--- Log opened Sat Dec 10 00:00:34 2016 00:23 -!- pompolic [~A@unaffiliated/pompolic] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:23 -!- pompolic [~A@unaffiliated/pompolic] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:46 -!- Gurkenglas [~Gurkengla@dslb-178-008-179-157.178.008.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:05 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: Aurelius 01:07 -!- wrldpc1 [~ben@hccd37dc7aa.bai.ne.jp] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:11 -!- Netsplit over, joins: Aurelius 01:15 -!- juri_ [~juri@192.94.73.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:32 -!- juri_ [~juri@192.94.73.193] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:32 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: Aurelius 01:33 -!- Netsplit over, joins: Aurelius 01:43 -!- wrldpc1 [~ben@hccd37dc7aa.bai.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: wrldpc1] 01:50 -!- wrldpc1 [~ben@hccd37dc7aa.bai.ne.jp] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:51 -!- wrldpc1 [~ben@hccd37dc7aa.bai.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 02:00 -!- Gurkenglas [~Gurkengla@dslb-178-008-179-157.178.008.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:10 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@unaffiliated/ebowden] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:10 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-101-180-233-178.lnse3.cha.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:10 -!- Guest50518 [~abe@68.175.143.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:10 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-101-180-233-178.lnse3.cha.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Changing host] 02:10 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@unaffiliated/ebowden] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:22 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:32 < JayDugger> Thank you for the SDR recommendations. 02:35 < chris_99> Are you getting an SDR? if so, which one out of interest 02:40 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@unaffiliated/ebowden] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:40 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@2001:8003:103c:ee00:7009:95f8:fffc:429b] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:40 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@2001:8003:103c:ee00:7009:95f8:fffc:429b] has quit [Changing host] 02:40 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@unaffiliated/ebowden] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:50 < JayDugger> No, I'm not. It sits on my someday-perhaps list. 02:51 < chris_99> ah heh, i was looking at the $200 HackRfs from aliexpress, but that's still too dear for me atm 03:02 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@unaffiliated/ebowden] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:03 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@2001:8003:103c:ee00:7009:95f8:fffc:429b] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:03 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@2001:8003:103c:ee00:7009:95f8:fffc:429b] has quit [Changing host] 03:03 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@unaffiliated/ebowden] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:19 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-204-67-33.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:20 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-23-20-107-223.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:34 -!- M4l3z [~M4l3z@LFbn-1-4220-37.w92-169.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:42 -!- M4l3z [~M4l3z@LFbn-1-4220-37.w92-169.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:09 -!- TinKode [~TinKode@unaffiliated/tinkode] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:28 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:34 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:41 -!- TinKode [~TinKode@unaffiliated/tinkode] has quit [Quit: Practicing escapism.] 04:51 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: sivoais, thundara_ 04:52 -!- Netsplit over, joins: sivoais, thundara_ 05:26 -!- Gurkenglas [~Gurkengla@dslb-178-008-224-044.178.008.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:52 -!- TinKode [~TinKode@unaffiliated/tinkode] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:06 -!- helleshin [~talinck@66-161-138-110.ubr1.dyn.lebanon-oh.fuse.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:47 -!- Burninate [~Burn@pool-108-56-208-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:49 -!- Burnin8 [~Burn@pool-108-56-208-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:57 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@unaffiliated/ebowden] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:57 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-101-180-233-178.lnse3.cha.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:57 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-101-180-233-178.lnse3.cha.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Changing host] 06:57 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@unaffiliated/ebowden] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:59 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@unaffiliated/ebowden] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:07 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/eboyden3/status/806569889200799751 07:07 < yoleaux> Announcing Cognito Therapeutics: a startup aimed at curing Alzheimer's via a noninvasive device. http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20161207006042/en/Cognito-Therapeutics-Launched-Exclusive-License-Promising-Alzheimer%E2%80%99s (@eboyden3) 07:07 < kanzure> "The scientific discoveries are featured in the December 8th issue of Nature. Working with mouse models of Alzheimer's disease, the team of scientists showed that by using a unique and totally non-invasive method of stimulation, they were able to restore gamma oscillation in the brains of the mice, which in turn activated the microglia cells to remove beta amyloid plaques in the brains. These ... 07:08 < kanzure> ...plaques are characteristic of the brains of Alzheimer's disease patients, which are also deficient in gamma oscillation." 07:08 < kanzure> "Tsai and Boyden co-founded Cognito Therapeutics to translate their findings into a treatment for Alzheimer's patients. The company has filed an extensive portfolio of patents covering the applications of this novel approach to treating a variety of neurological disorders." 07:10 < kanzure> ".. she set out to understand the genetic causes of a rare condition called spinocerebellar ataxia. She ran tests on families affected by the disorder and found that a mutation in a gene called SCA1 was the sole cause of the disease" 07:20 -!- darsie [~darsie@84-113-55-42.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:27 -!- M4l3z [~M4l3z@LFbn-1-4220-37.w92-169.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:03 < kanzure> .wik galantamine total synthesis 08:03 < yoleaux> "Galanthamine total synthesis concerns the total synthesis of galanthamine, a drug used for the treatment of mild to moderate Alzheimer's disease." -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galantamine_total_synthesis 08:09 < jcorgan> that is a lot of work 08:28 < kanzure> jcorgan: and what about this one http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/DNA/oligonucleotide-synthesis-by-phosphoramidite-method-cycle-diagram.png 08:30 -!- augur [~augur@2602:304:cdac:e260:c4c5:353:353a:d586] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:34 -!- pompolic [~A@unaffiliated/pompolic] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:36 -!- pompolic [~A@unaffiliated/pompolic] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:42 < jcorgan> you biochem guys are nuts. there's a reason nature invented enzymes :-) 08:46 < kanzure> artificial peptide synthesis is also annoying 08:46 < JayDugger> Waitaminute... 08:47 < JayDugger> Have I got that right? From stimulation restoring gamma oscillation to cellular activation to plaque-busting? 08:47 < JayDugger> Is that from a press release? 08:47 < jcorgan> a science writer article reading a press release 08:47 < kanzure> it's ed boyden doing a company 08:50 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@2001:8003:103c:ee00:5819:6848:1b54:29d6] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:50 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@2001:8003:103c:ee00:5819:6848:1b54:29d6] has quit [Changing host] 08:50 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@unaffiliated/ebowden] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:52 -!- Gurkenglas [~Gurkengla@dslb-178-008-224-044.178.008.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:52 < JayDugger> Okay...I guess arguing from authority makes more sense than arguing that effect precedes correlation. I admit I know too little neuroscience to certainly critique gamma oscillation leading to plaque-busting. 08:55 < jcorgan> i think they said restoring the oscillation affected glial cell operation, and those glial cells started clearing plaque proteins again 08:56 < jcorgan> ah yes, it's right in the quote from kanzure 08:57 < JayDugger> Yeah, I saw that. I must be--no--am too ignorant to understand how that's even plausible as a mechanism. 08:58 < jcorgan> just guessing, but perhaps the lack of action potentials crossing through adjacent axons causes the glial cells to go dormant 08:58 -!- kelu124 [~androirc@mon75-h10-89-81-14-210.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:59 < kanzure> kelu124: welcome back 09:00 < kanzure> JayDugger: this on, 09:00 < kanzure> *one, 09:00 < jcorgan> so reversing that would restore their function, and one of those functions is indeed the maintainance of the extracellular environment of the neurons under their care 09:00 < kanzure> "Gamma frequency entrainment attenuates amyloid load and modifies microglia" http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v540/n7632/full/nature20587.html 09:00 < kanzure> "Changes in gamma oscillations (20-50 Hz) have been observed in several neurological disorders. However, the relationship between gamma oscillations and cellular pathologies is unclear. Here we show reduced, behaviourally driven gamma oscillations before the onset of plaque formation or cognitive decline in a mouse model of Alzheimer's disease. Optogenetically driving fast-spiking parval... 09:00 < kanzure> ...bumin-positive (FS-PV)-interneurons at gamma (40 Hz), but not other frequencies, reduces levels of amyloid-? (A?)1-40 and A? 1-42 isoforms. Gene expression profiling revealed induction of genes associated with morphological transformation of microglia, and histological analysis confirmed increased microglia co-localization with A?. Subsequently, we designed a non-invasive 40 Hz lig... 09:00 < kanzure> ...ht-flickering regime that reduced A?1-40 and A?1-42 levels in the visual cortex of pre-depositing mice and mitigated plaque load in aged, depositing mice. Our findings uncover a previously unappreciated function of gamma rhythms in recruiting both neuronal and glial responses to attenuate Alzheimer's-disease-associated pathology." 09:00 < JayDugger> Better guess than I could make, really--nature paper--I will be damned. 09:01 < JayDugger> That's really surprising. 09:01 < JayDugger> I wonder if that can get repeated by non-optogenetic means. 09:01 < JayDugger> s/That's really surprising./That surprises me very much./ 09:02 < kanzure> or we can just ask boyden to do human gene therapy to deliver optogenetics 09:02 < kanzure> he's an okay person, i'm sure he will say yes 09:02 < kanzure> ... probably. 09:04 -!- urchin__ [~urchin@89.17.8.181] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:06 < JayDugger> If he and the other people at C.T. have a novel approach to Alzheimer's therapies and cure, ask away! 09:06 < JayDugger> Unless it would prove a distraction from their work. 09:06 < kanzure> nah i just want the gene therapy and optogenetics..... 09:07 -!- urchin_ [~urchin@89.17.14.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:07 -!- abetusk [~abe@68.175.143.22] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:08 -!- abetusk is now known as Guest64859 09:08 < JayDugger> Alzheimer's the only geriatric disease my family members haven't yet hit. I'd like a good cure or other treatment before I outlive the other risks: cancer, heart disease, diabetes, stroke, and Parkinson's. 09:09 < JayDugger> But that might be effectively saying, "No, I don't care about computing applications, but a radio in my pocket makes all the reason I want a transistor to work." 09:10 < JayDugger> Thank you for both links, kanzure, and than you for the speculation, jcorgan. 09:10 < jcorgan> i'm happy that i can't find a single instance of dementia of any kind, let alone Alzheimer's, in my family history, or Parkinson's for that matter. Lots of cancer and heart disease though :( 09:11 < kanzure> what were you doing 17 days ago? if you can't remember, then that's dementia as far as i'm concerned. 09:12 < jcorgan> let me check my google calendar :) 09:12 < JayDugger> 17 days ago? I didn't memorize anything for that date, and nothing special otherwise stands out. 09:13 < JayDugger> And checking org-agenda reveals nothing of public interest. 09:15 < cluckj> maybe they died of heart disease and cancer before dementia set in :o 09:16 -!- augur [~augur@2602:304:cdac:e260:c4c5:353:353a:d586] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:16 < jcorgan> yeah, was just thinking that 09:18 < JayDugger> Could prove true, but it's a little late for autopsies now. 09:20 < jcorgan> but, sometimes i wonder. in the aircraft industry, they've gotten so good at preventing crashes that when they do happen, it's usually some weird combination of things nobody ever thought would happen at the same time. maybe we've gotten so good and preventing/curing more routine causes of death that cancer and dementia are what's left and seem out of proportion. 09:20 < cluckj> yes, sort of 09:22 -!- Guest64859 is now known as abetusk 09:22 < cluckj> scientization of death has made "he ded" a lot more specific in the last hundred or so years 09:23 < cluckj> plus large-scale data collection by public health agencies (and the mere existence of "public health" too) 09:25 < jcorgan> what i mean is, if we've prevented or greatly reduced deaths by so many other diseases, the proportion of deaths by the "big killers" would naturally go up in proportion 09:25 < kanzure> you mean "new big killers take their place" 09:26 < jcorgan> yeah, something like that 09:26 < jcorgan> saturday morning armchair speculation 09:26 -!- urchin_ [~urchin@89.17.22.80] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:26 < kanzure> well, you're in the right place at least 09:27 < cluckj> yeah 09:28 < jcorgan> ok, time for another hot water alkaloid extraction for pharmacological benefit 09:29 -!- urchin__ [~urchin@89.17.8.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 09:34 < cluckj> maybe switch to decaf :P 09:42 < jcorgan> yeah, i might have coffee too 09:44 < kanzure> "Intellectual property rights and innovation: Evidence from the human genome." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24639594 09:50 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@unaffiliated/ebowden] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:01 -!- urchin__ [~urchin@89.17.6.218] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:01 -!- yashgaroth [~yashgarot@2602:306:35fa:d500:f5e0:f867:a11d:8d52] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:05 -!- urchin_ [~urchin@89.17.22.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:22 -!- M4l3z [~M4l3z@LFbn-1-4220-37.w92-169.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:22 -!- augur [~augur@2602:304:cdac:e260:44a8:77dd:f85e:c67c] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:24 < kanzure> some more random crap about IQ or something https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13145853 10:31 < chris_99> heh 10:33 -!- augur [~augur@2602:304:cdac:e260:44a8:77dd:f85e:c67c] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:34 < chris_99> just looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_IQ_society i'm curious what they actually do in those things 10:35 < kanzure> mensa is just a scrabble club-- total waste of time 10:37 < chris_99> heh 10:38 < jcorgan> IQ, meh. I don't think it's a good measure of anything at all, I'm not even sure it has a strong correlation with anything identifiable. 10:39 < kanzure> yes it's not a good use of time 10:43 < kanzure> .title http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/09/sports/russia-doping-mclaren-report.html 10:43 < yoleaux> kanzure: Sorry, that doesn't appear to be an HTML page. 10:43 < kanzure> https://www.ipevidencedisclosurepackage.net/ 10:43 < kanzure> "For seven months, a dedicated team has been investigating the allegations that Russian athletes have benefited from a systematic, centralized and institutionalized control manipulation and cover up of the doping control processes used in Russia." 10:43 < jcorgan> some of the comments in that HN article are pretty insightful though 10:46 < kanzure> "In an interview with NRK, WADA's director general Olivier Niggli said that "Russia is threatening us and our informers", mentioning daily hacking attempts and bugging of houses. He said that the agency had "a pretty good suspicion" that the hackers were Russian and that Western governments were already familiar with them.[71]" 10:48 < kanzure> .wik doping in russia 10:48 < yoleaux> "Doping in Russian sports is a significant issue. Russia has had the most (31) Olympic medals stripped for doping violations - nearly triple the number of the second country. From 2011 to 2015, more than a thousand Russian competitors in various sports, including summer, winter, and Paralympic sports, benefited from a cover-up." -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_in_Russia 10:52 -!- Fausta [4cda14cc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.218.20.204] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:53 * Fausta works for the Federal Death Administration 10:53 < kanzure> not for long, trump is apparently putting an immortalist in charge 10:54 < cluckj> lol 10:54 < kanzure> something about a favor to peter thiel 10:54 < Fausta> an immortalist? 10:54 * Fausta is just a contractor postdoc 10:55 < kanzure> you know, the anti-death people 10:55 < kanzure> ah i see 10:55 < Fausta> ah I see what you mean 10:55 < Fausta> someone who is into the sort of thing in this channel tbh 10:55 < kanzure> Fausta: cluckj was recently doing some presentations about fda and the open pancreas hardware people 10:56 < cluckj> not in public 10:56 < kanzure> that's because you're lame 10:57 < cluckj> I don't have the project together enough for public presentation 10:57 < kanzure> hehe 10:57 < cluckj> but yes at it's core it's because I'm lame 10:57 < kanzure> at least you know the problem! 10:57 < cluckj> ya 10:57 < Fausta> is this basically a program that will determine when to dispense insulin 10:57 < Fausta> in response to blood glucose levels 10:57 < kanzure> Fausta: we focus on stuff like this in here, http://diyhpl.us/wiki/genetic-modifications/ 10:57 < kanzure> Fausta: it's hardware to do insulin injection stuff 10:58 < kanzure> cheap off-the-shelf stuff 10:58 < cluckj> yes, hybrid closed loop stuff, using OSS software and COTS equipment 10:58 < cluckj> things that are in the commercial pipeline for 2019-2020 10:58 < cluckj> what is your research on? 11:00 < Fausta> basically doing pbpk, long story and can't be too "identifying" 11:00 < Fausta> they give us a big talk about not being open about our fda stuff online 11:00 < kanzure> okay, sounds like ligand stuff and reaction yields 11:00 < Fausta> I'll prob say anyway once I know you better 11:00 < Fausta> it is math modelig work 11:01 < Fausta> I don't deal with lab work 11:01 < Fausta> kanzure: editing the germ line would not help you though 11:01 < Fausta> aren't you into CRISPR etc 11:01 < kanzure> crispr is nice, sure, 11:01 < cluckj> lol 11:01 < kanzure> there are many gene editing techniques available http://diyhpl.us/wiki/gene-editing/ 11:01 < cluckj> I'm ethically bound to not talk about stuff, but this channel is publicly logged 11:02 < cluckj> so if you are worried about privacy stuff, don't say it in here :) 11:02 < Fausta> lol 11:02 < kanzure> yes we have backlogs all the way back to 2008 http://gnusha.org/logs/ 11:02 < Fausta> well most important thing imo is reversible suspended animation 11:03 < Fausta> I have an Alcor contract but I am very skepticla that they will ever be able to revive the current popsicles 11:03 < cluckj> cool 11:03 < Fausta> ha ha 11:03 < cluckj> no pun intended 11:03 < kanzure> i mentioned an idea in here for how to do reversible cryopreservation 11:03 < kanzure> essentially, the summary is that we should be doing selective breeding of animal populations based on post-resuscitation tissue survival rates 11:04 < Fausta> and then investigate what biochemical properties of their tissues enable this 11:04 < kanzure> yep, or genetics, etc. 11:04 < Fausta> again though how does this help us 11:04 < Fausta> as in me and you 11:04 < kanzure> also, randomly mutate the critters during selective breeding too, so that new traits can be invented that might assist with cryoresuscitation 11:05 < kanzure> well, you might be completely fucked to be honest 11:05 < kanzure> but maybe with gene therapy......? no promises. 11:05 < Fausta> I think gene therapy in any serious way is in the distant future 11:05 < kanzure> sounds like you might be a bigger advocate of brain scanning than cryopreservation, then 11:06 < Fausta> no 11:06 < kanzure> well, you already admit you are uncertain about recovering information from the current popsicles :) 11:06 < Fausta> my idea which I actually shared with More and de Grey is to try to figure out a way of inducing torpor that is not going down to abs zero etc 11:06 < jcorgan> i suspect whatever solution there is to resuscitation or longevity will only work if begun prenatally or at least early in life, and old farts like are just SOL. Unless the singularity arrives in the 10-15 years. 11:06 < jcorgan> *old farts like me 11:06 < Fausta> this more person is not that smart 11:07 < kanzure> Fausta: unfortunately i doubt that either of them investigated that........ they are not technologists. they don't really run labs/engineering. 11:07 < Fausta> kanzure: I was hoping they would bring this idea to the attn of the right person 11:07 < kanzure> hah 11:07 < Fausta> I mean More replied with a long reply that wasn't really getting my point 11:07 < Fausta> we had like two exchanges 11:08 < Fausta> I don't think he understands biology that well 11:08 < kanzure> probably the only cryonics person worth speaking with is mike darwin 11:08 < kanzure> more is not a biologist 11:08 < Fausta> I just don't think cryonics is the way to go 11:08 < Fausta> they need to look at lemurs that hibernate etc 11:08 < kanzure> but you also dislike brain scanning? :) 11:09 < Fausta> induce that shit artifically in humans 11:09 < kanzure> hibernation seems to require non-aging though 11:09 < Fausta> I met a guy named Peter Voss at an Alcor even who is really into brain scanning and seems to think it will preserve him 11:09 < kanzure> how long do you want the hibernation to last.... 11:09 < Fausta> and he is pretty smart but the thing is, I doubt that is you 11:09 < Fausta> kanzure: until they can cure aging 11:10 < kanzure> in comas, there is very severe body wasting 11:10 < Fausta> kanzure: yes, the issue with the hibernation is that we would prob age more slowly 11:10 < kanzure> i suppose the idea is to do very extended hibernation without body wasting? 11:10 < kanzure> is there evidence that extended hibernation in mammals does not cause body wasting? 11:10 < Fausta> kanzure: an odd thing about bears etc is that they don't have the muscle wasting 11:10 < kanzure> at all? 11:11 < yashgaroth> not really 11:11 < Fausta> I think we could investigate the biochemical properties in their tissues and see if we can pump you will this through IV while you are "Under" 11:11 < kanzure> iirc the problem isn't merely muscle wasting-- aren't there other complications 11:11 < Fausta> there are a million complications, but someone needs to investigate this 11:11 < Fausta> because it is more likely to be reversible than this vitrification business 11:12 < kanzure> hrm. 11:12 < kanzure> yashgaroth: hi2u 11:12 < Fausta> once I am done with this postdoc I am going for tenure track and this will be what I want to work on 11:12 < Fausta> modeling this stuff 11:12 < kanzure> seeking tenure is a bloodbath 11:12 < Fausta> not if you're a girl 11:12 < Fausta> in math 11:12 < yashgaroth> I do wonder if anyone's studied whether hibernating mammals generally live longer than non-hibernating 11:12 < kanzure> Fausta: ah a secret weapon, that's cool. 11:12 < Fausta> I have no shame about exploiting the system 11:13 < Fausta> yashgaroth: I have wondered that too 11:13 < yashgaroth> I mean sure the metabolic rate is lower, but it doesn't drop that much for mammals 11:13 < Fausta> no it goes down to like 10% I thought 11:14 < Fausta> Mark Roth got it down to 10% with his hydrogen sulfide experiments 11:14 < Fausta> too bad it didn't work for larger mammals 11:14 < kanzure> does the alaskan frog "hibernate" when it goes into its super slow metabolism mode? 11:14 < nmz787> sup 11:14 < Fausta> I tried to explain to More that this might imply aging at a rate of only 10% usual rate but he did not follow 11:15 < kanzure> well even if it was a 10% reduction (instead of 90%) that still might be worth investigating 11:15 < Fausta> I should have gone into finance etc so that I could finance a big research effort along these lines 11:15 < yashgaroth> scene - The year is 2044. The last unfrozen man: "I really should get around to solving cryoresurrection" 11:16 < Fausta> you don't even have to be that smart to make a lot of money, by our standards 11:16 < kanzure> making money is not about being smart 11:16 < nmz787> yashgaroth: idiocracy 2 11:16 < kanzure> Fausta: i think you should speak with mike darwin at some point 11:17 < Fausta> I've heard his name 11:19 < kanzure> do you have any references re: hibernation that i can look at more closely? 11:20 < Fausta> kanzure: the main things I am familiar with are Mark Roth's work and also this Chinese guy whose name escapes me but who was inducing torpor with AMP injections 11:20 < Fausta> I haven't really looked into animals yet 11:20 < Fausta> I desperately want to get my current projects off my plate so I can actually do something important 11:20 < Fausta> I basically do 'math biology' 11:20 < Fausta> and what I've worked on so far is of little interest to me tbh but I need to get pubs 11:21 < nmz787> Fausta: I didn't see a mention of your current projects other than you're a contractor postdoc 11:21 < kanzure> have you done molecular biology lab work before? 11:21 < nmz787> in the logs 11:21 < Fausta> nmz787: I just found this channel last week 11:21 < Fausta> kanzure: no 11:21 < kanzure> what about cell biology things. 11:21 < kanzure> just math? 11:21 < Fausta> my friend is working on aging and can prob help me out with understand things I read and don't understand 11:21 < nmz787> Fausta: do you code? 11:22 < nmz787> i mean computer programs 11:22 < Fausta> nmz787: only in matlab 11:22 < kanzure> heh 11:22 < nmz787> well maybe we can get you to read up on Octave 11:22 < kanzure> well, let me be the first to say that biology sucks 11:22 < Fausta> kanzure: I know the rudiments; another thing I want to do is study biochem in a serious way; my old boss at my first postdoc and I would just hunt and peck 11:22 < nmz787> Fausta: do you have a math degree? 11:22 < Fausta> not really happy with that approach 11:22 < Fausta> yes, phd in applied math but rather watered down imo 11:23 < nmz787> bs in? 11:23 < Fausta> enough to do what I do but not really warranting a phd imo 11:23 < Fausta> bs in physics and math 11:23 < nmz787> cool 11:23 < nmz787> seems like good prep 11:23 < kanzure> biology is really weird. everything is always broken. 11:23 < Fausta> the physics thing was way more helpful than anything else bc it straightens out your thinking 11:23 < Fausta> makes you realize what it means to understand things 11:23 < Fausta> bio is a major pain in the ass 11:24 < kanzure> ah okay. so you're aware of this. 11:24 < nmz787> there's tons of redunancy and back-channels for information flow too it seems in bio systems 11:24 < Fausta> a big problem is that there was no big daddy in the sky designing things to be clean, elegant, and easily reverse engineered 11:24 < Fausta> kanzure: oh yes, indeed, yeah it really sucks bad for people like us 11:24 < kanzure> wasn't sure if you were the spherical cow type 11:24 < Fausta> nmz787: fail safes 11:24 < nmz787> Fausta: or as you said, no big daddy 11:24 < Fausta> kanzure: yeah I was and got cured of that right soon 11:25 < nmz787> lol 11:25 < Fausta> this is why it is so hard to get beyond bio that is just stamp collecting 11:25 < nmz787> pug dogs are just wolves with some knobs adjusted ;P 11:25 < Fausta> if you really want to understand how the system works it is way worse than physics 11:26 < kanzure> i bt ther would be 400 problems with hibernation, but if you solve all 5,000 of them, it will work. 11:26 < Fausta> lol nmz787 11:26 < nmz787> Fausta: this is a reasonable description of the scene I think http://bml.bioe.uic.edu/BML/Stuff/Stuff_files/biologist%20fix%20radio.pdf 11:26 < kanzure> *bet 11:26 < Fausta> did you see that Onion article about how pugs have been recalled for that year, as it is just a completely unviable dog 11:26 < Fausta> lol kanzure 11:26 < nmz787> nah, will look it up 11:27 < Fausta> I will read this, nmz787 , thanks 11:28 * Fausta goes to take some piracetam 11:28 < Fausta> it actually does do something I think 11:28 < nmz787> Fausta: well you might already intuitively know it 11:28 < nmz787> or not 11:28 < nmz787> if you haven't hung-out/worked with enough of them 11:29 < docl_> biology is so complicated, why can't we just use physics? :P 11:29 -!- docl_ is now known as docl 11:29 < nmz787> taking classes under bio profs was probably harder than just working with them 11:29 < Fausta> are you a biologist nmz787 11:29 < nmz787> certain questions just wouldn't work with them 11:29 < kanzure> nmz787 is more of a biotech person, i would say. but he's familiar with molecular biology and lots of biology things. 11:30 < Fausta> what about you kanzure 11:30 < Fausta> prob this place is a lot of IT people 11:30 < nmz787> i liked programming as a kid, did environmental ecology internship before college, BS in biotech and minor in bioinformatics.... but I am professionally a software engineer :P 11:31 < nmz787> I'd think we have few IT ppl here 11:31 < kanzure> i think i qualify as finance, these days... probably software, though. 11:31 < Fausta> idk I am turned off by Kurzweil and his crack smoking, it gives the field a bad name 11:31 < kanzure> "kurzweil is a pessimist" 11:31 < Fausta> hibernation, aging even are reasonable 11:32 < jcorgan> math => chemistry/physics => nuclear engineering => chernobyl => computer science => networking/crypto => DSP => software radio 11:32 < Fausta> but I heard he thinks his info-theoretically dead father is gonna get resurrected 11:32 < kanzure> Fausta: here, have some stuff to read http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/DNA/ 11:32 < nmz787> if crack was found to be a required precursor to hibernation/cryostasis... what would you be saying then? 11:32 < nmz787> ;) 11:32 < kanzure> "load me up", probably 11:32 * Fausta reaches for the pipe 11:33 < nmz787> oops 11:33 < Fausta> not until I'm done with the radio paper kanzure, too much on my plate 11:33 < Fausta> this is a better channel than politics 11:34 < docl> they use hypothermia for surgery and to prevent stroke damage, but humans can't sustain that state for long 11:34 < docl> maybe with the right gene tweaks, we could? 11:34 < kanzure> politics are off-topic and i will ban every single one of you fuckers 11:35 < Fausta> docl: yes, I am wondering what the limit is and why 11:35 < Fausta> Hasan Alam was doing work on this and I think they got permission to do trials in Pittsburgh on gunshot victims who can't give consent 11:35 < Fausta> draining your blood, putting in antifreeze basically, and stitching up the wounds; experiments with pigs were successful 11:36 < Fausta> this is basically my main interest bc they are not gonna cure aging in time to save me, I am 40 11:36 < Fausta> and even if they did, you can come down with some other wretched illness 11:37 < jcorgan> Fausta: i'm older than that, and can only hope for an early singularity at this point 11:37 < Fausta> this is the most important thing we need bc it would hit "pause" on any possible cause of imminent death, be it aging or something else 11:38 < Fausta> I will live 50 more years judging from the women in my family; I am not a transexual etc, I know they are common on irc 11:38 < Fausta> jcorgan: you need to sign up with Alcor 11:41 < docl> there are many branching schools of thought within cryonics. for example, how important is biological viability? if you are mostly thinking in terms of scanning to digital substrate, you might be more persuaded by the argument that we should employ fixatives along with the antifreeze. 11:42 < docl> on the other hand, fixative reactions, despite being categorized as 'irreversible' in the chemistry sense, might be technologically reversible at some point. 11:43 < Fausta> I really am skeptical about uploading 11:43 < kanzure> skeptical about what 11:43 < docl> is it the copying paradox or the substrate change that bothers you about that? 11:43 < Fausta> for one thing, what are they going to upload you onto, I suspect that the brain is exploiting some aspect of its physics and that you can't just upload a mind program onto regular turing machine hardware 11:44 < kanzure> uh oh 11:44 < kanzure> a dualist! get him! 11:44 < Fausta> like, as they approach the kind of hardward that can really "run a mind program" they will discover that they are converging to animal brain architeture 11:44 < kanzure> keep in mind that uploading is not the same thing as running 11:44 < kanzure> uploading is data preservation first 11:44 < docl> Fausta: why not just print a new brain with identical physical structure? 11:45 < Fausta> docl: that would prob work but then you have this copying issue 11:45 < Fausta> I am really hung up on having a continuous world-line lol 11:45 < kanzure> i'm not convinced anyone has contnuous anything in their head 11:46 < Fausta> prob this was the first instance of "world-line" and "lol" occurring in the same statement 11:46 < kanzure> *continuous 11:46 < docl> :) 11:46 < docl> I seem to get my consciousness interrupted whenever I go to sleep. (bug, plz fix) 11:46 < Fausta> kanzure: I mean that physically you are connected to all your previous selves from earlier moments 11:47 < Fausta> and this physical restart woud be a break from you 11:47 < kanzure> and... compared to nothing, a 'break' sounds OK anyway. 11:47 < docl> causally (and a bit physically), all your copies are connected to your previous selves 11:47 < Fausta> physically and not a bit, time is a spatial dimension 11:48 < kanzure> consciousness is spherical cow 11:48 < Fausta> I am literally physically connected to my baby self and if I break this line that restart is not me 11:48 < kanzure> why would it matter if it is "not you" anyway... if it has 95% of your memories, does it matter? 11:48 < Fausta> yeah it really does 11:48 < kanzure> "death first before 95%" eh? 11:49 < Fausta> I mean, I am getting preserved by alcor but my hope is that they can make that messed up vitrified brain work again 11:49 < kanzure> there will be significant brain damage 11:49 < docl> if you step into the teleporter you're just as connected to your baby self, it just follows a slightly different vector than you're used to. 11:50 < kanzure> even in my "maybe we can make cryopreservation work" scheme, i'm pretty certain if animals wake up then they are going to be mortally wounded 11:51 < Fausta> I don't understand why bill gates/warren buffet/soros/etc are not making this their first priority; do they not understand that death is their biggest problem 11:51 < kanzure> they probably don't have any good ideas for approaches 11:51 < Fausta> Evelyn Rothschild owns the world and can't save his own life 11:51 < kanzure> a lot of this is obscure knowledge stuff 11:51 < docl> maybe peter thiel will talk donald trump into promoting life extension and cryonics :P 11:51 < Fausta> it is like Palpatine's comment about his mentor 11:52 < kanzure> ol' pete has been stuffing the fda with immortalists 11:52 < Fausta> docl: maybe, some good thing will come of this 11:53 < Fausta> I think de grey should cut off the beard and present himself in a more serious way 11:54 < kanzure> he can keep the beard, as long as he gets more science happening 11:54 < kanzure> (which i'm not sure he's been doing) 11:56 < Fausta> also, I wonder how long a brain could live in a young body 11:56 < Fausta> part of the issue is blood supply; maybe they can just stick your old brain inside the skull of a 20 yr old accident victim if they figured out how to reconnect spinal cord/cure paralysis 11:57 < yashgaroth> the main problem with anti-aging research is that biology is hard; we've had half of biologists working on cancer for 50 years, and we're still using 50 year old chemotherapy drugs as first-line treatments 11:59 < yashgaroth> CAR-T therapies are killing more people than they save, CRISPR is an incremental improvement, most anti-aging proponents are hacks 11:59 < Fausta> Helen Blau has made a real finding, at the Buck Institute 11:59 < Fausta> she put telomerase mRNA into cells in a dish and got a transient (not perm=cancer) increase in telomere length 12:00 < Fausta> and they underwent many more divisions before dying 12:01 < yashgaroth> well yeah you're not gonna induce cancer just by adding telomerase, but it's an important regulatory check on cancer cells 12:01 < docl> I keep thinking there should be a workaround for cryonics that is more in the realm of pure physics. Like, thread the tissue with carbon nanotubes to make it thermally conductive or perfuse with a bunch of tiny spheres loaded with the chemicals for high energy density endothermic reactions 12:01 < yashgaroth> telomeres govern the hayflick limit in cultured cells but it's a tiny fraction of the problem 12:02 < Fausta> docl: what would this do 12:02 < kanzure> docl: i'm sure materials will help with cryonics, but it's not going to be the full story 12:03 < kanzure> docl: mike darwin is a big fan of large-scale gas to transfer heat into the body. he has very scary pressurization ideas. 12:03 < docl> Fausta: super rapid cooling that isn't limited by the size of the target 12:04 < docl> that's the main obstacle of vitrification. that and cryoprotectant delivery time 12:05 < Fausta> well and that little problem of no idea how to reverse it 12:05 < kanzure> cell survival is already >1% in some cases 12:05 < Fausta> I think some very very subtle structures in the brain that are necessary will be fucked up by vitrification 12:05 < Fausta> it is just too brutul a process 12:05 < kanzure> yes, it's lots of damage 12:06 < Fausta> I don't like the fact that the brain tissue is being put into a solid state, that is my main issue with all this 12:06 < Fausta> brain is delicate with consistency of warm porridge 12:06 < jcorgan> that's a pretty hannibal lechter way of putting it 12:07 < docl> solid state is the safest state if you can get there cleanly. 12:07 < yashgaroth> yeah solidification isn't the biggest problem, it's getting sufficient cryoprotectant to 100% of neurons before the cryoprotectant causes brain death 12:07 < kanzure> besides, we don't have to test human brains, you can test with mammal brains 12:08 < kanzure> also, you can breed cells to be resistance to cryotoxins 12:08 < yashgaroth> neurons are sensitive little bitches, far more than any other tissue 12:08 < Fausta> yashgaroth: I mean biggest problem in the sense of "why even try this, it can never work" 12:09 < docl> yashgaroth: you mean 100% concentration needed to vitrify, right? (you don't need to replace 100% of the water.) 12:09 < yashgaroth> well, if 1% of your neurons get killed by ice crystals you're not likely to recover 12:10 < docl> oh, sorry, read you wrong. 12:10 < Fausta> we need to figure out how to put a brain in a vat and keep it sustained indefinitely 12:10 < yashgaroth> yeah not 100% trehalose, just enough to vitrify and preserve dendrites and axons and w/e 12:10 < Fausta> and slow down metabolic rate to where aging is negligible 12:10 < kanzure> 1% brain damage doesn't sound too bad 12:10 < docl> 100% of cells 100% CNV is what you want, but it's going to still be 20-40% water or so. 12:10 < yashgaroth> oh yeah you need water there for sure 12:11 < Fausta> what is CNV 12:12 < docl> cnv=concentration needed to vitrify 12:12 < docl> artificial mechanisms to import or produce intracellular trehalose would be helpful 12:12 < Fausta> btw what happened with Minsky 12:12 < Fausta> did they get to him in time 12:12 < docl> it doesn't get into mammal cells very well. diffusion is slow. 12:13 < kanzure> minsky had a legion of mit students to copy his every thought down, he's fine 12:13 < kanzure> oh you mean cryonics 12:13 < Fausta> lol 12:19 < docl> Fausta: there are two kinds of vitrification really. one involves mixing substances to make the freezing point lower (colligative properties), the other is to cool it so fast it doesn't get the chance to nucleate into crystals 12:20 < cluckj> lol 12:21 < Fausta> I thought that fast cooling is what led to crystals 12:21 < Fausta> oh actually no it wouldn't; I guess I am thinking of this cracking problem 12:22 < docl> so, in addition to the frozen state and the vitreous state there is the supercooled liquid state 12:23 -!- augur [~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:23 < Fausta> docl: that sounds more likely to be something you might recover from 12:24 < Fausta> all we really need to do is keep a brain in some liquid suspension with chemicals that depress metabolism and hence greatly slows aging 12:24 < docl> the rate of nucleation can also be prevented from being as fast by a few methods. extremely pure water doesn't nucleate unless it experiences mechanical shocks, for example. and there are nucleation inhibiting molecules 12:24 < Fausta> while still providing whatever is needed for the cells to remain alive 12:25 < Fausta> what exacty is nucleation 12:26 < docl> it's the starting point for crystal growth 12:27 < docl> for example, every snowflake starts out as a speck of dust in the upper atmosphere. the clouds already have droplets of supercooled water in them by the time the snow starts to form. 12:27 < docl> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_nucleus 12:28 -!- anachronick [~kvirc@a81-84-40-93.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:28 -!- Pent [~pant@S01061c1b689d60c9.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:31 < docl> the rate of cooling you need for water that isn't mixed with other stuff tends to be absurdly fast. but if you add cryoprotectants to depress the freezing point, this permits more realistic cooling rates. so it's not an all or nothing relationship between the two strategies. but you can also mix so much antifreeze that freezing can't happen even if you cool slowly. 12:31 < jcorgan> i thought every snowflake starts out as a freshman at a US liberal arts university 12:31 < Fausta> lol that was truly excellent, jcorgan 12:32 < docl> touche 12:34 < cluckj> :/ 12:36 < Fausta> well you are always trying to cool fast enough that it doesn't nucleate into crystals 12:36 < Fausta> it's just that what that required rate is is determined by whether you added these protectants right 12:36 < docl> right 12:38 < docl> (except when you're using a slow freezing based approach to cryobiology, which is less workable in the complex human tissue context) 12:40 < Fausta> I just really think that we need to focus on what we were trying to do in the first place 12:40 < Fausta> why not have a room temp suspension for a brain where it is perfused with metabolism-reducing chemicals 12:40 < Fausta> metabolic rate reduction I mean 12:40 < docl> would those chemicals work on bacteria? 12:41 < Fausta> this is sth I discussed with More 12:41 < docl> fixatives work great against bacteria :P 12:41 < Fausta> perhaps we could add an antibacterial agent 12:41 < kanzure> bacteria can be constructed that help with vitrification, though 12:42 < kanzure> and other behavior 12:42 < docl> but there are slower chemical processes to worry about. if you fix all proteins with glutaraldehyde, the lipids degrade over time. 12:44 < Fausta> with this approach docl you are denaturing all kinds of proteins in the brain 12:44 < Fausta> how are we going to return them to their native structures 12:44 < Fausta> I mean it is just hopeless I feel 12:45 < docl> the cooling alone doesn't cause denaturing 12:45 < Fausta> those cryoprotectans do 12:45 < docl> only if they are present over enough time at warm enough temperatures 12:46 < yashgaroth> glutaraldehyde will if it's doing its job, that'd only be good for whole-brain scanning 12:48 < Fausta> so is anyone here into lucid dreaming 12:48 < yashgaroth> stuff like trehalose won't necessarily denature proteins, often the opposite 12:48 < docl> eh, immobilizing a protein isn't quite the same as denaturing it 12:48 < Fausta> my induction device came in the mail 12:48 < yashgaroth> well if it's a covalent linkage, either way it's not functional afterward 12:49 < kanzure> yes we have a few lucid dreaming people 12:50 < docl> are we worried about replacing specific proteins for identity-theoretic reasons? 12:50 < kanzure> which device? 12:50 < kanzure> docl: no 12:50 < cluckj> I did lucid dreaming the analog way 12:50 < Fausta> REM-Dreamer Pro 12:50 < yashgaroth> just for reversible vitrification 12:50 < Fausta> I can do it without it but am lazy 12:51 < Fausta> more is like "what about bedsores" and I was like "rotate them on a spit' lol 12:51 < Fausta> his wife is like this vampy 60 yr old woman 12:52 < Fausta> prob tons of surgery 12:52 < yashgaroth> no shit 12:52 < kanzure> they used to live down the street from me 12:52 < Fausta> so here is something odd 12:52 < Fausta> I was going through a bad breakup 3 yrs ago and look 5 years older than I do now 12:53 < Fausta> I don't see how this is possible; it's not like your telemeres can get any longer 12:53 < Fausta> once stress is gone 12:53 < Fausta> lol really kanzure 12:53 < docl> yashgaroth: since reversible whole brain vitrification doesn't yet exist, we're talking about nanotech enabled reversal to begin with. this is orders of magnitude harder than the easiest forms of that, but still distinct from the upload scenario. 12:53 < cluckj> vampire doesn't really cover it completely... 12:54 < yashgaroth> docl ah that's fair 12:57 < yashgaroth> fausta you seem hung up on telomeres, when that sounds more like malnutrition/lack of sleep/mental health/etc 12:58 < Fausta> I was sleeping just fine; what I mean is, my skin is elastic now and three years ago I looked like 45 or something 12:59 < docl> in general, using trehalose biomagically delivered to all the cells (or some other chemically reversible method of rendering vitrification survivable) is a more desirable approach than fixation. whether it can be achieved within our lifetimes is another question though. 12:59 < Fausta> how can emotional stress make your skin less elastic; I feel it must be a telomere thing 12:59 < cluckj> cortisol is weird 13:00 < Fausta> ah yes, you are probably right cluckj 13:00 < yashgaroth> mhm 13:00 < cluckj> or you have some sort of undiagnosed chronic illness? 13:00 < cluckj> diabetes made my skin wacky 13:00 < Fausta> no I was saying I was under incredible stress a few years ago and looked much older 13:01 < cluckj> oh 13:01 < cluckj> but you're better now 13:01 < Fausta> yes, which made me wonder if my telomeres got longer but prob it was just cortisol 13:02 < Fausta> docl: what about just doing it to an isolated brain in a vat 13:02 < kanzure> Fausta: oh btw there's a method where it has been suggested that we hook up human brains into pig abdomens for long-term storage 13:02 < kanzure> connected to a blood supply 13:02 < cluckj> lol yikes 13:03 < Fausta> that is exactly the kind of thing that interests me 13:03 < kanzure> you're in the right place... 13:03 < docl> Fausta: good plan, but needs the tech to keep a brain alive in a vat 13:03 < Fausta> I don't care about my ideas being stolen because someone making it happen by the time I am 90 is more important than me doing it 13:03 < cluckj> yeah 13:03 < jcorgan> that's not as weird/interesting as gestating human babies in cow uteruses to avoid pregnancy related changes 13:03 * Fausta moos 13:04 < cluckj> sweet 13:04 < Fausta> my great fear is that we are just sorry stepping stones for future generations 13:04 * Fausta glares at future generations 13:04 < docl> if you could keep the brain alive in a vat for long, that might be a form of life extension in and of itself 13:05 < Fausta> docl: yes, and provide it with gen anaesthesia so you don't have the horror scenario 13:05 < kanzure> as i mentioned the other day, i now think that reducing the amount of mandatory sleep is the closest and best way we have for life extension for now 13:06 < docl> also be sure to figure out how to prevent manifestations of psychic mind control phenomena so we don't get Donovan's Brain 13:07 < docl> Is there much hope of reducing sleep requirements any time soon? 13:08 < kanzure> docl: 4-5 hours of sleep/night, plus resistance to sleep deprivation -- see http://gnusha.org/logs/2016-11-25.lo 13:08 < docl> that would be incredibly neat, assuming no cognitive impairment 13:08 < kanzure> (DEC2 mutations) 13:08 < kanzure> see the "sleep" section on diyhpl.us/wiki/genetic-modifications/ 13:08 < kanzure> er.. http://diyhpl.us/wiki/genetic-modifications/ 13:08 < cluckj> 4-5 hours would be great 13:08 < jcorgan> some pharmaceuticals are effective at shifting the requirement around for a while but not permanently reducing it, it seems 13:08 < Fausta> kanzure, you are really into genetic modifications, but what profiteth it us 13:08 < Fausta> we the living 13:09 < Fausta> -eth, that was wrong 13:09 < kanzure> words are hard 13:09 < kanzure> gene therapy can work in human adults 13:09 < Fausta> hard is a word 13:09 < kanzure> also there are non-viral gene delivery mechanisms 13:09 < kanzure> and also, electroporation 13:10 < Fausta> example of where this actually happened in real life? 13:10 < jcorgan> also, some people have had success with various polyphasic sleep patterns, but it's all anecdotal 13:10 < kanzure> Fausta: various gene therapies have been deployed to the blind, so far 13:10 < kanzure> jcorgan: there's probably a genotype that has higher susceptibility to success with polyphasic sleep..... would be interesting to find out what mutations are required for polyphasic sleep to not suck ass. 13:11 < kanzure> Fausta: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/gene-therapy/ 13:11 < Fausta> I wonder what it is about the eyes that make them the lowest hanging fruit 13:12 < yashgaroth> immune privilege for one 13:13 < Fausta> well, the brain has that too 13:13 * Fausta gets hopeful 13:14 < yashgaroth> relatively easy to access the eye vs. the brain, much smaller target since it's usually just the retina, but yes 13:14 < Fausta> if we could cure aging in the brain and figure out how to do brain transplants that would be effectively a cure 13:14 < Fausta> at least for the rich 13:14 < kanzure> i'm sure some other gene therapy trials have been done by now, i dunno, i haven't been tracking them as closely as i should be 13:16 < yashgaroth> hemophilia, lipoprotein lipase deficiency, not much else has moved far 13:16 < kanzure> hey hemophilia that's a good one 13:17 < yashgaroth> oh and scid kids 13:18 < yashgaroth> much easier when they don't have an immune system in the first place 13:18 < kanzure> did you ever look at ligandal by any chance? 13:19 < jcorgan> kanzure: a permanent reduction in sleep requirements would of course be useful, but even just being able to shift it around without a "suck ass" impact on waking performance is good 13:19 < Fausta> maybe they can invent a machine in the future that will do all the stuff to your brain that sleep does 13:19 < Fausta> within an hour 13:19 < kanzure> i think they call those naps, but i'm not sure 13:19 < kanzure> (kidding. let's do it.) 13:19 < Fausta> thing is, body itself is regenerated during deep sleep 13:20 < yashgaroth> yeah I looked into ligandal, we'll see if it works well enough to be worthwhile 13:20 < kanzure> yashgaroth: did you know they were lurking in here? 13:20 < jcorgan> certain nootropics seem effective in this regard 13:20 < yashgaroth> I seem to recall you knew them, or was that cpopell 13:20 < kanzure> wasn't me 13:21 < yashgaroth> I think he had the RPI connects w/ them 13:21 < jcorgan> and as long as total sleep proportion averages out in the long run, the brain is pretty flexible 13:22 < jcorgan> on military submarines the crew often has a 6/12 sleep/wake schedule with 18 hour days, for weeks or months at a time 13:23 < jcorgan> (the crew is split into 3 shifts, staggered, so there is always 2/3's awake and 1/3 sleeping) 13:24 < kanzure> it's hard for me to produce certain kinds of thoughts in anything under 20 hours 13:24 < kanzure> so having long unnterrupted periods of wakefulness is highly useful to me 13:24 < kanzure> *uninterrupted 13:28 -!- Gurkenglas [~Gurkengla@dslb-178-008-224-044.178.008.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:33 -!- Fausta [4cda14cc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.218.20.204] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:34 < jcorgan> there are ways, each with tradeoffs 13:36 -!- augur [~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:36 < kanzure> i was hoping to find a brain lesion study of sleep, maybe certain lesions cause really weird sleep behavior 13:36 < kanzure> or brain stimulation studies 13:36 < kanzure> unfortunately all i found was something about electrical stimulation used to wake people out of general anesthesia 13:37 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/sleep/Electrical%20stimulation%20of%20the%20parabrachial%20nucleus%20induces%20reanimation%20from%20isoflurane%20general%20anesthesia%20-%202016.pdf 13:37 < kanzure> and "Optogenetic stimulation of astrocytes in the posterior hypothalamus increases sleep at night in C57BL-6J mice" http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/sleep/Optogenetic%20stimulation%20of%20astrocytes%20in%20the%20posterior%20hypothalamus%20increases%20sleep%20at%20night%20in%20C57BL-6J%20mice%20-%202015.pdf 13:38 < jcorgan> that fact that sleep is so conserved across so many species over evolutionary time frames likely means there is likely some deep-seated need for it in the brains that use it 13:39 < kanzure> there was an argument posted to arxiv or bioarxiv recently that went something like, "sleep isn't entirely harmful, so it develops and stays around anyway" 13:39 < jcorgan> the above sentence demonstrates (N=1) that sleep deprivation can lead to poor grammar and repeated words 13:39 < kanzure> .title https://arxiv.org/abs/1610.00293 13:39 < yoleaux> [1610.00293] The evolution of sleep is inevitable 13:39 < kanzure> "There are two contrasting explanations of sleep: as a proximate, essential physiological function or as an adaptive state of inactivity and these hypotheses remain widely debated. To investigate the adaptive significance of sleep, we develop an evolutionary argument formulated as a tractable partial differential equation model. We allow demographic parameters such as birth and mortality rates... 13:39 < kanzure> ... to vary through time in both safe and vulnerable sleeping environments. From this model we analytically calculate population growth rate (fitness) for sleeping and non-sleeping strategies. We find that, in a temporally heterogeneous environment, sleeping always achieves a higher fitness than not sleeping. As organisms do not exist in constant environments, we conclude that the evolution of sl... 13:39 < kanzure> ...eep is inevitable." 13:39 -!- augur [~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:41 < jcorgan> my point is not that we couldn't find a way to artificially reduce sleep, but that its not likely a property of a single area of the brain or manipulable with a single receptor target 13:45 < kanzure> sure, it's probably general transcription everywhere 13:45 < kanzure> which is why DEC2 mutations (which modulate transcription) cause reduced sleep 13:47 -!- UnknownRogue [~UnknownRo@2601:194:0:b872:ade5:98ba:3ddd:9624] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:47 < kanzure> "sleep rebound in some but not all organisms [8, 13, 15]" cool i wonder which ones don't have sleep rebound, that would be a useful trick 13:47 < kanzure> [8] OI Lyamin and LM i Mukhametov. Organization of sleep in the northern fur seal. The Northern Fur Seal. Systematic c, Morphology, Ecology, Behavior. Nauka, Moscow, pages 280-302, 1998. 13:48 < kanzure> [13] Niels C Rattenborg, Bruce H Mandt, William H Obermeyer, Peter J Winsauer, Reto Huber, Martin Wikelski, and Ruth M Benca. Migratory sleeplessness in the white-crowned sparrow (zonotrichia leucophrys gambelii). PLoS Biol, 2(7):e212, 2004. 13:48 < kanzure> [15] Sam Ridgway, Mandy Keogh, Don Carder, James Finneran, Tricia Kamolnick, Mark Todd, and Allen Goldblatt. Dolphins maintain cognitive performance during 72 to 120 hours of continuous auditory vigilance. Journal of Experimental Biology, 212(10):1519-1527, 2009. 13:48 < kanzure> haha someone tested sleep deprivation effects on dolphins? 13:49 < cluckj> lol 13:49 < kanzure> "Dolphins maintain cognitive performance during 72 to 120 hours of continuous auditory vigilance" http://jeb.biologists.org/content/212/10/1519.short 13:50 < cluckj> enhanced dolphin interrogation 13:50 < kanzure> "The present study reports the first use of a choice visual-vocal response time cognitive task, during 72 or 120 h of continuous auditory vigilance. Two adult bottlenose dolphins (Tursiops truncatus), NAY (male) and SAY (female), maintained a very high detection rate (91.1-98.7%) of random 1.5 s goal tones infrequently substituted in a background of frequent 0.5 s equal-amplitude tones ove... 13:51 < kanzure> ...r continuous 72 or 120 h sessions" 13:51 < kanzure> "The animals maintained high levels of goal tone detection without signs of sleep deprivation as indicated by behavior, blood indices or marked sleep rebound during 24 h of continuous post-experiment observation." 13:52 < cluckj> I wonder what kind of experiments dolphins are running on us 13:53 < kanzure> although, they have the stupid hemispheric sleep thing going on, so...... 13:53 < jcorgan> maybe the dolphins have secret meth labs too 13:54 -!- UnknownRogue [~UnknownRo@2601:194:0:b872:ade5:98ba:3ddd:9624] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:38 -!- Gurkenglas [~Gurkengla@dslb-178-008-224-044.178.008.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:39 -!- _sol_ [~smuxi@2601:8d:600:1e20:4691:2601:30f8:4136] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:41 -!- _sol_ [~smuxi@2601:8d:600:1e20::4] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:50 -!- UnknownRogue [~UnknownRo@2601:194:0:b872:ade5:98ba:3ddd:9624] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:53 -!- UnknownRogue [~UnknownRo@2601:194:0:b872:ade5:98ba:3ddd:9624] has quit [Client Quit] 16:03 -!- Gurkenglas [~Gurkengla@dslb-178-008-224-044.178.008.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:20 -!- Fausta [4cda14cc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.218.20.204] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:34 -!- Fausta [4cda14cc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.218.20.204] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:40 -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@91.180.156.194] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:40 -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@91.180.156.194] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:46 -!- Fausta [47ee9284@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.238.146.132] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:47 < kanzure> hmm 16:51 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-101-180-233-178.lnse3.cha.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:51 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-101-180-233-178.lnse3.cha.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Changing host] 16:51 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@unaffiliated/ebowden] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:56 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@unaffiliated/ebowden] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:00 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@2001:8003:103c:ee00:2db6:fe6:b3de:91d8] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:00 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@2001:8003:103c:ee00:2db6:fe6:b3de:91d8] has quit [Changing host] 17:00 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@unaffiliated/ebowden] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:02 < Fausta> what is the deal with this ebowden 17:02 < Fausta> autoconnect? 17:03 < ebowden> My laptop disconnects whenever its screen goes dark. 17:03 < ebowden> (Whenever it goes to sleep.) 17:03 < kanzure> yea we should kickban him 17:04 < kanzure> use a bouncer or a server that runs irc for you 17:04 < kanzure> like with tmux or screen 17:05 < ebowden> Just leaving it plugged in completely abrogates this problem. 17:06 < cluckj> power saving on your network card 17:07 < kanzure> he lives in tasmania or something, power might be expensive or something. use a server to connect to irc. 17:07 < cluckj> lol 17:07 < Fausta> lol 17:07 < cluckj> has to ride a bike to charge his laptop? 17:07 < Fausta> dynamo 17:08 < kanzure> at least it's not ecuador 17:08 < kanzure> eudoxia: where are you? 17:09 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/806957840476897280 17:09 < yoleaux> The Mercury 7 are all gone. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CzLj0UMWgAAB6Vd.jpg (@jonostrower) 17:16 -!- fleshtheworld [~fleshthew@2602:306:cf0f:4c20:9e3:e497:e408:e134] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:26 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rxnkhrjnjjtgjpmj] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:30 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:35 < kanzure> 'architecture of destiny' (i thought it lookd like kowloon walled city) http://assets.inhabitat.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/2013/04/Architecture-of-Density-Michael-Wolf-lead.jpeg 17:38 < kanzure> an expanded set of crispr kits http://www.the-odin.com/gene-engineering-kits/ 17:39 -!- _sol_ [~smuxi@2601:8d:600:1e20::4] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:42 -!- _sol_ [~smuxi@2601:8d:600:1e20:4691:2601:30f8:4136] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:43 < kanzure> josiah got interviewed a while back https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNA3ndCrLxw 17:48 < kanzure> ah, this was the one i was thinking about: 17:48 < kanzure> .title https://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/5hdj02/trump_considers_agereversal_enthusiast_to_lead_fda/ 17:48 < yoleaux> Too Many Requests 17:48 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y7oazjaSyE 17:48 < yoleaux> Fight Aging with a Durable Business - Jim O'Neill - YouTube 17:48 < Fausta> I think it is odd that women are done at age 40 with reproduction but outlive men by like 10 yrs 17:51 < kanzure> don't you know the joke? 17:51 < Fausta> men die earlier because they have to deal with women? 17:51 < kanzure> yes, the joke is about men dying first in marriages 17:51 < Fausta> I think prob testosterone is hard on the body 17:52 < kanzure> could be more like-- more men die earlier anyway due to dangerous field occupations like hunting and jumping off of cliffs or whatever 17:52 < Fausta> no I think even correcting for that 17:52 < kanzure> no no i don't mean statistically 17:53 -!- Madars [~null@unaffiliated/madars] has quit [Quit: reconnect] 17:53 < kanzure> i mean that, generally it's better to have younger males around in a group 17:53 < kanzure> rather than older males 17:53 < kanzure> or rather, it *was* 17:53 < Fausta> not nec 17:54 < Fausta> the testosterone can invite less than wise decisions (no offense) and this is tempered in older males 17:55 < kanzure> also, i suppose 10 years is a very odd number in particular-- what is that, 20% of average lifespan back when everyone died at 50? 17:56 < cluckj> https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Natural-Body-Archaeology-Hormones/dp/0415091918 17:56 < Fausta> yeah I mean now there is this 10 yr age difference it seems 17:56 < Fausta> maybe women and men died about the same age back in the day, idk 17:56 < kanzure> http://biology.stackexchange.com/questions/30997/why-do-women-live-longer-than-men 17:57 < Fausta> people are propped up with medication now etc., we are living into the unnatural end of the spectrum more and more 17:57 < kanzure> "While women stop reproducing earlier than males, women often provide more care to their grandchildren than men do. As a result of this behaviour, genes coding for longer lifespan are beneficial by the fact that they help other copies of themselves (found in the grandchildren) to thrive (kin selection)." 17:57 < cluckj> it's interesting that the question is framed in terms of biological reproduction, as if that's the only thing that matters :o 17:57 < cluckj> ^ yep 17:57 < Fausta> not everything is the product of selection though and I don't think that is the reason 17:58 < Fausta> I really think it is just even though nature is done with both of you, old man and old woman, just the female physiology for whatever reason will last longer 17:58 < Fausta> prob something to do with testosterone 18:06 < cluckj> nah 18:16 < Fausta> dawkins is so cute 18:17 < Fausta> his facial structure is very attractive 18:17 < Fausta> he can explain kin selection to me anytime 18:17 * kanzure facepalms 18:18 < Fausta> hitchens was fine too until he got fat 18:18 < Fausta> they need to make a sexy atheist nude calendar 18:19 < kanzure> yes but who uses calendars anymore? 18:28 -!- Cooler_ [~spock@189.121.255.48] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:29 < cluckj> :\ 18:35 -!- pompolic [~A@unaffiliated/pompolic] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:37 -!- pompolic [~A@unaffiliated/pompolic] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:43 < kanzure> i wonder whatever happened to google's project virgle, the one about colonizing mars 18:43 < kanzure> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgle 18:48 < kanzure> "John foresees a lot of difficult detailed engineering for your idea, but no showstoppers" 18:48 < kanzure> "thinks annealing variation will be very complex" 18:48 < kanzure> "like maybe you'll need algos that feed different parts of the genome in pulses at different temperatures" 18:48 < kanzure> okay well if schloendorn says it's possible, then it probably is. homologous recombination is go.... 18:50 < Fausta> is this like spreading chia seed on the planet 18:50 < Fausta> colonizing not as in us but trying to make it something other than a dead rock 18:51 < kanzure> Fausta: yes there are various biology plans for making mars not totally dead 18:52 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/space/Towards%20synthetic%20biological%20approaches%20to%20resource%20utilization%20on%20space%20missions.pdf 18:53 < kanzure> hm not that one 18:54 -!- justan0theruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:54 < kanzure> aha, 18:54 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/space/astrobiology/Synthetic%20biology%20for%20space%20exploration:%20promises%20and%20societal%20implications.pdf 18:55 < Fausta> speaking of space and space travel in a serious way 18:55 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/spacex/elon-musk-making-humans-a-multiplanetary-species/ 18:56 < Fausta> I suspect that the ability to totally destroy yourself arrives maybe 50 yrs before the ability to do serious space travel/colonization 18:56 < Fausta> and that there is maybe a 99% chance of doing so in that 50 yrs 18:56 < kanzure> "existential risk" is off-topic in here 18:56 < Fausta> there is a formal name for this idea? 18:56 < kanzure> there's enough of that from the "oh my god eliezer yudkowsky needs to personally stop all the transhumanists from killing us all" 18:57 < cluckj> lol 18:57 < kanzure> yes... it's endless worrying from lesswrong/singularity institute/future of humanity institute 18:57 < Fausta> this has nothing to do with transhumanism, I just mean weapons etc 18:57 < kanzure> they all want to sit around calculating bayesian probabilities of their inevitable demise, instead of doing hard work like building rockets and viruses 18:58 < Fausta> have you heard of something called the Copernican principle 18:58 < Fausta> I saw it in a book I bought my father on time travel 18:58 < Fausta> it is a way of predicting how much longer something is going to last based on how long it has been around 18:58 < kanzure> alright well if you're going to have this conversation, then i might as well point you to this one 18:59 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/physics/astrophysics/The%20meaning%20of%20life%20in%20a%20cosmological%20perspective%20-%20Clement%20Vidal.pdf 18:59 < kanzure> gets relevant at chapter 6 and after 19:00 < kanzure> however, philosophy is considered off-topic around here 19:00 < kanzure> (because so many people are shit at philosophy and they just gunk this up with bad ideas) 19:01 < Fausta> everything in here is philo at root though 19:01 < kanzure> shh 19:01 < cluckj> yes, but that's not the point of the channel 19:01 < Fausta> cluckj what is your deal, are you an IT person 19:01 < kanzure> also... if you really want to worry about existential risks, the lesswrong community is very good at that. but they are incapable of doing anything about their perceived "threats". (we're one of those perceived threats) 19:01 < cluckj> no, so much worse 19:02 < kanzure> cluckj is a professional people stalker (anthropoogist) 19:02 < cluckj> ^ 19:02 < kanzure> he was assigned to us because he drew the short straw 19:02 < Fausta> I am not familiar with lesswrong but I thought they were sympathetic to transhumanism 19:02 < Fausta> I know that he is hung up on Bayesian approaches 19:02 < kanzure> they are not sympathtic to transhumanism, they are merely aware of it 19:02 < kanzure> to them transhumanism is an existential threat 19:02 < Fausta> are they sympathetic to artificial GI 19:03 < kanzure> no. they want AGI to be fully controlled. 19:03 < Fausta> it is an existential threat in a trivial way, in that people will stop being human and become something else 19:03 < Fausta> yeah idk much about them and not that interested tbh 19:03 < kanzure> okok. it's just an axe that i like to grind 'round these parts. 19:04 < cluckj> lol 19:04 < Fausta> are they very fond of wild-type humans 19:04 < Fausta> as I like to call us 19:04 < kanzure> not sure how to assess that? 19:05 < Fausta> and dont' want to see this species disappear 19:05 < Fausta> or do they think transhumanism is going to wipe out sentient life on earth 19:05 < kanzure> it's more like "we must stop certain kinds of transhumanism because otherwise there will be no control" 19:06 < Fausta> no control over what 19:06 < kanzure> technology, ability, etc. AGI. 19:06 < cluckj> access to power 19:06 < kanzure> whereas i think there was never any control to begin with 19:06 < Fausta> we don't have that right now 19:07 < Fausta> maybe they think the stakes will he higher so it will be more of a problem so special control is needed that is unprecedented 19:07 < kanzure> anyway... 19:09 < kanzure> when you are dong pharmokinetcs, are you doing NEURON things? http://neuron.yale.edu/neuron/ 19:09 < kanzure> like https://senselab.med.yale.edu/ModelDB/FindByReceptor.cshtml 19:09 < Fausta> no but I knew people who used that when I was in grad school 19:10 < Fausta> pk is a trivial topic but I am doing something a bit more involved than that 19:10 < kanzure> example, cholinergic receptor model https://senselab.med.yale.edu/ModelDB/ShowModel.cshtml?model=18198&file=/SYN_NEW/gabab.mod#tabs-2 19:10 < kanzure> ah okay. 19:12 < Fausta> neuroscience is in a rut 19:13 < kanzure> in what way? 19:13 < Fausta> I think they should focus more on general anaesthesia and higher-level aspects of brain function instead of all this focus on the details of how neurons carry out the lowest-level functions 19:14 < Fausta> I knew a mathematician working on binocular rivalry 19:14 < Fausta> that is getting at more imp stuff 19:14 < kanzure> optogenetics has been exploring large-scale behavior through optical inactivation of receptors in specific neurons 19:14 < kanzure> such that we can get specific behavior out of rodents by turning on blue light 19:15 < Fausta> yeah i heard about this 19:15 < Fausta> they made the rat forget about being afraid of getting a shock it had been trained to fear 19:15 < Fausta> if it stood in a certain location 19:15 < kanzure> also things like motor control 19:15 < Fausta> that is where you can turn genes on and off with a laser right 19:16 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Optogenetics:%2010%20years%20of%20microbial%20opsins%20in%20neuroscience%20-%20review%20-%202016.pdf 19:16 < kanzure> above is a recent review of optogenetis progress 19:16 < kanzure> *optogenetics 19:17 < kanzure> and one about optogenetic augmentation of brain function http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Prospects%20for%20optogenetic%20augmentation%20of%20brain%20function%20-%202015.pdf 19:18 < Fausta> can you summarize the latter 19:18 < kanzure> arbitrary stimulation of arbitrary neurons in brains 19:19 < kanzure> lots of movement on figuring out good broadband optics materials for specific stimulation patterns 19:19 < Fausta> maybe they will figure out how to trigger qualia we don't experience yet 19:20 < Fausta> like colors no one has even experienced 19:20 < kanzure> i don't believe in qualia 19:20 < kanzure> nor consciousness nor any of this other dualism stuff. it's not necessary. 19:20 < Fausta> I just mean your subjective experience of things like light of red wavelength 19:20 < kanzure> i'm not sure it's a subjective experience 19:20 < Fausta> lol ok let's see how you deal with surgery w/o GA 19:20 < kanzure> that sounds cruel 19:21 < Fausta> GA is amazing 19:21 < Fausta> local anaesthesia cuts off the pain signal to the ego 19:21 < Fausta> GA works by making the ego vanish 19:21 < kanzure> that sounds very spherical cow 19:21 < Fausta> so that no one exists to feel the pain 19:22 < Fausta> then again, when you are in deep sleep your ego is also temporarily turned off 19:23 < cluckj> cool 19:23 < Fausta> consciousness and qualia are not something from dualism 19:23 < Fausta> dualism is the idea that somehow your software program can be running without the hardware of your brain 19:23 < kanzure> "you don't agree with my assessment of how brains work, so i'm going to deprive you of general anesthesia and inflict pain" is just a silly line of argument you know 19:24 < Fausta> I was responding to your remark about disbelieving in consciousness 19:27 < kanzure> in folk psychology everyone tries to explain the brain with layers and layers of humonculuses 19:28 < Fausta> I wonder how religious people reconcile things like dementia and Alzheimer's 19:29 < Fausta> and just children getting older etc and acquiring the power of speech 19:29 < kanzure> well if they do, they probably forget the reconciliation anyway 19:29 -!- harold [~poetry@li354-248.members.linode.com] has left ##hplusroadmap [] 19:30 -!- MMMalign [51e988cb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.81.233.136.203] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:31 < cluckj> O_o 19:33 < Fausta> was that just a joke or a serious remark 19:34 < kanzure> people with dementia tend to forget things 19:34 < Fausta> I am going to start wearing makeup bc I am under constant lesbo suspician here in AR 19:34 < Fausta> the southern culture here is not the academic environment I am used to 19:35 < Fausta> suspicion even 19:35 < kanzure> just say the word "hubbie" and you'll blend in 19:36 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o kanzure] by ChanServ 19:36 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+oooo yashgaroth fenn jrayhawk cluckj] by kanzure 19:37 <@cluckj> haha 19:41 < jcorgan> Fausta: where in AR, if i might ask 19:41 < Fausta> well I am living in Little Rock but even so 19:41 < jcorgan> i lived 3 years in Harrison. Interesting, but not my favorite part of my life 19:42 < Fausta> religion is taken seriously down here 19:42 <@cluckj> it's god's country 19:42 < jcorgan> even more so when i live there. i was a city boy from LA transplanted to the ozarks 19:43 < Fausta> sounds brutal jcorgan 19:43 < jcorgan> well, mostly, also not being a local hayseed had certain perks 19:44 < jcorgan> but i went to my high school graduation there with everything i owned in the back of my car, and left the ceremony to drive back to california 19:46 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@unaffiliated/ebowden] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:46 < Fausta> yashgaroth sounds like something from lovecraft 19:46 <@yashgaroth> mm 19:46 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-101-180-233-178.lnse3.cha.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:46 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-101-180-233-178.lnse3.cha.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Changing host] 19:46 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@unaffiliated/ebowden] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:47 < Fausta> I only read the Picture in the House, none of the Cthluhlu stuff 19:47 < ebowden> kanzure, what hard work do you do? 19:47 <@yashgaroth> dream quest of unknown kadath is good 19:48 * Fausta correlates all the contents of her mind and gets upset 19:50 <@cluckj> o_O 19:51 <@yashgaroth> quite so 19:51 < Fausta> well, indeed, that is why we are all here isn't it 19:51 < Fausta> interested in transhumanism etc 19:51 < ebowden> I'm here for the papers. 19:51 < Fausta> the only way out of the human condition is to stop being human 19:52 <@cluckj> there's nothing wrong with my human condition, but I'm an outlier here probably 19:52 <@yashgaroth> I do look forward to those terrifying vistas 19:53 < Fausta> oh just aging and death, cluckj 19:53 <@cluckj> I'm okay with those 19:53 < Fausta> has anyone here read conspiracy against the human race 19:53 < Fausta> that is on my to-read list 19:56 <@cluckj> haven't read it 19:57 <@yashgaroth> me either, but I am a fan of terror management theory 19:57 <@cluckj> hah 19:57 < ebowden> Fausta, that book would be seen in a very different light if a race of non-humans was created, seriously persecuted before people decided that was terrible, and stopped. 19:58 < ebowden> It would be like using the title "White Genocide: A History of Zionist Coverup". 19:59 < Fausta> I don't really follow 19:59 < Fausta> prob bc I haven't read the book 19:59 < Fausta> I do wonder why he calls the problems of the human condition a "conspiracy" 19:59 < ebowden> Fausta, just a fun thought experiment. 20:00 < ebowden> A surprise thought experiment, the best kind. 20:03 < ebowden> Fausta, though the title of that book you want to read would bring to mind anti-nonhuman propaganda, the content of that book would still be very different(mostly) to the rhetoric used against the new intelligent creatures in such a (hypothetical)world. 20:04 < Fausta> ????? 20:04 <@kanzure> Fausta: some of the asylum inmates here are not quite transhumanist. they are just here for the diybio crispr genetic editing stuff. and that's alright with me. 20:05 <@kanzure> however, they poke up every now and then 20:05 * kanzure sleeps 20:05 < Fausta> enjoy the temporary ego death 20:06 < ebowden> I've noticed that the non-ideological, yet not particularly cautious transhumanists get lots of shit done. 20:06 <@cluckj> cya 20:06 < ebowden> The nutty ideologues, and the overly cautious "control teh dangris tech" ones do very little. 20:07 < ebowden> *The nutty ideologues, and the overly cautious "CONTRUL TEH DANGRIS TECH" ones do very little. 20:07 <@cluckj> thanks for the extra emphasis :) 20:09 < ebowden> Fausta, did you want me to walk you through the scenario you didn't follow? I suppose I did not pose it to you clearly enough, whatever you need me to clear up, I will have a go. 20:09 < Fausta> another time, I am making ramen 20:10 <@cluckj> I'm here for the diy bio stuff, and other interesting things that pop up; I'm not a transhumanist 20:10 <@cluckj> at best, maybe a posthumanist 20:10 <@cluckj> or a we-have-never-been-humanist 20:10 <@cluckj> err -human-ist 20:11 < ebowden> Are you a non-transhumanist who also wants to "CONTRUL DA DANGRIS TECH!"? 20:11 <@cluckj> definitely not 20:11 < ebowden> Is there any tech short of nuclear weapons you believe should be controlled? 20:11 <@cluckj> it's not dangerous until it's real, so whatevs 20:11 < ebowden> lol 20:11 <@cluckj> controlled...how? 20:12 <@cluckj> and by whom? 20:12 < ebowden> Laws, enforced by governments. 20:12 < ebowden> In my country we do not allow the import of suicide devices. 20:12 < ebowden> Although suicide rates are rising now for some reason, despite their previous decline. 20:13 < ebowden> We have drug laws, and lots of drug problems. 20:14 <@cluckj> yeah 20:15 < ebowden> We have strict firearms legislation, and a lot of firearms, though they're more popular among criminals, partly just by definition in some cases but mostly because serious criminals aren't particularly concerned about breaking additional laws. 20:15 <@cluckj> laws are technologies too, so it gets complicated in my head, I think 20:15 < ebowden> We seize drugs, guns, the lot all the time in huge amounts. 20:16 < ebowden> (Being smuggled into the country, and being made inside the country.) 20:16 < ebowden> The police proudly display these huge seizures as though its a sign they're making real headway. 20:17 < Fausta> lol 20:17 <@cluckj> hah 20:17 < ebowden> In reality its just the tip of the iceberg. 20:17 < jcorgan> what country is that 20:17 < Fausta> if there is so much to seize it indicates quite the opposite 20:17 < ebowden> Australia. 20:17 < Fausta> they display the seizures like some safari dude posing with a dead rhino 20:18 < jcorgan> your country's version of the TSA was quite efficient. my first trip there they seized the jar of vegemite i had in my bag going through the x-ray. 20:18 < ebowden> Its like spending billions spraying three out of ten million houses, and proudly pointing to the giant pile of dead termites as if it shows you are making proper headway. 20:18 < ebowden> lol 20:19 <@cluckj> haha 20:19 < ebowden> And despite that, we are awash with drugs and guns still. 20:19 < JayDugger> That's a fine analogy, ebowden. 20:21 < ebowden> It applies to a lot of things, except for those that don't really take the concept of liberty seriously(there are lots of those in Europe and Australia) most people are generally against prohibition. 20:22 < ebowden> Even a lot of the people that don't take liberty seriously are against it for purely practical reasons. 20:22 < Fausta> well you need some source of funding for the black budget 20:22 < ebowden> Its like only being against death camps because they're an expensive pain to run and those people can be put to work elsewhere. 20:23 <@cluckj> yeesh 20:23 < ebowden> At what statement, or group of statements, is the "yeesh" directed at? 20:23 <@cluckj> that type of thinking about liberty 20:24 -!- Gurkenglas [~Gurkengla@dslb-178-008-224-044.178.008.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:24 < ebowden> Well, I compare people I agree with to Nazis too.' 20:24 < ebowden> Well, I compare people I agree with to Nazis too. 20:25 <@cluckj> hah 20:25 <@cluckj> always gotta look out for the little fascist inside us 20:29 < Fausta> Mussolini's mother had a little fascist inside of her 20:29 < ebowden> I don't mind comparing things I am for, and things I am against to Nazism, because I don't substitute morality for reason, I use it for "Should we?", a question of complex interplay between principle and reality, but less for "Can we?" which mostly involves reason, and just a little morality for automatically excluding evil approaches. Principles of logistics, production, strategy and tactics don't disappe 20:29 < ebowden> ar because Hitler was bad. 20:31 <@cluckj> I don't quite follow 20:31 < ebowden> Much of our knowledge of hypothermia is derived from Nazi experiments on undesirables, but evil does not necessarily ablate rigor. 20:32 < Fausta> I think it is good to use the data 20:32 < Fausta> bc in keeps those people from dying in vain 20:32 < Fausta> and also make the Nazis sort of compensate humanity 20:32 <@cluckj> there was a study suggesting a lot of that data was bad, or unusable 20:32 < ebowden> For example, the Nazis had very clever ideas about rocketry, and we use them. 20:32 < ebowden> Which data? 20:32 <@cluckj> because collecting it was more about torture than science 20:32 <@cluckj> nazi scientific data gathered from human experimentation 20:32 < ebowden> Which human experimentation? 20:33 < ebowden> There was more than one investigator in those medical experiments. 20:33 <@cluckj> http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/naziexp.html 20:33 < ebowden> Mengele did a lot of experiments that were both evil AND nonsense. 20:34 < Fausta> intelligence correlates with not being down with that agenda so I'm not surprised 20:34 < Fausta> hence the brain drain they had, and not just Jewish brains 20:36 < ebowden> This is trying to mix ethics and science. 20:37 < Fausta> no I"m just saying I'm not that surprised Mengele wasn't that competent a scientist 20:37 < ebowden> He was. He just chose to do things that weren't good for answering certain questions. 20:38 < ebowden> The inventor of PCR is an irrational nutbag. 20:38 < Fausta> lol yes that guy took a lot of lsd 20:38 < Fausta> thought a racoon spoke to hinm 20:38 <@cluckj> trying to mix ethics and science? they're not really separable in the first place 20:38 < Fausta> thought that HIV didn't cause AIDS as I recall 20:39 < ebowden> LSD doesn't nesescarily make you irrational. However, you don't need to be rational to do science, you need only follow the scientific method. 20:40 < ebowden> cluckj, trying to mix ethics with deciding if something actually answers certain questions about physiology, rather than if you should have done the thing in the first place. 20:40 < ebowden> I've seen plenty of anti-science nonsense coming from bioethicists. 20:41 <@cluckj> so sort of post-hoc rationalizing? 20:41 < Fausta> btw I think Peter Singer is not that great 20:41 <@cluckj> yeah me too 20:41 < Fausta> I will bring this up again when that kanzure person is here 20:41 <@cluckj> to the anti-science nonsense coming from bioethicists, I mean 20:41 < ebowden> Well its not that its anti-science, its that they don't understand science but talk about it anyway. 20:42 <@cluckj> yeah, I know what you mean 20:42 < ebowden> Or put what is true below their ethical beliefs and sometimes just plain ideological bugaboos. 20:42 <@cluckj> lots of priests are bioethicists ;) 20:42 < ebowden> *sometimes just their plane 20:42 <@cluckj> or lots of bioethicsts are priests... 20:42 < ebowden> *sometimes just their plain 20:44 < ebowden> Fausta, I should like to see if one can increase one's ability to imagine everything in a story they read with the use of Sunifiram. 20:45 -!- anachronick [~kvirc@a81-84-40-93.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:47 < ebowden> *Fausta, I should like to see if one can increase one's ability to imagine everything in a story they are reading with the use of Sunifiram. 20:47 < ebowden> If this turned out to work, the drug could be sold alongside certain types of literature. 20:48 <@cluckj> like serving up PKD with amphetamines 20:48 < ebowden> What is PKD? 20:48 < jcorgan> what is it about sunifiram would do this? 20:49 <@cluckj> philip k dick 20:51 < ebowden> The hippocampus has quite the share of AMPA and NMDA receptors, and a lot of cholinergic innervation. 20:52 <@cluckj> it was a joke; he wrote most of his stuff while super high 20:52 < jcorgan> ebowden: right, but i'm not making the connection to enhanced imagination 20:52 < ebowden> Sunifiram cranks those systems up from 5 to 11 by activating PKC alpha, a tumour suppressor protein once spuriously thought to be an oncogene. 20:53 < ebowden> jcorgan, people with selective hippocampal damage have most of their functioning, their IQ, their learning of skills, etc intact. 20:53 < ebowden> What they don't have intact is the ability to form new memories and imagine a scene. 20:53 < jcorgan> i wasn't aware of a connection to imagination 20:54 < ebowden> If you ask them to imagine being on a beach, before they would have been able to think of the sea, the sand on their feet, the warmth, the smell of spray etc. 20:54 < ebowden> After, the closest they might get is the colour blue. 20:54 < jcorgan> oic 20:54 < jcorgan> brb 20:55 < ebowden> One woman described it as like trying to arrange clothes in a closet, but there are no hangers, so the clothes just drop to the floor. 20:58 < jcorgan> so the hypothesis is that sunifiram's receptor activity modification in the hippocampus would improve on this? 20:58 < ebowden> Yes. I formed it after observing that people who take it can suddenly, crystal clear, draw proteins in their head. 20:58 < ebowden> brb 21:02 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rxnkhrjnjjtgjpmj] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 21:04 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:07 < nmz787> maybe we need to ask the raccoons about cryopreservation, if they knew about PCR, they've gotta have something on that too, right? 21:29 -!- MMMalign [51e988cb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.81.233.136.203] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:01 < docl> lesswrong is pretty cool, just not the most practical resource if you want to be working on actual technology. it's a great place for discussions on literary and academic stuff with transhumanist leanings. quite a bit of that is x-risk based, largely because that is a topic that sells well in academic circles. 22:04 < docl> ironically, yudkowsky published a lot of articles with topics like 'beware topics that are fun to argue' and 'politics is the mind killer', which are deeply embedded in the lesswrong culture. the effect is that everyone focuses on things that are even more fun to argue and even more politically sophisticated. 22:09 < docl> 'beware of reasoning from fictional evidence' -> a whole genre of rationalist fanfiction 22:17 < docl> then there is scott alexander's excellent blog which is mostly 'identity politics suck' -> lots of talking about identity politics 22:34 -!- anachronick [~kvirc@a81-84-40-93.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:43 -!- yashgaroth [~yashgarot@2602:306:35fa:d500:f5e0:f867:a11d:8d52] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:44 < ebowden> You can think Nazism is bad and still talk about it a lot. 23:01 -!- jcorgan [~jcorgan@unaffiliated/jcorgan] has quit [Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in] 23:03 -!- augur [~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:16 < docl> well yeah. actually it's harder not to talk about things you hate (which is one of the things scott has written about -- the toxoplasma of rage article) 23:38 -!- jcorgan [~jcorgan@unaffiliated/jcorgan] has joined ##hplusroadmap --- Log closed Sun Dec 11 00:00:35 2016