < kanzure> jokes on you, me i'm timelocked to 2008
18:56 < xentrac> are they, kanzure?  not very many
18:56 < kanzure> microbes don't count as nanoparticles, do they.... hmm.
18:56 < maaku> xentrac: I think the point is more how useless the definition of "nanotech" == "nanoscale" is
18:57 < kanzure> what about viruses?
18:57 < kanzure> viruses are often nanoparticles
18:58 < xentrac> when people exhale viruses, they are usually embedded in drops of sputum
18:58 < kanzure> bah
18:58 < maaku> kanzure: as to what I expected, I somehow thought that Sutskever would be heading up the ML portion of a larger AGI project
18:59 < maaku> I didn't realize this whole thing was actually just a sutskever's personal research budget
18:59 < maaku> So, suddenly much less interesting
18:59 < xentrac> maaku: what do you think about TensorFlow?
19:00 < maaku> I was about to say that with TensorFlow we already are getting access to most of the coolest tech coming out of Google Brain
19:01 < kanzure> what is the origin of the lack of neuroanatomy in these projects?
19:01 < maaku> So now the people that gave us TensorFlow are getting Musk's money instead of Larry and Sergei's. Personally I'm not sure that's an improvement.. Musk prob. would have done cooler things
19:01 < kanzure> apparently he wouldn't have done cooler things- he picked this instead.
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19:04 < maaku> kanzure: I think many wouldn't see the relevance of neuroanatomy to their work
19:04 < xentrac> I would say that with TensorFlow we are getting access to a little bit of the coolest tech coming out of Google Brain five years ago :]
19:04 < kanzure> maaku: really?
19:05 < kanzure> machine vision people seem to look at the visual cortex a bunch
19:05 < maaku> kanzure: though maybe I am projecting because I do not -- I have no interest in replicating human brains (there is a cheaper way to do that), but rather building intelligent machines that would easily solve problems humans struggle with
19:05 < kanzure> (although not all of them)
19:05 < maaku> machines that complement humans rather than replace them
19:05 < kanzure> maaku: did you see the stitched diagram i slapped together? http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/cognitiveconsilience/stitched-diagram.jpg
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19:05 < maaku> kanzure: they do, but they tend to ignore inconvenient facts
19:06 < maaku> e.g. the vision subsystem injects input into middle layers, not the bottom layer like every deepl learning architecture
19:07 < maaku> and "neural nets" actually don't have anything resembling the real properties of neurons...
19:08 < xentrac> also I have the impression that this is not true:
19:08 < kanzure> looking at neuroanatomy does not require replicating human brains
19:08 < xentrac> maaku> So now the people that gave us TensorFlow are getting Musk's money instead of Larry and Sergey's
19:08 < xentrac> I think most of the people who worked on TensorFlow are still at Google and still working on it
19:10 < maaku> kanzure: sure, but why should you care about the structure of the human brain if you are trying to solve an entirely different problem?
19:10 < kanzure> entirely different?
19:12 < maaku> kanzure: Spekaing for myself, I'm interested in general intelligence that is able to solve problems humans are particularly bad at
19:12 < maaku> architectural differences are a good thing in that respect
19:12 < kanzure> so your plan to do this is to have humans solve a problem that solves human-unsolvable problems?
19:13 < maaku> Yes
19:13 < maaku> But unsolvable is the wrong word -- just hard.
19:14 < maaku> E.g. something that takes 10,000 engineers working for 10 years might just take a reasonably sized datacenter 2 months.
19:14 < maaku> In other words, productivity improvements.
19:15 < maaku> Anyway. This is interesting watching from the outside because it resembles Blockstream .. a group of academics finds excessive funding to do basic research with a commercial component in a space a lot of people have emotional investments into.
19:15 < maaku> It's somewhat enlightening to be on this side of it.
19:17 < maaku> kanzure: I wonder what you would posit the defined goal of AGI would be?
19:17 < kanzure> besides total world domination?
19:18 < kanzure> human-level cognitive ability, including communication (i don't care if it doesn't pass the turing test)
19:18 < maaku> Why communication?
19:19 < kanzure> input/output is important
19:20 < maaku> Ok so communication as a way to impart goals onto the device, and return results
19:20 < kanzure> nah, just a way to help with debugging, a way for the software to acquire more information, a way to probe human knowledge
19:21 < maaku> Idk, my vision has always been some sort of formal language -- think Haskell, not English -- for user interaction and debugging
19:22 < kanzure> well i mean, all software can be "debugged" through traditional means
19:22 < maaku> it would need to be able to comprehend written language to acquire knowledge, but e.g. what Watson does is just fine. It doesn't need human-replica language centers
19:22 < kanzure> but inline/online feedback (through communication) is useful for other reasons
19:22 < kanzure> watson doesn't do what you think it does
19:23 < maaku> Watson-like, but that's all it needs to do I think.
19:25 < maaku> All I would need it to do is provide heuristic guidance for evolutionary search. I think Watson is sufficient for that.
19:27 < maaku> kanzure: We digress. I don't think building AGI to do things people are already particularly good at is very interesting, although it seems to interest many other people.
19:28 < maaku> I see it like this: imagine we had to build a nuclear reactor in 7-dimensional space. We *could* do that just by working out and trusting the math, but we'd not be very good at it
19:28 < maaku> Progress would be slow to say the least. AGI shines here because we can build an artificial nuclear engineer with intuition for 7-dimensional spaces
19:30 < maaku> Back to reality, I see parallels to both biology and molecular nanotechnology. For different reasons I think in both cases our efforts are hampered by deficiencies in the human mind
19:31 < maaku> In the case of biology is is simple the insane number of processes going on and everything interconnecting with everything else ... computer mediated research is the only way to progress, and AGI lets you take human biologists out of the loop so you can really progress at speed
19:35 < xentrac> maaku: user interaction in Lojban?
19:36 < maaku> xentrac: actually sortof yes. Not Lojban per se, but something like it
19:36 < xentrac> why not Lojban per se?
19:37 < maaku> it's a poor fit. it's basically first-order logic and doesn't natively support the sorts of constructions that would be necessary to efficiently convey information
19:37 < xentrac> oh, interesting
19:38 < maaku> but a logical language with constructs taken from probabalistic graphical models would fit the bill
19:38 < xentrac> have you thought about outlining such a thing? I have no idea what it would look like
19:39 < maaku> it's been on my list of things to do for years
19:39 < maaku> definately not the long pole in the tent at the moment however
19:39 < maaku> I've tried to interest others in taking a stab at it, without success
19:43 < maaku> Attacking it from the other direction, this is also what you would get if you took probabalistic programming languages and added context and ambiguity
19:44 < xentrac> I mean it sounds like a really interesting idea but I don't understand your idea well enough to take a stab at it
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21:41 < maaku> xentrac: The idea is quite simple. Most AGI projects involve some sort of knowledgebase, which is in latest incarnations a graph structure with probabalistic weights
21:42 < maaku> This graph encodes knowledge, including relationships between concepts and meta-level data like how a concept was learned or what evidence there is for it
21:43 < kanzure> i forgot how much i disagree with you about this topic
21:43 < maaku> The language would be a direct linear serialization of this graph structure
21:43 < maaku> kanzure: I find your own views equally puzzling
21:44 < kanzure> you consider my views wrong, but i don't think you are puzzled by them
21:46 < kanzure> i attribute some functionality to human brain matter that i am interested in either simulating or emulating through non-brain materials, and you simply are not...
21:46 < maaku> no, I am confused. i do not consider it a wrong approach to work towards brain emulation. that is a necessary component of uploading
21:47 < kanzure> it is also useful even in scenarios without uploading
21:47 < maaku> yeah see that's what i'm confused about. to me it is like an aeronautical engineer in 1902 trying to make flying machines with flapping wings and feathers
21:48 < kanzure> i hate bird airplane analogies. i absolutely fucking hate them. birds work, and so do airplanes.
21:48 < maaku> yes, but airplanes are easier to design and reliably build than birds
21:49 < maaku> s/build/engineer/
21:49 < kanzure> so?
21:50 < kanzure> i also hate the analogy that computation is like fixed wing lift; it assumes the outcome.
21:50 < maaku> I don't want to make human-identical intelligences. I've already done that twice. I want to solve prolem X in as highly leveraged a way as possible.
21:50 < kanzure> we already know that computation is necessary for information processing capacity. it's a completely useless observation.
21:51 < kanzure> so making "computation" fixed-wing is retarded; the brain is doing "computation" too, you know.
21:51 < kanzure> there is no guarantee that brain simulation or brain emulation will produce "identical intelligence".
21:51 < kanzure> so that does not seem like a concern.....
21:53 < kanzure> also, you have done the physical manifestation biology brain thing; software as you know is much more highly scalable and deployable, testable and copyable.
21:53 < kanzure> and you don't have to feel as bad about performing dangerous experiments on 'em
21:58 < maaku> kanzure: Here's what I want: a nanofactory, a complete mapping of the human proteome and all related biological processes, and the ability to reliably make arbitrary changes thereof using said nanotechnology on the scale of days/weeks not years
21:58 < maaku> oh, and I want it in the next 40 years or else it's a moot point anyway
21:59 < kanzure> what do you consider a proteome map to be?
22:00 < maaku> the complete expression of the human genome, including the general location, function, lifecycle, and failure modes of every protien
22:01 < maaku> and by extension, how they come together to form cells, tissue, human beings
22:01 < kanzure> so all protein-protein interactions yes/no?
22:01 < kanzure> just curious
22:02 < maaku> i suppose so yes
22:03 < maaku> I don't actually give a damn about AI in any intrinsic way, unlike most people of the field. It just seems like the only viable pathway to achiving the above within the time constraints and without a trillion dollars.
22:04 < maaku> "Solve the entire field of human biology" is a task I don't know how to even attempt in a single lifetime.
22:05 < maaku> "Build an artificial biologist and then scale it" on the other hand seems plausible.
22:06 < kanzure> your biological goals are surely not unlimited knowledge, but rather some specific outcomes, ya?
22:07 < maaku> Yes. I mean unlimited capability to acquire knowledge, not all knowledge already aquired.
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22:11 < maaku> Human beings aren't actually good at doing science. It took a heck of a long time to figure it out as a species, and even individually it takes many years of grad school or practical experience to be effective.
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22:12 < kanzure> most of that effectiveness delay is due to incredibly high inefficiencies in the existing education system. it's not like the system was designed for optimization..... see john gatto stuff.
22:13 < maaku> That is true, but our brains are also pretty shitty reasoning engines, much better suited to forming superstitious beliefs or replaying cached wrong answers
22:14 < maaku> People like you and me and the other fine people of this channel and the 0.01% of people that become truly impactful scientists or engineers are the exceptions (numbers pulled out of hat)
22:15 < maaku> And not because we were born that way but because we beat the odds and forced ourselves to learn proper habits re: rigor and such
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22:16 < maaku> So, my thesis: it's probably a better idea to look at how an ideal artificial scientist would reason, and implement that, than try to smash together a bunch of biologically inspired neural networks to make another error-prone superstitious reasoner
22:18 < nmz787> maaku: idk about "not being good at science" if I was some scientist's apprentice starting when I was 8 or 10, I would have been at the prime age to start working on ideas
22:18 < nmz787> ideas/problems
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22:20 < maaku> nmz787: Idk how old you are but I assume you're an adult. So you just said it would take decades of apprenticeship to become an effective scientist.
22:21 < maaku> If it was actually something we were truly good at, it'd be like breathing.
22:21 < maaku> Or hey, something reasonably complex: walking.
22:22 < maaku> It's an irony of psychology: we only think about and are conscious of the things we are not good at. We think hard about the stuff we are terrible at.
22:25 < kanzure> superstitious brain matter seems to do a lot of really interesting things that we don't know how to do on computers yet
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22:56 < nmz787> maaku: no I was more saying I would have been an effective apprentice-scientist right away at that age.
23:01 < nmz787> maaku: we didn't really need to think about walking before we were ready/able to start replicating it (i.e. when materials light and strong enough and motors/pneumatics/hydraulics that had enough power density, etc)
23:01 < nmz787> we were thinking a lot about weapons to kill wolves
23:01 < nmz787> or for food
23:02 < nmz787> or maybe some medical doctors over the years thought about it
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23:03 < nmz787> regarding surgery and birth anomalies
23:03 < nmz787> or disease
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