--- Log opened Sat Oct 29 00:00:35 2016
00:09 < Taek> kanzure: for me, evolutionary success has a pretty simple definition
00:09 < Taek> and it's the ability to persist
00:09 < Taek> so, the fact that you exist today is active demonstration of your evolutionary success, and of the evolutionary success of your predecessors.
00:10 < Taek> In it's ultimate form it's a binary, either you exist today (success), or you don't (failures). And in less absolute terms it's a probability vector of you continuing to exist into the future
00:13 < Taek> and, yeah I have a lot of thoughts on death and evolution, I think there's a lot more than what you can cover in some simple comment thread back and forths
00:14 < Taek> Aging is what natural selection came up with, which suggests to me that it's got advantages. Perhaps the ability to recognize that your time is coming (older people tend to focus a lot more on boosting up the younger generation), or being able to recognize who is close to death
00:14 < Taek> or perhaps some other mechanisms
00:15 < Taek> We can probably do better, but I would be slow to say that it's easy to do so
00:17 < Taek> I might even compare the complexity of death to the complexity of the human brain. Surely we can do better, but we've also got a ways to go
00:21 < nmz787_> juri_: I think it was like 5 microns
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02:46 < fenn> epistemically unjustifiable statements abound
02:54 < TMA> fenn: why refridgerators do not have their sides from evacuated bilayer metal sandwich (like in the stainless vacuum flask) to improve the insulation? probably the same reason why LN2 is used: cost
03:01 < TMA> Taek: aging and death are method of maintenance -- it is "cheaper" to create new gene-carrying vehicles and let the old gene-carrying vehicle die
03:02 < TMA> (for a given ecological niche)
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06:06 < kanzure> Taek: aging has had advantages, but for who? society? certainly not the individual.
06:07 < kanzure> specifically i mean advanced aging and death
06:19 < kanzure> and regarding societal benefits - there are a bunch of arguments to consider re: extreme societal cost of advanced aging, healthcare, etc.
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06:45 < kanzure> gmaxwell reply https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12822393
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07:28 < Taek> yeah saw the reply. Preparing my own reply, was too tired last night though and didn't want to post something low quality
07:29 < Taek> I think a lot of those costs are costs we bought on ourselves. E.g. chemotherapy, a lot of oncologists say they would rather die naturally of cancer than undergo chemo (for the more difficult cancers, at least)
07:30 < Taek> certainly there are times when it would be good for individuals to live longer
07:30 < Taek> the world we live in today is very different than the world evolution optimized us for
07:30 < Taek> resource constraints and opportunities are dramatically different
07:31 < juri_> nmz787_: so, you need this to render to 0.0001 mm.
07:32 < juri_> nmz787_: not a problem, nowadays. the version two months ago would not have handled it.
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08:37 < kanzure> Pent: hi.
08:39 < Pent> kanzure, hi
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10:23 < fenn> it is cheaper to create new gene-carrying vehicles, and so the immortal soul lives on
10:24 < fenn> surely all would accept formalin fixation and genome sequencing as an alternative to life
10:25 < fenn> hey, it's cheaper than liquid nitrogen!!!
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10:54 < kanzure> formalin fixation and a few other steps..
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11:50 < nmz787_> juri_: I checked both github and gitorius... am I looking for something other than implicitcad? (sorry there are a lot of CAD programs I've tried in the past several years)
11:50 < nmz787_> juri_: meaning, none of the code repo's seem to have recent updates
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13:54 < fenn> https://www.wired.com/2016/05/google-tpu-custom-chips/ neural net ASIC
13:55 < fenn> you'd think nvidia would have done it first
13:56 < fenn> i'm surprised nobody is using analog computers to run neural networks
13:56 < chris_99> it doesn't look like google is planning to sell their chip though right?
14:03 < fenn> meh it's not like nobody saw this coming
14:03 < fenn> i've been thinking about it for at least 5 years
14:04 < fenn> you can do analog computing in FPGA too
14:04 < chris_99> FPAA?
14:06 < fenn> "Currently there are very few manufactures of FPAAs with companies such as Anadigm and Okika Technologies Inc. serving as the primary producers. On-chip resources are still very limited when compared to that of an FPGA."
14:06 < chris_99> i didn't think fpgas where really for analog
14:06 < fenn> they're not
14:06 < chris_99> i've got one of the anadigm chips
14:06 < chris_99> i keep meaning to play with
14:07 < fenn> haven't you read about those evolutionary programming experiments where the algorithm evolved some wacky analog feedback loops that broke abstraction layers over the place
14:07 < chris_99> you mean where they used digital computation to create an analog component?
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14:09 < fenn> no, i mean they programmed the fpga with a bitstream and the calculation was dependent on analog effects in the circuitry
14:09 < chris_99> oh you mean like PUFs?
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14:09 < fenn> what is "PUF"?
14:10 < fenn> "physically unclonable function"
14:10 < fenn> no i don't care about that
14:10 < chris_99> physically unclonable function, there are fpga implementation, where they use race conditions which depend on the silicon fab
14:10 < chris_99> thus unique to each fpga
14:11 < chris_99> i've no idea what you mean then
14:11 < fenn> the exact parameters for a given program may depend on each unique chip, yes
14:11 < fenn> but that's more of a side detail than a desirable property
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14:20 < fenn> adrian thompson https://www.damninteresting.com/on-the-origin-of-circuits/
14:21 < chris_99> oh neat
14:26 < fenn> the actual paper http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.50.9691&rep=rep1&type=pdf
14:27 < fenn> unfortunately reconfigurable FPGAs never made it out into the real world
14:27 < chris_99> cool, i've seen the antenna thing they talk about, but i don't think i've ever seen the fpga thing, very nifty!
14:27 < fenn> because companies like xilinx and altera are clueless
14:27 < fenn> (and own all the relevant patents)
14:28 < chris_99> that says it waas done on a xilinx fpga though?
14:28 < fenn> the chip was made specifically for academic research into reconfigurable computing
14:28 < chris_99> ahh
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14:42 < fenn> "more recently, [Carver] Mead's philosophy for analogue neural VLSI has been to exploit the behaviours that semiconductor structures naturally exhibit, rather than choosing a set of functions and then trying to implement them in hardware."  (this was in 1996)
14:43 < fenn> https://books.google.com/books/about/Analog_VLSI_and_Neural_Systems.html?id=-j8PAQAAMAAJ
14:43 < fenn> oh it's not readable
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15:09 < fenn> here's a related "book" more like a collection of articles inspired by the other book of similar name: http://fennetic.net/irc/Christopher%20R.%20Carroll%20Carver%20Mead%20Mohammed%20Ismail%20Analog%20VLSI%20Implementation%20of%20Neural%20Systems.pdf
15:10 < fenn> i would eventually like to find a copy (preferably digital) of "Analog VLSI and Neural Systems"
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16:35 < kanzure> hrm.
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18:30 < juri_> nmz787_: ImplicitCAD has halfway moved to my kallithea instance.
18:30 < juri_> you want that one.
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20:25 < nmz787_> juri_: link? maybe update the website to point to it too?
20:26 < nmz787_> oh, I guess I found it via something about an optical table robot: http://kalli1.faikvm.com/ImplicitCAD/Stable
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20:33 < juri_> yep. that's me. ;)
20:59 < kanzure> eriq93201941
21:03 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12826886
21:03 < yoleaux> Doubts About the Promised Bounty of Genetically Modified Crops | Hacker News
21:06 < kanzure> "Targeted epigenetic remodeling of endogenous loci by crispr-cas9-based transcriptional activators directly converts fibroblasts to neuronal cells" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27524438
21:06 < kanzure> "Editing DNA methylation in the mammalian genome" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27662091
21:06 < kanzure> "High-resolution interrogation of functional elements in the noncoding genome" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27708104
21:07 < kanzure> ok that's just DNMT3A/TET1 for methylation in the crispr system
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23:49 < fenn> this sounds pretty reasonable: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurogrid
23:49 < fenn> "The Neurogrid board contains sixteen Neurocores, each of which has 256 x 256 silicon neurons in an 11.9 mm x 13.9 mm chip. An off-chip RAM and an on-chip RAM (in each Neurocore) softwire horizontal and vertical cortical connections, respectively. With 61 graded and 18 binary programmable parameters, common to all of its silicon neurons, a Neurocore can model a variety of spiking and
23:49 < fenn> interaction patterns. ... The entire board consumes less than two watts of electrical energy.
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23:50 < fenn> It uses analog computation to emulate ion channel activity, and digital communication to softwire structured connectivity patterns. Neurogrid simulates one million neurons[1] and six billion synapses in real time."
--- Log closed Sun Oct 30 00:00:35 2016