--- Log opened Mon Dec 12 00:00:36 2016
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04:17 < nsh> --
04:17 < nsh> Human neocortex expansion likely contributed to the remarkable cognitive abilities of humans. This expansion is thought to primarily reflect differences in proliferation versus differentiation of neural progenitors during cortical development. Here, we have searched for such differences by analysing cerebral organoids from human and chimpanzees using immunohistofluorescence, live imaging, and single-cell transcriptomics. We find that the cytoarchitecture,
04:17 < nsh> cell type composition, and neurogenic gene expression programs of humans and chimpanzees are remarkably similar. Notably, however, live imaging of apical progenitor mitosis uncovered a lengthening of prometaphase-metaphase in humans compared to chimpanzees that is specific to proliferating progenitors and not observed in non-neural cells. Consistent with this, the small set of genes more highly expressed in human apical progenitors points to increased
04:17 < nsh> proliferative capacity, and the proportion of neurogenic basal progenitors is lower in humans. These subtle differences in cortical progenitors between humans and chimpanzees may have consequences for human neocortex evolution.
04:17 < nsh> -- https://elifesciences.org/content/5/e18683
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04:39 < bluebear_> nsh: nice catch, this article :-)
04:40 < bluebear_> nsh: but for me personally, the most interesting part is the organoid they used for comparison :-) although observing the differences and showing how subtle they are is also an important step
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06:28 < kanzure> nsh: http://fennetic.net/irc/human_chimpanzee_brain_differences.png
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07:02 < kanzure> http://docs.ceph.com/docs/jewel/rados/api/librados-intro/
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10:53 < kanzure> http://spectrum.ieee.org/the-human-os/biomedical/devices/tiny-implantable-microcoils-in-the-brain-activate-neurons-via-magnetic-fields
10:54 < kanzure> "In October, the company Second Sight implanted a stimulator in a blind person's visual cortex in a first-of-its-kind experiment" http://investors.secondsight.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=995211
10:54 < kanzure> "Implantable microcoils for intracortical magnetic stimulation" http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/2/12/e1600889
10:58 < kanzure> "Electric-field-stimulated protein mechanics." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27926732
10:58 < kanzure> "Rapidly evolving homing CRISPR barcodes" http://www.nature.com/nmeth/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nmeth.4108.html (previously on biorxiv.org)
11:03 < nmz787_w1> kanzure: my idea years ago was a short-lived drug that would act as a nano/micro antenna
11:04 < nmz787_w1> specifically an inhalant
11:05 < kanzure> how would you get it to the right place?
11:05 < nmz787_w1> molecular structure was my thought
11:06 < nmz787_w1> or if you had fine spatial control of the electronics exterior to the skull, then maybe it could just target any neuron
11:06 < kanzure> oh like targting specific receptors etc
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11:07 < kanzure> beamshaping could get you the rest of the way
11:07 < nmz787_w1> i just was thinking hard about how to get a BCI without nasty through-skin implants
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11:55 < chris_99> is ultrasound any better than eeg out of interest, i'm curious how it compares
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12:26 < kanzure> for stimulation, eeg doesn't work-- you need tdcs or electroshock. ultrasound can do stimulation.
12:26 < chris_99> sorry i was wondering specifically for imaging
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12:27 < kanzure> "The hallmarks of aging" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3836174/
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13:19 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opChLhLMFmU
13:19 < yoleaux> IceDream: The Iceberg project - YouTube
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15:28 < kanzure> bloop
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18:10 < Fausta> so here is something odd
18:10 < Fausta> I took part in a psych experiment in collij where they hooked me up to electrodes while I did some task involving words
18:11 < Fausta> the experiment said I had odd brainwaves in that although I was awake, alpha, beta, delta etc. were all present in equal quantities
18:11 < Fausta> experimenter*
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18:17 < kanzure> because 'brainwaves' is ancient pseudoscience
18:23 < __mz_o> explain
18:26 < kanzure> low resolution recordings of neural activity
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18:28 < __mz_o> hows it been proved otherwise? whats the alternative theory
18:29 < kanzure> electrophysiology
18:30 < __mz_o> hows that related to (eeg?) resolution?
18:31 < __mz_o> in vivo?
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18:32 < kanzure> what?
18:34 < __mz_o> why and how are brainwaves ancient psuedoscience
18:35 < nmz787_w> Fausta: basically it's like saying something about a full-length movie based on the trailer
18:35 < nmz787_w> err, I guess __mz_o
18:36 < __mz_o> kanzure: are you discrediting the method of examination?
18:36 < nmz787_w> or rather, what if you were listening to a symphony, but only heard something for a moment once every 2 seconds, and maybe it was only a single instrument you heard
18:36 < nmz787_w> maybe you'd notice some pattern, but would it really represent the true audio composition?
18:36 < __mz_o> or the theory of alpha, beta, theta, waves etc? if so on what basis?
18:37 < nmz787_w> __mz_o: do you know the sample rate of EEG?
18:37 < nmz787_w> do you know how many MBPS netflix requires? or streaming audio, or what a self-driving car's systems transfer between them and the RAM and CPU???
18:38 < nmz787_w> hint, EEG is miniscule in comparison... so something must obviously be missing
18:38 < __mz_o> i know our silicon is inferior to our wetware
18:38 < __mz_o> but how is it pseudoscience
18:38 < nmz787_w> exactly, so it's doing things faster and with more parallelism probably
18:39 < nmz787_w> so low-sample rate hardware is kind of bogus
18:40 < __mz_o> but why dismiss it when there's no alternative lol?
18:40 < nmz787_w> go try doing a study on peoples' movie habits based on 1% of the data stream of their netflix video history (and not full-segments of video, for all time, toss out 99% of that moment's data)
18:40 < nmz787_w> there is alternatives, which is my argument
18:40 < nmz787_w> idk kanzure's
18:41 < __mz_o> ok. intoxicated, it seemed silly and i just wanted an explanation is all
18:41 < nmz787_w> I have a 1GSPS oscilloscope, it was $400
18:41 < __mz_o> makes sense
18:41 < nmz787_w> it has 4 channels
18:41 < __mz_o> right
18:41 < nmz787_w> a few kHz is a joke
18:41 < __mz_o> i know what youre saying
18:42 < nmz787_w> I literally want to see a study that takes like 16 of my o-scope, and hooks them to EEG pads
18:42 < nmz787_w> and then lets talk experiments and data mining
18:42 < nmz787_w> like, play an audio file to the person, then after the audio ends, have them 'replay' it in their head
18:42 < nmz787_w> and try to find data corellation
18:43 < __mz_o> i dont know the technical specifics but itd be interesting to see a study on high frequency eeg, and reaction to stimuli
18:43 < __mz_o> and its observations
18:43 < nmz787_w> or something like that... display the word 0xbeef... and try finding that in the data
18:43 < __mz_o> yes, what you just said
18:44 < __mz_o> lol program portion of our brain by assembly
18:44 < __mz_o> <s> via pneumonic keys</s>
18:45 < Fausta> your nicks are very confusing
18:45 < __mz_o> so is life
18:45 < Fausta> this could be fixed though
18:45 < __mz_o> by whos choice though?
18:45 < nmz787_w> Fausta: part of the puzzle of personalities
18:45 < __mz_o>  just underscore underscore tab
18:46 < __mz_o> and its me
18:46 < Fausta> I think brain waves as measured by electrodes are too coarse
18:46 < kanzure> "brain waves"
18:47 < kanzure> .wik brain wave
18:47 < yoleaux> "Neural oscillation is rhythmic or repetitive neural activity in the central nervous system. Neural tissue can generate oscillatory activity in many ways, driven either by mechanisms within individual neurons or by interactions between neurons." -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_wave
18:47 < Fausta> but it isn't total nonsense as there are apparently some clearly distinct patterns associated with different mental states
18:47 < Fausta> like deep sleep versus working on an exam
18:48 < nmz787_w> corellation != causation
18:48 < nmz787_w> Fausta: I'd be happier if they just bumped up the analog-to-digital converter sample rate by about 40 years
18:49 < kanzure> "Fast fMRI can detect oscillatory neural activity in humans" http://www.pnas.org/content/113/43/E6679.full
18:49 < __mz_o> isnt there a flaw in fmri?
18:49 < __mz_o> or a manufacturing flaw?
18:49 < nmz787_w> that was just a programming/math CONSTANT error, I thought
18:50 < Fausta> so I was reading about general anaesthesia
18:50 < __mz_o> didnt it render all previous data useless?
18:50 < __mz_o> i lol'd when id read it
18:50 < nmz787_w> __mz_o: I think only because they didn't store the raw data
18:50 < Fausta> and they found that it doesn't stop neural firing from occurring but rather stops coordinated activity among different brain regions
18:50 < __mz_o> ah thats funny and i guess it cant be corrected mathmatically
18:51 < Fausta> so it basically takes out the conductor and random  instruments playing is not enough to give rise to an ego
18:51 < kanzure> Fausta: "Electrical stimulation of the parabrachial nucleus induces reanimation from isoflurane general anesthesia" lice.btc.calendar.opentimestamps.org
18:51 < kanzure> oops
18:51 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/sleep/Electrical%20stimulation%20of%20the%20parabrachial%20nucleus%20induces%20reanimation%20from%20isoflurane%20general%20anesthesia%20-%202016.pdf
18:51 < Fausta> wow
18:55 < Fausta> maybe this PBN is the conductor
18:55 < kanzure> "Towards an executive without a homunculus: computational models of the prefrontal cortex basal ganglia system" http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Towards%20an%20executive%20without%20a%20homunculus:%20computational%20models%20of%20the%20prefrontal%20cortex%20basal%20ganglia%20system.pdf
18:56 < __mz_o> thats a trippy title
18:58 < Fausta> Francis Crick I think wrote a book called the Astonishing Hypothesis where he basically said that the seat of volition was some particular brain region
18:58 < Fausta> not the prefrontal cortex, I can't remember what
18:58 < __mz_o> pineal gland
18:58 < Fausta> you could be aware without it but "wouldn't want to do anything"
18:59 < Fausta> no
19:00 < nmz787_w> read this recently: http://www.sciencealert.com/harvard-scientists-think-they-ve-pinpointed-the-neural-source-of-consciousness
19:00 < nmz787_w> has refs
19:00 < nmz787_w> http://www.neurology.org/content/early/2016/11/04/WNL.0000000000003404.short
19:00 < nmz787_w> .title
19:00 < Fausta> lol I have a feeling that headline is misleading
19:00 < yoleaux> A human brain network derived from coma-causing brainstem lesions
19:01 < nmz787_w> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontine_tegmentum             https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insular_cortex                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anterior_cingulate_cortex
19:01 < nmz787_w> are mentioned specifically
19:03 < Fausta> maybe GA interrupts this network
19:03 < Fausta> that should be their next thing to do
19:04 < nmz787_w> GA?
19:04 < nmz787_w> ! genetic algorithms
19:04 < nmz787_w> ?
19:04 < Fausta> general anaesthesia
19:05 < nmz787_w> basically we need hyperparticle imaging tomography of the brain, I think
19:05 < Fausta> they should take animals and put them in a coma before doing experiments on them
19:05 < nmz787_w> idk if I just invented that word
19:06 < nmz787_w> but like hyperspectral imaging (all EM freqs), and also particle monitoring like free electrons maybe
19:06 < Fausta> btw that piracetam is really having a major impact
19:07 < nmz787_w> I guess free-electron detection wouldn't be needed, since your head isn't in a vacuum
19:07 < Fausta> I felt like my IQ was up by 10 pts today
19:07 < nmz787_w> and electrodes placed on-skin would do the same at catching those electrons
19:09  * Fausta wonders if anyone has tried to do brain augmentation
19:09 < cluckj> I have a calendar in my cell phone, and a notepad
19:09 < Fausta> like, take an animal and expand its skull (make more room) and see if you can put in stem cells and if they'll fill up the rea
19:09 < cluckj> works grerat
19:09 < cluckj> err great
19:09 < nmz787_w> hah
19:10 < __mz_o> nmz787_w: hyperspectral/hyperparticle imaging makes sense
19:11 < __mz_o> to know the exact substance across each nueron as well as voltage, liquid volume, blood flow etc
19:11 < __mz_o> in an ideal world obviously
19:11 < Fausta> that stuff isn't important
19:11 < nmz787_w> Fausta: that stuff /is/ the state of matter though
19:11 < __mz_o> maybe not for consiousness
19:12 < Fausta> they need to do a big data treatment on firing patterns and find the underlying order
19:12 < nmz787_w> in the system of biobrains
19:12 < Fausta> you are like "let's keep track of each particle in this watch to figure out how watches work"
19:12 < __mz_o> it would do wonders for psychopharmocology
19:12 < nmz787_w> obv if the 'brain' was in-silico, the state of matter would be different
19:12 < __mz_o> right
19:12 < kanzure> nmz787_w: some of the neuroimaging techniques that russell hanson likes are the ones where they put a brain in front of particle sources like accelerators etc
19:13 < nmz787_w> kanzure: my deal is, then you're modifying the system... and maybe damaging or altering pathways as result of the system noticing
19:13 < nmz787_w> not quite the quantum observer effect, but sort of a control system version of that
19:14 < kanzure> http://www.anl.gov/articles/adventures-first-neuroscientist-argonne
19:14 < nmz787_w> Fausta: firing patterns are detectable via EM signatures
19:14 < kanzure> from http://gnusha.org/logs/2016-03-28.log
19:14 < nmz787_w> Fausta: that is EEG
19:14 < kanzure> ""We're testing at the APS, and we think it will let us map the entire brain without having to cut it or slice it or deform it -- and to possibly do it very fast -- which is crazy," Kasthuri said. "With a method like that we could do multiple brains, so that we could see the variance between them.""
19:14 < nmz787_w> Fausta: I'm saying we need to expand the frequency range significantly, and the resolution
19:14 < Fausta> no I mean something less crude than that
19:15 < nmz787_w> Fausta: heard of biophotons?
19:15 < kanzure> https://www.anl.gov/nst/person/narayanan-bobby-kasthuri
19:15 < nmz787_w> even photons are EM
19:15 < Fausta> yeah I have nmz787_w that is some weird stuff
19:15 < kanzure> https://www.neuroscience.mcknight.org//newsroom/neuroscience-news/2016-tech-awards
19:16 < kanzure> "Brain-X: Nanoscale maps of entire brains using synchrotron-based high-energy x-rays"
19:16 < kanzure> "Dr. Kasthuri's lab is using high energy X-rays to create complete and comprehensive maps of the brain. The stacks of images generated result in staggering amounts of data that can be segmented to identify the location of every neuron, blood vessel, and component of the brain. By generating maps of healthy mice and human brains, scientists can compare them to pathological samples to better u...
19:16 < kanzure> ...nderstand cellular and ultimately synaptic differences in diseased brains affected by autism, diabetes and stroke, among other diseases."
19:16 < nmz787_w> it used to be thought of as crazy talk, but then lots of reports of 'autoflourescense' turned into connecting the ideas to lots of evidence (at least as I recall)
19:16 < Fausta> that is amazing kanzure
19:17 < kanzure> "Quantifying mesoscale neuroanatomy using X-ray microtomography" https://arxiv.org/abs/1604.03629
19:17 < kanzure> "Methods for resolving the 3D microstructure of the brain typically start by thinly slicing and staining the brain, and then imaging each individual section with visible light photons or electrons. In contrast, X-rays can be used to image thick samples, providing a rapid approach for producing large 3D brain maps without sectioning. Here we demonstrate the use of synchrotron X-ray microtomogra...
19:17 < kanzure> ...phy (?CT) for producing mesoscale (1 ?m3) resolution brain maps from millimeter-scale volumes of mouse brain. We introduce a pipeline for ?CT-based brain mapping that combines methods for sample preparation, imaging, automated segmentation of image volumes into cells and blood vessels, and statistical analysis of the resulting brain structures. Our results demonstrate that X-ray tomography ...
19:17 < kanzure> ...promises rapid quantification of large brain volumes, complementing other brain mapping and connectomics efforts."
19:17 < nmz787_w> the only thing that seems to be missing is the state of EM waves
19:18 < nmz787_w> I'd guess action potentials may be derived
19:18 < nmz787_w> based simply on molecular dispersion
19:18 < nmz787_w> oh, 1 micron res
19:18 < nmz787_w> not quite atomic
19:18 < Fausta> well
19:18 < Fausta> the only problem with this is that it's not safe
19:19 < anachronick> who wants to listen to my radioshow?
19:19 < nmz787_w> I'd say more like, it isn't sustainable
19:19 < kanzure> nanoCT is under investigation by russell hanson's group
19:19 < nmz787_w> also not done with live brains
19:19 < nmz787_w> or not in-skull
19:20 < kanzure> 19:16 < kanzure> here's russell hanson talking about nanoCT and gold nanoparticles for synapse-resolution scanning http://gnusha.org/logs/2014-11-28.log
19:20 < kanzure> from http://gnusha.org/logs/2015-12-16.log
19:20 < nmz787_w> but now I may be drinfting to thinking about things from a BCI standpoint too
19:20 < kanzure> nmz787_w: for BCI things you should read http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Physical%20principles%20for%20scalable%20neural%20recording%20-%20Marblestone.pdf
19:21 < nmz787_w> it might be interesting to think about pausing brain state somehow... seems like general anesthesia is not the trick
19:21 < nmz787_w> but maybe close to it, or related to sleep?
19:22 < nmz787_w> if you can't grab everything in parallel, maybe we can dump things serially in a stream (of time) somehow
19:22 < nmz787_w> flush it out like JTAG
19:22 < kanzure> in the above paper, marblestone proposes molecular ticker tape based on recordings from dna polymerase in each cell
19:22 < kanzure> then recover dna from bloodstream using an array of nanopore sequencers in the human heart
19:23 < nmz787_w> nano-drug DNA-compute-interface to read out the state during sleep, then clear the cache
19:24 < nmz787_w> i hate things dealing with inputting or outputting related to blod
19:24 < nmz787_w> blood*
19:24 < nmz787_w> unless maybe a dissection
19:25 < kanzure> well it ain't going to show up in stool samples
19:25 < nmz787_w> well, this wireless methods
19:26 < nmz787_w> thus*
19:26 < nmz787_w> or maybe we change the pattern in the eyes
19:26 < nmz787_w> and image it daily
19:27 < nmz787_w> there was a movie with Arnold Schwarzenneger for research on that one
19:32 < nmz787_w> hmm, that last paper gets me wondering more about MRI, I really have never studied it
19:32 < nmz787_w> maybe MRI can just get a lot better and this all goes away?
19:32 < cluckj> sixth day?
19:33 < kanzure> no, the one where arnold owns a helicopter tourism company
19:33 < cluckj> yeah
19:33 < cluckj> with the cloning
19:34 < cluckj> and the clones have the dots depending on what number clone they are...
19:36 < Fausta> some group actually kept an isolated animal brain alive for some time in a liquid bath
19:37 < kanzure> tissue culture?
19:38 < Fausta> I mean a full brain
19:38 < Fausta> I think it was an Italian group
19:39 < Fausta> llinas, survived for a few days wikipedia says
19:40 < nmz787_w> hmm, hyperspectral MRI?
19:41 < Fausta> I wonder if you could do some kind of imaging on such a brain and not have the obstruction of a skull etc
19:41 < nmz787_w> and when I read scattering, I think radon transform
19:41 < kanzure> well there's skull windows
19:43 < Fausta> creepy lol
19:45 < nmz787_w> kanzure: you find DNA in urine ;)
19:46 < nmz787_w> not sure how fragmented it would be though
19:46 < nmz787_w> and certainly hope my brain DNA isn't getting dumped out my pee too often/at all
19:47  * kanzure adds this to the list of things to be paranoid about
19:47 < nmz787_w> I guess if it was engineered to ship out, that'd be better
19:47 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/kanzure/status/808518356886286336
19:47 < yoleaux> Client-side validation #bitcoin design, no txns/updates/deltas in blocks only a merkle root: http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/2016-12-11.log @petertoddbtc (@kanzure)
19:47 < Fausta> I thought there was a blood brain barrier
19:47 < cluckj> better start keeping it in jars, dude
19:47 < Fausta> how is brain dna getting into the bloodstream
19:47 < nmz787_w> cluckj: lol
19:47 < Fausta> is it small enough to pass through
19:47 < nmz787_w> Fausta: lotsa stuff makes it past the BBB
19:48 < nmz787_w> idk in this case
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19:48 < cluckj> poop is probably a better place to look, but there's lots of noise there
19:49 < kanzure> i don't think cluckj knows how anatomy works
19:49 < kanzure> he might not have normal human anatomy, though
19:49 < cluckj> lol
19:50 < Fausta> lol
19:50 < kanzure> (you're forgetting that kidneys don't generally dump things from the blood into the intestines)
19:50 < cluckj> I definitely don't, but stuff from the blood does make it into the intestines
19:50 < Fausta> it has to go into the liver and from there get excreted in bile
19:51 < cluckj> ^
19:51 < kanzure> ehhh.
19:51 < Fausta> most of what is in the poop though just failed to get absorbed
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19:52  * kanzure nods
19:53 < cluckj> snot? make it change color for low-bandwidth signaling
19:55 < cluckj> lol
19:59 < Fausta> they need to splice a fluorescence gene into an embryo
20:00 < Fausta> so that all neurons will be tagged and manipulable in the grown organism
20:02 < yashgaroth> what, like brainbow?
20:02 < kanzure> brainbow is too old these days
20:02 < Fausta> another idea someone else thought of first I see
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20:03 < kanzure> "In-vivo RGB marking and multicolour single-cell tracking in the adult brain" http://www.nature.com/articles/srep07520
20:03 < kanzure> there was also a crispr lineage tracing method that was introduced recently
20:04 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/mouse-embryo-immunostained-for-axons-iDISCO.png
20:04 < kanzure> "Improved tools for the brainbow toolbox" http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Improved%20tools%20for%20the%20brainbow%20toolbox%20-%202013.pdf
20:05 < Fausta> I am worried about futuristic torture methods which create horrific qualia
20:06 < Fausta> not to be a whiner
20:06 < kanzure> eh it will be offset by horific amounts of other 'qualia' (whatever that is)
20:06 < Fausta> speaking of which
20:06 < Fausta> I wonder if there is anything special about the firing patterns involved in unpleasant experiences
20:06 < Fausta> pain
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20:18 < nmz787_w> Fausta: I recently thought of using pain as a tracer/signal of some sort
20:19 < nmz787_w> I didn't really develop the idea... just a passing thought
20:20 < nmz787_w> also, people can seemingly develop an enjoyment of pain (self mutilation, tattoos, insane exercise, boxing, etc)
20:22 < Fausta> I think they are enjoying the endorphins sent to the rescue in response to the pain
20:22 < Fausta> certainly that is the case with the insane exercise
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20:26 < nmz787_w> so maybe neural plasticity can rewire some synthetically-driven data-laden pain signals into processing centers
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20:36 < nmz787_w> fenn: what kind of magnesium supplement is the best for my old cranky dad?
20:36 < nmz787_w> I feel like i could grep this in the logs if there was a webgrep of them
20:37 < Fausta> no I don't think it is getting rewired
20:37 < Fausta> rather, it is just that those people are into what follows the pain signals, namely the endorphins
20:37 < nmz787_w> but at least they tolerate it
20:37 < Fausta> I doubt they are enjoying the pain itself but since the endorphins show up soon it gets conflated
20:37 < Fausta> yes
20:37 < nmz787_w> maybe
20:38 < nmz787_w> wire up a baby, quick!
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20:39  * Fausta hangs Gurkenglas on her tree
20:47 < __mz_o> i agree with Fausta, not necessarily rewired, rather tolerated and the downstream effects are favored
20:47 < __mz_o> as in with the above mentioned examples
20:48 < __mz_o> in all aspects of life. humans can look past pain
20:54 < Fausta> I wonder if other animals exercise "courage"
20:55 < Fausta> by which I mean, in contests there is a balance between rage and fear
20:55 < Fausta> I wonder if animals other than humans ever use executive functioning to force themselves to be aggressive even when afraid
20:57 < Fausta> this is one way in which we are different from other animals; you don't have "war" among animals as far I know
20:57 < Fausta> it is just dominance contest skirmishes
21:01 < __mz_o> exact;y
21:01 < __mz_o> ignorance is bliss
21:02 < __mz_o> monkeys have subcultures cliques, and "rival" societies i believe
21:12 < nmz787_w> war seems pretty much like a resource battle in most cases... seems to me that humans just have complex/weird value systems
21:13 < nmz787_w> so what I mean is, it seems like the most 'animalistic' trait we still have
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22:41 < jcorgan> war, racism, and nationalism all have roots in the fact that during evolutionary times, we lived in fairly small, isolated groups, and if you saw someone that wasn't familiar to you, or didn't look like your group, it probably meant they were going to try to kill you
22:42 < jcorgan> of course that is vestigial today, and takes effort during formitive stages to override
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22:44 < jcorgan> *formative
22:50 < Malvolio> they're still trying to kill you
22:54 < jcorgan> heh
22:55 < jcorgan> if that were the case, i would not have married someone of a different race and who grew up just about 12 time zones away from me
22:56 < Malvolio> oo
22:57 < jcorgan> but where i live, that describes most of the population, from all over the world, from every different race, and the diversity is so much that it fades into the background and nobody cares
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--- Log closed Tue Dec 13 00:00:37 2016