--- Log opened Tue Feb 02 00:00:21 2016
00:07 < gnusha_> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/laser_etcher/commit/?id=e77d847e Nathan McCorkle: Added pinout image, added settings, added link to how to possibly use ISP for whole operation >> http://diyhpl.us/laser_etcher/NEJE_Laser_Etcher/atmega_pinout.png
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06:32 <@kanzure> beep boop
06:33 <@kanzure> nsh: in my sleep last night i was recruited into an organization called "the universal bottleneck reduction agency" but i don't know how to get in contact with them
06:34 <@kanzure> would you happen to know how to get in touch?
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07:01 < cpopell6> Anyone have a word on Magic Leap?
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07:39 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [-o kanzure] by kanzure
07:39 < kanzure> helo CoolerVoid
07:41 < CoolerVoid> Hello sir
07:42 < kanzure> what brings you here
07:42 < CoolerVoid> SOmeone like anti-aging recipes ? https://github.com/CoolerVoid/anti-aging_studies
07:42 < kanzure> hmm i think you should spend more time reading http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/ http://fightaging.org/
07:43 < kanzure> also, do you know about return-oriented gadget stuff?
07:44 < CoolerVoid> kansure humn nice stuff
07:45 < CoolerVoid> I don't know... but i guess this interesting, i write some codes to AVR and ARM... but i dont work with this...
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08:21 < kanzure> http://www.iarpa.gov/index.php/working-with-iarpa/requests-for-information/data-ingress-and-egress-for-cryogenic-systems
08:31 < kanzure> ArvinJA: welcome.
08:32 < ArvinJA> kanzure: Thank you! :)
08:33 < ArvinJA> So do you guys have a plan or are you also stuck at "Where do I start? I should be studying!"
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08:35 < kanzure> ArvinJA: we have a lot of the pieces figured out
08:35 < kanzure> ArvinJA: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/hplusroadmap
08:36 < kanzure> we have some plans for cryonics/immortality/better-than-traditional nootropics, but lately i have been wondering whether to skip cryonics for brain scanning (except the scanning part isn't the difficulty.....)
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08:37 < ArvinJA> kanzure: But you can already freeze people though, I'd want to be frozen so you could scan me later, if I were to get hit by a bus tomorrow
08:38 < kanzure> we freeze people but we don't do it well; i'm talking about a process that has a confirmed thawing procedure that works.
08:41 < kanzure> high-resolution brain scanning and plastination is going to be coming online soon
08:41 < ArvinJA> Has anyone thought of automating brain surgery?
08:41 < ArvinJA> You can do it remotely now right?
08:41 < kanzure> this will be capable of getting far more detail than is preserved in current cryonics vitrification procedures
08:42 < kanzure> most forms of surgery through a hole have been automated at this point
08:43 < ArvinJA> The more advanced forms of BCI's rely on actually having surgically place things in the brain right?
08:44 < ArvinJA> Rather than reading EEG
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08:45 < kanzure> yes there are physical brain-computer interfaces
08:45 < kanzure> ArvinJA: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Soft%20materials%20in%20neuroengineering%20for%20hard%20problems%20in%20neuroscience%20-%202015.pdf
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08:45 < kanzure> ArvinJA: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Neural%20dust:%20an%20ultrasonic,%20low%20power%20solution%20for%20chronic%20brain-machine%20interfaces.pdf
08:45 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Model%20validation%20of%20untethered,%20ultrasonic%20neural%20dust%20motes%20for%20cortical%20recording%20-%202015.pdf
08:46 < ArvinJA> Cool, so DIY brain augmentation might not be so sci-fi
08:46 < kanzure> trepanation has been performed for thousands of years
08:47 < ArvinJA> kanzure: Yeah sure, but I mean, actually being able to control certain receptors and so on through electrical impulses
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08:47 < kanzure> nah they use light for that not electricity
08:48 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Millisecond-timescale,%20genetically%20targeted%20optical%20control%20of%20neural%20activity%20-%20Boyden.pdf
08:48 < ArvinJA> Ah
08:48 < kanzure> read this one, http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Designing%20scalable%20biological%20interfaces%20-%20Marblestone.pdf
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11:01 < nsh> the universal bottleneck reduction agency is ironically best contactable by creating a large bottleneck and being in a position to reduce it
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11:02 < nsh> some speculate that the inherent tensegrity of this dialectic is the driving force behind the elaboration of all complexity within the great bottle
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11:06 < kanzure> context:
11:06 < kanzure> 08:14 <+ArvinJA> Uh, guys, I've been wanting to Immanentize the Eschaton for quite some time now, but I don't know where to start. Help?
11:06 < kanzure> 08:14 <+xentrac_> heh
11:06 < kanzure> 08:14 <+xentrac_> in ##hplusroadmap, ArvinJA
11:06 < kanzure> 08:15 <+dpk> immanentizing in Swhack of eschatons is forbidden by long-standing order
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11:20 < FourFire> cpopell6, ArvinJA have you tried > Gettingoutofthecar!
11:21 < superkuh> I get that reference.
11:22 < FourFire> No response from Bioviva, I presume they just ignore randoms who email them.
11:23 < ArvinJA> FourFire: I still don't know how to get out of the car, sadly :(
11:23 < FourFire> Now to email SENS, and ask what systems they make use of to design novel biological mechanisms...
11:24 < ArvinJA> Did you guys see Aubrey's comments?
11:24 < ArvinJA> he made a video response
11:24 < ArvinJA> since he's cited as an advisor to BioViva
11:25 < ArvinJA> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1zr6JsS5t8
11:26 < FourFire> ArvinJA, no I've been a fan of Aubrey since before I knew Bioviva existed
11:26 < ArvinJA> yeah foc
11:27 < ArvinJA> just interesting to see his assessments on current attempts at life extension, as they pop up
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11:58 < cpopell6> >reading E_D
11:58 < cpopell6> >end up on discussion of Wiki folks
11:59 < cpopell6> >mindspillage 'I recognize that name!' -- Married to gmaxwell 'I also recognize that name!'
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12:58 < FourFire> sent SENS an email
12:58 < FourFire> rooted my new smartphone
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13:04 < kanzure> "reaction mechanism generator" http://rmg.mit.edu/
13:04 < kanzure> https://github.com/ReactionMechanismGenerator/RMG-Py
13:05 < kanzure> https://github.com/ReactionMechanismGenerator/RMG-Py/blob/master/examples/generateReactions/input.py
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13:06 < kanzure> http://rmg.mit.edu/database/export_tar.gz
13:07 < delinquentme> OK so the chat on the mechanoligation pointed out something significant
13:07 < delinquentme> it IS plausible
13:07 < delinquentme> but the complexity of the structures are *quite* different
13:07 < delinquentme> all of the mechanical bond forming has been done on planar surfaces
13:07 < kanzure> hmm i think they don't have many reaction mechanisms http://rmg.mit.edu/database/kinetics/libraries/combustion_core/version5/
13:08 < delinquentme> so one of my questions is: Are there ways of simplifying the constraining of the DNA
13:08 < delinquentme> is there some fixture which can be applied to the DNA facilitating this
13:12 < kanzure> nanopores can constrain dna
13:12 < kanzure> halcyon molecular developed a water miniscuses method of isolating and stretching dna
13:12 < kanzure> https://groups.google.com/group/enzymaticsynthesis
13:15 < delinquentme> yeap nanopores was one of the thoughts
13:37 < chris_99> delinquentme, you mentioned you had STMs the other day, did you build them out of interest?
13:39 < delinquentme> chris_99: partially
13:39 < delinquentme> and partially for mechanoligation
13:41 < chris_99> cool, is there any particular 'guide' you followed out of curiosity - i'm really impressed by the images on this guys site http://dberard.com/home-built-stm/
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13:44 < delinquentme> chris_99: thats basically our STM
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13:44 < delinquentme> we had a few small modifications to it but were using all of his electronics
13:44 < chris_99> aha cool :)
13:45 < delinquentme> yeah its a solid instrument
13:45 < delinquentme> im waiting on a few pieces to be finished maching so I can scan HOPG
13:45 < delinquentme> but we've got beautiful scans of 1um 400nm and 100nm gold surfaces
13:46 < chris_99> cool :) did you acid etch the tips?
13:46 < delinquentme> nope!
13:46 < delinquentme> Purely mechanical shear forces
13:46 < delinquentme> 80/20 Platinum/iridium
13:46 < delinquentme> beauitful material to work with
13:46 < delinquentme> takes incredibly well to really fine manipulation and is SUPER ductile
13:47 < chris_99> interesting, but how do you create the point on it?
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13:48 < delinquentme> http://www.nanophys.kth.se/nanophys/facilities/nfl/afm/icon/bruker-help/Content/Resources/Graphics/Probe%20and%20Sample%20Guide/Making_wire_STMprobes.jpg
13:48 < delinquentme> its literally that easy
13:49 < delinquentme> no etching
13:49 < chris_99> haha, crazy
13:49 < delinquentme> simply positioning the cutting instrument at a sufficient angle and exploiting the ductility of the material
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13:50 < delinquentme> sometimes nature gives us really elegant hacks :P
13:50 < chris_99> that's very cool
13:51 < chris_99> how much did all the electronics / hardware cost out of interest, if you don't mind me asking
13:52 < delinquentme> ummm
13:52 < delinquentme> it was really fucking cheap im wanting to say we make the first for under $1k
13:52 < chris_99> wow!
13:52 < chris_99> that's impressive
13:52 < delinquentme> and thats buying tools , multimeteres .. essentially all the equipment that we didnt have
13:52 < delinquentme> i'd say iterations would be about $350 ?
13:53 < delinquentme> ehh no maybe 500
13:53 < chris_99> that's amazing
13:53 < delinquentme> but yeah
13:54 < chris_99> ah, are you using a nano-ammeter or something fancy?
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14:19 < delinquentme> current is heald constant by a few cheap opamps
14:21 < chris_99> sorry, i meant to measure the current from the tip for imaging
14:23 < kanzure> original tor paper cites wei dai's earlier pipenet stuff. he sure does get around. (although this is not particularly surprising considering his early involvement in tor....)
14:24 < delinquentme> so the tunneling current is maintained and as the tip rasterizes across the surface we're measuring the voltages input into the piezo as the imaging source
14:24 < delinquentme> voltages are set to maintain specfic tunneling current
14:24 < chris_99> oh i assumed the current changed
14:25 < delinquentme> then recorded in a ADC and thats where we get our z-values from :D
14:25 < delinquentme> brb stuffing greasy fodd into face
14:25 < chris_99> heh, bon appetit
14:28 < nmz787_i> huh, well that's an interesting way to control and image... as well as ensure the tip doesn't crash
14:28 < nmz787_i> and you keep all the feedback pretty close in the opamp package
14:29 < chris_99> am i reading wiki wrongly "If the tip is moved across the sample in the x-y plane, the changes in surface height and density of states cause changes in current. These changes are mapped in images" isn't that saying the current flucuates which is what you measure
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14:35 < nmz787_i> chris_99: if you keep Z constant
14:35 < nmz787_i> chris_99: what happens if your tip hits a mountain though, at constant tip-Z
14:35 < nmz787_i> CRASH
14:35 < chris_99> heh good point
14:35 < nmz787_i> alternatively, let the opamp keep constant distance, and measure the (relatively larger) voltage on the piezo
14:36 < nmz787_i> (i'm guessing it is relatively larger)
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14:37 < nmz787_i> (and the opamp will be doing the feedback on the piezos, so you can sit back and control the XY withouth thinking more about the tip itself)
14:37 < nmz787_i> (i'm guessing)
14:38 < chris_99> would i be right in thinking you could use the same x,y system as used by STM for AFM, and just use a cantilever + laser instead of the STM tip
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15:03 < delinquentme> chris_99: nmz787 this is an interesting bit though.  The whole control system for the movement isn't analog
15:04 < delinquentme> theres a digital portion where the height is determined based off the + / - of the current feeback loop
15:04 < delinquentme> one of the questions we were asking is if its run as constant current and all of the positioning circuitry is analog
15:05 < delinquentme> could one do away with the large mechanical portions of the dampening system ?
15:05 < delinquentme> the mechanical dampening is like 60% of the instruments envelope
15:07 < chris_99> interesting, i didn't look too much how the Z axis worked actually, i noticed there seems to be a piezo cut into quadrants for the x,y iirc
15:08 < chris_99> wait does the piezo also control the Z?
15:09 < delinquentme> yeap
15:10 < delinquentme> by simply applying a voltage to all quadrants
15:10 < chris_99> ahh
15:11 < chris_99> would i be right in thinking that the higher the voltage you apply, the closer the head moves to the sample
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15:16 < delinquentme> chris_99: depends on how the piezo is mounted but in the standard arrangement higher voltage causes the piezo to "swell" and push the needle towards teh sample
15:16 < delinquentme> TOWARDS TEH SAMPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!
15:16 < delinquentme> CHARGE
15:16 < chris_99> heh
15:16 < delinquentme> ^ the electrons
15:17 < chris_99> that makes sense, but how does the X,Y work, how does the metal platform actually move due to the piezos
15:17 < delinquentme> nope the metal is strictly for macro approach
15:18 < delinquentme> ideally you get a light source positioned perfectly on the surface of the sample, so that you can see the reflection of the tip
15:18 < delinquentme> and use that to get it into close-ish proximity
15:18 < delinquentme> then we've got a lil shit-cheap stepper which increments the rear screw bit by bit until tunneling happens
15:19 < delinquentme> then anything related to surface scanning is handled at the piezo
15:19 < delinquentme> and the ADC / DAC feedback loop
15:20 < chris_99> yeah i'm confused how the piezo actually performs x,y motion, is it just 'tilting' the tip, by differing ammounts
15:20 < chris_99> because you have quadrants
15:21 < delinquentme> but like nmz787 sed ... theres still possibility to slam into high peaks
15:21 < delinquentme> yeah the total tip movement envelope is definitely spherical / ellipsoidal
15:22 < delinquentme> as it its most certainly pivoting around a central axis
15:22 < chris_99> ahh
15:22 < delinquentme> but that central axis has some linear thrust-type actuation per the piezo expansion
15:22 < chris_99> do you know how much travel you get in each axis?
15:23 < delinquentme> depends on the piezo size
15:23 < delinquentme> current working proto  have a 12mm diameter piezo
15:23 < delinquentme> and we've got 20mm
15:23 < delinquentme> and since we're working with materials here the resolution of that is really only limited by the DAC / ADCs
15:24 < chris_99> you mean the tip can move 20mm in x,y,z?
15:24 < delinquentme> nah the diameter of the piezo
15:24 < chris_99> oh i thought it was high heh
15:24 < chris_99> could it be <1mm movement in each axis
15:24 < delinquentme> the travel is ~1um cubed
15:25 < chris_99> aha
15:25 < delinquentme> the z-axis has the most travel for obvious reasons of the X/Y movements are distorting antagonistically
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15:26 < chris_99> gotcha
15:27 < chris_99> after you've explained it, the actual principle of the movement seems fairly simple, it's amazing the piezo gives such high resolution
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15:42 < delinquentme> chris_99: just like I said w the platinum iridium
15:42 < delinquentme> its the properties of the material which allow this :D
15:42 < chris_99> mmm :)
15:45 < chris_99> have you looked into AFM at all? i'm assuming you can't easily DIY a probe for that
15:48 < delinquentme> nope ... i mean i understand the operating principle
15:48 < delinquentme> but thats also not running atmospheric temp / pressure
15:48 < delinquentme> the STM is like ... sitting on my desk surrounded by a coffee can lol
15:49 < chris_99> oh, i thought you could run an AFM under normal pressure, is that not the case
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16:08 < chris_99> http://www.budgetsensors.com/index.html seem like they're reasonably cheap, assuming they're ok
16:14 < fenn> .wik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Ara
16:14 < yoleaux> "Project Ara is the codename for an initiative that aims to develop an open hardware platform for creating highly modular smartphones. The platform will include a structural frame or endoskeleton that holds smartphone modules of the owner's choice, such as a display, camera or an extra battery." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Ara
16:14 < fenn> some familiar names here, paul eremenko, ara knaian
16:14 < fenn> electropermanent magnets are such an amazingly simple idea that one wonders why it's "new"
16:15 < fenn> .wik electropermanent magnet
16:15 < yoleaux> "An electropermanent magnet is a type of magnet which consists of both an electromagnet and a dual material permanent magnet, in which the magnetic field produced by the electromagnet is used to change the magnetization of the permanent magnet." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electropermanent_magnet
16:15 < fenn> "The permanent magnet consists of magnetically hard and soft materials, of which only the soft material (low coercivity) can have its magnetization changed. When the magnetically soft and hard materials have opposite magnetizations the magnet has no net field, and when they are aligned the magnet displays magnetic behavior."
16:17 < fenn> they used this concept to make a small and simple gearless high-torque low-power electric motor, for making reconfigurable modular robots
16:17 < delinquentme> chris_99: i would expect that molecules of air which are flying around would be pretty interacting with the probe tip
16:17 < fenn> .title youtu.be/EN_KkGdxqog
16:17 < yoleaux> MIT News at Noon with Neil Gershenfeld and Ara Knaian - YouTube
16:17 < kanzure> how high is high torque?
16:17 < fenn> enough to lift another motor of the same type
16:17 < fenn> with a lever arm of about 2x the diameter of the motor
16:18 < chris_99> delinquentme, the principle is similar to an STM though isn't it, are you saying your STM is in a vacuum?
16:18 < delinquentme> chris_99: nope
16:19 < delinquentme> they're 2 different operating principles ... though both fall within " probe microscopy "
16:19 < delinquentme> STMs can be in vacuum ... but not required... where im pretty sure AFM is strictly in vacuos
16:19 < chris_99> yeah, but the main difference is it uses a laser to 'read' the probe 'height', why should it need to be in a vacuum
16:20 < delinquentme> because the probe height is determined by the particle interactions
16:20 < delinquentme> if you're running it through air , air has lots of moving particles
16:20 < delinquentme> the "signal" ie the surface
16:21 < chris_99> "most AFM modes can work perfectly well in ambient air or even a liquid environment. This makes it possible to study biological macromolecules and even living organisms"
16:21 < delinquentme> Whaaaaaaa?
16:21 < delinquentme> HMMM
16:21 < chris_99> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic-force_microscopy assuming that's to believed ;)
16:21 < delinquentme> i wonder if the deflection / force applied is tuned to match the van der waals
16:21 < delinquentme> its possible
16:21 < delinquentme> i mean ... id trust that t
16:21 < delinquentme> hmmm
16:26 < kanzure> don't need a vacuum
16:26 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/AFM/
16:28 < fenn> http://www.modularphonesforum.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/project_ara_phone_medium.jpg  image of actual hardware "spiral 1 prototype"
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16:39 < delinquentme> kanzure: I suppose the latent air molecules arent viscious enough to interact substantially w the tip ?
16:40 < delinquentme> so then ywah its purely vanderwaals off of the solid being scanned
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18:52 < gustavorobertux> CoolerVoid, o/
18:52 < CoolerVoid> master hello
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