--- Log opened Tue Dec 13 00:00:37 2016
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01:13 <@fenn> nmz787: magnesium citrate or magnesium glycinate, but crankiness is probably more to do with disturbed sleep or low blood sugar
01:14 <@fenn> i prefer the magnesium citrate in little bottles in the laxative section
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04:53 <@fenn> joseph vaughn perling proposes using bitcoin miners in power plants to soak up excess production capacity and trade grid power between plants owned by different power companies
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04:57 <@fenn> .title http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38220610
04:57 < yoleaux> Some psychosis cases an 'immune disorder' - BBC News
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04:58 <@fenn> "UK-wide trial that took blood samples from 228 people when they developed psychosis for the first time.
04:58 <@fenn> The strongest evidence was for antibodies that attack the NMDA receptor"
04:58 <@fenn>  in 3% of people tested.
04:58 < kanzure> explain how to use bitcoin to trade power.   wouldn't you rather just send the actual energy as the trade?
04:59 <@fenn> "Bitcoin mining provides a real-time market buyer for all excess, and converts to cash, which can then be used to buy from other grid sellers when needed"
04:59 <@fenn> the energy is separated in time
04:59 <@fenn> bitcoin acts as a store of energy-value
05:00 < kanzure> "real-time market buyer" wellllll it's more probabilistic...
05:00 <@fenn> not if it's a mining pool
05:01 <@fenn> also a power plant could run a crapload of miners
05:04 <@fenn> a partial answer to "why not just trade energy directly" is that it's more efficient to store and transmit bitcoin than to store and transmit energy
05:04 <@fenn> though as a resident of this planet i hope that we don't spend too much energy on bitcoin
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05:04 <@fenn> or at least figure out how to build terawatts of nuclear/solar first
05:05 < chris_99> could they use flywheels or something instead
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05:05 <@fenn> yes
05:05 <@fenn> there are a variety of energy storage schemes
05:06 <@fenn> vanadium redox liquid batteries are an interesting one
05:06 <@fenn> aluminum smelting is similar to bitcoin mining in that it stores well and transmits efficiently over long distances
05:07 <@fenn> but bitcoin mining scales better and has a quicker throttle
05:07 < chris_99> that battery looks v. interesting
05:07 < chris_99> never heard of it before
05:09 <@fenn> in an alternate timeline we'd have been researching organic redox batteries
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05:10 <@fenn> (all batteries are redox batteries so i dunno what's up with that terminology)
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05:10 < chris_99> Have you seen that setup in the desert, where they have mirrors pointing at a tower, with salt in, iirc, turning it into molten salt, do you know how they extract energy from that
05:10 < chris_99> steam?
05:11 <@fenn> the salt is just a heat transfer fluid
05:11 <@fenn> i think they use stirling engines in most of them
05:11 < chris_99> ahh
05:11 <@fenn> there's also AMETEC
05:12 <@fenn> a solid state conversion of heat to electricity by ion flow through beta aluma electrolyte
05:12 <@fenn> alumina*
05:12 < chris_99> ooh
05:12 <@fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkali-metal_thermal_to_electric_converter
05:13 <@fenn> not good enough efficiency for a utility plant
05:13 < chris_99> ah
05:15 < kanzure> bitcoin is more like a proof-of-burn of energy
05:16 < chris_99> heh
05:16 <@fenn> unfortunately it's a weird non-unit conversion
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05:17 <@fenn> the price (in joules) per bitcoin varies depending on demand for bitcoin and barrier to entry for bitcoin mining
05:17 <@fenn> also i don't know if anyone is keeping track of historical energy costs for mining
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05:18 < kanzure> also varies based on location.... lots of super cheap electricity in china during the summer.
05:18 <@fenn> no
05:18 <@fenn> the cost per joule is the same everywhere
05:18 <@fenn> er, the joule per bitcoin rate
05:19 < chris_99> doesn't that depend on the btc hardware?
05:19 <@fenn> huh why is electricity cheap in the summer?
05:19 <@fenn> nobody has air conditioners?
05:19 < chris_99> heh
05:19 < kanzure> one of the large chinese miners mentioned in http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/2016-july-bitcoin-developers-miners-meeting/cali2016/ that they build a new mining farm when electricity prices shift with the seasons in china
05:19 < kanzure> see around "Cost structure for mining farms in US and China"
05:22 <@fenn> can you not just have shipping containers full of miners and bypass the fire safety stuff becuase "it's a trailer not a building"
05:23 <@fenn> maybe someone should stir up a fever about a bitcoin gap
05:23 <@fenn> senator we're losing the race for control of bitcoin to china
05:23 < kanzure> bitfury has been selling shipping containers of immerssion cooled mining equipment
05:24 <@fenn> is that really necessary
05:24 < kanzure> http://bitfury.com/products#container-datacenter
05:25 <@fenn> "in the past few years, the risk involved in a mining investment are high"   this is probably the single biggest reason a utility company would not use mining as an energy sink
05:27 <@fenn> anyway i'd imagine 3M Novec immersion cooling liquid isn't cheap when you start talking about many cubic meters of it
05:28 < kanzure> actually it might be just liquid cooled not immersion cooled, sorry
05:28 <@fenn> i remember seeing vats of electronics in a clear liquid
05:28 < kanzure> bitfury is crazy but perhaps not that crazy
05:28 <@fenn> "Bitfury's proprietary immersion cooling systems, using 3M Novec solution."
05:29 <@fenn> surprised they don't have a picture on that page
05:29 < kanzure> alright, so it is indeed immersion cooling. loooolz.
05:29 <@fenn> like, if you have awesome hardware to show off, why put a bunch of stupid clip art on your product page?
05:29 <@fenn> wtf
05:30 <@fenn> also i dont get why they're all "datacenter ready" when it doesn't need that much bandwidth
05:31 <@fenn> i want "middle of nowhere ready"
05:31 <@fenn> i mean, not really, i don't want any of this crap
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05:38 <@fenn> http://datacenterfrontier.com/immersion-cooling-bitcoin/
05:57 < kanzure> "i mean, not really, i don't want any of this crap" fenn comes to his senses
05:58 < kanzure> now if you'll excuse me, i have important internet business to attend to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVj0ZTS4WF4
06:00 < chris_99> haha
06:09 < cluckj> that is more important
06:38 < kanzure> "Targeted intracellular voltage recordings from dendritic spines using quantum-dot-coated nanopipettes" http://www.nature.com/nnano/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nnano.2016.268.html ( https://twitter.com/DKeithClimate/status/808408579673911300 )
06:38 < kanzure> r... no.
06:38 < kanzure> i meant https://twitter.com/BrainiacCostas/status/808529663442063361
06:39 < kanzure> "Dendritic spines are the primary site of excitatory synaptic input onto neurons, and are biochemically isolated from the parent dendritic shaft by their thin neck. However, due to the lack of direct electrical recordings from spines, the influence that the neck resistance has on synaptic transmission, and the extent to which spines compartmentalize voltage, specifically excitatory postsynapti...
06:39 < kanzure> ...c potentials, albeit critical, remains controversial. Here, we use quantum-dot-coated nanopipette electrodes (tip diameters ~15-30 nm) to establish the first intracellular recordings from targeted spine heads under two-photon visualization. Using simultaneous somato-spine electrical recordings, we find that back propagating action potentials fully invade spines, that excitatory postsynap...
06:39 < kanzure> ...tic potentials are large in the spine head (mean 26 mV) but are strongly attenuated at the soma (0.5-1 mV) and that the estimated neck resistance (mean 420 M?) is large enough to generate significant voltage compartmentalization. Nanopipettes can thus be used to electrically probe biological nanostructures."
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06:43 < kanzure> important science propaganda http://c.o0bg.com/rf/image_960w/Boston/2011-2020/2016/12/08/BostonGlobe.com/Ideas/Images/1211rahulforweb.jpg
06:45 <@fenn> is there a nice material like carbon fiber that is homogenous and isotropic?
06:46 <@fenn> if i just wick epoxy into carbon fiber felt does it turn into bleck or is it still reasonably strong?
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06:49 <@fenn> you can get felt in 1 inch thickness
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07:35 <@fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Twisted_Ground_in_Hellas.jpg
07:39 <@fenn> "Much of the surface in Noachis quadrangle shows a scalloped topography where the disappearance of ground ice has left depressions. The first piece of human technology to land on Mars landed (crashed) in the Noachis quadrangle. The Soviet's Mars 2 crashed at 44.2?S 313.2?W. It weighed about one ton. The automated craft attempted to land in a giant dust storm. To make conditions even worse, this
07:39 <@fenn> area also has many dust devils."
07:53 < cluckj> http://ecsa.citizen-science.net/sites/default/files/ecsa_ten_principles_of_citizen_science.pdf
07:53 < cluckj> .title
07:53 < yoleaux> cluckj: Sorry, that doesn't appear to be an HTML page.
07:53 < kanzure> is this always the case? "Permanent gene therapy using viruses cannot be repeatedly administered without the immune system clearing and responding to a virus"
07:54 < cluckj> super academic view of citizen science; the only kind of remuneration that counts is "authorship credit" I guess :\
07:54 <@fenn> no, for example HIV
07:54 < cluckj> needs more "fuck you, pay me"
07:55 <@fenn> i believe that's known as professional science
07:55 < cluckj> ^
07:56 <@fenn> there's a long tradition of amateur science, going all the way back
07:56 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV7MDhqNyXE
07:56 < yoleaux> Bitfury-?? ???? ?????? ?? ???????? ???-?? ??????? - YouTube
07:56 < cluckj> when engaging with "amateurs," remember that your professional cycles of credit don't mean shit to people who aren't professionals
07:57  * fenn squints
07:57 < cluckj> what :P
07:57 <@fenn> dream text
07:57 < cluckj> I think my unicode is broken
07:58 <@fenn> is it urdu?
07:59 < cluckj> lol
07:59 < cluckj> "I've included your observation on the trello board"
07:59 <@fenn> mongolian?
07:59 < kanzure> and some pictures from 3M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78lHV7ow9rM
08:00 < kanzure> http://investors.3m.com/news/press-release-details/2015/3M-Novec-7100-Fluid-Used-in-Worlds-Largest-Two-Phase-Immersion-Cooling-Project/default.aspx
08:01 <@fenn> georgian
08:02 < cluckj> time to find that trello board so I can ensure my credit, because authorship is meaningful for me as a professional scientist....
08:03 <@fenn> welp i guess i got my answer to "why arent ex soviet states running entire nuclear reactors to mine bitcoin"
08:06 <@fenn> cluckj: what is the point of documents like that?
08:06 < cluckj> to tell "professionals" how to "ethically" engage with citizen scientists
08:07 < cluckj> but that one in particular feels like professional hand-wringing
08:07 <@fenn> "data sharing may occur during or after the project, unless there are security or privacy concerns that prevent this"
08:07 <@fenn> so in other words, "do whatever you have been doing"
08:08 < cluckj> ^
08:08 < cluckj> yeah
08:08 <@fenn> but why does anyone even need to be told this stuff
08:08 < kanzure> they don't; the authors get credit for writing this even if it's pointless.
08:08 < cluckj> I would love for them to let me into the actual conversation because I have been talking about how badly professionals engage with "amateurs" for a really long time
08:09 < cluckj> and have actually talked with "amateurs" :\
08:09 <@fenn> what's blocking you?
08:09 < cluckj> no real/stable academic job yet, and no academic publications to reference
08:10 <@fenn> you could make a bunch of bullshit PDFs like this one
08:10 <@fenn> form a LLC in delaware, "first virtual citizen science association"
08:10 < cluckj> haha
08:12 < cluckj> my response to the "I added it on the trello board" was "Thanks? I hope I got credit, since that is a meaningful remuneration for me as a professional scientist :)"
08:12 < cluckj> I'd love to work on a project like that, but only if I get paid for it
08:13 < cluckj> oh are you fucking kidding me...
08:13 < cluckj> "of course! check it out - you can now add active participation in #citsciapp workshop to your CV ;)"
08:14 < cluckj> yet another reason for my not participating in this stuff
08:14 < kanzure> this is all very confusing, can't we simply murder all them?
08:15 < cluckj> because murder is mostly illegal
08:15 < kanzure> you only get 5 years
08:16  * kanzure yawns
08:16 < cluckj> that's not too bad
08:16 < cluckj> I could write a bunch of irrelevant professional publications in that time
08:16 < kanzure> talking with kent in a few minutes about homologous recombination things
08:18 < kanzure> musics https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u556gwYhwnQ&t=1m
08:19 < cluckj> it's taking all my will to not reply with "I'm afraid that if I put all my perfunctory participation in citizen science projects, I won't have any room for the dissertation I wrote on citizen science"
08:22 < cluckj> blech
08:23 < cluckj> I guess another reason for not participating in stuff like that is "I am an asshole"
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08:27 < cluckj> :\
08:30 < kanzure> do you know any programming?
08:31 < TMA> cluckj: since when is being an asshole an obstacle to participation? [if it were an obstacle, you'd no longer be a genuine asshole]
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08:33 < cluckj> kanzure not any that's useful; I took C++ about 10 years ago
08:33 < cluckj> TMA because I have trouble not calling out senior members of fields on their garbage...
08:34 < cluckj> (apparently)
08:35 < TMA> cluckj: therefore you are not an asshole -- you are a nice person [which is perhaps not helpful, because senior members of anything _need_ to be called on their garbage occasionally]
08:36 < cluckj> lol, thanks
08:37 < TMA> that is extremelly important after immortality -- the usual strategy -- wait until the senior figure dies to let the field make another step -- will cease to work
08:37 < cluckj> I wonder how many citizen science participants are at this particular conference
08:37 < cluckj> I'm guessing it's a pretty low number
08:38 < kanzure> why does science have anything to do with citizensihp or statism. i don't understand.
08:39 < TMA> kanzure: "citizen" is an euphemism for "outsider"
08:39 < cluckj> ^
08:39 < kanzure> ah so you're a xenophobe
08:39 < cluckj> it's a euphemism for "amateur" that is only marginally better and less dismissive
08:40 < kanzure> it's pretty weird to talk about non-institutional efforts by classifying them as a member of an institute (the state)
08:40  * TMA always remembers, how the king of France was titled "citizen Capet" priot to his execution
08:40 < cluckj> right?
08:40 < TMA> *prior
08:41 < kanzure> more musics https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQjove0nzss
08:41 < cluckj> I was at a conference on DIY citizenship in like 2009, and it was weird then at the beginning of it
08:42 < cluckj> it
08:43 < cluckj> it's using a "you are performing a public good, as it is your duty as a citizen, by participating in scientific research"
08:44 < cluckj> not "we are going to pay you for your help," but "it's your civic duty to do work for us for free"
08:46 < cluckj> my whole deal is "your 'non-professional' participants are really para-professionals and you should at the very least treat them that way, if not as equals"
08:46 < TMA> that sword cuts both ways
08:47 < cluckj> yeah? it obscures "professionals" getting paid for doing research -- they don't do it for free out of civic duty like "citizen science" suggests amateurs should be doing it
08:47 < TMA> if participating in scientific research is a civic duty for citizens, it is for professional scientists (unless the scientist is not a citizen, which is not the usual case)
08:47 < cluckj> yeah
08:48 < cluckj> pros get paid for it, in addition to whatever "civic duty" it is
08:50 < TMA> maybe even moreso - the pros are "more capable" of providing the good, therefore they have "bigger duty" (each citizen should participate according to his ability)
08:51 < cluckj> haha
08:51 < cluckj> but I don't want to work for free!!
08:52 < cluckj> I don't think it's a good idea to compel people to do science out of civic duty (while some folks at the top are financially profiting from it)
08:52 < TMA> cluckj: I suggest that (as a pro) you should pay for your work (if amateurs should do it for free, the pros should do it for a fee)
08:53 < kanzure> none of the above is related to diybio as far as i can tell. i don't know what you guys are talking about.
08:53 < cluckj> haha
08:53 < kanzure> people can do "science" on their own, and you don't have to pay them for that privilege
08:53 < kanzure> they probably want to be left alone unless they ask for your thoughts/assistance/resources
08:53 < cluckj> yes
08:54 <@fenn> yeah the focus shouldn't be on "pay me" rather "let me access this stuff that is impossible to get without institutional privilege"
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08:54 <@fenn> or just leave
08:54 <@fenn> whatever
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08:54 < cluckj> oops, toddler closed xchat
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08:55 <@fenn> the focus shouldn't be on "pay me" but rather "let me access this stuff that is impossible to get without institutional privilege"
08:55 < cluckj> thanks
08:55 < cluckj> I agree, there's different kinds of remuneration/compensation
08:56 <@fenn> by stuff i mean reagents, organisms, data
08:56 < cluckj> the question that pros need to be asking the "amateurs" that participate in their projects is "what kind of compensation that I can provide is meaningful to you?"
08:56 < cluckj> not, like that pdf suggests "give them authorship credit"
08:56 < cluckj> so yeah, institutional resources, equipment, authorship, cash, raw data, etc.
08:57 <@fenn> i dunno, "gravitas"?
08:57 < kanzure> "participate in their projects" wtf are you talking about
08:57 <@fenn> like, if i participate with one professor it doesn't automatically grant me access to all the data i want
08:57 <@fenn> i mean one professor doesn't have all the data
08:58 <@fenn> but they could get it for me with their gravitas
08:58 < cluckj> kanzure we're talking about a subset of "citizen science" that uses non-professional participation as a means to do the legwork of research
08:58 < kanzure> fenn: i think cluckj is talking about the thing where a professor sets up a project that preys on bored non-scientists, like to look through images or something.
08:58 < cluckj> kanzure, yes
08:58 < kanzure> fenn: whereas you and i are talking about doing actual work and then asking a professor for help
08:58 < kanzure> so in other words, totally unrelated
08:58 <@fenn> that's not science, that's organic image processing
08:58 < kanzure> yes, well, blame cluckj
08:59 <@fenn> if schoolteachers want to introduce kids to science by making them sort through heaps of astronomical data, well, ok but don't expect author credit
09:00 <@fenn> i expect this methodology will soon be obsolete anyway
09:02 < cluckj> most of what professionals are talking about in citizen science is professional-led projects, not amateur-led ones
09:03 < kanzure> alright, well they deserve to all die because that's utterly irrelevant and boring
09:04 < cluckj> ....yes
09:04 < cluckj> now I think we're on the same page :)
09:05 < kanzure> why not just let them own that word then? it's not like people doing actual work care about "citizen science".
09:05 <@fenn> it always struck me as a bullshit phrase
09:05 <@fenn> like "maker movement"
09:05 < kanzure> aka "O'reilly subscribers"
09:05 < cluckj> yep ^
09:05 < cluckj> aka "venture capitalists looking to score"
09:06 < kanzure> aka "o'reilly alpha ventures"
09:06 < kanzure> this is where they claim they are not the strategic investment arm of o'reilly media: http://oatv.com/not.html
09:08 < cluckj> I'd prefer (to talk/write about) the kind of research that is led by "amateurs" and draws on professionals in a resource or advisory capacity
09:08 < cluckj> like what a lot of diybio does
09:09 < cluckj> and I don't like the whole "citizen science" thing because it's exploitative garbage
09:09 < kanzure> nah, lots of people are bored out of their minds, if they want to look through 1 trillion petabytes of garbage, let them
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09:10 < cluckj> haha
09:10 < cluckj> but they could be looking through amateur-collected data instead
09:11 < kanzure> data is not the problem for amateurs so far, it's mostly reagents and equipment and materials
09:11 < cluckj> I agree
09:12 < cluckj> so getting paid to do grunt work by pros (or compensated in materials) might be a good strategy for amateurs
09:12 < cluckj> except the pros are all like "CITIZEN SCIENCE, DO IT FOR FREE BECAUSE UR CITIZENS!!!"
09:12 < chris_99> haha
09:13 <@fenn> how about "answer my fucking question because you're paid with taxpayer money"
09:13 < cluckj> ya that too
09:13 < chris_99> i prefer the idea of an Independent scientist
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09:18 < cluckj> idk if that can exist given current material conditions
09:19 < chris_99> unless you can find a rich sponsor maybe
09:19 < cluckj> that's not really independent :P
09:19 < kanzure> speak for yourself
09:19 < cluckj> lol
09:20 < cluckj> we can't all be mysteriously wealthy :P
09:20 < chris_99> haha
09:21 < kanzure> mysteriously...
09:22 < cluckj> hahaha, got access to the board for all the good that can do...
09:22 < cluckj> it's mysterious to me
09:23 < cluckj> but I'm okay with that
09:23 < kanzure> mostly income from programming-related consulting
09:25 < cluckj> that's independent-ish
09:29 < cluckj> bbl, need to take the offspring to the playground
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09:33 < kghosh> Similar to the famous hackaton where you get contributions for free, with copyright assignment to the organizers because,  hey, we gave you some sodas and wifi.
09:34 < cluckj> "you got a raffle ticket for this chromebook"
09:35 < chris_99> eek kghosh, not heard of that kind of thing before
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10:08 < kanzure> hrmph
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10:17 < nmz787_w1> fenn: interestingly I saw a 3M product showcase and that fluid was mentioned... it was hundreds of dollars per liter, I can't remember exactly
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10:38 < nmz787_w1> thanks fenn, I'll take a look at those two... being sold in the laxative aisle tells me for supplementation I should probably recommend him to start out at a lower than recommended dose. Any specific ramp-up methods you found to work?
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10:44 < nmz787_w1> if i connect to a TCP/IP socket, then try with another machine/program to connect to the same socket, will I get a 'connection refused' response for the second machine/program?
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11:39 < chris_99> nmz787_w1, seems so, i just tried with netcat as the server, and netcat -vvv as 2 clients
11:39 < chris_99> and got "localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1] 10000 (ndmp): Connection refused"
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12:12 < nmz787_w1> chris_99: thanks
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13:10 < chris_99> just found this which seems kind of useful - http://3dprintingpricecheck.com/
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14:46 < kanzure> "Stratospheric solar geoengineering without ozone loss" http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2016/12/07/1615572113.abstract
14:46 < kanzure> "with many risks. Injection of sulfuric acid into the stratosphere, for example, would damage the ozone layer. Injection of calcite (or limestone) particles rather than sulfuric acid could counter ozone loss by neutralizing acids resulting from anthropogenic emissions, acids that contribute to the chemical cycles that destroy stratospheric ozone. Calcite aerosol geoengineering may cool the pla...
14:46 < kanzure> ...net while simultaneously repairing the ozone layer."
14:47 < kanzure> "Injecting sulfate aerosol into the stratosphere, the most frequently analyzed proposal for solar geoengineering, may reduce some climate risks, but it would also entail new risks, including ozone loss and heating of the lower tropical stratosphere, which, in turn, would increase water vapor concentration causing additional ozone loss and surface warming. We propose a method for stratospheric ...
14:47 < kanzure> ...aerosol climate modification that uses a solid aerosol composed of alkaline metal salts that will convert hydrogen halides and nitric and sulfuric acids into stable salts to enable stratospheric geoengineering while reducing or reversing ozone depletion. Rather than minimizing reactive effects by reducing surface area using high refractive index materials, this method tailors the chemical reac...
14:47 < kanzure> ...tivity. Specifically, we calculate that injection of calcite (CaCO3) aerosol particles might reduce net radiative forcing while simultaneously increasing column ozone toward its preanthropogenic baseline. A radiative forcing of -1 W?m-2, for example, might be achieved with a simultaneous 3.8% increase in column ozone using 2.1 Tg?y-1 of 275-nm radius calcite aerosol. Moreover, the ra...
14:47 < kanzure> ...diative heating of the lower stratosphere would be roughly 10-fold less than if that same radiative forcing had been produced using sulfate aerosol. Although solar geoengineering cannot substitute for emissions cuts, it may supplement them by reducing some of the risks of climate change. Further research on this and similar methods could lead to reductions in risks and improved efficacy of sol...
14:47 < kanzure> ...ar geoengineering methods."
14:50 < kanzure> ( https://twitter.com/DKeithClimate/status/808408579673911300 )
14:51 < kanzure> "And how do we undo it when we discover we don't like the side effects?" "More geoengineering!" - hacker news :D
14:53 < kanzure> pop sci version http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2016/12/mitigating-the-risk-of-geoengineering/
14:58 < kanzure> .wik space sunshade
14:58 < yoleaux> "A space sunshade or sunshield is a parasol that diverts or otherwise reduces some of a star's radiation, preventing them from hitting a spacecraft or planet and thereby reducing its insolation, which results in reduced heating. Light can be diverted by different methods." -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_sunshade
14:58 < kanzure> aerosol seems easier to deploy than a parasol
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15:17 < adlai> insolation is a horribly similar word to insulation
15:19 < cluckj> insufflation too
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15:44 < kanzure> siRNA-loaded exosomes in mouse blood stream to deliver things to mouse brain http://2015.igem.org/Team:NJU-China
15:51 < kanzure> Dramsi, S. and Cossart, P. (2002) Listeriolysin O: a genuine cytolysin optimized for an intracellular parasite. J Cell Biol. 2002 Mar 18; 156(6): 943-946.
15:51 < kanzure> Wiedemann A1, Linder S, Grassl G, Albert M, Autenrieth I, Aepfelbacher M. (2001) Yersinia enterocolitica invasin triggers phagocytosis via beta1 integrins, CDC42Hs and WASp in macrophages. Cell Microbiol. 2001 Oct;3(10):693-702.
15:51 < kanzure> http://2015.igem.org/Team:SPSingapore/Invasin
15:51 < kanzure> "The Invasin protein from Yersinia is a outer surface protein that induces phagocytosis of the pathogenic Yersinia by mammalian cells in a beta integrin dependent manner(Wiedemann et al., 2001). Whereas the Listerolysin O cytolysin of Listeria moncytogenes is a well documented cytolysin, which allows for lysis of the endosome vacuole by the pathogen after entry into a mammalian cell (Dramsi & ...
15:52 < kanzure> ...Cossart, 2002). This facilitates endosomal escape of the bacteria. When these two [proteins are coupled together, they can confer non-pathogenic bacteria with suitable features to serve as a drug delivery vector to the cytoplasm."
15:59 < kanzure> activation of CRISPR/Cas9-based system in the presence of cancer and specific promoters, activation of suicide genes http://2015.igem.org/Team:BGU_Israel
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16:09 < justanotheruser> https://arxiv.org/abs/1612.03770
16:09 < justanotheruser> .title
16:09 < yoleaux> [1612.03770] Neurogenesis Deep Learning
16:14 < kanzure> "We mined data from protein database and found a protein candidate, SR protein (serine/arginine splicing factor) with fire retardant properties. [...] We demonstrated the prototype to DLuB Fire Retardant Paint Inc. and plan to transfer the technology to KraigLabs, a Spider Silk Technology Company using genetically modified silkworm to produce fire retardant fabrics." http://2015.igem.org/Team:...
16:14 < kanzure> ...Mingdao/Project
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16:19 < justanotheruser> your client cuts off links
16:19 < justanotheruser> s/off/at/
16:21 < kanzure> yea i know :(
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17:00 < kanzure> cell-free protein matrix with a functionalized surface to target specific nutrients in the gastrointestinal tract, to remove nutrients from the human gut http://2015.igem.org/Team:Marburg
17:04 < Fausta> where does the nick kanzure come from
17:04 < kanzure> http://2015.igem.org/Team:SDU-Denmark/Tour10 "Therefore we propose an alternative to antibodies; peptide aptamers - produced in Escherichia coli (E. coli). The variable loop of the peptide aptamer is generated through a random nucleotide library and held together by an optimized, enzymatic inactive version of human Thioredoxin (hTrx) used as a scaffold protein. We are using the bacterial two...
17:04 < kanzure> ...-hybrid system to generate and, at the same time, screen for peptide aptamers with desired properties."
17:04 < kanzure> Fausta: i made it up in like 2003.  however, three weeks ago someone pointed out to me that 'kanzuru' is a japanese word.
17:05 < Fausta> must be a past-life memory
17:09 < kanzure> clickable outer membrane biosensors (COMBs): an aptamer-based system where the proteins feature loops protruding from the bacterial outer membrane, and intracellular C-termini http://2015.igem.org/Team:TU_Eindhoven/Project/Design
17:13 < Fausta> what are you discussing
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17:21 < jcorgan> figure out how to insert those into existing human neurons and couple to G-proteins and boom--the ultimate designer drug ligand
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17:27 < kanzure> "Through coupling the Cre expression to the sensor we can thereby permanently write the sensor state of a given time point into the DNA of a system." http://2015.igem.org/Team:Tuebingen/Description
17:31 < kanzure> Fausta: i am reviewing some old igem projects, i keep notes here-- http://diyhpl.us/wiki/dna/projects/#igem-2013
17:32 < kanzure> Fausta: unfortunately i haven't completed 2015 yet or 2016. there's a few hundred teams each year, so there's a lot of content to internalize.
17:32 < Fausta> igem?
17:33 < kanzure> "International Genetically Engineered Machine competition"
17:33 < kanzure> .wik International Genetically Engineered Machine
17:33 < yoleaux> "The International Genetically Engineered Machine (iGEM) competition is a worldwide synthetic biology competition that was initially aimed at undergraduate university students, but has since expanded to include divisions for high school students, entrepreneurs, and community laboratories, as well as 'overgraduates'." -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Genetically_Engineered_Machine
17:36 < Fausta> by machine do you mean in the sense that a protein is a machine
17:36 < kanzure> all biology is machine-stuff
17:36 < Fausta> or does it have to have some kind of mechanical device
17:37 < kanzure> all biology is mechanical
17:37 < Fausta> well it depends on the level you are discussin
17:38 < kanzure> anyway i'm completing this section at the moment http://diyhpl.us/wiki/dna/projects/#igem-2015
17:38 < Fausta> actually I have a question about "biohacking" etc
17:38 < Fausta> it seems that unlike computer programming/equipment/radios etc
17:39 < Fausta> doing biotech requires a relatively huge infrastructure, like a million dollar lab, and also very specialized knowledge you can't learn on your own
17:39 < Fausta> I am curious as to how this subject lends itself to tinkering in the basement type approach
17:39 < kanzure> nah you don't need a million bucks, mostly $1k-$10k these days
17:39 < kanzure> well usualy a basement costs more than $10k so most basement dwellers have $10k :P
17:39 < Fausta> lol
17:40 < kanzure> dna is one of the big bottlenecks for doing anything interesting
17:40 < kanzure> without the ability to write lots of custom dna very cheaply, you're stuck
17:40 < kanzure> hence, here's a project for building a DNA synthesizer http://diyhpl.us/wiki/dna/synthesis/notes/
17:40 < Fausta> so are people studying textbooks on cell and molecular bio on their own
17:40 < Fausta> then placing their own personal orders to fisher etc
17:41 < kanzure> besides hplusroadmap, there's an online community called "diybio" https://groups.google.com/group/diybio you might have heard of us http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/faq/news/
17:57 < cluckj> there's collective labs too
17:58 < kanzure> no, that's the people's popular front, not the people's front
17:58 < kanzure> </montyjoke.webp>
17:58 < cluckj> hah
18:01 < cluckj> lots of diy biologists have some kind of credential or expertise they draw on in their work, so it's not exactly noobs in basements
18:01 < cluckj> maybe new to biology, but not new to learning stuff
18:01 < Fausta> also couldn't you well infect yourself with some dangerous stuff
18:02 < kanzure> infections happen all the time, if that's your concern then you should become a hypochondriac
18:02 < cluckj> nobody is working with anything really dangerous
18:02 < cluckj> nobody that I know of, anyway
18:03 < cluckj> safety is kind of "a thing" for diy biologists
18:03 < kanzure> millions of people are infected daily by random environmental crap. investigation of this is not going to bump that up; it's already at a huge rate of infection just naturally.  if anything our ability to defend against infections may increase.
18:06 < cluckj> kanzure, http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/pdfplus/10.1086/688697
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18:07 < kanzure> .title
18:07 < kanzure> yoleaux!
18:07 < yoleaux> kanzure!
18:08 < cluckj> From Internet Farming To Weapons Of The Geek
18:08 < cluckj> it's a pre-print of biella's stuff on hackers
18:08 < kanzure> ehhh this sounds like politics. nuke it with fire.
18:09 < kanzure> http://2015.igem.org/Team:Cork_Ireland "Our project is a novel bacterial method of DNA detection. We've developed a customisable, linearised, double stranded plasmid with two sticky overhangs. When the sticky overhangs come into contact with a target sequence, the binding of the DNA sequence to the overhangs circularises the plasmid. The circularised plasmid is then transformed into competent ...
18:09 < cluckj> well....yeah
18:09 < kanzure> ...e. coli cells. Bacterial growth of green fluorescent colonies indicates a positive result, confirming presence of complementary DNA target sequence. This system could act as a cheap alternative to digital and real time PCR, as target DNA fragments are amplified in living cells without use of a costly PCR machine."
18:10 < cluckj> I mean yeah it's politics, no don't burn it
18:11 < kanzure> dCas9 as a synthetic transcription factor to activate/deactivate transcription of genomic targets http://2015.igem.org/Team:EPF_Lausanne/Project/Description
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18:24 < kanzure> synthetic probiotics to produce and release neurotransmitters in the gut http://2015.igem.org/Team:UCL/Effectors
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18:24 < jcluck> that is pretty cool
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18:25 < jcluck> I hope they'll turn it into mind-control yogurt
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18:29 < jcluck> the tl;dr for part of biella's article is that hacker ethos (craftiness, anti-authoritarianism, and fellowship around "doing things") combined with state and corporate hostility towards them has led to political mobilization in hacker communities
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18:33 < cluckj> it's a pretty good article, but not really your thing :P
18:34 < Fausta> I think Kurzweil is endangering his life with his supplement regime
18:35 < Fausta> if any one of these many many extreme things he is doing is bad...
18:41 < __mz_o> Fausta: im on a quest to learn that specialized knowledge i can learn on my own, and acquire a decent lab (or at least the equipment)
18:41 < __mz_o> and i know many others here have
18:42 < Fausta> you can pm
18:42 < Fausta> sorry wrong window
18:42 < __mz_o> i impulse bought a dna synthesizer thats sitting in my downstairs xP
18:42 < kanzure> ebowden: have you been holding out on us? "pineal gland is not protected by blood brain barrier"
18:42 < cluckj> lol, that's quite the impulse buy
18:42 < __mz_o> is that true? lol
18:43 < kanzure> most broken dna synthesizers are fairly cheap
18:43 < cluckj> I was assuming it worked...
18:43 < Fausta> it's called smoking cigs
18:44 < Fausta> that would be a broken-dna synthesizer
18:44 < __mz_o> kanzure: it turns on and has the software catridge so we'll see xP
18:45 < __mz_o> i have a nitrous/co2 tank im gonna get filled with argon and get one or two reagents to start testing the fluid pumps
18:45 < __mz_o> probably in jan
18:46 < cluckj> nice
18:47 < __mz_o> i dont wanna keep it on too long without pressure cuz according to the manual that may burn out the vacuum pumps or actuator
18:51 < kanzure> can you dump the ROM at some point?
18:51 < kanzure> is that something you're familiar with
18:52 < kanzure> JTAG stuff
18:52 < kanzure> etc
18:56 < __mz_o> hrm i can get a serial to usb
18:57 < __mz_o> all id need is a pinout right?
18:58 < kanzure> __mz_o: example, http://bitlog.it/re/old-school-eprom-firmware-dumping/
18:58 < __mz_o> i havent turned it on without the catridge but it seems it wont work without it
18:58 < __mz_o> are you speaking about the instrument rom or the software catridge?
19:00 < kanzure> instrument rom
19:00 < kanzure> software cartridge also sounds interesting :P
19:01 < __mz_o> yea id thought it was a purification catridge from the listing but i thought thatd be silly to include
19:01 < __mz_o> *listing title
19:04 < __mz_o> kanzure: i wrote down in the book of mz_o get you your rom fix
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19:05 < mz_o> do you plan on reverse engineering it? or rewriting another unit?
19:06 < cluckj> synthesizer warez
19:06 < kanzure> yeah i'll reverse engineer it sure
19:06 < kanzure> space moss for mars http://2015.igem.org/Team:UNIK_Copenhagen/Description
19:06 < mz_o> so cyberpunk cluckj
19:12 < kanzure> modified PACE system for continuous phage-assisted evolution http://2015.igem.org/Team:TU_Dresden/Project
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19:45 < kanzure> https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/5i08sl/you_spent_110_on_a_keyboard_whats_so_great_abo/
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20:28 < kanzure> https://www.quantamagazine.org/20161213-teeth-may-reveal-a-multi-day-biological-clock/
20:29 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=49abde68 Bryan Bishop: another bitcoin wishlist item >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/bitcoin/somewhat-open-problems-draft/
20:29 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=fdf70bbb Bryan Bishop: more igem projects from 2015 >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/dna/projects/
20:29 < kanzure> yashgaroth: i updated this section, http://diyhpl.us/wiki/dna/projects/#igem-2015
20:35 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13171883
20:35 < yoleaux> Neurogenesis Deep Learning | Hacker News
20:35 < yashgaroth> some decent ones in there
20:36 < kanzure> the endocytosis stuff looks p. cool and useful
20:42 < yashgaroth> mhm, I'm surprised there's not more microbiome-related projects at igem, since most of the organisms are GRAS and there's potential therapeutic benefit
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20:42 < yashgaroth> versus the usual 'make e.coli make a useful industrial product that isn't a protein' x500 every year
20:44 < yashgaroth> and never works, oh look someone's copying the 'propane from e.coli!!' that the MIT spinoff failed to do, along with every other bacterial biofuel company
20:45 < kanzure> we should probably write up igem project suggestions, and then convince igem teams to look at our suggestions
20:45 < kanzure> because there's no way they are reviewing previous projects on their own
20:46 < kanzure> and maybe we can convince them to look into some particularly useful topics
20:46 < jcorgan> there was a paper on modified yeast that produced morphine, they published all the steps except the final one.
20:47 < yashgaroth> and the yield was so low that no one who actually read it cared
20:48 < jcorgan> yield improvement is just optimization :)
20:48 < yashgaroth> seems like a waste when you can grow poppies
20:49 < yashgaroth> "ok we have a gram of morphine in this bioreactor, now to quickly and cheaply separate it from the kilo of yeast cells"
20:49 < jcorgan> well, sure, until someone figures out a 100x or 1000x improvement and the next thing you know there are morphine microbrew pubs in every city
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20:51 < yashgaroth> yeah I'll just keep buying heroin off the street
20:54 < jcorgan> that does seem to be the go to substitute these days
20:55 < kanzure> damn lazy kids these days
20:55 < jcorgan> it is amazing what people will inject into their veins
20:58 < jcorgan> an enterprising pharma company will figure out how to use those synthetic membrane receptors kanzure mentioned and develop customized injectable receptors *and* ligands and will own the market
21:00 < jcorgan> except the synthetic receptors will undergo endocytosis on a predictable schedule requiring a subscription for keeping them populated
21:01 < jcorgan> are you willing to cede this advancement of human pharmacology to greedy corporations? one must get out ahead of this and research and publish in the open.
21:02 < jcorgan> just sayin'
21:04 < jcorgan> OpenSmack(tm)
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21:10 < superkuh> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQjF8ir4SKs , re: modified yeast for arbitrary small molecules.
21:12 < superkuh> (fiction)
21:13 < superkuh> From the same people that did the Beard-ome video.
21:25 < jcorgan> that was pretty awesome, thanks
21:25 < jcorgan> the chinese scientist's final comment was the best part
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21:34 < nmz787_w> damnit, these 'whistle/hum music into the mic and the song title is returned' programs suck compared to my dad's intelligence for that
21:44 < kanzure> .title
21:44 < yoleaux> compound74 - YouTube
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