--- Log opened Sun Aug 06 00:00:41 2017
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04:10 < kanzure> .title
04:10 < yoleaux> ТАНКОВЫЙ БИАТЛОН 2017/ ИНДИВИДУАЛЬНАЯ ГОНКА/ 9-ый Заезд/ Россия, Сербия, Киргизия - YouTube
04:23 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14938258
04:23 < yoleaux> Why nature prefers hexagons | Hacker News
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09:14 < ybit> oh wow, i didn't know richard lipton was at ga tech
09:15 < ybit> atlanta is looking more and more like the city for me if i'm going to be living in the southern united states
09:39 < fltrz> I know and have often heard that many breeds of cows, bred/selected by humans are virtually unable to give birth without help/intervention from humans, after the many generations of breeding and selecting for characteristics
09:39 < fltrz> but I am unable to confirm or locate a credible citation on the internet?
09:43 < fltrz> hmm appears false according to: https://www.quora.com/How-did-cows-give-birth-before-domestication
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10:01 < kanzure> blort
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10:08 < fltrz> are OSKM naturally expressed?
10:09 < fltrz> if so, why would natural selection not have increased their production to supposedly optimal higher levels? it would seem that aging would be darwinistically selected against
10:12 < fltrz> darwinism is an optimizatin process, and I agree that some day we may be able to one-up natural selection in the optimization process, but I believe this will only happen once we have a very thorough understanding of all reactions
10:13 < yashgaroth> yes, they're expressed in the embryo; reprogramming factors are not some magic bullet and there's a significant risk; aging is not selected against in evolution as long as organisms reproduce
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10:14 < fltrz> i.e. the day we can simulate (not necessarily each and every cell individually, but using scale methods) I am willing to believe we can understand failure modes and fix them, but until then any claim of a handful of 'miracle' genes/proteins/molecules seems bogus IMHO
10:15 < fltrz> yashgaroth: that is exactly how aging is selected against (I think we are in fact agreeing on this point): the longer you live healthily (hence fertile) the more kids you can make
10:16 < yashgaroth> but you take up resources from the next generation, which is deleterious, and prevent continued evolution in sexual reproduction...in classical evolutionary theory, reproduction comes before survival
10:17 < yashgaroth> humans are an exception but we are unique in having a benefit from older generations, via teaching and extended adolescence
10:19 < fltrz> yashgaroth: if the older generation had not aged as much they would still perform functions like defending from other predators etc, so not just education
10:20 < fltrz> if they did not age they would still be able to achieve any ingroup benefit resulting from behaviour/capability, when they no longer are able to provide some of these functions they have by definition aged
10:22 < yashgaroth> try not to ascribe purpose to evolution; all we can say is that this hasn't been selected for strongly enough, over a sufficient timespan
10:22 < fltrz> but I certainly concur that aging can be darwinistically beneficial with environmental change
10:22 < fltrz> where genes must adapt fast enough to the environment
10:23 < yashgaroth> I imagine if you raised a bunch of humans in a closed environment and people with really healthy grandparents got to breed, you could see results in a few hundred thousand years
10:24 < yashgaroth> we must also assume that extended healthy lifespan is biologically easy, which it may not be
10:24 < yashgaroth> I doubt telomeres help much in alzheimer's, for example
10:25 < fltrz> we are in such a closed environment (earth) for longer than hundred thousand years. and really healthy grandparents still got/get to breed
10:25 < kanzure> well, they are claimed to be healthy
10:26 < fltrz> I am referring to the hypothetical few rare "non-aged" grandparents
10:26 < fltrz> to the extent they exist darwinism promotes them
10:26 < kanzure> here are some things to read http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/
10:27 < yashgaroth> a really healthy 120 year old isn't doing much breeding, but if you tell people your grandparent is still running marathons at that age, are you that much more likely to have children
10:28 < kanzure> there's some 80 year old guys running around with newborns. not many.
10:28 < yashgaroth> they tend to be rich rather than extremely long-lived
10:29 < fltrz> a really healthy non-aged 120y old is going to do much breeding, we should only look at the functionality not at their actual age, darwinism does not have access to actual wall clock age
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10:31 < yashgaroth> possibly, but for whatever reason that hasn't happened enough for us all to live that long, so it's a moot point now
10:32 < fltrz> yashgaroth: that could actually be another valid mechanism that slows down darwinism on longevity characteristics: economic pressures dominate longevity pressures
10:32 < yashgaroth> in humans, yes
10:33 < yashgaroth> and, for most of history, the ability to kill competing males
10:33 < fltrz> complete tangent: the other day I was thinking about how perhaps animals are performing labour in some implicit economy, suppose some mineral is more highly concentrated in soil of one forrest
10:34 < fltrz> then a bird eats from some fruit in that forrest, and flies to another forrest, and drops the mineral as fertilizer, animals are spreading resources
10:34 < fltrz> we pay truck drivers to distribute
10:35 < fltrz> the delicious fruit in the second forrest was pay for the bird to transport some fertilizer from *wherever*
10:36 < fltrz> the second forrest may have more of another mineral lacking in the first, so theres a trade between the 2 forrests
10:36 < fltrz> and both pay the transporter
10:37 < yashgaroth> certainly possible, but I don't recommend getting into evolutionary biology because the pay sucks
10:37 < fltrz> im not even in biology at all ;)
10:37 < yashgaroth> good call
10:39 < fltrz> that made me think that human activity dividing up forrests into smaller and smaller islands, so they are less and less connected
10:39 < fltrz> could have the unintentional effect of blocking these unrecognized biosphere "trade routes"
10:39 < yashgaroth> we're fucking the environment far more than that
10:40 < fltrz> yeah
10:40 < kanzure> "A brush fire feedback loop for the ramp-like rise in hominin brain size that began 2.4 million years ago" https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/15a2/d43f6a36353537097e77a4e589ab245b081c.pdf
10:42 < kanzure> (re: islands)
10:42 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/ai/How%20hard%20is%20artificial%20intelligence%3f%20Evolutionary%20arguments%20and%20selection%20effects%20-%20Shulman%20-%20Bostrom.pdf
10:58 < fltrz> Hmm, I need a very specific lamp, but they only ship within the US :( http://www.destinationlighting.com/item/r30-energy-efficient-light-bulb-watts/346884
10:58 < fltrz> I would be willing to send some paypal or other money to include mailing to europe
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12:03 < darsie> fltrz: WTF, 25 lm/W? I have some with 100+ lm/W.
12:04 < darsie> fltrz: Do you have 120 V AC?
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13:09 < fltrz> darsie: I don't have 120V AC, but transformers or inverters can be found
13:10 < fltrz> darsie: my interest is not in their luminous efficiency, but in the entangled nature of the light
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13:27 < nmz787> fltrz: isn't it just a CFL with a current-control in it?
13:29 < nmz787> fltrz: beefalo are a good source of animals that need help (i.e. c-section for birthing)
13:36 < nmz787> that hexagon on Saturn's north pole is pretty interesting
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13:43 < nmz787> "Because of surface tension, a soap film stretching across a loop of wire is pulled flat like the springy membrane of a trampoline. If the wire frame is bent, the film also bends with an elegant contour that automatically tells you the most economical way, in terms of material, to cover over the space enclosed by the frame. That can show an architect how to make a roof for a complicated structure
13:43 < nmz787> using the least amount of material."
13:43 < nmz787> hmm, so there's an interesting problem to model/simulate and try to optimize calculation on (vs nature's time)
13:44 < nmz787> model/simulate/build-an-asic-for
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14:30 < fltrz> nmz787: it's not CFL, CFL's are electric discharges i.e. the low pressure gas is excited and emits for example UV which then stimulates the phosphor
14:31 < fltrz> nmz787: the vu1 is more like a CRT, much stronger vacuum such that the electrons have long mean free path length throughout the bulb, and individually have high energies (multiple keV), they strike the thin aluminum layer on top of the phosphor
14:32 < fltrz> this causes brehmsstralung photons to hit the phosphor which then phosphoresces
14:32 < fltrz> its like a CRT tube without deflection coils and without pixel raster
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14:33 < fltrz> nmz787: on beefalo, I thought the same but could not find any citable reference, the only links I found seem to deny such a dependency
14:35 < fltrz> nmz787: on the usage of physical phenomena themselves to simulate and model say architecture, in the museum under the Sagrada Familia by Gaudi
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14:37 < fltrz> you can view one of hiis models: a model of the church upside down constructed from wires with weights along their length, which result in the shapes of the towers
14:37 < fltrz> in some sense the ideal method of spreading the weight
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14:38 < fltrz> one the ESL lamp, vu1 likes to pretend they invented it, but in fact in the 50s/60s CRT flood lamps were commonly used for stroboscopes, CRTs without deflection coils
14:39 < fltrz> the datasheet for Ferranti CL-60 -> CL-66 mentions they can also be used continuously lit instead of strobed, as long as the maximum mean current is respected
14:51 < fltrz> Gaudi http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=sagrada+familia+gaudi+upside+down
14:52 < fltrz> also http://dataphys.org/list/gaudis-hanging-chain-models/
14:59 < nmz787> fltrz: there is a pic here of a c-section scar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_Blue
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15:03 < fltrz> nmz787: thanks there is indeed also a section describing the parturition problems
15:04 < fltrz> I also read that in Brazil 90% of births is by elective c-section
15:05 < fltrz> could humans grow dependent on c-sections?
15:06 < fltrz> (darwinistically)
15:10 < nmz787> probably, if smaller skeletons are selected for in some lineages
15:11 < nmz787> or somehow larger final gestation size is selected for
15:11 < nmz787> I've never asked a girlfriend how large they were at birth...
15:11 < nmz787> so that one doesn't seem too likely
15:12 < fltrz> I guess theres a reason low waist-to-hip ratio is attractive in women?
15:14 < nmz787> that seems relevant to nutrition history and projections/speculation... with stable/modern food system, maybe less important/influential?
15:14 < nmz787> or at least a relaxation of certain things in the scenario-landscape
15:15 < nmz787> fltrz: has anyone tried stimulating those ESL R30's with magnets for deflection?
15:18 < nmz787> "A friend ordered some and one came broken. There is a screen mesh over the aperture of the electron gun, and a strong magnet in the neck to provide deflection. Couldn't see the cathode, but I'll guess it's either directly heated or starts at a momentarily boosted voltage, otherwise it would take much longer to produce light."
15:18 < nmz787> "Anyway, there is a photo of the lamp's construction here and the electronic circuit here.
15:19 < nmz787> "
15:19 < nmz787> http://www.vu1corporation.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/image002.jpg
15:19 < nmz787> http://www.vu1corporation.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/IMAG3405.jpg
15:20 < fltrz> nmz787: where are you reading this? magnets would somewhat affect the exact light intensity pattern, but not drastically, since there is no focussing coil, if there was a focussing coil and the aperture of cathode & grid was fine enough
15:20 < nmz787> this one is even cooler: http://www.vu1corporation.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/IMG_0349.jpeg
15:20 < nmz787> fltrz: http://www.lighting-gallery.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=119&pos=2&pid=104441#msg311795
15:21 < fltrz> then one could deflect/defocus somewhat the beam (just like you could slightly deflect the electrons in a CRT monitor causing some to end up in a neighbouring phosphor dot, causing weird color shifts
15:22 < nmz787> fltrz: shipping from that website is $10, so that's up to $25 now... I'm not sure how much shipping would be to EU
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15:23 < nmz787> if I got a lightbulb, I'd split the $10 shipping with you
15:24 < fltrz> nmz787: from the destinationlighting.com site, or did you find another distributor?
15:24 < fltrz> if I understand correctly, you're willing to help me get them if you get a lamp as well?
15:26 < fltrz> I might give the money for 3 or 4 lamps and mailing to europe (if we first find out the price for that so I have an idea of the total cost), and you could have one of them
15:27 < fltrz> i'd order multiple, because there are quite some people reporting defective lamps and I have the impression that because of low sales volumes they still have some production problems
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15:30 < fltrz> if I misunderstood what you propose or have alternative ideas let me know
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15:33 < nmz787> fltrz: yeah I was looking at that same distributor
15:33 < fltrz> nmz787: would paypal be good?
15:34 < nmz787> it doesn't list the shipping weight, but does have dimensions
15:34 < nmz787> yeah paypal works
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15:34 < fltrz> "Touching the face of the bulb, you feel the static just like a TV, and it is a heavy lamp, weighing almost 16 oz." from the lamp forum you posted
15:35 < nmz787> ah
15:35 < nmz787> ok
15:35 < nmz787> so at least 1lb with bubble wrap and a box
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15:37 < fltrz> can I PM you so we can exchange email address?
15:37 < fltrz> yah
15:37 < nmz787> mine is my username at gmail.com
15:37 < nmz787> also for paypal
15:41 < nmz787> screens presumably waiting to be attached to the electron beam? http://www.vu1corporation.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/photo-1.jpg
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17:24 < kanzure> hmph
17:24 < nmz787> http://joelgrus.com/2016/05/23/fizz-buzz-in-tensorflow/
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20:27 < ybit> https://github.com/beaumontlab/antonie
20:31 < kanzure> .title
20:31 < kanzure> .botsnack
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--- Log closed Mon Aug 07 00:00:10 2017