--- Log opened Tue Jul 11 00:00:46 2017
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03:35 < streety> nmz787: the pain neuron tomography by fMRI. Not as attractive with a hurt back. Hope it's shortlived
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04:51 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/DeepMindAI/status/884398642886565892
04:51 < yoleaux> Three new papers on learning flexible motor skills in simulated environments https://deepmind.com/blog/producing-flexible-behaviours-simulated-environments/ https://video.twimg.com/tweet_video/DEYDuokXgAAvRHn.mp4 (@DeepMindAI)
04:51 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/Miles_Brundage/status/884230465007345664
04:51 < yoleaux> arXiv papers, July 10 - "Emergence of Locomotion Behaviours in Rich Environments," Heess et al., DeepMind: https://arxiv.org/abs/1707.02286 (@Miles_Brundage)
04:51 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/RJVneurotech/status/884266599653539840
04:51 < yoleaux> Great work by @DeanKleissas and @JHUAPL team on The Boss (petascale neuroscience DB) for MICrONS program @IARPAnews https://youtu.be/806a3x2s0CY (@RJVneurotech)
04:52 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=806a3x2s0CY&feature=youtu.be
04:52 < yoleaux> The Boss: A Petascale DB for Large-Scale Neuroscience Powered by Serverless Advanced Technologies - YouTube
04:52 < danfox> ooh
04:52 < danfox> shiny
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07:21 < kanzure> hmph
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07:52 < archels_> this is genius  http://irc.cs.sdu.edu.cn/3dshape/
07:52 < archels_> .title
07:53 < yoleaux> archels_: Sorry, that command (.title) took too long to process.
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07:55 < chris_99> archels_, yeah just been looking at that
07:55 < chris_99> it's awesome
07:55 < chris_99> did you watch the vid
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08:26 < archels_> it hasn't loaded for me yet, their website is being hammered
08:28 < kanzure> http://irc.cs.sdu.edu.cn/3dshape/files/dip_final.mp4
08:28 < kanzure> ah wait. self-hosted.
08:29 < archels_> https://youtu.be/yHvyPnkuAiw
08:29 < archels_> .title
08:29 < yoleaux> Dip Transform for 3D Shape Reconstruction (SIGGRAPH 2017) - YouTube
08:35 < chris_99> i thought it was the milk scanning method approach, but it's far more sophisticated
08:35 < archels_> what's the milk scanning approach?
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08:35 < chris_99> http://www.instructables.com/id/GotMesh-the-Most-Cheap-and-Simplistic-3D-Scanner/
08:35 < chris_99> you just look at the contours of milk
08:36 < chris_99> with different levels of milk
08:37 < kanzure> ...
08:40 < chris_99> ....
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09:03 < kanzure> MPEG crispr-cas9 patent pool update http://www.mpegla.com/Lists/MPEG%20LA%20News%20List/Attachments/106/CRISPRPrsRls2017-07-10.pdf
09:04 < maaku> wait MPEG is going to manage the cripr-cas9 patents? this can only end terribly
09:04 < kanzure> yes :(
09:04 < kanzure> maaku: i'm part of the human genome project-write intellectual property workgroup. but it's managed by someone from MPEG-LA.
09:04 < danfox> Crap...
09:05 < kanzure> https://www.wsj.com/articles/crispr-patent-holders-move-toward-easing-access-to-gene-editing-technology-1499527983
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09:05 < danfox> Heard of DRM? Next it'll be GRM... on human genes.
09:05 < maaku> wtf? ffs
09:05 < maaku> that isn't a clear conflict of interest?
09:05 < danfox> IKR
09:06 < kanzure> maaku: dude i'm trying my best but these guys are biologists they don't know anything about the evils of MPEG. it's ridiculous.
09:06 < kanzure> they proposed DRM for chromosomes as part of the project
09:06 < kanzure> to prevent "dual use"
09:06 < maaku> I suppose EFF et al feel this is outside their domain?
09:06 < danfox> Er, no, I'd say it's in the EFF's remit
09:07 < danfox> since bioinformatics tools are used to do this
09:08 < danfox> kanzure, try and find the bioinformaticians on the team
09:08 < danfox> They might talk sense into the biologists
09:09 < maaku> have you talked to mindspillagemindspillageOCOCOCOCOCOCOCOCOCOCOCOCOCOCOCOCOCOC>
09:09 < maaku> um.. some sort of lag fail there, sorry
09:10 < maaku> I would think mindspillage would at least know who to talk to to get engagement from the ant-software-patents crowd
09:12 < danfox> The Open Rights Group would be good folks to talk to too
09:13 < kanzure> well it's worth a shot; for my part i am at least trying to let them know about other licensing schemes.
09:13 < danfox> Yep, positive alternatives are a good idea
09:13 < kanzure> cas9 is already well in progress on that front, not much to do i think; if they already don't see the prblems then i'm not sure "EFF" will convine them (biologists don't care about EFF).
09:13 < kanzure> for hgp-write my goal is to make sure MPEG isn't recommended
09:14 < danfox> Like I said, get the bioinformaticians to bridge the EFF-bio gap
09:14 < kanzure> maaku: i was thinking of inviting mindspillage to that hgp-write workgroup but not sure how to get her name on the list yet; there's an unscheduled call this week that she might want to listen on.
09:15 < kanzure> some context:
09:15 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/hgp-write/
09:15 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/HGP-write-Fact-Sheet.pdf
09:15 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/Synthetic%20human%20genome%20project%20hgp-write%20draft%20timeline%20-%202016.pdf
09:15 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/The%20human%20genome%20project%20-%20write,%20hgp-write%20-%202016.pdf
09:16 < maaku> kanzure: alas I'm in asia right now or I'd bring it up with her in person
09:16 < kanzure> ok i'll just show her logs then.
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09:26 < kanzure> ok sent.
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09:33 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/kanzure/status/884812813042147328
09:33 < yoleaux> Having MPEG manage the CRISPR-Cas9 patents is a bad idea. Give everyone a free license, no MPEG required. https://www.wsj.com/articles/crispr-patent-holders-move-toward-easing-access-to-gene-editing-technology-1499527983 (@kanzure)
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09:42 < danfox> https://www.siliconrepublic.com/machines/biggest-single-memory-computer-ever A computer which currently has 160TB of RAM - and is scalable to 4096YB RAM - that's 4 of whatever the next SI unit is above YottaBytes.
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09:43 < emeraldgreen> danfox cache coherence at scale ?
09:43 < yoleaux> 8 Jul 2017 03:09Z <maaku> emeraldgreen: thanks, I'll keep you in the loop
09:44 < emeraldgreen> maaku cool
09:44 < danfox> No idea
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10:34 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14744636
10:34 < yoleaux> Transit Detection of a Starshade at the Inner Lagrange Point of an Exoplanet | Hacker News
10:34 < kanzure> .title https://arxiv.org/abs/1705.01285
10:34 < yoleaux> [1705.01285] Transit Detection of a "Starshade" at the Inner Lagrange Point of an Exoplanet
10:34 < kanzure> "Here I was hoping that Kepler had found a star shade."
10:35 < kanzure> "Paper doesn't address what measures the aliens might use to disguise any obvious signature of the starshade."
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14:31 < kanzure> blort
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16:47 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52FVkHlCh7Y
16:47 < yoleaux> Bram Cohen: Data Structures for Scaling Bitcoin - YouTube
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18:08 < maaku> kanzure: what a misleading title
18:09 < kanzure> probably doing phone call with the MPEG person either tomorrow or on thursday
18:11 < kanzure> talking points plz
18:13 < kanzure> i was thinking blah blah blah, creative commons, open-source licensing, libre licensing, patent pools, patent non aggression agreements, defensive patent license, biobricks public agreement ( https://biobricks.org/bpa/ ), addgene tech transfer agreement stuff https://www.addgene.org/techtransfer/ , the virtues of public domain and commons, the evils of WIPO, ...
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18:15 < maaku> kanzure: these guys are biologists used to a pharmaceutical model where patents generally work and is how they get their exits, right? you might not be very successful starting the conversation at FOSS principles
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18:16 < maaku> maybe focus on the evils of MPEG-LA in particular, how they turned the codec patents into a rent-seeking monopoly that hindered innovation
18:16 < kanzure> she works for MPEG, i think the crispr pool might even be her project.
18:16 < maaku> but I'm not a biologist or in that industry to take that advice with a yuge heap of salt.
18:17 < maaku> oh wonderful
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18:17 < kanzure> i thik a lot of the patent stuff is cargo culting---- it's not really the investigators that get licensed the patents anyway. so it ends up being the school. it's the standard model. and asking them to change would make it more difficult for them to collaborate with more labs.
18:17 < kanzure> or rather, the school is the owner of the patent, and then they license it out as 'tech transfer'.
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18:18 < kanzure> but from the perspective of the human genome project, it ain't so great if these patents require nongratis licenses.... because it decreases the ability of random people to just start working with you.
18:19 < maaku> Maybe have a conversation about a gene-DPL?
18:19 < kanzure> yes i think i will focus mostly on defensive licensing only, and not licensing for royalty revenue streams.
18:19 < maaku> https://defensivepatentlicense.org/
18:19 < maaku> https://blockstream.com/about/patent_faq/
18:20 < maaku> (links I know you already have, but for the log)
18:21 < maaku> Oh, and the IPA. Although it's probably too late for CRISPR-Cas9 stuff. Those agreements probably need to be in place before the patent was assigned to the university.
18:21 < kanzure> it's sort of a scheme where, "well research is of course OK, but once you go commercial, then you start paying the fees". but that's stupid, it means that you have to be committed to the patent system from the beginning.
18:22 < kanzure> instead, the participants should subscribe to a defensive patent scheme.
18:22 < kanzure> from their perspective this still sounds impractical because "patents are how you protect investors!!111one" or whatever.
18:22 < maaku> I think a strong argument could be made for Blockstream's patent approach applied to gene patents. Note that Blockstream dual licenses if you don't want or can't work with the terms of the DPL.
18:22 < kanzure> the idea of patents protecting an investment is absurd; investments are inherently risky.
18:23 < maaku> And a lot of pharmaceutical companies probably can't work with the DPL, so they'd have to license the patent pool.
18:23 < kanzure> ... but some parts of biotech are basically built on patent revenue streams in weird ways. so to them it seems like a business model.
18:24 < danfox> It's all got to go someday
18:24 < danfox> Paradigms change
18:24 < kanzure> i'm not really aware of a convincing argument to give to a biotech person who believes that patents are necessary to ensure the success of their investments.
18:26 < danfox> If it helps, my company only employs defensive publications and open patents
18:26 < danfox> But then we are tiny
18:26 < maaku> kanzure: depends on how they see patents involved with ensuring the success of their investment
18:26 < maaku> danfox: defensive publication doesn't work. see the two links I just posted for a better model
18:27 < danfox> Yes, thanks for those links
18:27 < maaku> and while I don't want to speak for her, we have a top notch FOSS lawyer who constructed this and I suspect would be interested in seeing it apply to other fields like biotech
18:27 < maaku> we can put you in contact if you feel it needs customization
18:29 < kanzure> meanwhile on bitcoin-dev: "we need a central plan!!!" omg -_-
18:29 < danfox> At the moment I have the 'problem' that I already released, at the advice of a patent lawyer, a defensive publication with CC-0 licensing.
18:29 < kanzure> danfox: patents are a landmine; i suggest aborting existence entirely.
18:29 < danfox> So really the DPL can't be retroactively applied to that
18:29 < danfox> kanzure: Nah thanks
18:30 < kanzure> no really, patents are such a headache. nobody should have to suffer from this crap :/.
18:30 < danfox> Oh I know that
18:30 < maaku> danfox: defensive publication doesn't preclude filing your own patent, unless the time as elapsed
18:30 < danfox> I mean no I won't stop existing
18:30 < danfox> Too busy
18:30 < kanzure> maaku: realistically, USPTO only searches their own database and some other things, they don't do exhaustive search.
18:31 < kanzure> maaku: and during litigation, if the defense shows reason to believe that you defensively published prior art or whatever that might invalidate your patent, i don't actually know if we have seen litigation like this before.
18:31 < maaku> (and, actually, with current patent law all a defensive publication really does in practice is let someone else file the patent)
18:31 < kanzure> righto.
18:31 < danfox> Really?
18:31 < danfox> Maybe it depends which country you are in
18:32 < maaku> I'm talking about US specifically, but it's the same model most of the world uses too.
18:32 < danfox> Well I'm in Ireland.
18:32 < danfox> And from the UK.
18:32 < maaku> Ireland is first to file, right? So you're just as screwed.
18:33 < kanzure> maaku: i guess i need to pitch defensive licensing as more valuable overall; with a network of biotech you can produce more valuable projects overall. so it's an ecosystem of tech. and investors should prefer it because it lowers the transaction cost of innovation within that community.  if they are worried about losing out on profit, then you could perhaps include, in the defensive patent lic...
18:33 < maaku> Although your court system might be slightly better than ours.
18:33 < kanzure> ...ensing, a right of first refusal with regards to investment. does that sound against the spirit of the defensive schemes?
18:33 < danfox> The US can see my prior art. Everyone can.
18:34 < maaku> danfox: doesn't matter. As kanzure says in a first to file jurisdiction anyone can take your tech description and patent it. The US patent office (and to my knowledge, most other patent offices) only really check against other patents and internal databases, and maybe if you're lucky a couple of extracted search terms for determining prior art.
18:34 < kanzure> would it make sense to have a "right of first refusal" (for investment) included in a fork of a defensive patent licensing scheme/pool?  i guess it would make it difficult for established companies to participate.
18:35 < kanzure> USPTO employees are not oracles. they are scratching their heads just like the rest of us. they have a huge backlog that they have to work through.
18:35 < maaku> Techhnically the patent would be invalid, but it would cost more than it is worth to challenge it in court ($50k - $100k minimum)
18:36 < danfox> maaku, the licensing costs of the tech for potentially millions of future constructors and users of the device in question would be far greater than that.
18:36 < danfox> (combined I mean)
18:36 < kanzure> with "right of first refusal" i am trying to satisfy the requirement that investors not lose out on future ventures that use the technology.   but this doesn't work because a company that wants to use the patent would just create a subsidiary, get some investors, but not share any of the revenue with the subsidiary.  and if you do anything else, you're making a revenue sharing agreement... whi...
18:36 < maaku> I have specifically been burned by this in the past.. I defensively published something, kept working on it, and was told by someone else that a patent was issued on the work, with a filing date a few weeks after I published it :\
18:36 < kanzure> ...ch i was trying to avoid.
18:37 < maaku> danfox: then expect the person with the fraudulent patent to be willing to pay that much to keep it :P
18:37 < danfox> maaku, don't they have a No Win No Fee patent lawyer anywhere there?
18:37 < danfox> Or is that not a thing?
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18:38 < maaku> danfox: Ah, no. That is one thing (of many) your legal system has better than ours.
18:38 < danfox> I'm not sure if we have them either
18:39 < danfox> The only use of No Win No Fee I've seen is in injury compensation lawyer adverts
18:39 < maaku> Our system encourages patent trolls. Everyone pays their own expenses. Maybe if you're lucky a judgement with predjudice could recoup legal costs.
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18:40 < danfox> Well, thanks for the warning but with the cat out of the bag, I would need to make substantial improvements to the design and re-issue it under a DPL.
18:40 < maaku> danfox: if you want to stick to defensive publishing, consider at least filing provisional patents or whatever the equivalent is in your jurisdiction.
18:40 < danfox> Yeah but, they'd be invalidated by my own prior art
18:40 < maaku> In the US that means paying a $100 fee or something of that order of magnitude, and submitting a bunch of documentation regarding what is going to be covered by the patent.
18:40 < danfox> it's CC-0 licensed
18:41 < danfox> I don't have even $100 to send anywhere just now
18:41 < maaku> That way it is put into the patent office's database so patent examiners see it if someone else tries to steal the patent. You never actually follow through with a real filing. (We've done this numerous times)
18:41 < danfox> I am broke
18:41 < danfox> This is not a good time to tell me to do things that cost money
18:42 < maaku> Right, I understand. Just trying to be helpful. Remember this conversation the next time you invent something (and have some money).
18:43 < danfox> yeah.
18:43 < maaku> kanzure: can you expand on the right of first refusal?
18:44 < kanzure> well maybe some sort of pro rata agreement
18:45 < kanzure> i mean the whole thing just collapses to negotiating on joint venture stake (or whatever) which is practically the same as negotiating licensing fees
18:45 < kanzure> so it doesn't help.
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18:54 < kanzure> http://www.mpegla.com/main/pid/CRISPR/Terms.aspx
18:55 < kanzure> why aren't the #xiph people being helpful about this?
18:55 < kanzure> i have asked a few times and i just get crickets.
18:55 < kanzure> just wanted a conversation yeesh
18:56 < danfox> They might all be AFK?
18:57 < kanzure> i asked months ago.
18:58 < danfox> To be fair, IRC is kind of an outdated platform to those who think Slack, Telegram and Discord are cool.
18:59 < danfox> That's probably where they all are.
18:59 < kanzure> xiph is not the kind of people that would abandon irc.
18:59 < kanzure> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiph.Org_Foundation
18:59 < danfox> *shrugs*
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19:04 < maaku> kanzure: simple patent fix: require a litigating entity to prove to the satisfaction of the court their status as a 'practicing entity' with regard to the patent
19:04 < kanzure> http://www.mpegla.com/main/PID/CRISPR/Documents/CRISPR-Cas9%20Reference%20Model%2024%20Apr%202017.pdf
19:04 < kanzure> maaku: biotech investors would still pledge their loyalty to patents i think.
19:05 < maaku> kanzure: Oh sorry I'd moved off that topic. I mean just as a fix for patent trolls.
19:06 < maaku> There's already a legal concept of a practicing vs non-practicing entity with respect to a patent. Make patents only enforceable if you are a practicing entity.
19:06 < danfox> hear hear
19:06 < danfox> Start a petition for that
19:07 < kanzure> a petition..?
19:07 < maaku> Maybe EFF would be willing to advocate for that.
19:07 < danfox> As in, one large numbers of people can sign to request patent law is reformed
19:07 < danfox> And join the Pirate Party in your area
19:08 < maaku> No pirate parties over here :(
19:08 < danfox> Then start one?
19:08 < kanzure> falkvinge is a flaming moron anyway.
19:08 < maaku> No third parties over here :(
19:08 < danfox> But seriously, there are Pirate Parties in the US
19:08 < danfox> look them up
19:08 < kanzure> after talking about bitcoin with falkvinge, i'm convinced the pirate party has no moral center. the guy is incapable of technical comprehension.
19:08 < maaku> Their influence is 0. Not approximately zero, but exactly zero.
19:09 < maaku> Our system is designed to be blues vs. greens with no room for competing teams.
19:09 < kanzure> reds vs blues
19:09 < kanzure> are you color blind
19:09 < danfox> There was a time when Labour's influence was zero. Then they got unions into the picture.
19:09 < kanzure> alright this is getting too political
19:09 < kanzure> for this channel
19:09 < danfox> yeah
19:09 < danfox> true
19:09 < danfox> sorry
19:10 < kanzure> 1) politics should be destroyed 2) point 1 is not a political statement
19:10 < maaku> kanzure: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/blue-versus-green-rocking-the-byzantine-empire-113325928/
19:10 < danfox> Oh alright Mr Smartypants making a historical reference most of us won't get XD
19:11 < danfox> That said, I make plenty of other references people won't get
19:11 < danfox> so meh
19:11 < danfox> goodnight
19:12 < kanzure> is that another reference
19:13 < danfox> Only to the fact that it is 3:13am here.
19:15 < kanzure> sounds incomprehensible to me
19:20 < maaku> kanzure: when is your call with the hgw person?
19:21 < kanzure> tied up in last minute scheduling -_-
19:21 < kanzure> tomorrow afternoon (EDT) or thursday morning (EDT).
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20:58 < kanzure> probably not tomorrow. since they haven't got back on scheduling with multiple other people. so it would be sort of impossible to do last minute scheduling for literally tomorrow.
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22:12 < ebowden> Who is falkvinge?
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--- Log closed Wed Jul 12 00:00:47 2017