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00:40 < nmz787_i> comma8: what do you think might be the problem with the soil? heavy metals or petroleum waste/
00:40 < nmz787_i> ?
00:40 < nmz787_i> Joshchamp: channel has been active for years as far as I know
00:41 < Joshchamp> ah maybe I'm thinking of something else
00:41 < nmz787_i> kanzure: jrayhawk has gnusha switched to GMT timestamps for (good) some reason?
00:41 < jrayhawk> that sounds odd
00:42 < nmz787_i> using a m3d printer now... seems decent so far (as in low hassles)... we'll see if this print turns out OK or not
00:42 < nmz787_i> jrayhawk: yes we have logs for tomorrow http://gnusha.org/logs/2016-05-26.log
00:43 < nmz787_i> it is 12:42 GMT now, so correllates
00:43 < nmz787_i> correlates*
00:47 < comma8> nmz787_i, mostly I would expect heavy metals; lead. But this land has been inhabited for a long time, so it could have anything in it.
00:49 < comma8> I know there is radon here, but I don't think that can affect plants. I do need to read up on that though
00:50 < jrayhawk> oh, fenn stated it and his environment has an invalid TZ
00:51 < jrayhawk> fenn: you probably want to use PST8PDT
00:52 < jrayhawk> not sure if i care enough to fix that
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01:24 < kanzure> wat
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01:41 < maaku> andytoshi: Paul Christiano is now on the OpenAI team : https://openai.com/blog/team-update/
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04:21 < andytoshi> maaku: nice. I don't know the other names there and I'm not familiar with the project, what do you think about them?
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05:32 < nmz787> comma8: http://www.voltammetry.net/_media/pine/pine/drl10008_anodic_stripping_analysis_of_lead_in_water_laboratory_.pdf
05:35 < Jawmare> nmz787, had to do a presentation on stripping voltametry
05:35 < Jawmare> worst experience in my life
05:56 < abetusk> nmz787, clipper lib basically implements Vatti's algorithm for arbitrary polygon boolean operations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatti_clipping_algorithm).  It sounds like you maybe want to convert to some sort of bitmap, then 'smooth' the edges from being stepped to being straight...like some sort of reverse bresenham's line algorithm.  Maybe clipperlib could help you clean up after the fact, I don't know.
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05:56 < abetusk> what exactly are you trying to do?
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06:39 < comma8> I'm gonna do you a solid right now.
06:39 < comma8> Take this advice: Sit up with good posture. Look straight forward, your face should be at a right angle with your neck, and a straight back. Now, raise your computer screen to be level with your face.
06:39 < comma8> I've got my laptop sitting on a big tub on top of a table. It feels really good. And when I get a bit tired of sitting with good posture, I can lean forward and rest my chin on the tub, and still see the screen. It's the most ergonomic setup I've ever felt.
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07:40 < maaku> andytoshi: OpenAI is the new hip thing. it's the paypal mafia plus a few other well known VCs investing in AI to save the world
07:41 < maaku> .title https://openai.com/blog/introducing-openai/
07:41 < yoleaux> Introducing OpenAI
07:52 < maaku> more cynically it's a couple of well known machine learning researchers who scored big getting some billionaires to fund their research team
07:52 < maaku> it's an all-star founding team and they've been picking up anybody with talent
08:01 < maaku> my cynicism is more sour grapes because they claim to be creating real strong AGI in the open to save the world, but the founders don't seem to care about any work that has actually been done on AGI
08:01 < maaku> it's your standard machine learning research shop, except with really really good AAA+ talent and infinite funding.
08:02 < maaku> so good for Paul
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10:36 < fenn> are bubble boys generally ok mentally?
10:37 < fenn> people with no gut microbiome
--- Log closed Thu May 26 10:51:46 2016
--- Log opened Thu May 26 10:51:46 2016
--- Log closed Thu May 26 10:51:46 2016
--- Log opened Thu May 26 03:52:12 2016
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03:52 -!- Topic for ##hplusroadmap: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | sponsored by lobsters everywhere, banned by the Federal Death Administration (5 times) | this channel is LOGGED: http://gnusha.org/logs | http://diyhpl.us/wiki | "ray kurzweil is a pessimist" - george church
03:52 -!- Topic set by kanzure [~kanzure@unaffiliated/kanzure] [Wed May 20 12:46:25 2015]
03:52 [Users ##hplusroadmap]
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03:53 < fenn> jrayhawk: thanks, i thought the clock mismatch was because of some virtualization cockup
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05:41 < FourFire> fenn not sure how you'd control for the environmental factors of isolation
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05:43 < FourFire> I'm pretty sure there's some amount of mental not fucked upness which results from physical contact with other people; maybe even including pheremone signals sent from mother to child during breastfeeding
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06:33 < maaku> FourFire you have a control group raised by wolves, obviously
06:35 < FourFire> maaku, then you just introduce more confounding factors; Incdentally do I seem to be more socially retarded just because I usually pretend joke responses are serious and respond a if they were?
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07:26 < fenn> you have a control group raised by bubble parents, obviously
07:31 < JayDugger> Good morning.
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10:47 < maaku> a fun project for those who want to learn about high vacuum or high voltage setups : http://shia.wsyntax.com/stuff/fusion/fusor_book_web.pdf
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10:47 < maaku> (a tabletop Farnswoth fusion device)
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10:50 < nmz787_i> Jawmare: I've done anodic stripping voltammetry and had to write a report on it... for a top-level undergrad analytical chemistry course that focused heavily on report writing (not just good experimental results... the idea being if you can't effectively communicate the results, why waste time on experiments that can't be shared)
10:51 < nmz787_i> Jawmare: I remember it going alright... but also that it all made really good sense in my head... all the chemistry and analog electronics concepts connected up well for me
10:51 < nmz787_i> abetusk: I want to take a 3D model, grab a slice, and machine (laser) that slice on my CNC
10:52 < fenn> that "fun project" will likely cost thousands of dollars and a year of weekends
10:52 < nmz787_i> abetusk: I've got some notes from a BRLCAD developer on shooting rays to detect intersection... so I can raster over the model's area from top-down view... shooting rays, finding where the model intersects
10:53 < nmz787_i> fenn: which?
10:53 < fenn> the fusor
10:53 < maaku> fenn: as all fun projects should
10:53 < nmz787_i> maaku: do you follow fusor.net/board at all?
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10:53 < maaku> nah, just came upon this in a HN comment
10:53 < nmz787_i> I've learned to appreciate that place more and more
10:53 < nmz787_i> ah
10:54 < maaku> "oh I built a fusion device. it's not too hard. here's some pictures..."
10:54 < nmz787_i> might help to get my SEM up and running
10:55 < maaku> yeah actually I was thinking the same thing w.r.t high vacuum
10:55 < nmz787_i> fenn: actually there were two kid brothers in Berkeley that seemed to achieve fusion in under a year... though it seems they must have had reasonably wealthy parents who were also keen on buying them weird shit
10:56 < maaku> is there some way I can switch parents?
10:56 < nmz787_i> hahah
10:57 < fenn> was it enginuitor? (greg courville)
10:57 < nmz787_i> just few weeks ago I was visiting some friends who live at a place which rents out an apartment online... and the guest was some old couple... the guy started talking my ear off after I mentioned being an engineer/scientist
10:57 < nmz787_i> he started telling me about some kind of 'free energy' thing... which seemed more like nuclear reaction type stuff
10:58 < nmz787_i> mentioned something about http://radiopaedia.org/articles/larmor-frequency
10:59 < nmz787_i> fenn: looks like internet-name is 'Kuba Anglin' http://www.fusor.net/board/viewtopic.php?t=9880&p=66417
11:00 < fenn> https://plus.google.com/+GregCourville his page makes me feel relatively less awesome somehow
11:01 < maaku> nmz787_i: sadly those two boys are going to end up on some t- watch list
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11:02 < maaku> nmz787_i: you are actually working on a SEM?
11:02 < nmz787_i> t meaning trans?
11:02 < fenn> well nuclear resonance seems like the sort of thing that might result in nuclear reactions at low energies, if anything...
11:02 < maaku> nmz787_i: i was trying to avoid saying terrorist on the interwebs, damnit
11:03 < fenn> but then the anti-terrorists will have won
11:03 < nmz787_i> maaku: yeah I haven't spent much time on it.... still haven't even powered it on since purchasing a year ago... though I did bring it into my house from storage about a month ago https://www.takeitapart.com/guide/136
11:04 < maaku> nice
11:04 < maaku> i got to play with one of those in university. 'play' is the right word -- those things are fun
11:04 < fenn> <- second class web citizen
11:05  * fenn imagines what the web page might look like
11:05 < nmz787_i> hmm
11:05 < nmz787_i> it shouldn't be too bandwidth heavy
11:05 < maaku> we were growing silicon nanowires and measuring their properties
11:05 < nmz787_i> unless it loads via ajax
11:05 < fenn> it doesn't display without javascript
11:06 < nmz787_i> ah, yeah we were too lazy to think about a nice way to do fallback
11:06 < nmz787_i> https://www.takeitapart.com/media/userimages/FKj0nfa.jpg/square/
11:06 < nmz787_i> https://www.takeitapart.com/media/userimages/5KWt6uK.jpg/square/
11:06 < fenn> o wait maybe it's a SSL error
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11:07 < nmz787_i> https://www.takeitapart.com/media/userimages/MGpNOYi.jpg
11:07 < fenn> "SSL handshake failed"
11:07 < nmz787_i> maaku: cool!
11:08 < nmz787_i> fenn: not cool!
11:08 < nmz787_i> I am pretty sure we only allow the most recent SSL
11:08 < nmz787_i> the one that hasn't been exploited yet
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11:08 < nmz787_i> maybe the only backdoor they can get you with, not having javascript enabled, is an SSL backdoor!
11:10 < fenn> well dillo and surf and elinks don't like it, w3m works, and chrome is still swapping in
11:10 < fenn> have you considered not using SSL?
11:12 < fenn> also did you end up getting a jeep rubicon?
11:18 < kanzure> fenn you should really go meet maaku since you are awake
11:19 < fenn> um, no
11:19 < fenn> not today at least
11:19 < maaku> lol yeah not today
11:19 < kanzure> also, i think i have figured out how to schedule things for you....
11:20 < maaku> we did meet at the sidechains alpha release
11:20 < kanzure> it seems like fenn needs to schedule things with two points, separated by 9 or 12 hours i think, such that if his sleep schedule interferes with the first one, then the second one is an available option
11:20 < kanzure> and then he can just cancel the first one when he's relatively close on the calendar and can tell if it will be conflicting with sleep
11:21 < kanzure> and then just schedule two weeks out with everyone so that they have enough room to schedule two different things
11:21 < fenn> do other people have 12 hours of wiggle room for making appointments?
11:21 < kanzure> well, they probably have more "wiggle room" if it's more than a week out
11:22 < kanzure> and also it's not really wiggle room-- it's just two different times
11:22 < maaku> does fenn have a non-24hr clock?
11:22 < fenn> yeah
11:22 < fenn> 24.5 or so
11:22 < kanzure> he has a very stable multi-decade non-24 hour clock
11:23 < fenn> beagle time
11:23 < maaku> ah. interesting.
11:23 < maaku> you martian you.
11:23 < fenn> beagle being the mars lander timezone yep
11:23 < maaku> they actually tried that for the MER rovers in the early days, but the science team couldn't keep it up
11:24 < nmz787_i> fenn: I didn't get a jeep... I am not that rich (yet, hopefully)... i ended up getting a car trailer to haul large materials/etc
11:24 < maaku> fenn: does it have some variance for you?
11:24 < fenn> yeah lots of variance
11:24 < fenn> sometimes i get out of sync with myself even
11:25 < fenn> there are several circadian clocks
11:25 < maaku> you should have kids. that'll fix it.
11:25 < maaku> definately with no side effects.
11:25 < nmz787_i> overloaded the trailer 3X the recommended weight in the Jetta TDI car's manual
11:25 < fenn> sure the kid has some chance of having a normal brain and then i'm just obsolete, that'll fix it
11:25 < nmz787_i> (3000lbs instead of the recommended 1000lbs... trailer was rated to 1900lbs)
11:26 < maaku> (sorry I am seriously interested, but I'm on 36 hrs no sleep myself and a little loopy)
11:26 < nmz787_i> it felt fine though, that TDI engine is pretty nice
11:26 < fenn> heh well you can see the graphs at fennetic.net/sleep later if you're still interested
11:26 < maaku> oh awesome thanks
11:28 < maaku> I seem to recall there were studies done that showed a natural 24.5 hr cycle in the absence of natural cues
11:28 < maaku> people in drab buildings with no windows and electric lights and all that
11:29 < maaku> unfortunately i have no citation
11:33 < fenn> i read some nasa studies on sleep cycles in the absence of cues
11:33 < fenn> basically the same thing
11:34 < maaku> i think that's what it was
11:35 < maaku> it would make sense that some people are wired to be more or less fixed to that schedule than others
11:36 < fenn> if the wiring (the suprachiasmatic nucleus) is damaged, you lose sync with light cues
11:36 < fenn> according to medical literature, people like me don't exist, but i've met lots of them, one stopped over last night
11:37 < maaku> you tried melatonin?
11:38 < fenn> yeah and it does have an effect but it's too hard to absorb it at the right time every day
11:39 < fenn> i really should try to do more experiments with 5-HTP
11:39 < kanzure> pfft clearly we need to do mainline melatonin
11:39 < fenn> or insufflation
11:39 < fenn> hard to get pure melatonin powder
11:40 < fenn> http://purebulk.com/melatonin-powder/ ok i lied
11:40 < maaku> fenn: i think you are now required to start snorting it. For Science.
11:41 < fenn> "servings per container: about 3333"
11:44 < fenn> i also find it hard to convince myself to drug myself to sleep even though i am currently doing stuff and interested and want to continue doing whatever it is
11:45 < fenn> like theoretically in the long term over the span of years it's probably better for my life in general, but at any given moment it's a loss
11:46 < kanzure> have you considered killing your sense of childhood wonder? that might work.
11:46 < fenn> no, i haven't
11:46 < fenn> HTP definitely adds to the sense of childhood wonder though
11:47 < fenn> "More likely if you take a Melatonin overdose, you may experience hallucinations, delusions, disorientation, confusion and paranoia. These are side effects not to be taken lightly as they can be very disturbing."
11:47 < fenn> par for the course
11:53 < maaku> melatonin is about as safe as it gets -- i use superdoses for jetlag recovery.
11:54 < maaku> but still if it ain't broke don't fix it
11:54 < maaku> would probably be useful to experiment with if you need to keep a fixed schedule for some period of time though
11:54 < fenn> yeah i predictable go insane at a day job in 2 months
11:55 < maaku> or have you tried migrating westward 520 miles each day?
11:55 < fenn> that's on my list for sure
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11:56 < fenn> stupid panama canal suez canal
11:57 < fenn> also i'd probably need a nuclear reactor
11:57 < maaku> get one of those russian nuclear subs they mothballed a few years back
11:57 < maaku> if the cartels haven't bought them up already
11:59 < kanzure> if we tell thiel that gawker took one from us then i'm sure he'll foot the bill just to spite 'em
12:09 < kanzure> zurich meeting notes https://bitcoincore.org/logs/2016-05-zurich-meeting-notes.txt
12:10 < xentrac_> nmz787_i: I thought it was established that geophagy was driven by the need to detoxify food by adsorbing toxins?
12:10 < xentrac_> either that or stopping diarrhea
12:10 < xentrac_> (although I'm not sure kaopectate is still made of dirt)
12:12 < fenn> clay
12:13 < fenn> probably limiting free iron was more important in societies with inadequate dieteary protein
12:13 < fenn> hence all the bloodletting etc
12:17 < xentrac_> comma8: radon will not poison plants.  it has a half-life of 3.8 days, decaying into an isotope of polonium, and then a highly radioactive isotope of lead, then a highly radioactive isotope of bismuth, then an unbelievably radioactive isotope of polonium, then a very slightly radioactive isotope of lead, which lasts for a few years
12:17 < xentrac_> none of this sequence, which happens within a matter of days, is abundant enough to care about its chemical toxicity; it's all just radioactive
12:17 < fenn> "geophagia among southerners may have been caused by the high prevalence of hookworm disease, in which the desire to consume soil is a symptom."
12:18 < xentrac_> a couple more decays and it's become an isotope of lead so stable it's never been observed to decay
12:20 < xentrac_> maaku: Moravec's paradox suggests to me that machine-learning research might actually be the important missing piece for AGI
12:21 < xentrac_> the latest piece of evidence along those lines is Radford, Metz, and Chintala's DCGAN (http://arxiv.org/abs/1511.06434)
12:21 < xentrac_> maaku: thanks for the fusor book!  that's awesome!
12:22 < fenn> "parrots regularly eat seeds and unripe fruits containing alkaloids and other toxins that render them bitter and even lethal. Because many of these chemicals become positively charged in the acidic stomach, they bind to clay minerals which have negatively charged cation-exchange sites, and are thereby rendered safe."
12:23 < comma8> Thanks xentrac_, that's helpful. The top search results on the topic said radon is not a problem, but didn't give any detail. And the technically detailed results I found were too complicated for me to truly understand at a glance. You sound knowledgable so I trust you.
12:24 < fenn> radon is a gas, it can travel hundreds of miles before collecting in a low spot and reaching high concentrations, so unless you're growing plants in your basement it's unlikely they will be exposed to high levels of radon
12:24 < xentrac_> fenn: you think that it might be feasible to stimulate emission from metastable hafnium excited states with nuclear magnetic resonance?  that seems doubtful to me but what I don't understand is why normal stimulated emission with X-rays doesn't just work
12:25 < fenn> i thought it did work
12:25 < fenn> if it did work you can be sure there is a lot of disinformation about it
12:25 < comma8> I'm a big fan of DIY projects, but I am probably going to hire professionals to install a radon mitigation system
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12:28 < xentrac_> huh, I didn't know about the hookworm disease thing.  what are the symptoms of hookworm?  I'd think you'd need to absorb more iron in that case rather than less
12:28 < xentrac_> comma8: I'm not actually knowledgeable; I just looked all that stuff up in Wikipedia
12:28 < fenn> "The most significant risk of hookworm infection is anemia, secondary to loss of iron (and protein) in the gut."
12:29 < xentrac_> so you'd think that geophagy, if it was related to hookworm, would be as a way to get more iron
12:29 < xentrac_> which seems pretty plausible
12:29 < fenn> yeah
12:29 < comma8> xentrac_, whatever, my life is in your hands now
12:29 < xentrac_> but contradicts where we started
12:29 < xentrac_> comma8: oh awesome!  how can I use that fact to profit myself?
12:29 < fenn> i'll admit i didnt read the first paper about geophagy not having nutritional value
12:30 < xentrac_> neither did I
12:30 < comma8> You should probably start by taking out a life insurance policy on me
12:30 < xentrac_> does that actually work? I thought insurance companies wereh ip to that kind of thing
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12:31 < kanzure> d/win 8
12:31 < kanzure> ejridfjoidaa
12:31 < xentrac_> comma8: I think the usual radon mitigation system is, like, a grille in the wall so that air can pass in and out
12:31 < xentrac_> or, in extreme cases, a fan
12:32 < fenn> there's a special paint they use to seal the wall
12:34 < maaku> Sadly Life Insurance exempts all the ways you guys are likely to kill each other
12:34 < fenn> hafnium nanoparticle explosion?
12:35 < maaku> Probably falls under the overly Broad Clause that is meant to capture nuclear warfare
12:35 < fenn> do insurance companies pay out in the case of nuclear armageddon?
12:36 < fenn> i guess it's like one of those "one hand clapping" things
12:36 < maaku> No, they don't.
12:37 < maaku> If nothing else there are exemptions related to Warfare
12:38 < kanzure> what about only mild nuclear annihilation, perhaps an insurance policy could be crafted for that
12:38 < kanzure> i think i have figured it out--- here's how we solve The Problem
12:38 < kanzure> we're going to sign a $100 billion insurance policy against the moon's destruction
12:38 < kanzure> next we'll blow up the fucking moon
12:39 < fenn> pretty sure the moon's worth more than that
12:39 < kanzure> that's not how negotiation works
12:39 < kanzure> wait, maybe it is
12:39 < fenn> you could just sell the moon back to the UN after taking it
12:39 < kanzure> united nations? aren't they broke?
12:39 < fenn> everything's broke
12:40 < kanzure> we'll send the invoice to john galt
12:40 < maaku> kanzure: pretty sure it's easier to short whatever market is considered stable and then destroy the wold economy again
12:40 < maaku> that seems to have worked the last time
12:40 < fenn> "As with 180mTa, there are disputed reports that 178m2Hf can be stimulated into releasing its energy, and as a result the substance is being studied as a possible source for gamma ray lasers. These reports also indicate that the energy is released very quickly, so that 178m2Hf can produce extremely high powers (on the order of exawatts)."  citations go nowhere, 404, not mentioning hafnium etc
12:41 < fenn> i bet my dad knows
12:43 < fenn> "there was a disturbing absence of a reality check in this proposal" lol
12:46 < fenn> someone please write a bot to automatically archive every wikipedia citation
12:46 < fenn> ffs
12:49 < fenn> xentrac_: http://www.hafniumisomer.org/Hafnium_isomer_triggering.htm
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12:53 < fenn> xentrac_: http://www.hafniumisomer.org/cqeseg3.htm
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12:55 < fenn> obviously it's a lot to read
12:57 < xentrac_> fenn: I don't feel like I understand stimulated and induced emission in general
12:58 < xentrac_> but the little that I do understand makes me think that it should totally be possible to trigger gamma emission
12:59 < xentrac_> and it should be pretty easy, relatively speaking
12:59 < fenn> yeah there's a lot of physics jargon i don't understand
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12:59 < xentrac_> on the other hand, I feel like there's enough open literature about this, and enough potential exciting uses, that if it worked, it would have been widely replicated
13:00 < fenn> it has been replicated, in russia and texas at least
13:00 < fenn> not many people have huge linacs to play with
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13:01 < fenn> xentrac_: you realize the weaponization potential, right?
13:03 < fenn> darpa had an obsession over the "nuclear hand grenade" for a couple decades (late 80s to 90s)
13:03 < xentrac_> the little that I understand of stimulated and induced emission is in section 4–4 of Volume III of Feynman Lectures on Physics
13:03 < xentrac_> although it's full of bras and kets that I can manipulate but don't feel like I really understand
13:04 < fenn> if you bump a table with dominoes on it just a little bit they won't fall over, but if you shake it at their resonance frequency they will
13:05 < xentrac_> I don't think that's a good analogy
13:05 < xentrac_> I mean it suggests causal relationships that don't hold
13:05 < fenn> please elaborate
13:05 < xentrac_> there's substantial weaponization potential, but also really substantial non-weapon potential
13:06 < xentrac_> there is no resonator involved in stimulated boson emission
13:07 < xentrac_> consequently there's no Q factor, no damping factor, and no time lag between the time you start the stimulation and the time that the photon gets emitted
13:09 < xentrac_> the biggest potential application, I think, is space travel
13:09 < fenn> high power density miniature reactors have a lot of uses
13:10 < xentrac_> sure.  airplanes, submarines, cars
13:10 < xentrac_> maybe not wind-up toys, but maybe cellphones
13:10 < xentrac_> but it's not a thing that you need in order to make airplanes, submarines, and cars
13:11 < fenn> we could get pretty far along in solar system development with just a tether momentum exchange network
13:12 < fenn> .g MERITT tether
13:12 < yoleaux> fenn: Sorry, that command (.g) crashed.
13:13 < xentrac_> yeah, and metastable hafnium triggering wouldn't allow you to omit propellant entirely except for photon rockets
13:13 < xentrac_> (would it?)
13:15 < fenn> referring again to doctor forward... yes virginia, you can reflect gamma rays, with grazing optics made from nanometer thick layers of elements going up the periodic table one element at a time
13:16 < xentrac_> haha
13:16 < fenn> but who needs infinite ISP really
13:16 < xentrac_> you don't need to reflect them, although it helps
13:16 < fenn> oh, instead of shooting gamma rays out the back you could just make electricity with the heat and use an ion engine
13:16 < xentrac_> I was thinking you'd just absorb the ones that went the wrong way
13:17 < xentrac_> right, what I was saying about omitting propellant is, where do you get the ions?
13:17 < fenn> you take them with you
13:17 < fenn> xenon is a popular ion
13:18 < fenn> you could go door to door offering radon reduction services, but secretly you're making a killing reselling it to the aerospace industry
13:19 < xentrac_> haha
13:19 < xentrac_> the point is that that doesn't solve the Tsiolkovskii problem
13:19 < fenn> well there's the bussard ramjet but i'm not convinced
13:20 < xentrac_> you still have to devote an absurd fraction of your space probe to propellant mass if you want to go fast by taking xenon ions with you
13:20 < fenn> another option is beamed power and beamed reaction mass
13:20 < fenn> and just hope nothing goes wrong
13:21 < xentrac_> being able to accelerate the ions to a higher exhaust velocity with hafnium-stored energy would be a bonus, but only a linear one, not an exponential one
13:21 < xentrac_> you mean like the denizens of Tabby's Star getting nervous about the high-energy particle beam you're pointing at them? :)
13:21 < fenn> they'll never see it coming
13:21 < fenn> relativistic weapons are stealth weapons
13:22 < fenn> the benefit of hafnium isn't higher exhaust velocity, it's reduced reactor mass
13:23 < xentrac_> it's higher exhaust velocity than burning hydrogen or hydrazine!
13:23 < fenn> i mean versus thermal fission reactors of the traditional sort
13:23 < xentrac_> I see
13:23 < xentrac_> because you don't need a critical mass?
13:24 < xentrac_> and in space you don't even need shielding as long as you can manage to keep your reactor at the end of a long cable
13:24 < fenn> you probably want a little sheilding
13:25 < xentrac_> I guess I was totally wrong; for large spacecraft, you're better off fissioning uranium or plutonium rather than metastable hafnium
13:25 < xentrac_> oh, related to that, here's another nuclear energy puzzle I've been trying to figure out
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13:26 < kanzure> maaku has one about near-earth dark matter
13:26 < xentrac_> don't you get substantial excess energy just by pointing a thorium-reactor-style neutron beam at a pipe full of FLiNaK or FliBe coolant?  Because it should cause both lithium-6 and lithium-7 to energetically fission, right?
13:27 < xentrac_> and if that's the case then why are we fooling around trying to dissolve thorium fluoride in the coolant when lithium is so much cheaper and more abundant?
13:28 < xentrac_> I feel like I must be missing something obvious because it's not like nobody has thought about irradiating molten lithium salts with neutrons
13:28 < fenn> because where do you get the neutrons?
13:28 < xentrac_> in fact it's done constantly in hundreds if not thousands of active reactors around the world
13:28 < xentrac_> from a particle accelerator
13:28 < fenn> well i don't know what to tell you, it sounds like a good idea
13:28 < xentrac_> spalling them off of mercury, multiplying them with beryllium, whatever
13:29 < fenn> i asked a nuclear chemist the same question and got a non-answer
13:29 < xentrac_> you did?
13:29 < fenn> someone at halcyon molecular
13:30 < xentrac_> so it's not even that it's a nonobvious question to ask, if it's occurred to other people who don't even invent nuclear reactors for a living (I assume you don't)
13:30 < kanzure> he did so in another life
13:31 < fenn> i foolishly didn't purchase the "designing nucelar reactors" book at my estate sale
13:33 < xentrac_> according to WP, Castle Bravo had an extra 7 to 11 megatons of yield due to containing less than 400 kilograms of lithium-6 deuteride, giving at least 73 TJ/kg for the energy density of the lithium-6
13:37 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sailor_Hat_Shot.jpg the origins of minecraft
13:38 < xentrac_> heh
13:42 < xentrac_> the only possibility that occurs to me is that our available controllable scalable neutron sources are too energy-hungry (i.e. inefficient) to make this a viable energy source
13:44 < fenn> neutron sources have improved several orders of magnitude in efficiency and compactness over the last few decades
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13:44 < fenn> don't ask me to cite anything though
13:44 < xentrac_> have they?  can we power our lithium reactor with a farnsworth fusor now? :)
13:46 < xentrac_> that might explain why neutron-induced lithium fission wasn't a practical option when the MSR experiment was carried out and current commercial reactors were designed
13:47 < fenn> in the 1950s?
13:47 < fenn> 1965-1969
13:47 < xentrac_> yeah, sorry, 1960s
13:48 < xentrac_> it seems like it would be challenging to get a significant fraction of the energy input of a particle accelerator into the accelerated particles
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13:50 < fenn> add to that the problem of getting the energy of the accelerated particles into the generated neutrons
13:50 < nmz787_i> comma8: radon mitigation is usually some smartly placed fans.... in my house I have a room that was probably originally a garage, so the floor is a cement slab.... which could be capping the earth below it and radon is diffusing through (I haven't checked... but compared to the rest of the house which is built on a wooden frame which is raised ~2 feet from ground, with ventilation at the edges of the crawlspace)... anyway the fix would probably
13:50 < nmz787_i> be to cut a hole through the cement slab in a closet or something, and install an exhaust fan (exhausting the underside of the slab to above the roof of the house)
13:50 < nmz787_i> comma8: so nothing too fancy is what I mean
13:51 < nmz787_i> and I see xentrac_ basically said that too
13:54 < fenn> .title http://world-nuclear.org/information-library/current-and-future-generation/accelerator-driven-nuclear-energy.aspx
13:54 < yoleaux> Accelerator-driven Nuclear Energy | Accelerator Driven Systems | Transmutation - World Nuclear Association
13:54 < xentrac_> also fenn pointed out that painting your basement with nonporous paint helps
13:55 < xentrac_> so that it takes a few weeks for the radon generated in the soil to diffuse through the cement into the air
14:00 < fenn> not sure but i think you need lithium-8 to get neutron emission
14:02 < xentrac_> the Castle Bravo article says lithium-6 fissions to an alpha and tritium, while lithium-7 fissions to an alpha, tritium, and another neutron
14:02 < xentrac_> lithium-7 is 92.7% of all lithium
14:03 < nmz787_i> http://www.psikick.com/technology/    "An entirely integrated self-powering wireless sensing solution that uses 1/1,000th the power of equivalent commercial products serves as the cornerstone for the next computing revolution."
14:04 < nmz787_i> found via http://eecs.umich.edu/eecs/about/articles/2016/googling-the-physical-world.html
14:04 < xentrac_> so you don't get a chain reaction (even a petering-out one as with thorium) from lithium-6, but you do get fission
14:05 < nmz787_i> "Their short term goals are to get their first chip to market by mid-2016, and hire up to 50 employees (they currently employ about 26). Their first chip isn’t a full system – just a wake-up radio and energy harvester – but it’s enough to show off their capabilities and get capital flowing. The production version is in its qualification stage, and will be ready to demonstrate in January."
14:05 < xentrac_> lithium-7 gives you a neutron, but lithium-6 will absorb the majority of the neutrons because its cross-section is twenty thousand times greater
14:06 < xentrac_> nmz787_i: oh, so it's not a fraud?  the statement you quoted sounded like a perpetual-motion machine company
14:07 < fenn> hmm so you want extra-depleted lithium or whatever it's called
14:07 < xentrac_> I don't think you're going to get lithium-6 down to less than 0.005%
14:08 < fenn> can you just burn up the li-6 with neutrons until it's gone?
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14:09 < xentrac_> oh, that's, uh, a good point, isn't it?
14:09 < xentrac_> I bet you can
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14:09 < xentrac_> but even if you can't, that's probably okay, because both of them fission quite energetically
14:10 < fenn> is the neutron emitted by li-7 enough energy to sustain a chain reaction? or does this only work in nuclear bombs?
14:11 < fenn> [citation needed]
14:15 < xentrac_> yeah, I don't know
14:15 < xentrac_> higher energy isn't always better
14:15 < fenn> if it's too high it can be moderated at least
14:16 < xentrac_> yes
14:16 < xentrac_> true
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14:16 < nmz787_i> xentrac_: seems not, likely some base station broadcasts RF energy, these gizmos harvest that and do some work, store enough power to turn on a transmitter... but its all coming ultimately from the base station broadcast coming from the wall outlet power... they mention their first prototype in college was powered solely by heat... so they likely have a bag of tricks for power
14:16 < fenn> sounds like RFID
14:17 < fenn> what does "the chip" do?
14:18 < nmz787_i> seems like other than radio, CPU and ability to support an external sensor
14:18 < nmz787_i> so likely weather station type stuff
14:19 < nmz787_i> piezo vibration alerts
14:20 < xentrac_> you could probably do a remotely readable (≈1km) thermometer with no electronics at all
14:20 < nmz787_i> I wonder if it could be smart about waiting longer to transmit data over the mesh, to somehow also transfer power via meshing
14:21 < xentrac_> six different colors of laser light for six bits of readout precision, filters, corner reflectors, that kind of thing
14:22 < nmz787_i> yeah but when the target moves...
14:22 < nmz787_i> what if you want these on the backs of each of your cows
14:22 < fenn> shoot the cow
14:22 < nmz787_i> to detect temp + vibration (mating)
14:22 < nmz787_i> ha
14:24 < fenn> well the psikick website is very breathless and uses lots of large numbers but i read it all and still have no idea what it is
14:25 < xentrac_> then you need twelve colors: six more bits to tell you the orientation of the thermometer ;)
14:25 < xentrac_> I guess you still need to aim your twelve lasers at the cow
14:28 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subthreshold_conduction
14:30  * fenn sleeps
14:34 < xentrac_> goodnight, fenn
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15:18 < maaku> fenn: of what practical value is a nuclear hand grenade?
15:22 < xentrac_> maaku: are you thinking that it would be useless because you couldn't throw it far enough?
15:22 < xentrac_> because the practical value is that it blows things up, but that's obvious
15:26 < chris_99> was it actually supposed to be a grenade?
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15:29 < xentrac_> yeah, they definitely wanted a hand grenade if they could get one
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15:29 < xentrac_> I mean every military does
15:31 < xentrac_> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafnium_controversy gives the energy density as 2.5 MeV per nucleus
15:32 < xentrac_> units '25 MeV / 178 amu' 'TJ/kg' says that would be 13 TJ/kg
15:33 < xentrac_> units '(25 MeV / 178 amu) / tnt' says it would be 2.9 million times as powerful as TNT
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15:35 < xentrac_> so a 750g hand grenade would be about 2.2 kilotons if you could get 100% stimulated emission efficiency
15:35 < xentrac_> with no fallout
15:38 < xentrac_> this is 100 times the size of the Davy Crockett nuclear bazooka
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15:39 < xentrac_> nowadays a more useful thing to do would be to go smaller, if you could, down to a gram or so, and blanket an area with a mesh network of remotely triggerable mines
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18:09 < abetusk> nmz787, and you can't grab a polygonal slice from the 3d model?  If you have a polygon, then done.  If you have a bitmap and you want to get rid of all of those tiny 'steps', then you have to do something more complicated
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18:56 < panax> http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/05/26/055624
19:01 < kanzure> .title
19:01 < yoleaux> Could a neuroscientist understand a microprocessor? | bioRxiv
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21:23 < kanzure> "Automatic discovery of cell types and microcircuitry from neural connectomics" http://elifesciences.org/content/4/e04250
21:23 < kanzure> http://ericmjonas.github.io/connectodiscovery/
21:27 < kanzure> .title http://www.softmachines.org/wordpress/?p=1558#more-1558
21:27 < yoleaux> Your mind will not be uploaded – Soft Machines
21:27 < kanzure> (gross, that person believes in identity!)
21:32  * justanotheruser notes that you shamed me for reading soft machines, but now are reading the blog!
21:33 < kanzure> yeah this is pretty shit
21:33 < kanzure> thanks
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21:38 < kanzure> "A start-up from Boston called Sample6 is using phages in diagnostics, currently only for food but it is start"
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--- Log closed Fri May 27 00:00:12 2016