--- Log opened Tue Nov 22 00:00:17 2016
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04:47 < kanzure> you moved it forward to tomorrow?
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06:41 < JayDugger> Hm..
06:48 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=03a11da2 Bryan Bishop: some weird problems in bitcoinland >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/bitcoin/somewhat-open-problems-draft/
06:52 < pasky>  NET::ERR_CERT_DATE_INVALID /o\
06:53 < pasky> letsencrypt?
06:53 < pasky> oh just by 5 days
06:53 < pasky> (also who uses .mdwn instead of .md as file extension?)
06:55 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=d17d2a82 Bryan Bishop: oops one more >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/bitcoin/somewhat-open-problems-draft/
06:55 < kanzure> pasky: ikiwiki is from perl land, so... perl people.
06:55 < kanzure> jrayhawk: cert problems
06:56 < kanzure> pasky: in the mean time, use http://diyhpl.us/wiki/bitcoin/somewhat-open-problems-draft/
07:03 < pasky> ta
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08:42 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=7c2c3ba3 Bryan Bishop: one more about transactions + PoW >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/bitcoin/somewhat-open-problems-draft/
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09:26 < kanzure> ""There are plenty of black hat scenarios with CRISPR, from potential eco-terrorism to inserting it into a virus," Ellen Jorgensen said. "The devil is always in the delivery. CRISPR is no different. It has to penetrate the cell and get inside. It's always the hardest part of any gene delivery system.""
09:26 < kanzure> "In its report, the Presidents Council of Advisers on Science and Technology recommended that Congress create a $2 billion emergency preparedness fund for to be able to respond to any scenario of a biological weapon by boosting the ability to do research and produce vaccines more quickly."
09:26 < kanzure> "I don't think this problem is soluble by some way damning technologies or restricting publications."
09:27 < kanzure> "On November 15, 2016, PCAST released a letter report to the President on Action Needed to Protect against Biological Attack"
09:27 < kanzure> https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/microsites/ostp/PCAST/pcast_biodefense_letter_report_final.pdf
09:29 < cluckj> ooo neat
09:30 < kanzure> further attempts by the government to supress vulnerable blackhats
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09:59 < cluckj> I guess my new life goal is to make it onto the list of dangerous professors
09:59 < kanzure> you could be the cool bmx biking professor of risk or something
10:00 < andytoshi> kanzure: the talk was last night. there will be a recording sometime today
10:00 < kanzure> "statistically, it's safer to go bmx biking in ISIS controlled territory, compared to <something hilarious>"
10:00 < andytoshi> there is some processing or something
10:00 < cluckj> haha
10:01 < kanzure> andytoshi: aka "codec encoding time just hasn't been the same since greg stopped looking so closely"
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10:05 < kanzure> 09:49 <+xentrac> So, in other news
10:05 < kanzure> 09:49 <+xentrac> I think it's probably best to focus on macroscopic von Neumann replicators for now
10:05 < kanzure> 09:51 <+xentrac> I think macroscopic von Neumann replicators from raw materials with short self-replication time -- measured in hours to weeks rather than years -- are the crucial stepping stone to escape the industrial age death spiral
10:05 < kanzure> 09:51 <+xentrac> Robotics and materials processing are sophisticated enough to achieve this now
10:05 < kanzure> although... biology, yo
10:07 < kanzure> yea ok he is ignoring biology apparently. sigh.
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10:49 < kanzure> 10:48 <+xentrac> quartz, corundum, and lime
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12:15 < kanzure> 32-bit risc-v microcontroller (open-v) crowdfunding campaign thing https://www.crowdsupply.com/onchip/open-v
12:15 < kanzure> https://github.com/onchipuis
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12:18 < kanzure> xkcd has proposed a cardboard box naming scheme for moves and organizing http://xkcd.com/1762/
12:33 < kanzure> i think we could rig a bacteria to make proteins for photofilm and microfinche, and then do selection on that, based on information quality preserved in sheets of protein film.   or er, i guess it might be an involved manufacturing process to put the proteins into a film in the first place, which would probably blow up the total iteration time :(. (this is different from the "ecoli camera" min...
12:33 < kanzure> ...d you)
12:34 < kanzure> instead of the halide crystals, i mean.
13:10 < kanzure> music https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyUrXe4q_-c&
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14:29 < kanzure> "It would be pretty fucking awesome if you could feed bacteria a mix of 1e5 100mers and have them build a megabase genome correctly for you, and I'm sure it's possible"
14:29 < kanzure> "One potential path: bulk selection based on total exogenous DNA content (via intensity-based FACS so you can screen/sort billions a day with OTS hardware) and deselection based on presence of unligated 100mers"
14:30 < kanzure> "yeah this would work--though I suspect it could require continuous selection, growth, deselection for months--also like Bryan wrote, good to toss in a kitchen sink of everything potentially related to ligation"
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15:51 < kanzure> http://gizmodo.com/young-blood-may-not-reverse-aging-after-all-1789260013
15:51 < kanzure> .title http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms13363
15:51 < yoleaux> A single heterochronic blood exchange reveals rapid inhibition of multiple tissues by old blood : Nature Communications
15:52 < kanzure> "Investigating muscle, liver and brain hippocampus, in the presence or absence of muscle injury, we find that, in many cases, the inhibitory effects of old blood are more pronounced than the benefits of young, and that peripheral tissue injury compounds the negative effects"
15:55 < Malvolio> so should they bring back bloodletting?
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16:04 < cluckj> no
16:04 < cluckj> blood transfer for the old, from the young
16:20 < streety> I think there is a theory that losing a little extra iron might be a good thing.
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19:30 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc
19:30 < yoleaux> Carl Sagan - 'A Glorious Dawn' ft Stephen Hawking (Symphony of Science) - YouTube
19:36 < kanzure> 19:34 <+xentrac> I should ask Nick Szabo if anyone has succeeded at his Lego self-replicator challenge
19:36 < kanzure> 19:35 <+xentrac> Freitas's 1980 design (I think, I haven't finished readingit) suggested using laser fabrication and vapor deposition for electronic control
19:44 < kanzure> https://www.mail-archive.com/kragen-tol@canonical.org/msg00052.html
19:45 < kanzure> https://www.mail-archive.com/kragen-tol@canonical.org/msg00249.html
20:02 < docl> Anyone know why Paul Birch's orbital ring designs are so freaking big? For bootstrap purposes, I'd think going as small as possible would be best.
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20:04 < docl> His paper starts off talking about a 180 million ton monster, then thinks better of that and gives us a 180 thousand ton version... I'm not sure why he didn't propose 180 ton.
20:05 < kanzure> docl, did you see my above ideas regarding moving and rearranging icebergs
20:05 < docl> (Section 3.1-3.4 http://www.orionsarm.com/fm_store/OrbitalRings-II.pdf)
20:06 < docl> kanzure: no, give me a moment and I'll read
20:06 < kanzure> from yesterday, http://gnusha.org/logs/2016-11-21.log
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20:13 < docl> interesting thought. land bridges, maybe artificial countries? could you insulate a whole iceberg and get it to stay frozen?
20:14 < docl> if you can build a tall enough mountain, you can get unlimited free snow/ice anywhere in the world.
20:14 < kanzure> nah, they will definitely melt -- but they last a year+
20:14 < docl> what if you coated them in something cheap and insulating though?
20:15 < kanzure> i have no idea, what sort of impact do you think you could get with an insulator ?
20:16 < docl> longer lasting icebergs? they are melting due to exposed surface to the warmer water, after all
20:17 < kanzure> yeah but how much longer lasting
20:17 < kanzure> approximately
20:18 < kanzure> 20%? i guess that could be up to 20% of a year. so that would be nice.
20:19 < kanzure> i wonder if you could anchor an iceberg below, and shrink the cables on the anchors during the day. during the night, slowly release the iceberg back to the surface.
20:19 < docl> probably decades longer would be my guess, since we're going from direct contact to contact through an insulator. but I'm not sure how easily such a layer could stick to a melting iceberg
20:20 < kanzure> and then you can keep it mostly under water anyway
20:20 < kanzure> get a good surface area of a square ~mile or something... yep.
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20:22 < kanzure> 20:21 <+Darius> oh, drexler's lightsails were a fave example of going straight for orders-of-magnitude improvement. i'd like to imagine they're beng ignored for sound reasons
20:23 < docl> the bigger the iceberg the less surface area per unit volume, so really big ones should last a lot longer. 1000x the volume should last about 10x as long all else equal
20:24 < Darius> kanzure: i think i saw someone say something like that his control arrangement was unstable. i don't remember. i was thinking mainly about the manufacture-on-site aspect.
20:25 < kanzure> docl: sure. there are weather services that monitor huge icebergs, tracking them for years and even giving them names https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_recorded_icebergs_by_area
20:32 < kanzure> not very flat though https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC3VTgIPoGU
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20:44 < docl> another complaint I have about PB's orbital ring papers is that he applies a linear approach to get 1000x bootstrapping in 1 year
20:45 < docl> in reality, you could go way faster. each milliyear (8 hour period) is worth 1 doubling. so you get to 1024x in 80 hours and run out of planet to bootstrap with in well under a year..
20:47 < fenn> how is any of this sensible compared to rotating momentum exchange tethers?
20:48 < fenn> the stationary tethers are just deadweight
20:48 < fenn> and it has to go all the way around the planet
20:50 < docl> I don't think it has to be a single contiguous structure around the planet. more like a swarm of discrete particles. so it's basically the same thing as a satellite constellation, just more densely packed.
20:50 < kanzure> docl: he means http://tethers.com/MXTethers2.html
20:52 < fenn> page 10 "in the event of ring rupture the skyhook will fall off the end"
20:52 < fenn> i agree it could probably be built more like a space fountain, but that's a space fountain not a ring...
20:53 < docl> if it's ring shaped, isn't it?
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20:57 < fenn> i don't quite get how you're supposed to go from the top of the skyhook to orbit
21:00 < fenn> the side of the football shaped ring doesn't match any stable orbit
21:00 < docl> I think the process involves an electromagnetic sled of sorts. you'd use magnetic friction (induction + resistance) to match velocity to the ballast passing below you.
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21:01 < docl> the football is supposed to be the sides of two ellipses shoved together. the points are where the two elevators act as deflectors.
21:02 < docl> the shape looks more like an icosagon with rounded sides if you have 20 elevators
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21:06 < docl> the more mass there is in the ring relative to the elevator's weight/drag, the more circular it looks. the football seems exaggerated for effect. his examples use something like 100:1 ratios, I think. you can also go closer to straight edged polygon shapes if the speed is higher relative to circular orbital velocity, although that wouldn't work well without a fair number of points.
21:07 < fenn> would it make more sense to have a bunch of solar panels flying around instead of a ring?
21:10 < fenn> of course then you have to refuel them
21:10 < fenn> unless this emdrive thing checks out
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21:11 < fenn> it seems unlikely that humanity will get its shit together enough to build such a massive up-front-investment system as this
21:12 < docl> depends on the actual minimum scale. if it's 180 thousand tons like he says, then yeah.
21:12 < fenn> for a variety of reasons i prefer the electrodynamic momentum exchange tethers
21:13 < docl> one idea I had is to make a track, about 100 km long, of orbital mass that you can use a similar magnetic sled concept to match speeds with. EDTs distributed along its length would be useful to stablize it and replenish its lost velocity.
21:14 < docl> one problem is it doesn't solve the altitude issue, just orbital burn. to actually use it you'd need sounding rockets, space planes, or something along those lines
21:15 < fenn> if you haven't read the tether papers yet, here's corny animation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPx1Nq80jm8
21:15 < fenn> just the music is corny
21:15 < docl> thanks
21:16 < fenn> skip to 3 minutes
21:16 < fenn> the payload can be suborbital and it can be somewhat in the atmosphere
21:17 < fenn> or for less annoying planets you can just pick it up off the planet surface
21:20 < fenn> energy is stored in the eccentricity of the tether's orbit
21:21 < fenn> the rotation is purely for offsetting the tether tip's relative velocity to the payload
21:22 < docl> one thing I like about an ORS is the geographic stability of the individual elevators. having one in your town is a bit like having an airport. mx-tethers are sort of variable in terms of where they affect economically (although you could plan specifically to say these specific places are the special pick up points, if you wanted to)
21:22 < fenn> the touchdown point doesn't change
21:23 < fenn> well, you have to put energy in to change it
21:26 < docl> I wonder what the minimum realistic mass of an elevator cable from earth surface to LEO altitude would be.
21:27 < fenn> paul birch says 250kg ??
21:27 < docl> really? that's tiny compared to what I was thinking
21:28 < fenn> oh maybe it's 3 Mg
21:28 < fenn> aka 3 tonne
21:31 < docl> I figure 100x the cable mass is likely to be the minimum ring mass (although that could be an overestimate)
21:32 < docl> so the ISS (400 tons) might actually mass more than a minimal sized ORS that's been optimized to hell.
21:36 < fenn> ISS was pretty expensive
21:37 < fenn> a minimum tether system can be launched on one rocket
21:37 < fenn> and it can bootstrap
21:37 < fenn> of course i'd rather there be no such thing as a minimum
21:42 < docl> is there any upper limit on how much mass you can boost with rotating tethers?
21:45 < fenn> presumably things get complicated when you start approaching a fraction of the planetary mass, but otherwise no
21:46 < fenn> the main limitations are orbital velocity and the specific strength of materials required to balance out that velocity
21:47 < fenn> you can cheat a bit by boosting the payload to supersonic speed
21:47 < fenn> also there are two-stage tethers but i have a hard time imagining that
21:47 < fenn> a rotating tether on the end of a rotating tether
21:47 < docl> hmm. not sure this makes a practical difference, but I'm thinking you would probably utilize more cable mass per unit mass boosted per second, since the cable mass spends the bulk of its orbital period away from the earth's surface.
21:48 < fenn> you'd balance out shipments of cable mass and solar panel mass
21:48 < fenn> er, pick your poison
21:49 < fenn> cable mass scales linearly with payload mass
21:49 < fenn> solar panel mass scales linearly with launch rate
21:50 < fenn> an orbit is like 20 minutes and it would take at least a few days to re-boost
21:50 < docl> with the orbital ring, your ballistic mass can be mostly slag (at the large scale), which can be really cheap to make. cable is probably going to be more expensive. so bootstrapping may be slower.
21:51 < fenn> i dont care about large scale mega-engineering really
21:52 < fenn> that stuff will be determined by politics
21:52 < fenn> i just want a launch system
21:53 < fenn> you can add mass to tethers if you just want more kinetic energy storage
21:53 < fenn> like the counterweight in a beanstalk
21:54 < docl> true. but the tether spends a big chunk of its time not ferrying stuff to orbit, right?
21:54 < fenn> right
21:54 < docl> can mx-tethers realistically grab stuff from the surface? or is a space plane or something like that needed?
21:54 < fenn> on earth not really any time soon
21:55 < fenn> something like spaceshiptwo would be fine though
21:55 < fenn> the big problem is punching down through the atmosphere at mach 10 or so
21:55 < fenn> without vaporizing the cable
21:56 < Malvolio> (see also #space)
21:57 < docl> so that is a possible advantage of an orbital ring system based elevator
22:00 < docl> would mx-tether work with a high altitude balloon platform?
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22:02 < fenn> i don't know
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22:05 < fenn> do the orbital ring skyhooks start out in orbit?
22:11 < docl> I think so, at least that's how I always pictured it. you'd have the skyhook slow itself down by mass-driving the ballast to go a little faster.
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23:44 < fenn> dani eder came up with "the '3 stage tether', where a tower sticks up to the top of the atmosphere and has a rotating tether on top, with rocket attached to the tip.  The rocket is slowly brung up to speed, then released, to fly up and rendezvous with the two stage tether described before."
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23:47 < fenn> maybe the rocket doesn't even need propulsion
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--- Log closed Wed Nov 23 00:00:18 2016