--- Log opened Sun Jul 16 00:00:50 2017
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03:52 < kanzure> yes.
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04:38 < Guest48894> Anyone home?
04:39 < emeraldgreen> I am
04:39 < Guest48894> How goes it?
04:41 < kanzure> .title https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments/6nifbp/i_am_frank_drake_creator_of_the_drake_equation?sort=confidence
04:41 < yoleaux> I am Frank Drake, creator of the Drake Equation and I helped design the Pioneer Plaque and Golden Record with Carl Sagan. AMA : space
04:41 < emeraldgreen> Fine, I guess, but I have much to learn
04:51 < Guest48894> Don't we all, emeraldgreen?
04:53 < emeraldgreen> nah, some people are ok with what they have. Also neuroplasticity degrades with age
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05:13 < chris_99> https://www.recode.net/2017/7/15/15976744/elon-musk-artificial-intelligence-regulations-ai is there much point in trying to regulate it?
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05:15 < fenn> if government agencies follow the regulations, maybe..
05:15 < emeraldgreen> chris_99 depends on your affilation/ideology. For people invested in status quo - there is a point, they want to preserve their supremacy.
05:18 < chris_99> i would have thought it'd be hard to regulate something which doesn't truly exist at the moment?
05:18 < emeraldgreen> large scale machine learning exists and is used to nudge billions of humans' attention (see: facebook, instagram, google ads)
05:19 < chris_99> but he's talking about AGI, no?
05:19 < emeraldgreen> nah he talked about attention manipulation as well
05:19 < chris_99> ah ok
05:20 < fenn> having a clearly stated rule that says "don't make an AI that will take over the world" would at least stop some people from doing that intentionally
05:20 < chris_99> fenn, i guess, but not all country would adhere to that obviously
05:21 < fenn> this is the culture that regulation would have some effect on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nrol-39.jpg
05:22 < chris_99> heh, i've never seen that before
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05:24 < fenn> i'm sure it was a real "are we the baddies?" moment for some people
05:24 < chris_99> haha
05:25 < emeraldgreen> To come to conclusion regarding the issue of AI regulation one should weigh benefits (more controlled ai development, less risks (either catastrophic or related to social destabilization)) and risks (stagnation in ai research, loss of tremendous opportunity to up living standards around the globe)
05:26 < fenn> i just want THEM to follow their own rules before they start laying rules on US
05:26 < chris_99> heh yeah
05:26 < emeraldgreen> If we take "golden billion"'s (1st world people) POV, it seems rational to regulate AI research to avoid unnecessary risks. 1st world people have nice lifestyles without AI.
05:27 < emeraldgreen> fenn sure
05:27 < emeraldgreen> well, nuclear regulation seems to work well
05:27 < fenn> no, it's ruining the planet
05:27 < fenn> if nuclear weren't so fucking expensive we wouldn't even bother with coal
05:28 < fenn> it's expensive because of the insane regulatory hurdles
05:28 < fenn> it's preventing new and safer designs from being built
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05:29 < emeraldgreen> maybe, though e. leitl has said that to satiate the world's energy needs humanity would need ~3000 - 10000 nuclear reactors, which would (?) give us catastrophic failures pretty often
05:30 < emeraldgreen> > it's preventing new and safer designs from being built
05:30 < emeraldgreen> good point
05:30 < kanzure> we need a militia that specifically protects ai programmers from regulators
05:48 < sachy> kanzure: we need a militia that specifically protects ^.* research$ from from regulations
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06:06 < kanzure> oh did i get it wrong
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06:56 < JayDugger> Don't think so. It'll capture a lot, but it makes the joke.
07:01 < kanzure> not a joke
07:01 < kanzure> these people believe that ai is going to murder them all (and they might be right) but this is fundamentally toxic ("we can't have intelligence running around because it will murder everyone" is essentially an argument against humans existing)
07:02 < JayDugger> I meant the regex.
07:02 < JayDugger> On the other point, you're preaching to the choir.
07:04 < JayDugger> .wik preach to the choir
07:04 < yoleaux> JayDugger: Sorry, that command (.wik) crashed.
07:04 < JayDugger> Pfui.
07:04 < JayDugger> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/preach_to_the_choir
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07:15 < rk[ghost]> kanzure: aye, people are smart enough to realize they are their own problems and if they design an ultimate machine to solve their problems, then they go bye-bye
07:16 < rk[ghost]> instead of thinking, hrm, maybe i should mend my ways and then robots can co-exist with me =P
07:24 < andytoshi> kanzure: are you aware of any times in history when there has been a luddite-like mob reaction to scientific researchers?
07:24 < andytoshi> i agree that the _logical_ consequence of fear of AI is to attack researchers but i'd be surprised if people actually did this. scientists at computer screens don't feel like villians, they'll go after pols or CEOs instead
07:29 < JayDugger> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterling_Hall_bombing
07:30 < JayDugger> Not quite a mob.
07:30 < docl> https://im42group.wordpress.com/2017/06/20/how-far-away-are-we-from-a-14mt-clanking-replicator-architecture/
07:30 < andytoshi> oh, good example JayDugger, thank you
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07:32 < emeraldgreen> >but this is fundamentally toxic ("we can't have intelligence running around because it will murder everyone" is essentially an argument against humans existing)
07:32 < emeraldgreen> Survival of the fittest (wisest) ? Isn't it natural for our own species to subdue other (even intelligent) species to survive?
07:33 < emeraldgreen> For me this regulation debate is mostly about risk of being annihilated by stupid DQN bot that got to ruin infrastructure via TCP/IP vs huge benefits of applying intelligent-ish proto-AIs to life science.
07:35 < emeraldgreen> (realistically, though, products created by AIs applied to life science will be available only to affluent-in-western-sense people, i.e. some 2-5% of global population which does not include me, on the other side these results could be hacked away and copied if they are e.g. small molecule drugs)
07:35 < emeraldgreen> I'm looking forward to what deepmind health, calico, and verily could deliver
07:36 < JayDugger> You're welcome, andytoshi. Keep up the good work.
07:36 < poppingtonic> who's talking about regulation, emeraldgreen?
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07:38 < emeraldgreen> poppingtonic elon musk and ai safety people, for example nick bostrom
07:43 < docl> We need AI safety to guide us to the point where the really good AI get built. Think of those poor AI that might never get built otherwise.
07:48 < TMA> emeraldgreen: I would not consider that a good argument against human existence -- the rampant murderers (that humans are) are held in check by other rampant murderers, which does not hold for AI at least initially
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07:51 < TMA> kanzure: ^
07:52 < TMA> emeraldgreen: sorry, I have overlooked the > quotation mark
07:52 < kanzure> andytoshi: i think singularity insitute-- if they brought their positions to logical conclusions- would advocate for violence against "dangerous ai".
07:54 < kanzure> ... institute.
07:55 < emeraldgreen> What's wrong with violence against a program or a computer (barring very far-mode futuristic scenarios, where a program is a descendant of a human mind)
07:56 < emeraldgreen> isn't it just property damage
07:56 < emeraldgreen> Though on libertarian grounds prop damage is worst thing ever, hmm.
07:56 < JayDugger> Bombing an airliner is only property damage. Those people were just accidental casualties.
07:57 < JayDugger> I don't think that's what you mean, but I think you've too easily assumed one could limit damage.
07:57 < emeraldgreen> I guess when people judge such acts they see these short causal links from bombing to human deaths and conclude it was murder.
07:57 < emeraldgreen> JayDugger hmm ok
07:57 < JayDugger> Which is only a problem at trial.
07:58 < chris_99> i'm confused exactly what they'd regulate wrt AI, like is it really possible to tell good from bad AI
08:00 < emeraldgreen> chris_99 they could make various safety procedures and audits mandatory, like with bio labs
08:00 < emeraldgreen> they could whitelist such research by giving away licenses
08:01 < JayDugger> G-Code, sheesh. (docl's link)
08:01 < TMA> you need threat models to establish such safety procedures and audits, otherwise it is just some red tape that serves no purpose
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08:03 < emeraldgreen> it's not hard to gather a committee of ai safety and infosec people and come to consensus
08:03 < emeraldgreen> I think what's deterring them from this is fear of lowering GDP growth
08:03 < chris_99> but how easy would it be to come up with safety procedures, if you don't know how AGI might work
08:03 < kanzure> you can't really separate human regulation from ai regulation
08:04 < kanzure> essentially this is a form of anti-intellectualism
08:04 < TMA> gathering a committee is easy, getting useful output thereof is _hard_
08:04 < kanzure> (it's literally "anti-intelligence")
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08:05 < emeraldgreen> chris_99 AGi is a computer program that executes on some hardware and has some IO with the outside world, it is obvious that one should make hardware more reliable and heavily police the IO
08:05 < emeraldgreen> There are already talks about how they could regulate it https://www.wired.com/2016/10/president-obama-mit-joi-ito-interview/
08:05 < chris_99> emeraldgreen, hmm, we can't even prevent malware though
08:05 < emeraldgreen> ah, also they are not in a hurry with regulations b/c they fear china outpacing them
08:06 < emeraldgreen> for now there is almost no ai research outside US, Canada, Switzerland, maybe Germany and China
08:08 < emeraldgreen> chris_99 malware is prevented in military, space, high assurance embedded applications, and in some academic environments (also, arguably, in android VM if it wouldn't contain native code)
08:08 < chris_99> in miltary?!
08:08 < chris_99> are you serious
08:08 < kanzure> malware is not prevented in the military. would they tell you if they were infected? that would be a dumb thing to tell people about.
08:08 < emeraldgreen> yup, they have very strict standards
08:08 < emeraldgreen> kanzure hmm we can't be sure, ok
08:09 < kanzure> nsh (in here) is literally standing trial because he is accused of hacking the u.s. military
08:09 < kanzure> http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-suffolk-38006529
08:09 < emeraldgreen> Ah, I meant embedded systems
08:09 < emeraldgreen> ofc network connected systems are much harder to harden
08:09 < chris_99> nsh is lauri love?
08:10 < kanzure> no doxxing
08:10 < kanzure> ... yes.
08:14 < chris_99> sorry just saw the link.  i think the UK extradition treaties seem too lenient with the US from what i understand, especially as the US seems to have considerably harsher sentences afaik
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12:38 < nmz787> sooo, micro/nano scale nuclear reactors anyone? inside organelles?
12:40 < kanzure> how about inside my cell phone
12:41 < kanzure> as a start.
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12:54 < nmz787> kanzure: well presumably biology is cheaper to scale for manufacturing
12:54 < nmz787> but I guess 'as a start'
12:55 < kanzure> the optimization around atp synthase is pretty crazy.
12:57 < kanzure> nuclear reactor wouldn't need to be in an organelle necessarily. just in the cell somewhere.
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12:57 < emeraldgreen> >sooo, micro/nano scale nuclear reactors anyone? inside organelles?
12:57 < emeraldgreen> tritium batteries, plutonium RTGs
12:57 < kanzure> it's interesting that all cells build atp, instead of assuming steady supply of atp. probably because it was too difficult to protect resources against small invaders.
12:58 < kanzure> or s/invaders/uh.. the thing in ecology where you cheat a lot.
12:58 < kanzure> parasites.
12:59 < chris_99> emeraldgreen, i don't think tritium batteries technically are a nuclear battery?
12:59 < TMA> nmz787: i think there is a minimum amount of fissile material needed to sustain fission; this can be reduced by compressing the material but it is still above micro/nano scale by several orders of magnitude
12:59 < chris_99> *nuclear reactor sorry
12:59 < kanzure> TMA: he's just going to propose a nuclear reactor organ instead :)
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13:01 < nmz787> TMA: yeah mean you can't fuse two atoms in isolation?
13:01 < nmz787> also, as kanzure just mentioned re: ATP... cells don't seem to like "sustained" energy production as much as on-demand
13:01 < kanzure> uhh i'm not prepared to comment on that
13:02 < kanzure> what is the difference between on-demand and sustained?
13:02 < nmz787> idk, whatever you mentioned at 12:57
13:02 < kanzure> oh i mean cells build atp instead of exclusively eating atp
13:03 < nmz787> ah
13:03 < kanzure> s/exclusively/exclusively (without building its own)
13:03 < nmz787> I think it has something to do with the ATP being pretty reactive, such that it wouldn't survive very long during transport from the environment (or theft from another organism)
13:04 < nmz787> that could be wrong though
13:04 < emeraldgreen> ^ this
13:05 < TMA> nmz787: you can. in theory. if you give them enough energy to overcome their electomagnetic repulsion and then move them to the right distance from each other
13:06 < nmz787> lol, I found this and now assume TMA is George Gonzalez: https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possible-to-create-a-nano-or-a-micro-nuclear-reactor-which-powers-up-a-phone-or-laptop-for-years
13:06 < nmz787> TMA: just kidding
13:07 < nmz787> TMA: so we just need to find an enzyme that can do this? :D
13:07 < kanzure> mostly i'm still preocuppied with questions about how to reduce biological complexity. for example, meaningfully refactoring anything outside and far away from genes (such as promoters over 200kbp earlier on the molecule).
13:07 < nmz787> find/make
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13:09 < kanzure> if we had really cheap dna synthesis and really cheap sequencing then we could run billions of generations of bacteria and select for an increase in protein-coding gene content, upselect reductions in regions we have marked non-protein coding, and downselect additive mutations to non-coding regions.  unfortunately this might just have a net effect of increasing protein complexity :).
13:11 < kanzure> not happy about my proposal from the other day about linking most/all proteins and organelles to internal wall of the cell membrane. it doesn't quite promise a total reduction in biological complexity.
13:13 < TMA> nmz787: I am not convinced that would be practical to put it mildly. the energies involved somewhat on the high side. I am concerned about the stability of the enzyme.
13:13 < nmz787> on the other hand... why hasn't biology already figured such a reactor out... there is plenty of life in the sea where Uranium and Deuterium exist
13:13 < nmz787> http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/environment/powered-by-crazy/2
13:13 < nmz787> .title
13:13 < yoleaux> Powered by Crazy - IEEE Spectrum
13:13 < nmz787> "In Japan, the Mitsubishi Research Institute has proposed genetically engineering seaweed that will selectively absorb the heavy metal. When the plants are mature, they'll cull them, dry them, and extract the uranium."
13:14 < kanzure> i thought the argument was that the energies involved to start the reaction are unlikely to occur by happenchance
13:14 < nmz787> I guess so... but all sorts of weird shit happens when you're brute forcing the universe
13:15 < nmz787> TMA: so the real issue here is that now you're basically alerting me that the Iron Man power source can't be practical :/
13:15 < kanzure> i think the right way to investigate this would be to do the math on what the required energy would really be, and then estimate whether such an event could feasibly have occurred in the last 4 billion years, and so on. if it is something that would happen once every few hundred years-- you might have a chance. once every 400 billion years- no chance, without you directing the bruteforce attem...
13:15 < nmz787> too small
13:15 < kanzure> ...pts.
13:15 < emeraldgreen> >mostly i'm still preocuppied with questions about how to reduce biological complexity. for example, meaningfully refactoring anything outside and far away from genes (such as promoters over 200kbp earlier on the molecule).
13:15 < emeraldgreen> Craig venter cleaned the genome of his synthetic bacteria. Also yeast project people remove transposons
13:16 < kanzure> yes i'm aware of craig venter
13:16 < kanzure> emeraldgreen: btw there's also this http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/hgp-write/2016-05-10/
13:16 < nmz787> emeraldgreen: but he might not have got rid of that promoter 200 kbp away
13:16 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/hgp-write/2017-05-09/
13:16 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/HGP-write-Fact-Sheet.pdf
13:16 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/Synthetic%20human%20genome%20project%20hgp-write%20draft%20timeline%20-%202016.pdf
13:16 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/The%20human%20genome%20project%20-%20write,%20hgp-write%20-%202016.pdf
13:17 < kanzure> and a reminder to submit proposals http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/hgp-write-pilot-project-proposal-form.pdf
13:17 < emeraldgreen> kanzure I like protocell project, if it succeeds it will be truly minimal organism
13:17 < kanzure> eliminating chunks of dna is okay but there's still a lot of biological complexity (everything is stochastic instead of solid state)
13:19 < kanzure> putting reactors in organelles or microprocessors in other compartments is a good step
13:20 < TMA> nmz787: not practical only given the current technological ability to alter natural laws
13:24 < emeraldgreen> https://www.reddit.com/r/MachineLearning/comments/6nksj0/d_elon_musk_artificial_intelligence_is_the/ good discussion
13:25 < emeraldgreen> kanzure Seems to me that some degree of stochasticity is needed to have lots of potential chemical interactions, to have a smaller system not limited to one reaction per compartment
13:25 < emeraldgreen> Maybe with optimized feedstock, self replicating protocells with minimal numbers of molecule species are possible
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13:36 < casper_> Do someone uses that nootropic? https://twitter.com/Cooler_freenode/status/886666925157253122
13:38 < TMA> nmz787: https://www.quora.com/What-is-theory-concept-behind-the-Miniature-Arc-Reactor-built-by-Tony-Stark/answer/Ryan-Carlyle
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15:12 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZWvK0QYr6o
15:12 < yoleaux> Latest from George Church's Lab at Harvard: Dr. Bobby Dhadwar and James Strole/RAADfest - YouTube
15:12 < kanzure> .to yashgaroth you going to this? http://www.raadfest.com/
15:12 < yoleaux> kanzure: I'll pass your message to yashgaroth.
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17:53 < nmz787> https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/13lzb2/how_strong_would_a_cord_of_dna_be_if_it_was_one/
17:54 < nmz787> "The tensile strength of steel in comparison is ~178kN per inch diameter, meaning DNA is theoretically up to 28 million times stronger when pulled.
17:54 < nmz787> "
17:54 < nmz787> "In other words, it's really hard to tell and I hate you for making me do this."
17:57 < kanzure> what is the tensile strength of hatred?
17:58 < cluckj> pretty high afaik
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--- Log closed Mon Jul 17 00:00:51 2017