--- Log opened Mon Aug 07 00:00:10 2017
--- Day changed Mon Aug 07 2017
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02:03 < kanzure> "When people talk about the Crispr, they often talk about “designer babies.” Researchers who specialize in gene editing are quick to point out that some of the attributes that people seem most fearful will be marketed -- intelligence, beauty, creativity -- are not determined by a single gene or known group of genes."
02:03 < kanzure> wut? beauty seems to have a bunch of easy targets.
02:03 < kanzure> nytimes really is fake news O_O
02:05 < kanzure> "DeepATAC: A deep-learning method to predict regulatory factor binding activity from ATAC-seq signals" http://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/08/06/172767
02:07 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/AGTC_/status/893202464924676096
02:07 < yoleaux> AGTC Announces U.S. FDA Orphan Drug Designation for #GeneTherapy to Treat X-Linked #RetinitisPigmentosa https://goo.gl/mwGfmX $AGTC (@AGTC_)
02:09 < kanzure> https://twitter.com/PDBimagebot
02:09 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/PDBimagebot/status/893509361666064384
02:09 < yoleaux> #HexamerOfTheWeek 'Structural basis for DNA strand separation by..' published in @NAR_Open. Find it at http://PDBe.org/5a9k https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGZiBP2XYAEaIEX.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGZiBgrXcAEGzRV.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGZiBw9XYAAYP7X.jpg (@PDBimagebot)
02:10 < kanzure> open-source motion capture suit https://hackaday.io/project/9266-motiosuit https://twitter.com/hackaday/status/894031165849575424
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02:27 < pasky> so, is the main reason people fear "designer babies" the potential for amplifying social inequality? is anyone trying to fix that problem, perhaps by some political plan?
02:28 < CRM114> James Hughes
02:28 < bluebear_> pasky: there is no much need for it, it's a purely academical problem
02:29 < bluebear_> pasky: you can do lots and lots of shenanigans with an unborn's DNA, and it will sorta work, except for all the cases you didn't take into account, and they will behave randomly
02:30 < bluebear_> pasky: but the *fear* people feel is probably the same as they feel from strong AIs: they think the new people/AIs will destroy the "normal" people who will become pariahs
02:31 < bluebear_> pasky: both fears are both equally remote and equally unfounded
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02:33 < pasky> CRM114: interesting! thanks, that's great; I wish a lot of these mentions of designer babies would go a bit further in this direction, surely noone expects that being prohibited forever
02:34 < pasky> bluebear_: I'm way less pessimistic about human GMO - of course there will be fails along the way
02:35 < bluebear_> pasky: no, no, I'm not pessimistic about human GMO at all; it will work, in most cases, and will - if we allow - do lots of good; many devastating diseases can be stopped this way
02:36 < bluebear_> pasky: just that the fear of GMO-designed "super-humans" is unfounded
02:37  * TMA has no strong feelings one way or the other -- the heat death of the universe seems inevitable anyway
02:37 < bluebear_> TMA: did you read the Heechee quadrilogy? ;-)
02:38 < bluebear_> TMA: *we*, as individuals, will not live long enough to see much of practical GMO (or AI), but the humankind still has chance
02:38 < bluebear_> TMA: in fact, I believe even the heat death can be solved
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03:09 < TMA> bluebear_: I have read that.
03:14 < TMA> I would attribute the fear of GMH to basic human traits like envy. -- Forbidding GMH is akin to forbidding dopping or bribery.
03:21 < bluebear_> TMA: yes, that's also possible (intuitively I'd think envy is not the primary reason, but my intuition is often mistaken)
03:22 < bluebear_> TMA: and I'd also add a possible relic of christianism - "playing God is forbidden"
03:22 < TMA> gaining advantage at random is viewed as venerable, gaining advantage at great cost is considered equitable, but gaining advantage at an acceptable cost is deemed abhorrent
03:26 < TMA> bluebear_: christian god is a quarrelsome, petty, envious god, just like his deolaters [which are reportedly created in his image]*
03:27 < bluebear_> TMA: well, the god was also created by ancient tribal elders, probably bitter and cruel old men, so no wonder here
03:28 < TMA> bluebear_: no wonder, it would make him envious, if humans would do anything traditionaly relegated to his shenanigans
03:28 < bluebear_> TMA: these are all parts of normal human nature; but definitely irrational
03:29 < TMA> *) an alternative hypothesis has it that the god was created by his deolaters
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03:36 < TMA> bluebear_: irrationality is the normal default state for humans. I do infer from observation (both auto and allo) that even those striving for rationality are irrational almost all the time -- up to the point that any attempt to uproot the irrationality serves as just a bed preparation for new irrationality planting.
03:37 < bluebear_> TMA: yes; and that's where the fears from GMO, AIs, and lots of other things stem (primarily the new ones, as with the old ones we are already accustomed with)
03:38 < bluebear_> TMA: that's why humans should probably, from time to time, remind themselves that their fears are mostly unfounded (well, not all, but most of them)
03:39 < TMA> it does not work in practice
03:43  * TMA reminds himself during every "panic attack" [scary quotes because not officially diagnosed; also the "I am going to die. Now!" feeling is absent, though the generally fearful feeling is present]
03:45 < TMA> in any case the amount of perceived fear is unwarranted; reminding myself that the fear is unfounded does not help
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03:58 < bluebear_> TMA: *hug* know that feeling bro
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05:10 < kanzure> "james hughes" is not trying to fix anything.
05:11 < kanzure> pasky: people who believe that designer babies will be only for the elite are the same idiots that think that diybio isn't real.
05:12 < kanzure> they have approximately no credibility.
05:18 < kanzure> coq frontend http://goto.ucsd.edu/peacoq/
05:39 < CRM114> kanzure: he asked about political plans, his were the only ones I can think of off hand
05:41 < kanzure> james hughes is annoying and he has spent more time on politics than actual engineering
05:43 < kanzure> perhaps if he would have spent more time on engineering, all of his bullshit wouldn't be true. instead he actively perpetuate it by refusing to solve hard problems with technology.
05:43 < kanzure> s/true/a possibility
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05:59 < fenn> i'm still unsure whether diybio is real
06:00 < fenn> it would be great if it were
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06:04 < kanzure> i think it would be foolish to recommend only expensive equipment if your politial complaint is "designer babies for wealthy people only".
06:05 < fenn> that's what happens when the complainers come from an academic background
06:05 < fenn> the cognitive dissonance would be too great otherwise
06:08 < kanzure> trying to parse..
06:08 < fenn> if your identity is all tied up in "my voice counts more than yours because i'm from a big expensive institution" then you likely won't think about how the whole system propping you up is shit
06:09 < kanzure> do you mean something like "since i am part of a big institution, i should prefer to not assume that genetic engineering can be cheap" ?
06:09 < fenn> yes
06:10 < cluckj> diybio is pretty real, I seen it.
06:11 < kanzure> "you're biased because you have a phd in it"
06:11 < cluckj> hahaha
06:11 < kanzure> :-)
06:12 < cluckj> feel free to direct those folks at me ;)
06:16 < TMA> cluckj: what is real, in this sense? [as in: is the removal of wood chip from your finder a "diysurgery/diymedicine" or would that need something more advanced to qualify for that name?]
06:17 < TMA> *finger
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06:17 < cluckj> it's a group of people doing what they say they are doing
06:17 < kanzure> there have been many genetic engineeirng projects in the diybio community.
06:17 < cluckj> ^
06:17 < kanzure> finger rocks aren't genetic
06:18 < fenn> has there been even one?
06:18 < cluckj> doing CRISPR in their living rooms
06:18 < fenn> i haven't been keeping up the last few years
06:19 < cluckj> there's been a bunch
06:19 < kanzure> go on
06:22 < cluckj> I wouldn't put the boundary of diybio at "people doing genetic engineering"
06:22 < fenn> lame
06:22 < cluckj> but putting genes in bacteria and yeast, violacein too, the-odin has a crispr kit so whatever example josiah has them doing
06:23 < cluckj> iGEM projects that diybio folks are doing
06:24 < cluckj> whatever random plasmids people are putting in e coli
06:26 < fenn> re: violacein, i found this worrying sentence, "researchers at the University of Alberta who created Genomikon, the organization that now produces these easy-entry level genetic engineering kits"
06:27 < fenn> the synbiobeta page 404's
06:27 < cluckj> how is that a worrying sentence?
06:27 < kanzure> .wik genomikon
06:27 < yoleaux> kanzure: Sorry, I couldn't find article.
06:27 < fenn> because it implies that university researchers did the genetic engineering
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06:28 < kanzure> you've lost me
06:28 < cluckj> they made a kit
06:28 < cluckj> for other people to do the genetic engineering with
06:28 < fenn> yes, and that's good, but it doesn't mean that anyone who follows the instructions is doing genetic engineering
06:28 < fenn> it means they're following instructions
06:28 < kanzure> the kit does not include DNA synthesis?
06:28 < fenn> i doubt it
06:29 < fenn> most university labs don't even have synthesizers
06:30 < cluckj> you can put whatever gene you want into the "blocks" for the kit iirc
06:30 < cluckj> with restriction enzymes
06:30 < kanzure> yes, whatever you want, as long as it is iincluded in the kit.
06:30 < fenn> i'm sure one could put whatever they wanted in a plasmid, but my point is that people aren't doing that
06:30 < fenn> they're following kit instructions
06:31 < fenn> or "optimizing growth conditions" whatever that's supposed to mean
06:31 < cluckj> o_O
06:31 < cluckj> science is largely following instructions in a kit
06:32 < fenn> this is like plugging an arduino into the usb port and saying you're an electronic engineer
06:32 < fenn> even if you compile some code and upload it to the arduino you're still not doing programming
06:32 < cluckj> it's like getting the starter kit from sparkfun and making some gizmo with it
06:33 < fenn> sure, electronic engineers use arduinos, and plug them into usb ports too, but there's quite a bit more to it
06:34 < cluckj> they're not making outlandish claims, "doing genetic engineering" is a procedure that is literally being done by them
06:35 < kanzure> cluckj: are you a computer programmer if you never write new code?
06:35 < cluckj> lol
06:35 < kanzure> you do not have a good objection to fenn's recommendation to put a dna synthesizer in the kit
06:36 < cluckj> oh is that what I am objecting to? I don't want to object to that at all
06:36 < fenn> even if you put a dna synthesizer in the kit, i bet people would just print the example dna
06:37 < kanzure> fenn: meh, the point s that it's available and present.  i don't mind if most people don't actually use the kit.
06:37 < cluckj> iirc the kit just uses common sticky ends to allow for genes to be put together easily
06:37 < cluckj> you can use restriction enzymes to make your own "blocks"
06:38 < cluckj> I don't think many people are meaning "I'm a molecular biologist" or "I am a geneticist" when they say "I'm doing genetic engineering" out of a kit
06:39 < cluckj> but seriously, DNA synthesis should be in all these kits
06:39 < fenn> it's not currently economical to operate a dna synthesizer for one-offs
06:40 < fenn> i don't think synthesizing the dna is a requirement for diybio at the moment
06:40 < cluckj> I don't think so either :P
06:40 < fenn> it might get harder to obtain dna in the future though
06:41 < cluckj> which is why cheap dna synthesis is important and should be in all the kits
06:41 < kanzure> i think fenn is concerned that everyone will get their hypermagic self-replicators but they will just use them like xmas trees-- as props.
06:42 < cluckj> that's fine with me, the same thing happened with computers and provides the means for people to do cool shit at a very low entry cost
06:42 < fenn> except people actually program their computers outside of university settings
06:43 < fenn> what i'm asking is whether biohackers do too
06:43 < fenn> so far i haven't seen any evidence
06:43 < cluckj> people actually do genetic engineering outside of university settings
06:43 < fenn> josiah zayner is the best example i've seen so far, but even he has a degree in biophysics
06:43 < kanzure> what about that NY jerk that everyone hates
06:44 < fenn> bre pettis :P
06:44 < kanzure> no no no, the diybio one.
06:44 < kanzure> with bare feet.
06:44 < kanzure> s something c something?
06:47 < cluckj> hm
06:49 < cluckj> I don't know
06:52 < kanzure> there are two of them i think. one of them is the plant guy.
06:53 < fenn> there's also this project but it's unclear whether they've gotten anywhere: https://realvegancheese.org/
06:54 < cluckj> openinsulin made at least proinsulin
06:55 < fenn> i hope they use A2 casein gene
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07:01 < fenn> i can't connect to openinsulin.org
07:01 < fenn> what did they actually do?
07:02 < cluckj> https://experiment.com/projects/open-insulin/labnotes
07:12 < kanzure> human music https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm41dHucxmM
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07:19 < fenn> still reading 'insulin is hard'
07:20 < cluckj> they are trying to figure out if they were able to insert proinsulin
07:21 < cluckj> the smelly moss project did "new" genetic engineering too
07:21 < cluckj> which is what I think you're trying to say, that in order to be doing (genetic engineering) science it needs to be creating new things?
07:24 < cluckj> in that case, genspace's alaska barcode project counts because they're creating new knowledge by doing sequencing on plants that do not have sequencing data on them, and the same with their gowanus canal project
07:24 < kanzure> i doubt his requirement is re: scientific knowledge generation.
07:24 < fenn> yes, it needs to be new, or at least new as far as they know
07:25 < cluckj> kanzure there are sciences that are definitely science and not experiment-based :P
07:26 < kanzure> hm?
07:27 < kanzure> building things will not always yield new knowledge.. it doesn't matter.
07:27 < cluckj> yes
07:27 < kanzure> in many cases you will end up knowing less than when you started, too.
07:29 < cluckj> building instruments out of trash is scientific too :P
07:33 < fenn> ok i managed to find a wayback link that wasn't broken: http://web.archive.org/web/20160803071952/http://openinsulin.org/june-update/
07:34 < cluckj> so they did manage to get proinsulin into the yeast :)
07:34 < fenn> um, still reading
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07:36 < fltrz> nmz787: whats your zip code? and do you have a preferential mailing/shipping service for when you would send the package to me? I'd like to estimate the cost of shipping to belgium
07:37 < fenn> cluckj: well it sounds like they think they produced proinsulin, but don't have a way to test
07:37 < fenn> either way, this definitely qualifies
07:38 < cluckj> yes, they only have fused-GFP verification that the construct was produced
07:38 < fenn> i wish there was more information about what they actually did
07:39 < fenn> "We used a technique called directed mutagenesis" could be a whole blog post in itself
07:39 < kanzure> there are many directed mutagenesis techniques, yeah.
07:40 < cluckj> I think avery at bosslab made some indigo pigment too
07:40 < cluckj> I'm trying to remember the name of the project
07:40 < cluckj> bluegene?
07:41 < cluckj> I'll actually go get my fieldnotes and see if there are more examples for you :P
07:43 < fenn> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/fbi-diybio-2012/avery-louie-bosslab/
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07:44 < fenn> "We have the Blue Gene project- we want to clone a gene from a wildtype bacteria into a plasmid bacteria or something, and we want this to come to a space near you."
07:44 < fenn> jeez kanzure did he really say that
07:45 < cluckj> http://bosslab.tumblr.com/BlueGene
07:47 < kanzure> fenn: maybe. there's no other recording, so it's difficult to check. i'm sure he said "and we want this to come to a space near you". i'm not sure he said "or something"-- that might have been me typing a replacement.
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07:49 < fenn> hehe this is what i like to see: https://pastebin.com/Ej1f4r3G
07:49 < fenn> load 'er up and see what it makes
07:49 < cluckj> "would you like to translate this page?" bahaha
07:50 < fenn> this is way more "open" than openinsulin's jpg images of the amino acid sequence
07:51 < fenn> my bad they're just fuzzy png
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07:53 < cluckj> hah
07:54 < cluckj> avery uses the blog as a lab notebook, and documents almost everything online on purpose
08:02 < fenn> insulin looks like a real pain in the ass
08:03 < fenn> i'd rather people just package up useful enzymes into plasmids and share cultures with each other
08:03 < fenn> rather than having to order a bunch of expensive reagents
08:03 < cluckj> it needs post-translational modification to the active form from proinsulin :(
08:04 < fenn> yeah it has at least two cleavage sites
08:04 < fenn> but just running a gel appears to be difficult
08:04 < fenn> it doesn't absorb dye and is too small for standard SDS-PAGE protocol
08:05 < fenn> and even then you don't know if it's folded right
08:05 < cluckj> yep
08:05 < fenn> and you can't test because it would be unethical or something
08:06 < cluckj> proinsulin isn't bioactive until it's modified
08:07 < cluckj> and you'd be testing with an unknown concentration anyway, which is a Bad Idea
08:07 < fenn> this was quite educational http://blog.indysci.org/insulin-is-hard-but-not-impossible/
08:08 < fenn> often enzymes are sold as "50 activity units" instead of real concentration in molarity or whatever
08:09 < cluckj> that's how insulin is sold
08:09 < fenn> there has to be some cell culture method of testing it
08:09 < fenn> none of the diybio spaces have a mammalian cell culture setup afaik
08:10 < fenn> much less human cell culture
08:10 < fenn> should be possible to beg for someone at a hospital or university to test it though
08:10 < cluckj> human cell culture would need to be a higher BSL than they're willing to commit to
08:11 < fenn> yeah that's understandable
08:11 < cluckj> iirc genspace does some basic cell culture stuff
08:13 < fenn> huh so they do
08:14 < fenn> maybe they should make chicken insulin and test it out on chicken cells
08:15 < cluckj> they could make human insulin and test it on pig or cow tissue
08:15 < fenn> is it active on non-human cells?
08:15 < cluckj> it should be
08:15 < fenn> why?
08:15 < cluckj> pig and cow insulin are active in human cells
08:16 < fenn> well fuck just inject it into a pig then
08:16 < fenn> see if the pig's blood sugar goes down
08:16 < cluckj> you'd have to find a diabetic pig
08:16 < fenn> naw
08:17 < fenn> it won't hurt the pig
08:17 < cluckj> in non-diabetics the blood glucose regulation system will counteract a lot of exogenous insulin
08:17 < fenn> unless you messed up and there's LPS or whatever in the test sample
08:18 < cluckj> injecting it just to see if it would work is probably okay in a diabetic human, but only if you can estimate the concentration :P
08:19 < fenn> i agree it's "probably okay" but everyone would freak out
08:20 < fenn> i'm not sure how you would purify it
08:20 < cluckj> HPLC?
08:21 < fenn> would you get enough insulin out of the HPLC run?
08:22 < cluckj> I don't know
08:23 < fenn> Insulin: 1 IU is equivalent to 0.0347 mg
08:25 < fenn> yeah you could probably get a dose (2mg) out of a HPLC machine
08:26 < cluckj> that's a lot more than a dose
08:26 < fenn> google says "semi-preparative HPLC up to 0.1mg"
08:26 < cluckj> that's a whole day's worth of insulin for me
08:27 < fenn> well the idea is to give the pig hypoglycemia
08:27 < cluckj> 3U is a good testing dose
08:27 < cluckj> that would kill the pig :(
08:27 < cluckj> maybe even a non-diabetic pig
08:29 < cluckj> I mean you'd end up with some really....savory pork chops?
08:30 < fenn> all the dosage stuff was "per day"
08:32 < cluckj> yeah, not all at once
08:32 < cluckj> over the course of 24 hours
08:33 < fenn> this says 4-24 units "mealtime insulin dose" http://www.afrezza.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/how_to_start_chart-1.png
08:34 < cluckj> afrezza is the weird inhalable one, look at humulin or humalog
08:35 < cluckj> a 2-3U dose is probably enough to see activity in a diabetic, without killing them
08:36 < fenn> yeah but i don't know any diabetic pigs
08:36 < fenn> anyway you could start with a low dose and raise it until you see activity
08:37 < fenn> which is the best idea anyway because it's an unknown concentration
08:37 < cluckj> you could take their pancreas out
08:37 < fenn> wasn't the goal not to kill the pig
08:37 < cluckj> I guess that's motivation to get the insulin working right the first time
08:38 < cluckj> but it wouldn't kill the pig immediately, you could keep it alive with commercially-produced insulin (setting aside the irony)
08:42 < TMA> pigs are also higly edible
08:42 < cluckj> I know some diabetic cats
08:42 < fltrz> perhaps dosage can be estimated by measuring optical activity of the insulin in solution?
08:43 < cluckj> they take humalog
08:43 < fltrz> or perhaps absorption spectra?
08:43 < fenn> the HPLC should give you some idea of the concentration
08:43 < cluckj> I mean the better solution is to just self-test it and get a result in 30-45 minutes...
08:45 < cluckj> fenn, yeah if the upper limit is .1g then that's about 3u
08:45 < cluckj> err .1mg
08:47 < cluckj> I'd be comfortable testing that amount on myself
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10:50 < nmz787> fltrz: 97123 is my zip
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12:38 < fltrz> nmz787: I don't want to send you out to some distant mailing office/location, so if you know a shipping company that has one that is around the corner or something
12:39 < fltrz> perhaps USPS or some other company?
12:39 < fltrz> if I know what shipping company we'll use I can look up the box size etc
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12:41 < fltrz> I also noticed that starting from $50 (4 lamps would be $60) the shipping from destinationlighting to you should be free if I understand correctly
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14:47 < nmz787> fltrz: I see the same thing now in my checkout-cart on the supplier site, re: shipping being free
14:47 < nmz787> fltrz: USPS is fine, there is a UPS store and also a FedEx store close by
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15:37 < Storyteller> thank you for the invite.
15:38 < kanzure> greetings
15:39 < kanzure> Storyteller: here is what we work on in here http://diyhpl.us/wiki/hplusroadmap/
15:40 < Storyteller> that is what I work on here.
15:41 < Storyteller> im looking into the racetam family in the near future for a year of math development
15:41 < Storyteller> pi and ani
15:42 < Storyteller> maybe oxy, not that old yet. probably add choline or alpha
15:42 < Storyteller> i hear the headaches can get bad
15:42 < kanzure> i have a proposal for how to potentially make an extremely strong nootropic but unfortunately it requires lotta hard work: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/2017-02-03-beacon.pdf#page=15 (see page 15)
15:43 < kanzure> (and also the proposal optimizes the wrong value (maze solving instead of memory or cogintive ability))
15:45 < kanzure> it occurs to me that fMRI measurement of visual image persistence could be developed, and also optimized with that method.  and highly-persistent visual imagery would probably be considered a nootropic effect.
15:46 < Storyteller> slow internet
15:47 < Storyteller> five minute to download
15:47 < kanzure> ah well the method is quite simple. you place microbes into mouse brain, run the mice through mazes, pick the winningest winners, recover the microbes, then repeat a billion times. also do some microbe breeding + mutation between each round or whatever.
15:47 < kanzure> this over time selects for brain-dwelling microbes that improve maze solving performance
15:48 < Storyteller> well, would you put such microbes in your body?
15:48 < kanzure> not at first. i said mice.
15:49 < Storyteller> or would you need to do all the breeding and implanting
15:49 < Storyteller> perhaps in this, a simulation is in order
15:49 < kanzure> before trying on humans it would probably be tested and adapted to another mammal, like rats.
15:49 < Storyteller> you could achieve possibly the same results without hurting any mice
15:49 < kanzure> brain simulation is not high fidelity enough yet for that to provide any practical results.
15:50 < Storyteller> i think it would be before you got very far breeding mice?
15:50 < kanzure> (or rather: we have high fidelity neuronal emulation technoloy, but we do not have sufficiently detailed connectomes of mice.)
15:50 < Storyteller> computers are getting very fast, why hurt all those living things if you can avoid it?
15:50 < kanzure> have you actually built neuron simulators before? i have.
15:51 < Storyteller> no never, how did you go about it?
15:51 < kanzure> using many different standardized tools, such as NEURON
15:51 < kanzure> i don't think it's fair for you to tell me that simulators can provide the same results while you haven't actually investigated this
15:53 < kanzure> i'm also alarmed that you think mammals are perceptive of toxo infections. basically 99.999% of all infected humans have no idea. why would a mouse know?
15:55 < Storyteller> i think injecting something in something else's brain is a bit of an ethical line, and care should be taken when that line is approached, you said 'billions of times' you recover the microbes, many generations of injecting microbes and extracting them from the brain
15:56 < Storyteller> thats a lot of stabbing a mouse with a needle in its brain, why do that?
15:56 < kanzure> billions is a rough estimate :-)
15:56 < kanzure> toxo is not delivered by brain needle
15:56 < Storyteller> for what gain? to be just a little smarter? are you curing diabetes, okay maybe thats more ok
15:56 < Storyteller> but to be a little smarter? not so much
15:56 < Storyteller> if you can develop the bit coin, help me develop one
15:57 < kanzure> no
15:57 < Storyteller> a 'good coin' than you run the mining on, and it does the simulation for you, and you dont have to hurt the mice
15:58 < kanzure> simulations do not make for a good proof-of-work function, here is why https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/asic-faq.pdf
15:58 < Storyteller> and whoever finds the right combination wins the coin, you do something good with your cpu heat cycles instead of nothing and you get to feel good about it
15:58 < Storyteller> I was just thinking of this the other day, all my friends they say 'i made all this money in bitcoin' and I always say its not for me
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15:59 < Storyteller> so what about a cyrpto coin thats not just wasted cpu cycles contributing to the heat death of the universe
15:59 < Storyteller> your cpu cycles -do- something good
15:59 < kanzure> i already gave you an answer.
16:00 < Storyteller> i dont think i would make money at the bitcoin. I understand its a bit of a 'pump nd dump' or a pyramid scheme, you worked on it, is it like that?
16:01 < Storyteller> i dont think thats how I want to make my money
16:01 < Storyteller> idk, at this point 'its a market'
16:02 < kanzure> some definitions of pyramid scheme are so loose that anything qualifies. so it becomes a useless definition.
16:03 < kanzure> if you want to see how bitcoin works then i recommend reading its source code: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
16:03 < kanzure> before imagining new proof-of-work functions perhaps you should read up about why sha256 was chosen as bitcoin's proof-of-work function. it seems sort of silly to pose criticism before knowing what properties the function must enforce.
16:07 < Storyteller> yeah, ok, I read that. I dont agree with your reasons
16:08 < Storyteller> its a nice paper.
16:08 < Storyteller> i dont think anything in that precludes making the cpu proof of work cycles be towards a useful thing
16:08 < kanzure> bitcoin is useful already.
16:08 < Storyteller> yeah totally
16:09 < kanzure> if you specifically mean simulations, then why do you think someone wouldn't invent a better simulator and break your math problem?
16:09 < Storyteller> but its based on nothing
16:09 < kanzure> if someone breaks the math problem then your simulator solution is broken: it cannot be used as a proof-of-work function.
16:09 < Storyteller> thats fine, the problem gets solved, thats the point
16:09 < kanzure> the point was consensus in a distributed system...
16:09 < Storyteller> you back the coin by money people put forward to have their problem solved
16:09 < kanzure> bitcoin sha256 mining is not trying to break sha256, did you know this?
16:10 < kanzure> you have the opposite requirement: you want to pick insecure functions, and somehow derive network security from it? why?
16:10 < Storyteller> no, I really dont get that into it. as far as I would go in cryptocurrency would be to try to organize a coin for social good
16:10 < Storyteller> and have it help cure diseases and such
16:10 < kanzure> so you're telling me that you don't care about the details and your statements are unrelated to details
16:11 < Storyteller> im telling you Im only interested in botcoin and bitcoin like things as far as setting up a non-profit or socially good oriented type of coin
16:12 < kanzure> alright, well, please leave this channel. you have thoroughly demonstrated that you are bad at thinking.
16:12 < Storyteller> i guess the basics of how it works is okay, I understand you are looking for a key, generated at random, that is in a pile of millions or trillions of possible combinations, and who ever finds they needle in the hay stack gets the coin
16:13 < Storyteller> you seem very sure of yourself
16:13 < kanzure> that's not how proof-of-work works.
16:14 < Storyteller> are you looking for a certain combination in a stack of possible combinations?
16:14 < kanzure> proof-of-work is a function that the bitcoin system uses to solve a distributed consensus problem (namely: how to make a network of distributed, decentralized peers that agree on the state of a shared database, without having a central authority decide the content?)
16:15 < kanzure> the prof-of-work function must be selected in that context. if there are optimizations or ways to cheat, then anyone will be able to costlessly forge entirely different histories, which is really bad for a financial system.
16:15 < Storyteller> ok, gotcha, and somewhere in there, it has a way to say 'person x found the thing in this stack of possible things', correct?
16:15 < kanzure> it has no sense of identity about people.
16:16 < Storyteller> well if you set it up that way, Im talking about doing something a bit different
16:16 < Storyteller> then how do you know who got the coin?
16:16 < kanzure> you don't.
16:16 < kanzure> you only know that certain public key hashes are authorized to spend certain coins.
16:17 < Storyteller> yeah ok, a persons account number found the key
16:17 < kanzure> there are no accounts, only coins and public keys.
16:17 < Storyteller> some computer somewhere unlocks a key, it finds the unique string in the stack of strings right?
16:18 < Storyteller> and that person, who owns that computer, gets an intangible thing of value, a bitcoin
16:18 < Storyteller> they mined one
16:18 < kanzure> bitcoin uses sha256 as a proof-of-work function so that the cost of forging history is roughly related to the cost of building new history.
16:19 < Storyteller> and they have application specific integrated circuits, chips that do that kind of math really fast right?
16:19 < Storyteller> ok, so someone somewhere found the original coin
16:20 < kanzure> here is an explanation of why bitcoin uses proof-of-work http://web.archive.org/web/20090309175840/http://www.bitcoin.org/byzantine.html
16:20 < Storyteller> and it gets traded and everyne has a blind account so its all anonymous right, but initially, you had a stack of numbers and people hadto find them
16:20 < Storyteller> right ok
16:21 < kanzure> if you have an insecure proof-of-work function then history becomes costlessly forgeable, which is exactly what you should be avoiding.
16:21 < kanzure> choosing a problem (like some kind of simulation) that can be accelerated through other algorithms is by definition the wrong problem to pick.
16:22 < Storyteller> for what yo uare trying to do with bitcoin, sure
16:22 < kanzure> you literally told me you wanted to make a coin or whatever.
16:22 < Storyteller> something like that
16:23 < kanzure> i think you should just use a centralized service and pay people to run simulations instead of using a decentralized distributed system.
16:23 < Storyteller> yes that
16:23 < Storyteller> maybe
16:23 < kanzure> it's intellectually dishonest of you to compare something to bitcoin when you don't know how it works or why it does what it does..
16:24 < Storyteller> its like, if you have a protein combination or a sequence of genes to do something, like cure cancer or make wheat grow in the snow, whatever
16:25 < Storyteller> like you need a unique combination, so you try to get time on a big super computer, to run a few batches and look at your results
16:25 < kanzure> you are describing computation to me. why?
16:26 < Storyteller> so what if you could have your problem, cataloging stars, or finding a gene therapy to prevented down's syndrome or whatever, you put your thing up on this server
16:26 < Storyteller> and people try to solve it for money, and they can buy asic (perhaps more sophisticated for doing gene sequences) and run lots of simulations on this hardware
16:27 < fltrz> Storyteller: the heat death argument against bitcoin is incorrect IMHO, are you against water cookers for making tea?
16:27 < Storyteller> like bitcoin or whatever
16:27 < Storyteller> no fltrz is it really so little after all this time?
16:27 < fltrz> every resistor producing a substantial amount of heat could be replaced with a mining rig (in theory)
16:27 < Storyteller> just a few cups of tea?
16:28 < fltrz> we need to generate heat in many applications, industrial chemical processes etc
16:28 < Storyteller> if so, then that is ok, not so much, but is it only done there? or in a basement in jakarta?
16:28 < fltrz> in the long run if no alternative to PoW would be found the entities that need to be able to generate heat will have an advantage in mining since they needed the heat anyway
16:29 < Storyteller> if you only make waste heat where it is used, or very little, thats ok
16:30 < fltrz> Storyteller: in the long run (i.e. at $/joule equilibrium, home miners etc are outcompeted by those who needed to convert electrical energy to heat anyway)
16:30 < Storyteller> my point is, id like to see all those cpu cycles, all that eletronics manufacturing, do something good
16:30 < Storyteller> im glad it made everyone so rich, its just not my thing
16:31 < Storyteller> but if there were a way to do something similar, and accomplish something with it, Id be into that
16:31 < fltrz> sure, but and I believe PoW will be displaced... when a reliable cryptographically secure alternative is found, but it will not be displaced out of conceptual conservation of energy
16:31 < fltrz> it will be displaced because people don't like to waste their own computational resources on mining
16:31 < fltrz> a WIP is for example Algorand
16:34 < fltrz> Storyteller: i'm not a vegetarian at all, I love eating meat, but becoming vegetarian would conserve a lot more resources and energy
16:35 < fltrz> that said, I wouldn't mind becoming vegetarian if meat production became less governmentally subsidized and more expensive
16:35 < fltrz> but as long as its cheap I will consume meat
16:37 < Storyteller> i also eat meat. my steak dinner was delicious, I had fried potatoes and some peas with cumin and thyme
16:40 < Storyteller> cool pdf there, the february hplus newsletter
16:40 < Storyteller> you call it the beacon? or that someone's name?
16:41 < Storyteller> im reading: http://bcl.ece.illinois.edu/mueller/index.htm
16:42 < Storyteller> wiener's cybernetics
16:42 < Storyteller> A Cybernetic Systems Model of Teaching and Research Production:
16:42 < Storyteller> Impact of Disciplinary Differences
16:43 < Storyteller> and several entries on reasoning and logic
16:44 < Storyteller> wiener's math is new to me, a lot of it is his musing on different mathematicians and im not familiar with half of them
16:45 < Storyteller> so Im going through and reading on those a bit.
16:45 < Storyteller> im doing a year of management, then next year Im doing a year of math, business math followed by calculus
16:47 < Storyteller> I am hoping to get some work done on several projects at that point, you get to a point, you just need to solve those problems to move the project forward
16:48 < Storyteller> the last sort of paper I wrote for class was on augmented reality for medical education, surgery and prosthetics, I did a lot of study on AR and its applications last year, Im looking at doing more with it over the next few years
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16:58 < Storyteller> interesting article on the bitcoin there, thank you, its informative
16:58 < Storyteller> ciao
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17:52 < nmz787> kanzure: what was the oculus rift thing I asked about at the HGP-write conference?
17:52 < nmz787> that could be another reason to get a good video card
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17:57 < kanzure> i was too busy typing
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18:22 < kanzure> "Bayesian association scan reveals loci associated with human lifespan and linked biomarkers" https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15842
18:22 < kanzure> "Further analysis revealed that brain expression levels of nearby genes (RBM6, SULT1A1 and CHRNA5) might be causally implicated in longevity"
18:24 < kanzure> buncha introns near: PPAP2B, DPP4, TAIP, CSORF67, LPA, CDKN2BAS, CHRNA5, SNX29, NPIPB8, FTO.
18:25 < kanzure> intergenic hits: BSND, FTH1PS, LPL, APOC1, CELSR2, MSANTD1.
18:25 < kanzure> "A recent extreme longevity study[18] found four novel associated protective alleles near CDKN2B/ANRIL (rs4977756-G), SH2B3/ATXN2 (rs3184504-G), ABO (rs514659-A) and HLA (rs3763305-A). Remarkably, the first two variants replicated in our analysis with (one-sided) P values P=4.34 × 10^−6, P=1.08 × 10^−3, P=0.03, P=0.51, respectively."
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18:29 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=af68c358 Bryan Bishop: some more longevity mutants >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/genetic-modifications/
18:32 < kanzure> "Three genes (SULT1A1, CHRNA5 and RBM6) showed significant negative causal effects (all in brain) on lifespan, that is, lower expression extending lifespan"
18:33 < kanzure> well that's not good. i like my acetlycholine.
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19:19 < kanzure> "Decoding the content of visual short-term memory under distraction in occipital and parietal areas" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4696876/ (2016)
19:21 < kanzure> "Restoring latent visual working memory representations in human cortex" https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Thomas_Sprague/publication/305807508_Restoring_Latent_Visual_Working_Memory_Representations_in_Human_Cortex/links/57a4aaca08aefe6167af0cd8.pdf
19:22 < kanzure> "Central attention is serial, but midlevel and peripheral attention are parallel—A hypothesis" https://link.springer.com/article/10.3758/s13414-016-1171-y
19:24 < kanzure> "A theory of working memory without consciousness or sustained activity" http://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2016/12/14/093815.full.pdf
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19:33 < kanzure> "Neural decoding of visual imagery during sleep" http://zoology.ou.edu/pdf_documents/Neuromunch/Horikawa_et_al_2013.pdf (2013)
19:36 < kanzure> "A voxel-wise encoding model for early visual areas decodes mental images of remembered scenes" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4364759/ (2015)
19:38 < kanzure> "Distributed patterns of reactivation predict vividness of recollection" https://www.utdallas.edu/~herve/abdi2015-sab-vivid.pdf (2015)
19:39 < kanzure> this is a fun one: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=6794728817723311048&as_sdt=5,44&sciodt=0,44&hl=en
19:43 < kanzure> "Shared memories reveal shared structure in neural activity across individuals" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5191958/ (2017)
19:44 < kanzure> "Participants viewed a fifty-minute movie, then verbally described the events during functional MRI, producing unguided detailed descriptions lasting up to forty minutes. As each person spoke, event-specific spatial patterns were reinstated in default-network, medial-temporal, and high-level visual areas. Individual event patterns were both highly discriminable from one another and similar ...
19:44 < kanzure> ...between people, suggesting consistent spatial organization. In many high-order areas, patterns were more similar between people recalling the same event than between recall and perception, indicating systematic reshaping of percept into memory. These results reveal the existence of a common spatial organization for memories in high-level cortical areas, where encoded information is largely ...
19:44 < kanzure> ...abstracted beyond sensory constraints; and that neural patterns during perception are altered systematically across people into shared memory representations for real-life events."
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19:51 < kanzure> "These results indicate that in many areas that exhibited movie-recall reinstatement effects within an individual, neural patterns elicited during spoken recollection of a given movie scene were similar to neural patterns in other individuals watching the same scene."
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21:02 < nmz787> kanzure: so you didn't type what I asked and they replied?
21:02 < nmz787> :/
21:05 < Storyteller> some interesting stuff on the site
21:14 < nmz787> kanzure: got it https://twitter.com/norklemcdorkle/status/862328539261136896
21:14 < nmz787> .title
21:14 < yoleaux> Nathan McCorkle auf Twitter: "@helmutazam can you point us to the Oculus Rift info for Molecular Viewer? I only found this ref: https://t.co/Qi3LGaaAc4 #gpwrite"
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22:51 < adlai> "22:59:38 Storyteller | so what about a cyrpto coin thats not just wasted cpu cycles contributing to the heat death of the universe" << isn't this just a slippery slope to "save the planet - kill yourself!"?
22:52 < adlai> any and everything worthwhile "contributes" to the heat death of the universe (as though thermodynamics needs your "contribution")
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