--- Log opened Sat Jun 24 00:00:30 2017
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06:14 < fenn> holy crap i take a nap and transaction fees are $4? how is that even possible?
06:14 < fenn> is someone just dumping millions of dollars into spam?
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06:49 < fenn> not sure i'm reading this graph right, seems to say the average bitcoin transaction value is $800 million per block
06:49 < fenn> why did the total transaction value double in may?
06:52 < fenn> hm maybe it's $800 million per day
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07:08 < fenn> blockchain.info/stats don't make sense either; like why is miner's revenue going up but only 15% of that is from transaction fees (supposedly)
07:09 < fenn> and the numbers don't add up
07:10 < fenn> maybe half of these statistics are bullshit but it still doesn't answer the general question of what happened
07:14 < kanzure> https://bitcoinfees.21.co/
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07:14 < kanzure> so one of the confounding factors here is that some wallet software does bad fee estimation
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07:15 < fenn> yes this is roughly the same story, i calculate $1.80 in transaction fees with their 226 byte average transaction
07:15 < kanzure> yeah it's gone down a lot
07:15 < kanzure> i was about to pay 400 sat/byte a few weeks ago. i decided to wait instead.
07:15 < fenn> other sources say transactions are 600 bytes
07:15 < kanzure> well transaction sizes depend on what you are spending-- if you have only one input, your transaction will be smaller.
07:18 < kanzure> if you want to play around with transaction construction more carefully, you can either use the "listunspent" rpc call on bitcoind, or in electrum you can use "utxos = wallet.get_utxos()"
07:19 < kanzure> pip3 install python-bitcoinlib and then: from bitcoin.core import *; tx = CMutableTransaction.deserialize(x("raw transaction bytes go here")) and you can do things like len(tx.serialize())
07:19 < kanzure> CMutableTransaction([list of CMutableTxIn], [list of CMutableTxOut])
07:20 < fenn> sure but i dont think transactions have changed very much in the past month or two
07:20 < kanzure> https://github.com/petertodd/python-bitcoinlib/blob/2e4d51a482a4331d91de9bae2ab7be56229e664a/examples/spend-p2pkh-txout.py
07:21 < kanzure> fenn, your question is why did the fee rate increase? because competition to get into each block. and also bad fee estimation software that might sometimes over-estimate the competition-- creating a runaway competition effect.
07:21 < fenn> ok that works as an explanation
07:23 < kanzure> "like why is miner's revenue going up but only 15% of that is from transaction fees" because the bitcoin market price is $2700
07:24 < fenn> so the blocks are finally filling up for the first time ever, and broken wallet software doesn't know how to bid fees correctly
07:24 < kanzure> eh, some wallets are better than others. bitcoin core has a 'smart fee estimate' now.
07:25 < kanzure> bram cohen did some work on fee estimation, https://medium.com/@bramcohen/how-wallets-can-handle-transaction-fees-ff5d020d14fb
07:25 < kanzure> Taek (in here) did a recent proposal, https://gist.github.com/DavidVorick/ba17fb7db50b9270d1c2131ff425422b
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07:27 < kanzure> and morcos did some interesting work on this front https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10199
07:29 < fenn> do you think fees will ever go down? (barring any radical data reduction improvements like segwit)
07:31 < kanzure> segwit and lightning network will help with general usage and fees, but i personally have very dire predictions that fees will be >$100 at some point.
07:31 < kanzure> other bitcoin developers seem less enthusiastic about my $100 prediction and they would like that to not happen if possible
07:31 < fenn> meh
07:31 < kanzure> OTOH i sort of think that $100 makes sense; you have limited capacity and a lot of demand, wtf do they expect to happen.
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07:32 < kanzure> also the fees are supposed to make up for the lack of block subsidy in the distant future
07:32 < kanzure> so over time the total fee revenue has to start replacing these massive 50% reductions in block subsidy every 4 years
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07:40 < kanzure> author of that second link was same as author who is building out asics now, from link yesterday https://www.reddit.com/r/siacoin/comments/6j1gyg/obelisks_sia_asics_full_details/
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08:30 < streety> I take it the transaction fee is independent of the size of the transaction. Is that correct? Will bitcoin become unusable for any transactions <$1k?
08:30 < streety> Is that expected? Planned?
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08:53 < kanzure> streety: fee is based on transaction size; it's priced in satoshi per byte.
08:57 < kanzure> streety: if you mean *amount* yes it's independent; so you are incentivized to spend high value inputs (utxos) and use fewer inputs if possible.
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09:04 < streety> thanks, that makes sense. Does seem like it would be a massive disincentive for most of the payments we make day to day (<$100)
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10:54 < nmz787> kanzure: asics you say? from the prev conversation on that company name (Sia) I thought they were just a cloud storage company
10:58 < kanzure> nmz787: there's a blockchain involved. it's complicated.
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--- Log closed Sun Jun 25 00:00:31 2017