--- Log opened Wed Mar 09 00:00:55 2016
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07:41 < kanzure> http://thebaffler.com/salvos/everybody-freeze-pein
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08:01 < eudoxia> >In Alcor’s account, “the actual success of perfusion in this case appears negligible.” (Perfusion is the term for pumping fluids through blood vessels.) A CT scan later confirmed that “cryoprotective perfusion was not generally successful”—meaning that Suozzi’s brain would not be well preserved.
08:01 < eudoxia> damn
08:01 < eudoxia> she was in a hospice in Scotsdale and everything and they *still* fucked up the perfusion?
08:01 < eudoxia> it's  not like she died of an aneurysm
08:10 < eudoxia> >Credit goes to University of California–Berkeley lecturer in rhetoric Dale Carrico for this coinage.
08:10 < eudoxia> aaaaaaaaaa
08:12 < JayDugger> Yeah, citing Dale Carrico?
08:12 < fenn> in suozzi's case, she was kicked out of the hospice for not dying fast enough, and then at the new place the night nurse shift changed right when she did die, so the alcor team wasn't able to enter until several hours later
08:13 < eudoxia> :(
08:13 < fenn> the second nurse got lost or something on the way to the hotel, and alcor needs a pronouncement of death before they can do anything
08:14 < eudoxia> what a bunch of overpaid hacks
08:16 < JayDugger> Kind of spoiled for choice of referents with your "bunch of overpaid hacks," eudoxia.
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08:16 < eudoxia> the hospice nurses
08:17 < eudoxia> alcor should run an ez die hospice as a side business
08:17 < eudoxia> just pay someone to sit by the patient until they stop breathing, how hard is that
08:18 < JayDugger> That part, not very. Legal compliance? I doubt there's an upper limit for that part's difficulty.
08:18 < eudoxia> hmm
08:18 < JayDugger> I am so glad I had the cryonics talk with my wife before proposing.
08:20 < JayDugger> Now, if I could just get her to entertain the idea of someday emigrating to Mars…
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08:24 < Aurelius_Work2> JayDugger : my gf is down with all that shit.
08:24 < Aurelius_Work2> JayDugger : though the 'going to space' part itself might terrify her
08:26 < JayDugger> Such are hard to find. Consider marriage.
08:27 < kanzure> what? dn't give bad advice come on...
08:28 < JayDugger> "Consider," not "do it now, where are my grandchildren, I can still disinherit you, etc."
08:28 < Aurelius_Work2> JayDugger : it's on the list
08:28 < Aurelius_Work2> we'll also be renegotiating a prenup yearly
08:29 < JayDugger> Though yeah, if it doesn't work out, well, you were warned. :)
08:29 < Aurelius_Work2> vov
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08:49 < fenn> mcelrath.. didn't he write about the bitcoin braid idea?
08:51 < fenn> i guess it shouldn't be surprising
08:56 < kanzure> he used to be extropian or something
08:56 < kanzure> turns out all the bitcoiners are transhumanist, *shrug*
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10:03 < kanzure> http://www.nature.com/news/open-hardware-pioneers-push-for-low-cost-lab-kit-1.19518
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11:18 < nmz787_i> zopr
11:18 < nmz787_i> zorp
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12:13 < nmz787_i> bing bong
12:15 < c0rw1n> bong bing
12:20 < nmz787_i> microsoft bing
12:20 < nmz787_i> /me I've been tricked!
12:23  * harold hugs nmz787_i 
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15:45 < maaku> I am taking much schadenfreude in how lesswrong reacts to AlphaGo defeating Lee Sedol
15:46 < kanzure> links?
15:46 < kanzure> or do you mean on irc
15:47 < kanzure> http://people.idsia.ch/~juergen/
15:47 < maaku> re: the match https://gogameguru.com/alphago-defeats-lee-sedol-game-1/ , lw: http://lesswrong.com/r/discussion/lw/ne1/alphago_versus_lee_sedol/
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15:55 < maaku> but I suspect the wise stewards at MIRI will find some way to reason themselves into believing that defeating humans at Go says nothing about the advancement of AGI
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16:11 < Houshalter> maaku, um what? Yudkowsky was saying a month ago that beating go was a significant advancement towards AGI. That alphago was a sign that AGI might be close
16:12 < Houshalter> EY left comments on the HN discussion about it. and the #lesswrong IRC seems to be really excited about the alphago victory
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18:10 < Taek> I still don't see how this moves us towards general intelligence. Is the computer capable of performing an original thought without brute-force? Or is it the case that the human brain does some variation of brute force?
18:10 < Taek> hmm. I prefer to convince myself that it's still a dumb machine in the same way a chess engine is dumb than have to face the idea that there's a greater intelligence out there
18:11 < Taek> I don't think we're ready to handle the changes it would herald
18:19 < Houshalter> Taek, the thing is it's not a brute force game playing engine. The search space of Go is far too large to use those techniques. It uses neural networks, which learn to recognize patterns and learn strategies. The same way humans play. And it's a very general algorithm, that can be applied to many domains and games
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18:20 < Taek> Houshalter: it had to play itself billions of times. The pattern matching arose from trying things many times and determining which ones were successful. I certainly didn't learn chess by playing billions of imaginary games. (I don't play go)
18:20 < Taek> I do acknowledge that it's a huge improvement over chess
18:21 < Taek> As long as it's not demonstrating sentience, I'm not really worried
18:21 < Taek> then it's just a tool to find better drugs, etc.
18:21 < Taek> though, if Google is the only one with that tech, they become utterly dominant
18:21 < kanzure> Taek: part of the problem is that thinking is underspecified
18:22 < kanzure> and sentience is also underspecified
18:22 < Taek> kanzure: fully acknowledged. I'm not sure I would be able to tell an AGI even if it had an unbounded conversation with me
18:22 < kanzure> in fact i'm not really sure if the human brain is "thinking"- if "thinking" is underspecified then how would i ever be capable of being sure that the human brain does it?
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18:22 < kanzure> i agree that human brains seem to have some sort of cognitive ability information processing stuffs that computers do not seem to be doing yet
18:28 < maaku> Task except that is how you play chess isn't it? You go through simulations in your head when you think out your next move.
18:29 < maaku> I think AlphaGo is very close to how humans process and learn strategic games (based on self reports, not empirical neurobiology)
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18:32 < kanzure> i usually play games by doing internal simulation of moves
18:32 < maaku> That's certainly how I play chess
18:33 < kanzure> you don't do random moves?? bah
18:33 < kanzure> you have to introduce entropy, that's how you throw the ai off
18:33 < kanzure> :P
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18:36 < kanzure> the problem with self-reports is that i'm never quite sure if they map back to reality
18:36 < maaku> What AlphaGo does that is both revolutionary and at the same time blindingly obvious in retrospect is self-modify using reinforcement learning over the output of those throwaway next move simulations
18:37 < kanzure> yes, "have layers send feedback to other layers" and such
18:40 < pasky> Taek: not billions, millions
18:41 < kanzure> Taek: i think you would be able to detect an AGI by talking with it and then reasonably checking its claims, like if it's an author then where are all the things it has authored? where are the blog posts? etc.
18:42 < maaku> Turing test?
18:44 < kanzure> i think the traditional assumption about "turing test" is that you don't have an internet connection, or something
18:44 < Houshalter> Taek, eh, not entirely true. We don't know how many times it played against itself, but in the match it took 2 minutes to make a move. And it only had 5 months or so to train. That would be thousands of times, which is about as many games as a human professional has played in their lifetime
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18:45 < Houshalter> however the ability of computers to learn things much more rapidly than humans is a huge advantage in itself
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18:47 < Taek> maaku: when I play chess I look for specific patterns. Is my queen and bishop lined up? Is the queen in front? Are my pawns stacked like X or Y. I'm only a 1400 player or so, but I find that I play better when I focus on keeping my side of the board 'clean', which is definitely a layer beyond brute-force or pure tactics.
18:48 < Taek> I brute force on top of that, but I have heavy heruistics to evaluate the strength of a given position, chess enginges typically make those evaluations by brute-forcing really deep, and not using too many heuristics
18:48 < Taek> deep mind is of course a different beast
18:50 < Houshalter> Taek, NNs are not AGI, but they are step towards AGI. They can learn very similar to the way animal brains learn. There will be have to be many more insights and developments before they get to human level, but I believe that will happen. In the meantime they can still replace like 90% of human's jobs
18:51 < Houshalter> maaku, you missed my reply earlier. MIRI is not dismissing alphago. in fact Yudkowsky has been saying for the last month that it represents significant progress in AI.
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20:01 < kanzure> http://www.nature.com/news/governance-learn-from-diy-biologists-1.19507
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20:14 < maaku> Houshalter I have no idea what EY has written post LW other than HPMoR because he moved to the closed medium of Facebook.
20:16 < maaku> I know that a big portion of the sequences was spent rejecting NN as a messy study of emergent behavior and therefore trivially wrong
20:16 < maaku> If he has moved beyond that, of is good.
20:17 < kanzure> i suppose "NNs are not sufficiently studied" is a good criticism
20:17 < Houshalter> maaku, he wrote on facebook, and he's been making comments on HN about it recently
20:17 < maaku> However my snarky vindicative pleasure is from AGI being around the corner rather than the party line of 50+ years out
20:18 < maaku> kanzure I believe the true rejection was that successful NN have been "not Bayesian" whatever that means
20:19 < kanzure> oh that's just cfar "church of bayes" cult stuff
20:21 < maaku> Task -- AlphaGo is using the same type of strategies
20:21 < maaku> Taek
20:22 < maaku> It is training neural networks to recognize such patterns and appropriate responses.
20:23 < Houshalter> the thing is game playing doesn't require bayes at all. Bayes is great about protecting about overfitting. But alphago can self play, or look at millions of games by humans. It doesn't need to worry about overfitting too much
20:23 < Houshalter> bayes is great, but not magic AI sauce
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21:07 < fenn> maaku the AI worriers i know were significantly more worried after hearing about alphago
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22:24 < kanzure> he would know, fenn lives at "ai worry" hq
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22:36 < maaku> fenn - if it prods them to work in a practical and useful direction, I'd be very happy
22:40 < maaku> Houshalter what I don't understand is how "Bayesian reasoning" is any different than regular old probability theory that underlies 98% of the AI work out there, NARS being the (only?) exception
22:43 < maaku> Probability is probability, regardless of whether you describe things as priors and posteriors or some other formulation
22:43 < maaku> And yeah, not magic AI sauce indeed
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--- Log closed Thu Mar 10 00:00:55 2016