--- Log opened Fri Jan 15 00:00:05 2016
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00:49 < nmz787_i> Diablo-D3: interesting link
00:54 < maaku> drethelin ooh I want
01:22 < xentrac> "Yudkowsky is a controversial figure. Mostly self-taught — he left school after eighth grade — he has written openly about polyamory and blogged at length about the threat of a civilization-ending A.I."
01:23 < xentrac> I think the NYT is missing the point a bit here
01:24 < xentrac> I don't think the people among whom Eliezer is controversial would even think of "writing openly about polyamory" as a possible reason to argue about him
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01:35 < FourFire> xentrac, what's the most controversial thing about him from your perspective.
01:39 < xentrac> well, I've never argued about him, myself
01:40 < xentrac> but the things I see other people arguing about are whether he is arrogant and whether he is ignorant
01:41 < xentrac> and of course kanzure thinks he's putting AI research in danger, but he's probably nearly the only person who thinks that
01:41 < xentrac> (except for the ones who think that's a good idea)
01:41 < xentrac> oh, and I guess I've seen some arguments about his attitudes about rape
01:42 < xentrac> what do you think?
01:44 < FourFire> attitudes about rape?
01:45 < FourFire> I only know of one example where he wrote a story where he postulates that the future can be weird and have weird values, like "nonconsensual sex" being socially accepted.
01:48 < FourFire> things can get sticky if you start claiming that every meaningful opinion held by characters in a story is also held by it's author.
01:48 < FourFire> but then I don't follow EY's social networking drama.
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02:03 < nmz787_i> .tell chris_99 fun idea: edge-detect video, trace edges with bright laser on wall for some low-res impromptu TV/movie showing
02:03 < yoleaux> nmz787_i: I'll pass your message to chris_99.
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02:11 < nmz787_i> hi chris_99
02:11 < chris_99> hey
02:11 < yoleaux> 10:03Z <nmz787_i> chris_99: fun idea: edge-detect video, trace edges with bright laser on wall for some low-res impromptu TV/movie showing
02:12 < nmz787_i> like a single-color laser
02:12 < chris_99> heh that could be cool :)
02:13 < nmz787_i> hmm, I feel like I should order 10 $2 esp8266 just to have around
02:16 < nmz787_i> I also sort of want to hold out for the esp32
02:29 < chris_99> heh, yeah i've got a number of the esp8266-12
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02:34 < chris_99> i managed to get some output from the keyboard from a coil + usb sound card, i'm not sure if 44.1kHz is high enough yet to actually make any sense of the output - https://www.anfractuosity.com/projects/keyboard-hacking/
02:40 < nmz787_i> I heard about this $5 radar module earlier tonight http://www.rfbeam.ch/products/k-lc1a-transceiver/
02:41 < nmz787_i> apparently this tin-can radar guy was using a sound card for acquisition
02:42 < nmz787_i> http://glcharvat.com/tincan/
02:44 < chris_99> ooh cool
02:44 < chris_99> you can use soundcards for vlf recpetion too apparently
02:49 < nmz787_i> FMCW is the best for low-cost, since post-processing/DSP is the magic: http://hackaday.com/2014/02/24/guest-post-try-radar-for-your-next-project/#attachment_115574
02:50 < nmz787_i> "For an FMCW radar, a CW oscillator is frequency modulated with a linear ramp. In other words, the CW oscillator starts at one frequency and ramps-up to a second over a relatively long period of time (0.5-10 uS). This waveform is radiated out of the transmit antenna towards the target scene. Some of this waveform is fed to the receiver mixer. What is scattered off the target is amplified by the LNA and fed into the receive mixer where
02:50 < nmz787_i> mixed with the transmit waveform. The mixing product results in a low frequency (KHz range) beat tone that is proportional to range. The higher the frequency of beat tone the further the target. "
02:50 < nmz787_i> but then you can also do doppler spectroscopy or something
02:50 < nmz787_i> basically targets will have unique doppler shifts, so you can distinguish them
02:54 < archels> nmz787_i: I am using one of those doppler modules, but mine's very noisy. any idea where to grab these rfbeam ones?
02:57 < archels> (or any decent ones)
03:04 < nmz787_i> no idea, but that hackaday article also mentions them
03:04 < chris_99> nmz787_i, did you see the tourbillon (sp?) watch 3d printed?
03:05 < nmz787_i> I guess start on google and here: http://www.rfbeam.ch/contact/
03:05 < nmz787_i> oh, no
03:05 < nmz787_i> lemme look it up
03:06 < chris_99> https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/a-major-step-forward-in-horological-additive-manufacturing-christoph-laimers-3d-printed-tourbillon
03:07 < nmz787_i> I might try to convince this guy I know to try building a metal powder 3d printer (requires post sintering)
03:08 < chris_99> neat
03:10 < nmz787_i> http://hackaday.com/2016/01/14/simplifying-metal-3d-printing-by-complicating-it/
03:11 < nmz787_i> juri_: did you see this http://hackaday.com/2016/01/14/simplifying-metal-3d-printing-by-complicating-it/    ??
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03:19 < archels> nmz787: I spent some time optimising this USB audio streaming interface for the doppler sensor, before realising that the noise was not due to my circuit but due to the doppler module itself
03:19 < archels> anyway, just got PCBs in for the final version, should post about this in a few weeks
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06:55 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Soft%20materials%20in%20neuroengineering%20for%20hard%20problems%20in%20neuroscience%20-%202015.pdf
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07:07 < juri_> nmz787: cute, but i do not see examples of their work. ;)
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10:44 < FourFire> > <pasky> so I hope you have some pretty clever ideas about how to make your evolutionary search work
10:44 < FourFire> I've gotten some tips from someone who claims to have found a 3 bit adder with only 38 nand gates
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10:55 < maaku> pasky: I think you're missing the intent. every approach to general learning has a specific domain of excellence and falls flat outside of that
10:56 < maaku> I'm taking an integrative approach, which means a patchwork of various learning algorithms which attempt to work together to cover the entire domain
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11:09 < pasky> so essentially what opencog is
11:10 < pasky> FourFire: sure! also notice that it falls in the broad category i outlined, and notice that evolving anything general-purpose doesn't :)
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11:15 < maaku> pasky: what opencog should be perhaps. mostly the CogPrime design with some components substituted
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12:14 < nmz787_i> juri_: did you not see the PDF? https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5Tl7_OJADLwMWo4Y0ZxdHdOVGc/view
12:16 < juri_> nmz787_i: nice. that looks like work worth reproducing.
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14:50 < pasky> maaku: I think we share the same goals; but my philosophy is to try solving some "hard" specialized tasks that'd be useful components of this system first, because (i) some of the components (at state-of-art) clearly are orders of magnitude off from what's needed; (ii) this might make some money which would set up a positive financial feedback loop
14:51 < pasky> (iii) if i fail at agi, i'll still have done something useful per se
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15:14 < Alcyius> Unintended problem of self-driving vehicles: When they're adopted widely, eventually, old people will just start arriving at places having expired on the ride.
15:15 < Alcyius> Could you set the cars to monitor vital signs and self-direct to the nearest hospital?
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15:18 < nmz787_i> Alcyius: that's a silly question, of course you could
15:18 < Alcyius> Yeah you're right
15:18 < Alcyius> I can just imagine the reactonaries though
15:18 < Alcyius> "NSA monitoring your vital signs through your car, more on page 5"
15:19 < nmz787_i> I'm not sure if I would want my parents to arrive at my house dead, or have a hospital coroner call me and tell me they died mid-trip
15:19 < nmz787_i> meh, I assume the NSA is already doing that
15:19 < TMA> the question is more a business/legal one: who will pay the most for (nearly) dead person delivery? the hospital? the undertaker?
15:19 < Alcyius> TMA, why would they need to be "delivered", if it's their own car, it can take them where they need to go
15:19 < nmz787_i> the blackmarket organ transplant market that hacked all the cars that month
15:20 < Alcyius> Get to the hospital, be declared dead, put back in your car to go to the morgue.
15:20 < Alcyius> Someone calls your next of kin
15:21 < nmz787_i> Alcyius: I saw a weird quote that assumed self-driving cars would reduce personal car ownership... which seems silly too
15:21 < TMA> Alcyius: you are assuming ownership of the car driving software -- that would probably not be the case. software is licensed not sold and the terms are mostly unilateraly set by the licensor (adhesion contract, blah blah)
15:21 < nmz787_i> I don't want to sit in a public bus or taxi because sometimes they're gross
15:22 < Alcyius> nmz787_i, also, those scenairios also predict that cars will just merge back into traffic and go to get more people, which makes powering them a bit more problematic than normal
15:22 < Alcyius> But with auto-service gas stations, maybe not so much
15:22 < Alcyius> I still think that most people who can will have their own
15:22 < nmz787_i> you don't even need to fuel stations to be automated, just full-service with NFC credit card emitter near the fuel cap
15:22 < Alcyius> TMA, that's simple, require software providers to allow free transportation should the licensee die en route to a destination
15:23 < nmz787_i> or buy a car with customizable directives
15:23 < Alcyius> Also, when cars today are commandeered for emergency use, the government doesn't have to pay the software company to use it
15:24 < nmz787_i> I have seriously been looking for completely mechanical vehicles for my next vehicle purchase
15:24 < Alcyius> That reminds me of something I was reading recently
15:24 < nmz787_i> the 4BT diesel engine is pretty fuel efficient and a popular swap... though it has bad emissions by todays standards
15:24 < TMA> isn't it like against one of the single digit amendments (no quartering of troops in peacetime)?
15:24 < Alcyius> TMA, that only applies to making people house troops
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15:25 < Alcyius> If there's say, a natural disaster, emergency response personnel can commandeer people and their vehicles/homes for the short term iirc
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15:25 < Alcyius> There are probably other cases
15:25 < nmz787_i> Alcyius: happens in movies all the time!
15:26 < nmz787_i> "I NEED this vehicle!!"
15:26 < Alcyius> http://aslme.org/media/downloadable/files/links/S/u/SupCS1135_4.pdf
15:26 < Alcyius> It's dependent on the state actually
15:28 < nmz787_i> I think the only 'new' vehicle that really interests me, that you can get in the USA... would be the tesla model X... but I would want a lift-kit installed, which I am not sure is (easily) possible, since it is likely (almost undoubtedly) a unibody with independent suspension
15:28 < Alcyius> nmz787_i, I'm on the waiting list for an Elio, which is all I honestly need
15:28 < nmz787_i> or something like a series-hybrid Ford F250
15:29 < nmz787_i> Alcyius: is that the one made in like Lousiana?
15:29 < Alcyius> Yeah, my mom is a close friend with the real estate mogul who is financing a lot of their stuff
15:30 < nmz787_i> "U.S. made by American workers at the former GM plant in Shreveport, Louisiana"
15:30 < TMA> I think that the situation will be similar (but worse) to the smartphone. You might own the electrons, protons and neutrons but you do not own their spatial arrangement (design, software, ... which is intellectual property)
15:33 < nmz787_i> seems like you could still hack your car like you can with your phone... but the laws if you get caught will probably be a LOT more harsh
15:33 < Alcyius> Give me a bit, I have a picture with the guy
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15:39 < Alcyius> I seem to have misplaced it
15:39 < Alcyius> Odd
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15:48 < Alcyius> Oh well, I'll get another one next time he visits town
15:48 < Alcyius> Oh yeah, got an MRI the other day.
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16:02 < FourFire> xentrac, awesome, I'd be interested in developing biologically extruded scales of--- strong but flexible material under the outermost layers of the skin, once I've completed/given up on my current longterm project
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16:07 < FourFire> > <pasky> FourFire: sure! also notice that it falls in the broad category i outlined, and notice that evolving anything general-purpose doesn't :)
16:08 < FourFire> not sure how relevant your categorization is, care to repeat it?
16:08 < FourFire> Plenty of specialized things which can be useful.
16:10 < pasky> 22:18 < pasky> xentrac: (for functions that aren't too highdimensional nor too lowdimensional, say 100-1000D, and have a very rugged landscape, methods based on genetic algorithms like BIPOP-CMA-ES are state-of-art; I think that's the most positive statement one can make about GA applicability)
16:11 < FourFire> ok, I'll check that with the guy.
16:24 < Alcyius> Self-driving cars w/microtransactions
16:32 < drethelin> why would you need microtransactions
16:32 < drethelin> are you driving like, a block?
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16:40 < Alcyius> drethelin, Pay $1 to pass the car in front of you
16:43 < Diablo-D3> https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn28786-comets-cant-explain-weird-alien-megastructure-star-after-all/
16:48 < superkuh> If the comet was pluto sized it could.
17:15 < Alcyius> http://www.laboratoryequipment.com/news/2016/01/nano-shells-deliver-molecules-tell-bone-repair-itself
17:15 < Alcyius> I love the comparison
17:16 < Alcyius> "It's similar to a new supervisor ordering an office cleaning crew to start constructing an addition to the building."
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17:35 < maaku> " he thinks even advanced aliens wouldn’t be able to build something capable of covering a fifth of a star in just a century"
17:35 < maaku> Oh ye of little faith!
17:40 < maaku> It seems quite reasonable that once Dyson sphere construction is progressing at enough of a pace that it causes noticable dimming, it could certainly be progressing at the rate of 0.2% per year
17:41 < maaku> When are people going to internalize the fact that progress is exponential, or at the very least geometric at the limits...
17:41 < Diablo-D3> well
17:41 < Diablo-D3> I hope we could get in contact with them
17:41 < Diablo-D3> maybe they could help us take apart jupiter and saturn and all the shit in the asteroid belt and oort blob
17:41 < Diablo-D3> and build one of our own
17:42 < maaku> pasky: what "hard" specialized tasks are you referring to? you mean in AGI or the larger hplus project?
17:42  * Diablo-D3 will never live to see anything cool =/
17:42 < drethelin> gotta get frozen bro
17:42 < drethelin> or do something cool yourself
17:42 < maaku> Diablo-D3: you signed up for Alcor yes?
17:43 < maaku> Diablo-D3: but hey man *I* call dibs on Jupiter
17:43 < maaku> you can have Saturn. or Uranus
17:43 < Diablo-D3> I don't believe in stuff like alcor
17:43 < Diablo-D3> it just seems like too much of a scam
17:43 < maaku> alcor ain't a scam. maybe it won't work, but there ain't no intentional fraud going on there
17:43 < Diablo-D3> yeah, but I think they know it wont work
17:44 < Diablo-D3> but they do it anyhow because people want to pay for that service
17:44 < Diablo-D3> they're hopeful, but you know how the world works
17:44 < Diablo-D3> the human race is just too fucking disorganized to be useful
17:44 < maaku> Diablo-D3: with other cryonics groups maybe, certainly that has been the case before. Alcor is quite transparent though and run by people that most definately do believe in it
17:44 < Diablo-D3> with the production output of the entire planet, there is no reason why we cant all have everything we ever wanted
17:44 < Diablo-D3> we could cure death in a century if we all got together and did it
17:45 < maaku> Diablo-D3: we could do in in 30 years. or at least achieve escape velocity...
17:45 < Diablo-D3> instead we have a bunch of assholes running wall street, another bunch of assholes uselessly tweeting #blakclivesmater, another bunch of assholes building empty cities in the middle of china
17:45 < Diablo-D3> ANOTHER bunch of assholes growing corn and soy and other useless weeds
17:45 < Diablo-D3> assholes everywhere
17:45 < maaku> hey man those empty cities power muh bitcoin miners!
17:46  * Diablo-D3 should just shut up, hes in a bad mood
17:46 < maaku> hahaha welcome to everyday man. the world's a shitty place.
17:46 < maaku> that's why i want to move to jupiter..
17:47 < Diablo-D3> well usually kanzure is around threatening to ban me
17:47 < Diablo-D3> so w/e
17:48 < pasky> maaku: in AGI; I focus on question answering (http://ailao.eu/yodaqa), right these days working on https://www.kaggle.com/c/the-allen-ai-science-challenge/
17:48 < maaku> i wonder if one could reasonably harvest resources to create computronium from coronal mass ejections
17:48 < maaku> probably not enough heavy elements
17:48 < Diablo-D3> like
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17:49 < Diablo-D3> the whole bad future shit where AI take over and murder all humans?
17:49 < Diablo-D3> Im not even sure if thats a bad thing
17:49 < Diablo-D3> if its sufficiently self-evolving and actually wants to preserve itself and spread amongst the stars
17:49 < Diablo-D3> its probably better off than the humans of today doing it
17:49 < maaku> Diablo-D3: you've found the right channel
17:49 < Diablo-D3> I look at the average people today
17:49 < Diablo-D3> I dont want them to leave earth
17:49 < Diablo-D3> I dont want them to pollute the universe with their stupidity
17:50 < pasky> btw someone here may find my slides with quick intro to memnns useful http://pasky.or.cz/pres/memnn.pdf though i'm not sure how well they actually work standalone
17:50 < Houshalter> that's hugely irresponsible. it wouldn't just kill humans, but all life in earth, and all other stars
17:50 < Houshalter> it would build a disneyworld with no children
17:50 < maaku> pasky: well I mean my development plan involves starting with basic math, physics, chemistry, engineering problems and working my way through the curriculum of an engineering degree
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17:51 < maaku> Houshalter has a fondness for humanity that we have not been able to shake ...
17:51 < Diablo-D3> Ive never had a fondness for humanity
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17:51 < Diablo-D3> I swear to god I have more in common with my cat than I do with other humans
17:52 < maaku> pasky: certainly start simple an solve progressively harder problems makes sense
17:52 < maaku> pasky: I just need the time and resources to actually work on it :\
17:52 < Diablo-D3> Humanity is just a bunch of self serving dicks, none of them interested in the greater good
17:52 < Diablo-D3> always jerking off their egos, at the cost of everyone else
17:53 < maaku> if someone else was wanting to work on a common framework I could spend some time organizing my thoughts since what I have is a bit out of date
17:53 < pasky> last year i was in tokyo for three months trying to make computers solve SAT-like physics questions; one surprising lesson learned was that there isn't even a good existing solution for unassisted solving of equation systems (!)
17:53 < Houshalter> i love my species. as a collective we are stupid and haven't figured out how to coordinate, but we've still done great thigns anyway. every year gets better and better
17:53 < pasky> all the mathematicas and other symbolic systems expect you to tell them exactly what to do and massage the equations
17:53 < maaku> pasky: all such systems bite off more than they can chew
17:54 < maaku> it's OKAY for there not to be a general system -- that's why you've got a dozen different architecturally different solvers (genetic algorithms, probabalistic reasoning, deep learning) all using the same data structure to share effort
17:54 < Diablo-D3> and re: solving
17:54 < Diablo-D3> you cant even solve most systems
17:54 < pasky> (iow, even when you reach a formal representation of the task, it's very hard to go from there; never mind getting from free input incl. diagrams etc. to the formal representation)
17:54 < Diablo-D3> because you have these weird subsets of math language
17:55 < Diablo-D3> it they were a language, there would be different dialects
17:55 < Diablo-D3> which as a programer, I dont understand why that exists
17:55 < maaku> pasky: i wish goertzel wasn't slightly cookoo, and opencog not a shitty codebase, because both get in the way of his general integrative design which has potential
17:55 < Diablo-D3> code is code is code, its all the same no matter what language I use
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17:56 < drethelin> lol
17:56 < maaku> Houshalter: maybe. i don't have such a progress-oriented view
17:56  * Diablo-D3 wishes he could just program himself to be happy.
17:56 < maaku> Houshalter: there are ways where we get shittier and shittier, or at least the same as time goes by
17:56 < maaku> it's a mixed bag
17:57 < Diablo-D3> maaku: well
17:57 < Diablo-D3> you want shitty?
17:57 < Diablo-D3> the entire silicon valley
17:57 < Diablo-D3> that entire fucking place should be burned to the ground
17:57 < maaku> A future where we remain an imperfect society of flawed beings is a pretty shitty future :\
17:57 < pasky> maaku: so, I think what you say sounds superficially nice, but I have no idea how would I actually *apply* what you say to any practical task; I suggest that you actually try :) take a week vacation and try to solve some class of problems, I think you'll find a lot of unexpected very hard hurdles to solving even much smaller subset of what you picked
17:57 < maaku> Diablo-D3: hey i live there! it's got some nice parts
17:58 < Diablo-D3> a bunch of useless shits that think shareholder value is an actual thing, that it actually exists, even as some third tier metric
17:58 < maaku> pasky: yup will do
17:58 < pasky> (that's another trouble, the variety of tasks there actually is even when you think you've got a well-defined subproblem is so astounding once you sit down and try to classify them)
17:58 < Diablo-D3> way at the bottom of the drop down scroll box you just put together with whatever popular web framework there is this week
17:58 < Diablo-D3> ruby coders: should all be shot
17:58 < Diablo-D3> node.js? them too
17:58 < Diablo-D3> and all the idiotic javascript shit? them too
17:58 < Diablo-D3> and anyone that uses bootstrap? yup
17:59 < Diablo-D3> and python for anything bigger than a shitty little script? them too
17:59 < Diablo-D3> anyone who doesnt sit down and think before they code? all put to death, each and every last one
17:59 < maaku> Houshalter: would be nice for you to specify sometime what the ideal distant future would be, in the time of juptier brains and such
17:59 < Diablo-D3> Im not saying your code has to be bug free
17:59 < Diablo-D3> but it should at least fucking make sense
18:00 < maaku> Diablo-D3: now you've wandered offtopic
18:00 < pasky> Diablo-D3 reminds me that a nice application of my sentence classifier might be a sort of "smart /ignore"
18:00 < Diablo-D3> Heh
18:00 < Diablo-D3> well, you know whos writing your fancy AIs?
18:00 < Diablo-D3> these people
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18:00 < Diablo-D3> so, just remember that.
18:01 < pasky> (if a person keeps flooding a channel with stuff and sometimes someone replies, you want to show just the particular message(s) the person replies to)
18:01 < Diablo-D3> pasky: I want the reverse
18:01 < Diablo-D3> if I ignore somebody
18:01 < pasky> there are guys working on this that have nice #ubuntu dataset or somethign
18:02 < Diablo-D3> anyone talking to them gets those messages ignored too
18:02 < Diablo-D3> so no <someone else> guy I ignored: yeah, but that isn't true, because you're an idiot
18:03 < Diablo-D3> and the more they talk to that guy, the more likely they just become completely ignored
18:03  * Diablo-D3 would pay money for such a system
18:04 < pasky> maaku: my general reservation to the opencog approach is that the bot (animat? ??) is useless for most purposes until it gets *really* smart, there aren't many good checkpoints while you are making progress
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18:05 < pasky> 'nite for now
18:05 < Houshalter> "ruby coders: should all be shot [etc]" jesus dude.
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18:09 < cluckj> zzz
18:09 < Houshalter2> maaku, "specify sometime what the ideal distant future would be, in the time of juptier brains and such" I really have no idea. Any attempt to design a utopia just ends up sounding creepy and undesirable. its something we will have to figure out when we get there
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18:11 < maaku> Houshalter2 then I'm confused about what you're doing here?
18:12 < maaku> What's the endgame?
18:13 < Houshalter2> build an FAI and then have it figure it out
18:13 < Houshalter2> live long enough to see it happen
18:15 < maaku> Okay... "Have it figure it "out is a little underspecified.
18:16 < Houshalter2> well that's the hard part of building FAI
18:16 < maaku> I'm pretty sure there is a circular dependence in there
18:17 < Houshalter2> i imagine it would start with an oracle that you can ask questions
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18:17 < Houshalter2> you could just ask such an AI what you should do, or what the best solution is to a problem
18:20 < maaku> Aha now were getting somewhere.
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18:20 < maaku> That is a reasonable approach. It is also not an FAI.
18:21 < maaku> I personally don't need an artificial psychologist to know what I want though.
18:25 -!- Houshalter2 is now known as Houshalter
18:28 < maaku> Houshalter : figure out what you want, then work towards that. It ain't that hard.
18:29 < maaku> In my experience FAI is a trap for those who don't know what they want.
18:29 < Houshalter> well an oracle could help you solve problems, including helping construct an FAI, or curing cancer, or taking over the world, or whatever
18:31 < maaku> Yup that's why I'm working on one.
18:33 < maaku> Except the FAI part. I find that part uninteresting. Frightening, actually.
18:34 < maaku> *undesirable
18:35 < Houshalter> no way around it though. eventually humans won't be the most powerful intelligences on earth.
18:36 < maaku> Depends on what you mean by human.
18:36 < maaku> Hplus is in the title of this channel
18:37 < maaku> Humans will not be limited by their biology forever.
18:37 < maaku> Whatever power you imagine an AI wielding, a human could as well.
18:43 < Houshalter> well not easily, and i'm not really sure they'd be human afterwards
18:45 < maaku> What ever definition of "human" you were using in that sentence I find uninteresting.
18:46 < maaku> They continue to exist with wants, desires, and needs.
18:49 < maaku> I'm not the same type of creature I was as a baby.
18:51 < maaku> Future planetary brain hive mind component derived from me will be even more different than I am from baby maaku. But it's still me.
18:58 < Houshalter> well all i can say is i don't want that. i don't think it would still be me, and even if it was i don't think it would be desirable
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20:14 < kanzure> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
20:14 < kanzure> so much cortisol
20:15 < justanotheruser> you're taking steroids?
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21:00 < drethelin> cortisol is a stress hormone
21:01 < drethelin> kanzure is probably freaking about how bitcoin is about to die
21:26 < kanzure> no this is just regular scheduled aaaaaaa taste of cortisol got to get it out of my mouth
21:27 < maaku> Houshalter: changes will be incremental. Each incremental change would be an improvement or I wouldn't make it. By induction , I will want my future self.
21:28 < maaku> The person I want to be now is not the person I wanted to be as a teenager. I consider that to be a good thing.
21:29 < maaku> It's people who want to stay frozen in time, or worse have some external all powerful entity enforce a frozen moral (a nightmare scenario) that I don't understand
21:30 < maaku> drethelin: you must be new to bitcoin
21:30 < maaku> Business as usual.
21:31 < kanzure> death is relative. there are many forms of survival that i am prepared to accept.
21:33 < lkjhfr> levels of survival
21:33 < kanzure> wtf google says this is a quote from the matrix?
21:33 < kanzure> huh....
21:34 < kanzure> "During their conversation, Neo claims that the machines cannot allow humanity to be destroyed as they are using them for power and thus could not survive if they were killed. In response, the Architect, although his face remains unmoved, states in a grave voice, "There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept.""
21:36 < lkjhfr> learning wouldn't make much sense if we were conscious of it at all times
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21:56 < Houshalter> maaku, you have no idea what you'd be changing into. just because you can make a change doesn't mean it's good. this isn't something to rush into without lots of planning and thought
21:57 < Houshalter> I believe that superintelligent humans would likely be bored, depressed, or wire headers. or some combination of them.
21:58 < drethelin> why
21:58 < drethelin> claim 1: there exist people who are both far more intelligent than you right now
21:58 < drethelin> claim 2: not all of these people are bored, depressed, or wireheading
21:59 < lkjhfr> because hhgttg
21:59 < drethelin> this implies there is a discontinuity at some theoretical level
21:59 < drethelin> past people who exist
21:59 < nmz787_i> Houshalter: I sort of only agree if we learned everything... and exhausted 'art'istic outlets... which seems like it could take almost infinitely long
21:59 < maaku> Houshalter every single day we are learning and "maturing" in various ways that make is totally different people over time. Why are you not freaked out over that?
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22:01 < nmz787_i> and most likely we would have to be at a hive-mind state of being, otherwise any one person would have too much communication lag or connectivity to bring all portions of the dataset into perspective at the same time
22:01 < kanzure> honestly there is a lot of value to be had from being extremely dumb while also running multiple copies or backups. this has nothing to do with intelligence.
22:01 < nmz787_i> so it would never seem complete
22:08 < Houshalter> drethelin, there are people who have higher iqs, but that's nothing compared to superintelligence
22:09 < Houshalter> maaku, i am. but i won't change inot a different person, even over a thousand years. i will learn a lot, but my brain structure and personality will be about the same
22:10 < Houshalter> going to superintelligence is just creating an entirely idfferent being that has your memories
22:10 < maaku> nmz787_i : the experience of artistic works are combinatorial. There is a practically infinite number of experiences to be had
22:10 < maaku> (You can change both the work and viewer)
22:10 < Houshalter> there might be an infinite number of experiences, but there is not an infinite amount of novelty
22:11 < Houshalter> humans crave novelty, not brute forcing the search space
22:11 < maaku> Houshalter I don't think you are as static as you think
22:12 < maaku> Houshalter : you can modify both the work and the set of experiences the viewer brings to it
22:13 < nmz787_i> maaku: yeah but practically doesn't compare well to (probably) infinite time to go through permutations... I think the lack of being able to keep everything  (i.e. the history of all prior permutations) would be limiting before you get to the end of the list
22:13 < maaku> Unfortunately our universe is finite :(
22:14 < Houshalter> not necessarily
22:14 < maaku> Houshalter: try having kids for example, or just falling deeply in love with someone. Alters you being entirely in a way which is incrementally good at each step
22:16 < maaku> I don't know what sort of planetary hive mind consciousness I will become in the millennia ahead of is, but I welcome it with open arms -- so long as *I* am in control of that future.
22:16 < maaku> At each step along the way.
22:17 < maaku> And my requirements now are not complicated. I don't want to die. I don't want my loved ones to die. And I want to remain in control of my own fate.
22:18 < nmz787_i> haha, well I bet some ppl go through hell having kids
22:18 < maaku> Don't need an FAI for that -- in fact an "friendly" AGI as sought by x-riskers is a danger to those goals
22:23 < justanotheruser>  /win 87
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22:30 < nmz787_i> http://newscenter.lbl.gov/2016/01/13/one-stop-shop-for-biofuels/
22:30 < nmz787_i> .title
22:30 < yoleaux> One-Stop Shop for Biofuels | Berkeley Lab
22:31 < nmz787_i> “Our new one-pot process for making cellulosic ethanol was enabled by the discovery and use of a renewable ionic liquid derived from amino acids that commercially available enzyme mixtures and organisms can tolerate,” says Simmons, a chemical engineer who is JBEI’s Chief Science and Technology Officer and heads the institute’s Deconstruction Division. “This eliminates the need for separations, recoveries and other operational steps, gen
22:31 < nmz787_i> significant cost savings.”
22:33 < nmz787_i> The renewable ionic liquid to which Simmons refers is one made from lignin and hemicellulose, two by-products of biofuel production from biorefineries. The discovery of the unique properties of this “bionic” liquid was also led by Singh and Simmons.“Using bionic liquids in our new one-pot high-gravity process we were able to increase biomass digestibility and obtain ethanol titer yields of 41.1 grams/liter, which exceeds the production
22:33 < nmz787_i> distillation required for industrial ethanol production,”
22:43 < lkjhfr> have you seen this though: http://www.electrofuels.org/ ?
22:45 < nmz787_i> not that particularly, will check it out
22:45 < nmz787_i> i did an internship at JBEI though, so I know a bit about the subject overall
22:45 < nmz787_i> haven't kept up with latest news too much in the past few years though
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22:47 < Houshalter> maaku, don't get the wrong impression of FAI. it doesn't mean it will take control away from humans. it could, but it doens't have to mean that if we don't want that. an FAI could use it's powers any number of ways to help humans, including helping us increase our intelligence - if that is what we want. or even letting us take our own path and work it out for ourselves, just guiding us a bit and removing really bad things
22:47 < Houshalter> like death and extreme suffering
22:49 < lkjhfr> has anyone clicked on this link i gave?
22:51 < maaku> Houshalter: FAI is so under specified that neither you nor anyone else has any idea what it would do
22:51 < Houshalter> lkjhfr, that's super cool
22:52 < lkjhfr> i am wondering how hard could i be to engineer these nanowires into plants to separate spatially energy collection from carbon fixation
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22:52 < Houshalter> lkjhfr, isn't it a bit inefficient to convert solar to electricity, then feed it to bacteria. why not use photosynthesizing organisms directly?
22:52 < lkjhfr> to make not only combines, but also solar cells, unnecessary
22:52 < maaku> Right now it is a magical box that does everything you think is good and doesn't do anything you think is bad.
22:53 < lkjhfr> because after you harvest, there is no plant to collect the incident energy
22:54 < lkjhfr> it's a higher efficiency per area of land
22:54 < Houshalter> maaku, yes. it would have to have our values exactly, and maybe even limitations on top. we don't know what those are
22:54 < maaku> The problems with that are twofold: 1. Over constrained to the point of being impossible. 2. What I value as good/bad is not the same as you
22:54 < Houshalter> lkjhfr, what about cyano bacteria though
22:55 < maaku> Houshalter from this conversation alone I'm pretty sure we don't match values. From a cursory look at history I know this to not be the case in general.
22:55 < Houshalter> i don't know what you mean with 1. 2 is unavoidable. peoples values are different
22:55 < maaku> So your FAI is a threat to me and vice versa
22:57 < Houshalter> lkjhfr, the only issue i see with microorganism farming, is that they can evolve faster than we can apply selection. The ones that reproduce the fastest get selected, not the ones that produce what you want them too. Or easily get contaminated with foreign bacteria that outcompete them, by not producing the product at all. you would have to have a really efficient mechanism for sterilizing sections of the farm and replaing
22:57 < Houshalter>  it with better stock periodically
22:58 < Houshalter> maaku, possibly. i don't know how much humans actually have different fundamental values, and even if we do the universe is still pretty big to let them go their seperate ways
22:59 < Houshalter> anyway it's inevitable unless you can stop superintelligences, the first superintelligence is going to vastly over power everything else and enforce it's values
22:59 < lkjhfr> i just love the idea how the carbon fixation can be separated using this
23:00 < Houshalter> lkjhfr, yeah if they could get this to work, it might be super cheap too. you could cheaply produce vast amounts of protien, sugar, etc, driving down food prices
23:01 < lkjhfr> that's what came to my mind at the first point when i saw this research
23:01 < Houshalter> i wonder if the government would pay to cover large areas with it to sequester carbon. i wonder how much area you would need to cover. probably a lot
23:01 < maaku> Houshalter you are making assumptions about the structure of an AGI that aren't generally true
23:01 < maaku> What you would call oracle ai doesn't act that way
23:02 < lkjhfr> but if plants could be engineered to produce electricity instead of fixing carbon, this would offer a complete, awesome, solution
23:02 < maaku> And furthermore the same argument could be applied with humans as the self improving intelligence...
23:03 < Houshalter> maaku, oracle AIs have no values to enforce. but any agent using one could use it to do the same thing though
23:04 < Houshalter> lkjhfr, it might be possible, but it wouldnt' be very efficient compared to solar panels. solar panels are already more efficient than land plants
23:05 < lkjhfr> than what exactly about land plants?
23:05 < lkjhfr> because from what google told be, it seems that carbon fixation is the main bottleneck
23:06 < Houshalter> lkjhfr, energy collection i mean, not carbon fixation.
23:08 < lkjhfr> but... it would be... like pandora... from avatar... *.*
23:10 < lkjhfr> without the need for a factory
23:19 < lkjhfr> https://www.geobacter.org/ is the main page of the group doing this research
23:20 < lkjhfr> the first thing to do would be to grow these nanowires as long as possible and check their characteristics
23:31 < lkjhfr> those people were funded by DOE, it isn't likely that they will try making food with that
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23:57 < Diablo-D3> .title http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-35323237
23:57 < yoleaux> Japan: 'Water bear' reproduces after 30 years on ice - BBC News
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--- Log closed Sat Jan 16 00:00:06 2016