--- Log opened Thu Mar 10 00:00:55 2016
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05:28 < kanzure> vernor vinge talking about anarchism stuff https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzRuPGnJxCs&feature=youtu.be&t=52m25s
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05:35 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nbv9L-WIu0s
05:35 < yoleaux> Bloat: How and Why UNIX Grew Up (and Out) - Rusty Russell,Matt Evans - YouTube
05:38 < kanzure> received an email from lesnikof2010@gmail.com asking about the tdt oligonucleotide dna synthesis technique
05:38 < kanzure> i think they are referring to http://2014.igem.org/Team:Cooper_Union/TdT_project
05:44 < kanzure> oh good that tdt project was masterminded by oliver medvidik (genspace) so i'll just send the email to oliver instead
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05:47 < kanzure> " '"Zayner's campaign is worrisome because it does not seem to comply with the DIYbio.org code of conduct."' Really, is the ODIN now being portrait as a rogue DIYBio shop? To me his initiative embodies much more what DIYBio is about, than a code-of-conduct from 2011."
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05:52 < cluckj> kanzure, link?
05:52 < cluckj> cause I didn't realize the DIYbio code of conduct was binding
05:53 < cluckj> or inclusive of all "amateur" activities...
05:55 < kanzure> it's not binding, and many of us including me have yelled at them vigorously for even trying that bullshit
05:55 < kanzure> this is re: http://www.nature.com/news/governance-learn-from-diy-biologists-1.19507
05:55 < cluckj> oh todd's new article
05:57 < cluckj> yeah...
05:57 < kanzure> they always wanted diybio.org to be big brother or little sister, and i was always there to drop a smelly shit on them telling them they are fucking idiots
05:58 < kanzure> pieter boheemen asks ""establish appropriate norms for government funding and regulatory agencies, for people working both within and outside conventional research settings, for the directors of community labs and for the developers of crowdfunding platforms" is this a suggestion to try and control the funding of DIYBio activities and subject it to some kind regime?"
05:58 < cluckj> "Of course, community norms will have little effect on the behaviour of rogue individuals who are intent on causing mischief or harm." FTFY: "Of course, community norms will have little effect on the behaviour of individuals."
05:59 < kanzure> right... it's just completely nonsensical to have this organization focused on advocating for individualism, while trying to impose the will of a collective. they are worse than morons.
05:59 < cluckj> nah
06:00 < kanzure> not much of a rebuttal
06:01 < cluckj> I
06:01 < cluckj> I'm busy with the kid...
06:05 < cluckj> I mean...organizations will be organizing -- the folks who are invested in maintaining the organization are also invested in the code of conduct, in part because it provides a way to argue against direct oversight and regulation of individuals
06:06 < cluckj> so it's not exactly anti-individual for DIYbio to have a code of conduct?
06:06 < cluckj> folks like todd are arguing for something like "self-regulation" of DIYbio and pointing at this code
06:06 < cluckj> I do think it's kinda weaksauce to call out josiah's project as "troubling" because of some really really minor safety issue
06:07 < pompolic> i'm uninformed on this subject, but i have an observation: they are already branding people and organizations "rogue", who don't abide
06:07 < cluckj> yeah
06:07 < cluckj> who are the "they" though?
06:07 < kanzure> haha just found phreedom, he is in #nixos hanging out, haven't seen him since 2011 i thought he was dead
06:08 < pompolic> whoever is being quoted as such
06:08 < kanzure> pompolic: heh
06:08 < pompolic> sorry for the tautology. i meant to leave that undefined
06:11 < cluckj> ^
06:12 < cluckj> that's exactly why I'm asking that
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06:12 < cluckj> it matters a lot who is making those claims
06:13 < kanzure> diybio.org was started by mac cowell and jason bobe and they always had some sort of pro-governance perspective
06:13 < cluckj> todd is a researcher on diybio, and his project is about sort of about regulating it
06:13 < kanzure> if you have weak leaders, then you are already screwed
06:15 < cluckj> screwed for what?
06:16 < cluckj> I think that 'diybio' is a set of practices that are adjacent to traditional (institutionalized) scientific norms, not necessarily the organization itself
06:17 < Aurelius_Work> but the organization seems to be trying to conflate the practice and the organization
06:17 < cluckj> josiah could be questioning the sometimes-silly norm of "NO FOOD NEAR SCIENCE" by keeping those organisms next to his sandwiches?
06:17 < cluckj> lol
06:18 < cluckj> I really want to say there is no "organization"
06:19 < cluckj> there are organizations around "diybio," and diybio is organized
06:19 < kanzure> Aurelius_Work: right
06:19 < Aurelius_Work> there is an organization that called itself diybio.org
06:19 < Aurelius_Work> except they drop the .org part usually when discussing it
06:19 < kanzure> cluckj: specifically there are people going to regulators and saying "we represent diybio.org, we have a 501c3 and a code of conduct and we ostracize and govern people"
06:19 < kanzure> Aurelius_Work: precisely....
06:19 < cluckj> kanzure, whoooooo
06:20 < kanzure> cluckj: mac and jason etc etc
06:20 < Aurelius_Work> didn't they also spawn grindhouse?
06:20 < kanzure> no
06:20 < cluckj> kanzure, yeah
06:20 < kanzure> grindhouse is awful for totally unrelated awful reasons
06:21 < cluckj> I think they're doing that to keep regulators sated and off the backs of diybio practicioners, not for any "we are in charge of this thing" reasons
06:24 < cluckj> it's like h+ suggesting that they are the ones in charge of the concept of transhumanism?
06:27 < cluckj> if h+ were called "transhumanists" or something
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06:44 < kanzure> cluckj: inriguingly, there is a group of transhumanists claiming they are in fact in charge of transhumanism, i think his name is loremaster and he refuses to let others edit the transhumanism wikipedia article
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06:50 < T0BI> hi everyone
06:51 < kanzure> greetz
06:51 < T0BI> what are u talking about here guys?
06:59 < kanzure> the left twisting peptide arm of rna polymerase
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07:05 < cluckj> kanzure, lol
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07:39 < archels_> http://websdr.ewi.utwente.nl:8901/fullday/
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08:30 < JayDugger> Harrumph.
08:48 < maaku> http://www.infoq.com/articles/interview-schmidhuber-deep-learning
08:48 < maaku> .title
08:48 < yoleaux> Will AI Surpass Human Intelligence? Interview with Prof. Jürgen Schmidhuber on Deep Learning
08:49 < kanzure> hrm i am confused whether an internet connection is allowed during a "turing test"
08:51 < maaku> Internet did not exist when term was coined
08:53 < kanzure> yeah but... uh... seems like we should decide whether to allow internet connections?
08:53 < kanzure> also, his page on creativity is very wordy, like all his other pages- http://people.idsia.ch/~juergen/creativity.html
08:53 < kanzure> i think he should just say "entropy, yo" and "errors and failures causing novel combinations and arrangements" and be done with it
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08:55 < kanzure> hrm he at least seems to recognize the utility of self-regulation and feedback
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08:57 < maaku> Seems like we should denounce the Turing test as a horrendously bad idea
08:57 < maaku> It involves creations an AGI explicitly designed to deceive its creators. Even I take issue with that
08:58 < maaku> Turing lived in a naïve time where human thought was considered a ceiling
08:58 < kanzure> the inverse of the turing test is equally useless-- convince someone that the chatter is not human. how do that? a human can type almost anything. the test is stupid.
08:58 < kanzure> *how to do that?
08:59 < kanzure> .title http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fpsyg.2013.00313/abstract
08:59 < yoleaux> Frontiers | PowerPlay: Training an Increasingly General Problem Solver by Continually Searching for the Simplest Still Unsolvable Problem | Cognitive Science
08:59 < kanzure> or er hosted on arxiv http://arxiv.org/abs/1112.5309
09:00 < maaku> Convince someone the chatter is superhuman?
09:00 < kanzure> "Deep Learning in Neural Networks: An Overview. Neural Networks" http://people.idsia.ch/~juergen/DeepLearning8Oct2014.pdf (long review)
09:01 < maaku> That doesn't work because kanzure would be a false positive
09:01 < cluckj> nah
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09:10 < maaku> Eh. I question the utility of the test anyway. What do you learn by faking being a human being? Nothing. Measure functional metrics if you must measure anything.
09:11 < kanzure> there was a paper from a while back called "universal psychometric tests" which was trying to figure out a way to measure cognitive ability of programs of some length
09:12 < kanzure> unfortunately the question remains difficult and the answers nebulous or equally useless
09:12 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/ai/Measuring%20cognitive%20abilities%20of%20machines,%20humans%20and%20non-human%20animals%20in%20a%20unified%20way:%20towards%20universal%20psychometrics.pdf
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09:48 < maaku> If someone were interested in this I think tasks like learning the rules and optimal strategy for randomly generated games
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09:51 < maaku> Being AI though you can do things like repeat the same task from a clean slate memory
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10:11 < Taek> it may be that it's much more energy efficient to not switch to a clean slate. So much of biology is oriented around preserving energy.
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10:12 < kanzure> Taek: have you read this? http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/brain-emulation-roadmap-report.pdf
10:14 < Taek> I have not. Incidentally, it looks like I'll be on airplanes for about 80 hours over the next 6 weeks, so I can probably bang it out.
10:15 < kanzure> Taek: then i have some other recommendations as well,
10:15 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/ai/How%20hard%20is%20artificial%20intelligence%3f%20Evolutionary%20arguments%20and%20selection%20effects%20-%20Shulman%20-%20Bostrom.pdf
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10:16 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/physics/astrophysics/Starivore%20extraterrestrials%20-%20Interacting%20binary%20stars%20as%20macroscopic%20metabolic%20systems%20-%20Clement%20Vidal.pdf
10:16 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Designing%20scalable%20biological%20interfaces%20-%20Marblestone.pdf
10:16 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/DNA%20methylation%20in%20memory%20formation%20-%20emerging%20insights%20-%202015.pdf
10:16 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Millisecond-timescale,%20genetically%20targeted%20optical%20control%20of%20neural%20activity%20-%20Boyden.pdf
10:16 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Soft%20materials%20in%20neuroengineering%20for%20hard%20problems%20in%20neuroscience%20-%202015.pdf
10:16 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/space/Orbiting%20rainbows%20-%20optical%20manipulation%20of%20aerosols%20and%20the%20beginnings%20of%20future%20space%20construction%20-%20NASA.pdf
10:16 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/space/Image%20restoration%20from%20a%20sequence%20of%20random%20masks.pdf
10:17 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/physics/astrophysics/black-holes/Black%20holes:%20attractors%20for%20intelligence%3f.pdf
10:17 < kanzure> alright well that's enough for at least 1 of those hours.... not sure about the other 79.
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10:32 < maaku> lol
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10:35 < heath> http://www.nature.com/articles/srep20529 Novel Method for Neuronal Nanosurgical Connection
10:39 < kanzure> "We describe a novel laser application, utilizing femtosecond laser pulses, in order to connect neuronal axon to neuronal soma. We were able to maintain cellular viability, and demonstrate that this technique is universal as it is applicable to multiple cell types and media."
10:39 < heath> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tn5qgEqWgW8
10:39 < yoleaux> How does DNA fold? The loop extrusion model - YouTube
10:40 < heath> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dES-ozV65u4
10:40 < yoleaux> A 3D Map of the Human Genome - YouTube
10:43 < heath> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSGrRmJwp9Y
10:43 < yoleaux> A Custom Home for Stem Cells - YouTube
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10:44 < kanzure> "A theory of ambulance chasing" re: subatomic particle physics and recent baboonery http://arxiv.org/abs/1603.01204 re: http://www.nature.com/news/who-ordered-that-1.19514
10:54 < maaku> .title http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/ai-visionary-eliezer-yudkowsky-on-the-singularity-bayesian-brains-and-closet-goblins/
10:54 < yoleaux> AI Visionary Eliezer Yudkowsky on the Singularity, Bayesian Brains and Closet Goblins - Scientific American Blog Network
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11:00 < kanzure> "What, literal immortality?  Literal immortality seems hard.  Living significantly longer than a few trillion years requires us to be wrong about the expected fate of the expanding universe.  Living longer than, say, a googolplex years, requires us to be wrong about the basic character of physical law, not just the details. Even if some of the wilder speculations are true and it's possible for our universe to spawn baby universes, that ...
11:00 < kanzure> ... doesn't get us literal immortality.  To live significantly past a googolplex years without repeating yourself, you need computing structures containing more than a googol elements, and those won't fit inside a single Hubble volume. And a googolplex is hardly infinity.  To paraphrase Martin Gardner, Graham's Number is still relatively small because most finite numbers are very much larger.  Look up the fast-growing hierarchy if you ...
11:00 < kanzure> ... really want to have your mind blown, well, eternity is longer than that.  Only weird and frankly terrifying anthropic theories would let you live long enough to gaze, perhaps knowingly and perhaps not, upon the halting of the longest-running halting Turing machine with 100 states."
11:00 < kanzure> "But I'm not sure that living to look upon the 100th Busy Beaver Number feels to me like it matters very much on a deep emotional level.  I have some imaginative sympathy with myself a subjective century from now.  That me will be in a position to sympathize with their future self a subjective century later.  And maybe somewhere down the line is someone who faces the prospect of their future self not existing at all, and they might be ...
11:00 < kanzure> ... very sad about that; but I'm not sure I can imagine who that person will be.  "I want to live one more day.  Tomorrow I'll still want to live one more day.  Therefore I want to live forever, proof by induction on the positive integers."  Even my desire for merely physical-universe-containable longevity is an abstract want by induction; it's not that I can actually imagine myself a trillion years later."
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11:12 < archels_> .wik Hubble volume
11:12 < yoleaux> "In cosmology, a Hubble volume, or Hubble sphere, is a spherical region of the Universe surrounding an observer beyond which objects recede from that observer at a rate greater than the speed of light due to the expansion of the Universe. The Hubble volume is approximately 1031 cubic light years." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubble_volume
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11:31 < maaku> 1031 cubic light years? that's crazy small
11:31 < maaku> oh 10^31
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13:19 < Taek> if you invoke infinity it's pretty much guaranteed that you'll repeat states endlessly, unless you are growing in size. But even then, any sufficiently small subset of you will be identical to subsets of the past
13:20 < Taek> if consciousness is limited to what happens inside an object as small as the brain, you've only got so much you can possibly experience
13:20 < Taek> then you start repeating yourself
13:20 < kanzure> when eliezer is talking about infinity he is definitely not talking about things confined inside of human heads
13:21 < Taek> sure
13:21 < Taek> But I do wonder if there's some limit to how magnified a consciousness can become
13:21 < Taek> *assuming consciousness has a physical manifestation, etc.
13:21 < kanzure> would it surprise you to hear that i don't believe in consciousness?
13:21 < kanzure> i don't think it exists.
13:21 < Taek> maaku had warned me at some point
13:21 < kanzure> god damn it maaku :P
13:22 < Taek> Consciousness as I define it absolutely exists, I know because I think, and that thought which I can cling to fits my definition of consciousness
13:22 < Taek> as poor of a definition as that may be
13:22 < kanzure> wikipedia article on consciousness says that none of the definitions have been helpful
13:23 < kanzure> "Consciousness is a fascinating but elusive phenomenon: it is impossible to specify what it is, what it does, or why it has evolved. Nothing worth reading has been written on it.[21]"
13:23 < kanzure> seems like useless idea. your brain does information processing tasks, and it's probably not "because consciousness".
13:23 < Taek> well, I certainly don't see how an improved understanding of consciousness would help you with survival
13:23 < archels_> consciousness as a term has been subdivided and defined in various more precise ways
13:24 < kanzure> don't listen to archels he's a dualist sympathizer    :P
13:25 < archels_> how dare you
13:25 < archels_> the word mind doesn't even exist in my dictionary
13:27 < maaku> consciousness should be tabood from everyone's vocabulary
13:28 < kanzure> hooray
13:28 < archels_> don't mention the q-word
13:29 < maaku> oh god I hope we don't have any epiphenomenalists in here
13:30 < maaku> there are some useful concepts that people refer to as 'consciousness', and some truly stupid concepts too. we'd be better to not use the word and define what we mean
13:30 < kanzure> usually i would pipe up and say wakefulness right about now, but unfortunately i have found that i can type in my sleep
13:31 < maaku> yeah see right there? wakefulness is not what I mean when I refer to consciousness, nor Taek either I think
13:32 < kanzure> right right, i'm sure neither of you meant it, but i would say wakefulness can be easier to define sometimes unless you type in your sleep
13:32 < maaku> right
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13:40 < pasky> good! i also don't believe in consciousness; and for any particular concrete definition of consciousness i've seen, it's possible to implement a degenerate version of it as a simple program
13:40 < maaku> pasky: cognitive discord much?
13:41 < maaku> "i also don't believe in consciousness" ... "it's possible to implement a degenerate version of it as a simple program"
13:45 < kanzure> he means "for any particular definition i've seen"
13:45 < kanzure> as in, he has not seen a concrete definition where it's not the case
13:46 < pasky> i hoped i could have been brief; i don't believe in the abstract notion of consciousness as some secret sauce of "true intelligence" (...which we can then try to precisely define, but <the part after semicolon>)
13:46 < pasky> the concept just doesn't seem necessary
13:47 < maaku> good, neither do I!
13:48 < maaku> but the cogito ergo sum is still real
13:52 < maaku> kanzure: causailty is backwards. one has consciousness _because_ the brain does information processing tasks...
13:53 < maaku> and my definition is simple : "experiences shit that happens"
13:54 < kanzure> apparently most of the small dogs with tiny brains are pretty dumb but that's mostly because of poor breeding strategy
13:54 < kanzure> although i think they might still be more clever than cats, so it's probably okay to use them as a scanning target
13:56 < maaku> i wonder what the best scoring animal is on the metric of (smarts / age-of-reproductive-maturity)
13:56 < maaku> i think a mouse would still beat a dog at that
13:57 < kanzure> maybe some birds.
13:58 < maaku> i was assuming mammals for similarity of neural anatomy
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14:31 < kanzure> that's reasonable
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16:32 < heath> http://www.ellenmacarthurfoundation.org/circular-economy
16:32 < heath> "A circular economy is one that is restorative and regenerative by design, and which aims to keep products, components and materials at their highest utility and value at all times, distinguishing between technical and biological cycles."
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17:21 < maaku> http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/industrial-robots/sri-micro-robots-can-now-manufacture-their-own-tools
17:21 < maaku> .title
17:22 < yoleaux> SRI's Micro Robots Can Now Manufacture Their Own Tools - IEEE Spectrum
17:23 < maaku> more like simple actuators than "robot", but nevertheless cool
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17:35 < kanzure> i think heath knows someone at sri. maybe.
17:38 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11261419
17:38 < yoleaux> New Procedure Allows Kidney Transplants from Any Donor | Hacker News
17:38 < kanzure> "The procedure is called 'Desensitization' where they filter out the existing antibodies in the patient's blood, and then infused external antibodies for protection while the body regenerates new ones. Then the strange part is the new antibodies are less likely to attack the donated organs which results in more available donors for patients. The procedure is $30k, but in the long run is cheaper than $70k for dialysis every year. The life ...
17:38 < kanzure> ... expectancy appears to be longer than using cadaver organs."
17:39 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttMQECKQ3DQ
17:39 < yoleaux> The Right Match: A Short Documentary - YouTube
17:40 < kanzure> ".. researchers who connect the complexities of mathematics with the intricacies of organ transplantation"
17:40 < kanzure> "He also was involved in getting congressional approval for HIV+ -> HIV+ transplants (which were technically illegal till recently)."
17:41 < kanzure> half-matched bone marrow transplants http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/kimmel_cancer_center/centers/bone_marrow_transplant/haploidentical_transplantation.html
17:43 < kanzure> there is a 50 megawtt arcjet at "arnold engineering development center" like http://alfven.princeton.edu/papers/magnetarc.pdf (1967 description)
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17:46 < kanzure> https://groups.google.com/group/power-satellite-economics
17:47 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-Lrj35HcbQ
17:47 < yoleaux> Thermal Space Solar Power concept - YouTube
17:47 < kanzure> ("A concept for a thermal space solar power satellite by Keith Henson, Steve Nixon and Kris Holland; animated by Kris Holland/Mafic Studios and Anna Nesterova.")
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17:49 < kanzure> "Solving economics, energy, carbon and climate in a single project" http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/articleDetails.jsp?tp=&arnumber=7046244
17:49 < kanzure> "Thermal power satellite design and mass calculation" http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/articleDetails.jsp?tp=&arnumber=7314315
18:02 < justanotheruser> helloe
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18:08 < kanzure> justanotheruser: hi2u
18:09 < justanotheruser> whats new
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18:11 < kanzure> well, eliezer has been farting up the hubble volume again
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18:22 < kanzure> "People publishing PDFs sometimes use that non-standard behavior to display some graphics. This is especially true with many research papers that only render on Adobe Reader."
18:22 < kanzure> ( from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11262403 )
18:22 < kanzure> i guess we should start archiving versions of adobe reader so that in the future we can still read some of these stupid papers
18:23 < kanzure> i wonder what percent of scientific literature is tainted by this
18:23 < kanzure> if we end up with only digital copies then we're even more screwed
18:23 < kanzure> .. which we probably will, considering how painful it is to make complete archives of any other type.
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18:33 < sh> Archiving the binaries sounds like a plan. We can RE the behavior later.
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19:35 < maaku> File hippo
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20:14 < maaku> My usual AI IRC haunts are depressingly full of ignorant know it alls. Does anyone know a high SNR AI channel?
20:14 < kanzure> oh that's easy it's #lesswrong
20:14  * kanzure ducks
20:14 < maaku> Lol
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20:28 < Houshalter> maaku, on public IRC? I don't know. I have a private AGI slack group that is decent. also the lesswrong slack group #ai channel is ok
20:31 < maaku> Yeah looking for IRC. I get enough of slack at work.
20:33 < Houshalter> you can connect to slack via IRC. that's how I do it.
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23:05 < JayDugger> Good evening.
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--- Log closed Fri Mar 11 00:00:56 2016