--- Log opened Thu Jan 14 00:00:04 2016
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00:57 < jrayhawk> kanzure: re: ikiwiki access: no; you could probably fake it imperfectly enough to throw indexing bots off your trail with some apache directives on the relevant paths.
00:59 < jrayhawk> But cgit and ikiwiki.cgi can probably be made to expose stuff with by using POST to feed it variables.
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02:27 < archels> "[...] for 52 years now, people thought CAD was an acronym for computer-aided design. But it is time to face facts: It really stands for computer-aided documentation."
02:27 < archels> that's a cute take on it
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04:25 < chris_99> this is awesome https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/a-major-step-forward-in-horological-additive-manufacturing-christoph-laimers-3d-printed-tourbillon
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06:01 < JayDugger> Good morning, everyone.
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07:09 < maaku> xentrac justanotheruser: everything that is wrong with AIXI
07:10 < maaku> AIXI is basically "exhaustive/brute-force search for a solution". AIXItl is "make it technically computable by cutting off the brute-force search at some limit"
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07:11 < maaku> AIXI is of approximately zero interest to making an AGI because it is incomputable
07:12 < maaku> AIXI-tl makes itself computable simply by setting a watchdog timer and terminating ... not interesting
07:12 < maaku> it does nothing of interest to actually make sure that what is computed in the time available is of any relevance, and therefore would be hideously inefficient
07:13 < maaku> and, no surprise, it's a publishable achievement when AIXI-tl is able to be used to solve even the simplest real world problems
07:14 < maaku> xentrac: what are you trying to do that would have you look at AIXI?
07:15 < poppingtonic> Even more inefficient would be doing inference on mcmc or particle cascade approximations of AIXItl's output.
07:16 < poppingtonic> Also, AIXItl can't model itself as a part of the environment.
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07:31 < poppingtonic> But it's not a waste of time to study it.
07:33 < pasky> I also kinda like it as a theoretically AI-complete model that might be an inspiration for useful-something
07:33 < pasky> as long as you're sure to understand that it's very far from applied research
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09:36 < kanzure> CVE-2016-0777 - openssh leaks your private key to compromised boxes, time to upgrade
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10:42 < kanzure> various vidoes https://www.tunnelsup.com/online-security-conferences/
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10:54 < justanotheruser> maaku: I heard a rumor you're working on your own AGI system?
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11:02 < maaku> justanotheruser: yes
11:02 < maaku> for some definition of "working"
11:03 < xentrac> maaku: basically pasky's take
11:04 < maaku> justanotheruser: bitcoin/blockstream tends to take priority ... but that's really just to provide leverage to feed forward into an AGI-centered transhumanist project
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11:04 < justanotheruser> Is this the point where I suggest you make blockchain based AI?
11:04  * maaku shoots justanotheruser
11:04 < justanotheruser> lollll
11:05 < justanotheruser> Is there a public repo, or papers, or is the project still in its  infancy
11:06 < maaku> in all seriousness people worried about AGI x-risk should be working on bitcoin now. we are -today- working on verifiable computing technology in adversarial environments while there is nothing but money on the line
11:07 < justanotheruser> Yes, it would suck for an edge case to kill all humans
11:08 < xentrac> maaku: that's a very good point
11:08 < xentrac> maaku: how do you feel about the hardware and OS security landscape?
11:08 < maaku> justanotheruser: Much better for an edge case to just result in theft and litigation!
11:08 < xentrac> I finally installed a Ⓑ client
11:09 < xentrac> well.  I'm still 30 weeks behind on the blockchain
11:11 < maaku> justanotheruser: also by happenstance the generalized script2.0 tech that people like gmaxwell and myself are interested in (it's my current research focus at blockstream) happens to overlap very nicely with the requirements for a base VM language in my AGI design
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11:12 < maaku> xentrac: one of the things I'm involved with is open hardware and fully verified platforms
11:12 < xentrac> so what's the state of the world?
11:13 < xentrac> my impression is "we are up shit creek" but maybe there are things I'm not seeing
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11:14 < xentrac> not, any more, because we don't have the formal methods, but because we don't have access to manufacturing facilities
11:15 < kanzure> if you are okay with large feature sizes then manufacturing is slightly more doable as a homebrew project
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11:17 < xentrac> I guess more generally I mean "because most people working on hardware are not working on open or verifiable hardware"
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11:21 < maaku> RISC-V is looking like a good basis for full stack verification
11:23 < xentrac> maaku: what does the possible paper path from verified Chisel to physical silicon look like?
11:23 < maaku> Complicated :)
11:24 < xentrac> does that mean "infeasible to make verifiable"?
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11:24 < pasky> I'd expect it to be more fruitful for now to focus on making the thing actually generally intelligent in some rudimentary sense rather than work on vm languages etc.
11:25 < maaku> Oh I agree I'm not an x-risker
11:26 < maaku> But such VM languages is my day job and I've long since learned the value of double dipping work
11:27 < xentrac> :D
11:30 < Diablo-D3> ssh client bug: http://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20160114142733
11:34 < maaku> Such a VM is needed for my agi design regardless of x-risk
11:36 < maaku> It is a good target for evolutionary search over program space guided by reasoning
11:37 < xentrac> a verifiable-computing VM, maaku?
11:37 < xentrac> Or what kind of a VM?
11:40 < kanzure> a verified virtual machine that runs other verified software
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11:41 < xentrac> well, so these are two different approaches
11:41 < kanzure> unfortunately i would have to say i am an x-risker, i'm just the other side of it (the one that everyone else seems to be worried about)
11:42 < xentrac> Bitcoin Script runs on a *verifiable* VM, in the sense that the computation gets replicated on other nodes, and they stochastically vote on whether to accept the results of the computation
11:42 < nmz787_i> xentrac: open hardware is only closed if you're not on the inside
11:42 < xentrac> in theory you could have multiple independent implementations of that VM so that a bug in one of the VMs would be caught by the others when they tried to replicate the computation
11:42 < xentrac> although AFAIK nobody does
11:43 < nmz787_i> I mean non-open
11:43 < xentrac> but that's different from a *verified* VM where you've formally proven that the implementation fulfills its specification
11:43 < xentrac> nmz787_i: ah, that makes much more sense :)
11:43 < xentrac> I don't think it's actually true though because nobody is on all the insides
11:44 < nmz787_i> I work at Intel
11:44 < xentrac> You probably know a lot of things I don't, so I could be wrong
11:44 < nmz787_i> but yeah, super big company, would take whole career to even get a decent overview as well as insight to innovate on ALL the processes
11:45 < kanzure> why would you need to innovate on everything?
11:45 < nmz787_i> hplus yo
11:45 < maaku> Hah! I'm with kanzure. Destroy humanity! (and maybe replace it with something better)
11:46 < nmz787_i> just name that AI humanity, and its still hplus
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11:47 < maaku> Anyhow, my AGI design involves de novo concept learning using evolutionary search, guided by its knowledgebase.
11:47 < nmz787_i> .wik silicaphobic
11:47 < yoleaux> nmz787_i: Sorry, I couldn't find article.
11:47 < maaku> "Guided by its knowledgebase" means probabalistic reasoning providing heuristics to guide search
11:48 < maaku> "Verified software" means proving properties about code, which is a specific application of program reasoning. A VM designed to be easy to prove properties about is generally easy to reason about the behavior of programs, which makes it an easy base language for evolutionary search
11:48 < kanzure> the other day you mentioned that you find humans too superstitious. but even with high levels of superstition, they seem to still do interesting computations that we have not yet figured out how to make computers do. doesn't this support the idea of reverse engineering some more?
11:48 < kanzure> also, grounding problem stuff goes here
11:50 < maaku> kanzure: This may be my own ignorance, but I sincerely don't know any neocortical algorithms that we can't do better or have ideas for doing better on a computer
11:50 < kanzure> what is a neocortical algorithm?
11:50 < maaku> I am interested in the old brain and expect to learn quite a bit from studies of that, including how our emotions work fundamentally
11:50 < maaku> *emotions and drives
11:50 < maaku> kanzure: things done by the neocortex
11:51 < kanzure> neocortex has not been enough, so far, based on previous fidelity/resolution of simulations
11:52 < maaku> kanzure: as you know my goal is to build an 'artificial scientist' / 'artificial engineer' . to THAT end I do not expect anything interesting to come out of brain science
11:54 < kanzure> what level of evidence would be required to convince you that the brain reverse engineering strategy is better?
11:55 < maaku> evidence that human beings are actually good at doing science :\
11:55 < kanzure> so far we are better than known computational implementations
11:55 < kanzure> so.....
11:55 < cluckj> we're the only ones doing it afaik
11:55 < kanzure> indeed.
11:55 < kanzure> well there's some partial implementations
11:55 < kanzure> some weird stuff. like robot labs. but they have extremely limited scopes.
11:56 < maaku> kanzure: not really. human beings augmented with non-human components do science -- we have methods and procedures external to ourselves that force good outcomes and censor bad behavior
11:56 < kanzure> we do it better than a dog, and better than a markov bot.
11:57 < maaku> i think we are talking past each other
11:57 < cluckj> the machines we do science with don't have the same kind of agency that humans do
11:57 < maaku> i just mean simple things like scientific rigor
11:57 < kanzure> maaku: i think standards for convicing evidence is completely fair game.
11:57 < cluckj> and we kinda....make those machines
11:57 < maaku> that's not something that comes naturally to humans and is something we struggle hard with
11:57 < maaku> cluckj: so we're fully general. that doesn't mean we're *good* at it
11:58 < cluckj> I feel like "good" needs a point of comparison
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12:00 < maaku> cluckj: i can build a machine learning program to identify people by gait or voice. doesn't mean I'm good at it
12:00 < kanzure> yes, so i think "evidence that humans are OK at it" is not a good response.
12:00 < kanzure> identification is a falsehood- any data can mislead a program into identifying people by gait....
12:01 < maaku> kanzure: but if we do something well by building external processes ... then all i'm saying is cut humans out of the loop and we can move even faster
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12:34 < xentrac> maaku: I agree with you about verified software, but what's the connection with script2.0?
12:36 < xentrac> (maybe you've published notes somewhere on this that I should be reading instead of asking about it?)
12:36 < xentrac> kanzure: is superstition the same as overfitting?
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12:51 < pasky> maaku: I've been doing genetic programming and evolution a bit on and off and my lesson learned is that there's vast prior art and a lot to learn and *still* it's not useful for really high-dimensional problems and very tricky to get to work otherwise
12:51 < pasky> so I hope you have some pretty clever ideas about how to make your evolutionary search work
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13:00 < pasky> meanwhile, reading list while your models are training or evolving - http://phocks.org/stumble/creepy/
13:01 < xentrac> pasky: I was surprised to read in https://courses.cs.washington.edu/courses/csep573/11wi/lectures/04-lsearch.pdf yesterday that GAs don't in general perform better than hill climbing with random restarts
13:13 < pasky> while that pdf is loading, what do you mean by "in general"?
13:13 < maaku> xentrac: the need to verify the safety (software properties) of a contract before signing
13:13 < maaku> e.g. can this script steal my money
13:14 < maaku> pasky: nothing complex, just MOSES
13:14 < maaku> pasky: the key is to not have an achitecture that relies on one mechanism for everything ;)
13:14 < maaku> evolutionary program learning works for limited tasks. use other stuff for other tasks
13:16 < pasky> so exactly what nontrivial tasks does evolutionary program learning work on?
13:18 < pasky> xentrac: (for functions that aren't too highdimensional nor too lowdimensional, say 100-1000D, and have a very rugged landscape, methods based on genetic algorithms like BIPOP-CMA-ES are state-of-art; I think that's the most positive statement one can make about GA applicability)
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13:21 < pasky> this is roughly the area where the popular fancy GA applications like antennas, mirrors, PCB routing and solar system trip planning fall
13:21 < pasky> but it's fairly specific anyway
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13:36 < nmz787_i1> has some interesting links, that are at least handy to be co-located on a single page:http://hackaday.com/2016/01/13/sourcing-your-cnc-tools-in-2016-build-them/
13:56 < FourFire> xentrac, making yourself bulletproof?
13:56 < FourFire> >  for implanting cloth under your chest skin, perhaps instead consider bio-compatible plastics
13:58 < nmz787_i1> there was a prior synbio art project that did something with transgenic spider silk
13:58 < FourFire> ><Diablo-D3> and the problem with a lot of academic brute force optimization work seems the computer keeps finding solutions that do what you want by the rules you gave it, but are not useful solutions because it breaks other constraints you didn't know you had until it broke them
13:59 < FourFire> semesl ike a good way to Learn.
14:01 < kanzure> xentrac: superstition is... well maybe it's the same. see also: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/ai/The%20evolution%20of%20superstitious%20and%20superstition-like%20behaviour.pdf
14:04 < FourFire> > <xentrac> my impression is "we are up shit creek" but maybe there are things I'm not seeing
14:04 < FourFire> My impresson as well
14:05 < FourFire> I'm slightly exasperated that noone is picking the free money off the floor too ...
14:05 < FourFire> or only a very few people are picking up only a bit of it
14:08 < kanzure> xentrac: re: poor performance of GAs, consider using "lexicase selection" (selection based on multiple competing objective/utility functions)
14:08 < kanzure> this is a topic that the beacon-center.org people wake up in the middle of the night about
14:09 < kanzure> pasky: ref for failure of genetic algorithms to design antennas? i seem to recall matt campbell doing automatic antenna geometry design based on a* search algorithm.
14:14 < maaku> up shit creek regarding what?
14:19 < kanzure> luke-jr leaked recently that mindspillage is gmaxwell (and not kat walsh) http://gnusha.org/logs/mindspillage.txt
14:20 < fenn> interesting.. i thought they had said more than that
14:21 < kanzure> i'm guessing that luke-jr is wrong though :|
14:22 < kanzure> https://pwnaccelerator.github.io/2016/sshbleed.html
14:23 < maaku> pretty sure i've seen gmaxwell and mindspillage together in the same room :)
14:23 < kanzure> yes but i haven't seen all *three* of you together in the same room
14:24 < fenn> yes but (insert undecidable paraconsistent statement here)
14:24 < kanzure> i can see that fenn is skilled at this
14:24 < maaku> ah well you should have been at the office yesterday ;)
14:24 < kanzure> you're aware that i don't work for you guys, right?
14:24 < kanzure> i know it's hard to keep track :D
14:25 < maaku> do'h!
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14:57 < fenn> from mindspillage.org: "Stealing a great statement from my partner Greg Maxwell (who is a cryptographer): “Information wants to be free” is the truth. "
15:00 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/gmaxwell-bitcoin-selection-cryptography/
15:00 < kanzure> " There was this rallying call, "information wants to be free". And I knew in my bones that this was true. We were going to use computers, which turn everything into information, and we would use networks to hook all of the computers together and we would change the world. We were going to change the power balances, make more people more empowered and everyone would have access to the world's knowledge and they would all fulfill their ...
15:00 < kanzure> ... potential. That's a very political take on something that I now think in fact is better described as a law of nature. This is not just that I want information to be free; no, information really does want to be free. It is fundamental that information will percolate out into every little nook and cranny, and you can't control it. The result is that often bad things happen because information wants to be free. Sunlight is the ultimate ...
15:00 < kanzure> ... solvent, but solvents corrode. So my email wants to be read by the NSA. When I try to login to my server, it can't tell me from you, because you can just replay my login. And now you're logged in as me. When you go and browse the internet, people learns how it works. They see inside your mind what used to be completely private. When I go to research something, marketers can send out cheap spam, and that spam is just as visible as the ...
15:00 < kanzure> ... information I seek. If I want to build a digital cash system, I can't, because information is perfectly copyable. And all copies are just as good. Money that you can just copy is not much of a money at all. So you have an environment where there are powerful parties that have more ability to use this fundamental nature of information, and this goal of everyone being more empowered may not come true."
15:01 < kanzure> btw, gmaxwell does not claim to be a cryptographer, in fact i think he always tends to drag a disclaimer nearby.
15:01 < kanzure> oops maybe not. i don't have a quote from him on this.
15:02 < fenn> * actually an ubercryptographer
15:02 < kanzure> "i like to call myself more like a mathologist"
15:03 < fenn> it's probably actually his backlash against "moon math"
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15:28 < pasky> kanzure: i claimed the opposite; it's one of the tasks in suitable parameter range
15:28 < pasky> no ref though, besides googling
15:29 < maaku> that's a great quote from greg
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17:22 < xentrac> FourFire: right, for making myself somewhat bullet-resistant; bulletproof is too much to ask for
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17:24 < xentrac> kanzure: I am pretty sure that when I met mindspillage she was Kat Walsh and not gmaxwell, although they are not completely unrelated :)
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17:39 < nmz787_i> xentrac: you want it under the skin because??? you want to be able to tan while having security?
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18:01 < xentrac> nmz787: so I can't be coerced to remove it
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18:08 < kanzure> i'm sure a judge somewhere has demanded compulsory surgery
18:08 < kanzure> oh, i bet that's happened in medical cases. so there you go.
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18:26 < xentrac> it happened frequently for eugenic reasons, as you should well know.
18:27 < kanzure> indeed! i'm not sure your anti-surgery armor is going to work out favorably...
18:27 < kanzure> oh right, you wanted surgery as the minimum barrier
18:27 < xentrac> exactly
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18:29 < xentrac> no "don't you think it's a bit of an inappropriate statement to wear a bulletproof vest to this formal dinner?" or even "please, sir, remove your vest before entering the courtroom" or even "I've got a bad guy here in my scope, looks like he's wearing some kind of bulky vest, approaching the gate, permission to engage please?"
18:31 < xentrac> coercion takes many forms
18:33 < xentrac> very few of them are as expensive per person as surgery
18:57 < AdrianG> compulsory surgery?
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18:59 < xentrac> no thanks
19:01 < drethelin> http://www.israel-catalog.com/military-outdoor-gear/concealable-body-armor/bullet-proof-vest-sale/lightweight-bullet-proof-waistcoat-level-3-a
19:01 < drethelin> they make bulletproof vests that look formal nowadays
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21:59 < Diablo-D3> http://blog.robertelder.org/virtual-memory-with-256-bytes-of-ram/
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--- Log closed Fri Jan 15 00:00:05 2016