--- Log opened Fri Sep 08 00:00:12 2017
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09:01 < kanzure> hmph
09:03 < archels> today's loot from dumpster diving: a peristaltic pump
09:03 < archels> this one's kinda cute, it has a gear mechanism so the rollers counter-rotate
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09:22 < fltrz> hm, if I hold half a cup of air upside down under water, then in theory eventually the air dissolves in the water and is released at the atmospheric surface?
09:24 < nmz787> fltrz: there'd be some equilibrium I think, which might not be the cup being totally full of water
09:25 < fltrz> yeah, but in theory the lowest equilibrium is the cup filled with water and the air above all water
09:25 < fenn> this sounds like a job for ... SCIENCE
09:25 < nmz787> but I think you have to consider the... work function???
09:26 < fltrz> I think the reason is air is mostly nitrogen, and it condenses at a low temperature, and itd be exponential temperature dependence?
09:27 < brujo_biologica> 5~
09:28 < fltrz> nmz787: the collision rate of nitrogen hitting the cup water surface is higher than the collision rate of the nitrogen hitting the atmospheric surface (because of the extra weight of water) so we know its not full equilibrium
09:28 < fltrz> I guess its just very slow process
09:29 < fltrz> ah and 'viscosity' of water & distance to upper surface resists the diffusion too
09:35 < fltrz> nmz787: yeah, I guess you can see it as a work function too, that's interesting
09:46 < PresidentTrump> how many nukes will the USA drop on north korea?
09:47 < PresidentTrump> can we guess where they'll drop them?
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11:38 < fenn> i made a less broken version: http://fennetic.net/irc/haruhi_flashback.mkv
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14:41 < maaku> PresidentTrump: you would know
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14:58 < fltrz> PresidentTrump: why are you so obsessed with weapons?
14:59 < PresidentTrump> Hehehe
15:00 < fltrz> PresidentTrump: as far as I can tell, this channel is not related to weapons
15:00 < fltrz> PresidentTrump: what non-weapon related subject brings you here?
15:00 < PresidentTrump> Bioweapons
15:00 < PresidentTrump> I'm trying to go to sleep
15:01 < PresidentTrump> Somehow my laptop won't turn off and I can hear all your messages
15:01 < fltrz> sleep tight, try not to dream about weapons too much
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15:19 < kanzure> apparently the translators disagree with each other. w/e.
15:30 < nmz787> "there is no 1:1 mapping for that idea"
15:31 < nmz787> hear it all the time when trying to translate things
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15:38 < darsie> PresidentTrump: 0
15:40 < fenn> but can you guess where?
15:41 < kanzure> hm?
15:43 < fenn> just being a smartass. "0 nukes will be dropped, and they will fall at ... "
15:44 < kanzure> oh i was expecting snarky comment like "you don't know japanese why would you somethin something translators stuff"
15:44 < fenn> what happened to the FDA ban counter?
15:45 < JayDugger> Got reset with the Trump administration's nominee for FDA chair, I thought.
15:46 < kanzure> well i had forgotten about the fbi stuff
15:46 < fenn> that should only matter if they actually change their policies to un-ban previous attempts
15:46 < kanzure> and the fbi stuff was more real than the fda stuff
15:46 < JayDugger> Hi, feds! Happy eavesdropping!
15:46 < fenn> i consider the FDA more of a problem than the FBI
15:47 < fenn> the FBI will maybe kill you with some probability. the FDA will prevent you from not dying with high probability
15:47 < JayDugger> Succinctly put.
15:48 < kanzure> well at least i got some coffee/brownies out of the fbi stuff. the fda has never actually investigated me/us.
15:48 < fenn> might be worth filing an FOIA
15:49 < fenn> the FBI was actually a positive organizing force in DIYbio just because nobody had their shit together enough to organize a conference
15:49 < kanzure> a conference wasn't what diybio needed
15:50 < kanzure> look at you, recommending conferences? what have you become.
15:50  * nmz787 totally saw fenn at a conference recently... he was in a yoga pose, indicating he was comfortable there
15:50 < nmz787> or maybe he was yoga'ing away the negative vibes
15:50 < nmz787> :/
15:51 < JayDugger> And SEC, IRS, and DHS? Where do they fit?
15:51 < fenn> mumble mumble bitcoin
15:51 < kanzure> i think JayDugger is unaware of http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/fbi-diybio-2012/
15:51 < fenn> is DHS even real
15:52 < fenn> aren't they just fictional villains from some cory doctorow novel
15:52 < JayDugger> Not completely ignorant, but probably less well informed than I think.
15:53 < JayDugger> Anyone of those transcripts in particular?
15:53 < kanzure> "introduction" is pretty hilarious
15:53 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/fbi-diybio-2012/intro/
15:54 < JayDugger> Thank you.
15:58 < fenn> token finnish person
15:59 < fenn> "Anti Hackmetz" come on that's obviously a fake name
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17:07 < kanzure> gene-hacker: sup
17:08 < gene-hacker> not much
17:08 < gene-hacker> wondering about how a hardware description language for mechanical systems would work
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17:50 < fltrz> gene-hacker: I was going to say "droplet a : out chemical" and "a <= H2O" then realized none of it would make sense, there's no lab hardware synthesis going on, only direct specification of it (no software that can optimize away chemical steps)
17:51 < fltrz> while logic is axiomatic, substances etc are experimental
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17:51 < gene-hacker> well automated design of chemical processes has been attempted
17:52 < fltrz> perhaps there does exist software that can optimize away steps and concentrations?
17:53 < fltrz> seems more like scada than VHDL or whatever
17:54 < fltrz> gene-hacker: what prompted your wondering, you were reading a specific text or?
17:55 < gene-hacker> been thinking about this problem for a while now
17:55 < gene-hacker> was going to write something up for darpa's FUN DESIGN grant
17:55 < fltrz> what is FUN DESIGN?
17:56 < gene-hacker> http://fbs.admin.utah.edu/research-corner/files/2017/08/DARPA-SN-17-71__Amendment_1.pdf
17:57 < gene-hacker> here's the stuff that has been done on chemical process plant design: http://fbs.admin.utah.edu/research-corner/files/2017/08/DARPA-SN-17-71__Amendment_1.pdf
17:57 < gene-hacker> I think
17:58 < gene-hacker> it's a darpa program about coming up with building blocks for conceptual design of mechanical systems
17:59 < gene-hacker> part of the idea is if you had these building blocks, you could have computers do conceptual design
18:01 < fltrz> so things like joints, and elastic solids with certain specifications
18:01 < gene-hacker> we don't know
18:02 < fltrz> those would seem the primitives humans use
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18:04 < fltrz> continuum mechanics for 'solids' and fluida, combined with with locally perfect degrees of freedom joints (i.e. the hub of a wheel)
18:05 < fltrz> but what is the metric that is being optimized? there should be some goal/requirement specification language
18:06 < maaku> gene-hacker: thanks for posting the darpa thing, it's interesting
18:06 < maaku> I'm also very interested in a hardware description language for mechanical systems
18:06 < fltrz> and when you see the computer design silly things, you specify forgotten requirement you failed to specify
18:07 < gene-hacker> I'd say that's too low level
18:08 < fltrz> I think the main problem is the feasibility/price limits, an expensive bearing yesterday, might be cheaper today
18:08 < fltrz> these are constantly shifting, and the software would need constant market research
18:09 < fltrz> I think its possible to do, but not without markets opening up on detailed specifications and standardizing on specification format
18:10 < fltrz> I can render a perfect cylinder that fits in a perfect drilled hole, but then we haven't designed for manufacture
18:11 < fltrz> we can design for manufacture and design for outsourcing if we know more about the manufacturing processes and limits and more about whats available off the shelf
18:13 < fltrz> also, design iteration is very much driven by product usage, think of the thermographic phosphor used in turbine parts
18:14 < fltrz> so I think the formalization to primitives is useful, but you can only try to formalize what you know about, so instead of having candidates postulate their a priori Theory of Everything
18:16 < fltrz> it would be better to ask for information flows so that each (unpredicted) problem resulting from a product of the last iteration, gets studied, the effect formalized, and the effect added into the software that designed the last iteration, so that it can take it into account for the next iteration
18:17 < fltrz> but then again, that seems pretty much what everyone is supposedly doing?
18:26 < kanzure> fltrz: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/campbell/The%20A-Design%20approach%20to%20managing%20automated%20design%20synthesis.pdf
18:26 < fltrz> suppose we still didn't come up with idea of the reusable rocket, from a strictly mechanical point of view you are simply asking to design a rocket that flies, I don't see how a computer will suggest reusing the rockets
18:31 < kanzure> your requirement is not flight, it's multi-flight
18:32 < fltrz> but then -we- had the idea
18:32 < kanzure> didn't we?
18:33 < fltrz> yes, Im assuming we didn't, and are hoping the computer comes up with a good suggestion for better rockets
18:33 < kanzure> if you input the requirement as one-flight-only, then surely it should NOT come up with multi-flight
18:34 < fltrz> I understand and agree, its entirely related to "asking the right question"
18:34 < kanzure> please submit all questions in the form of an answer
18:34 < fltrz> hm?
18:35 < kanzure> a joke
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18:38 < fltrz> I think a survey of history of known 'device' (i.e. vehicles, tools, ...) improvements and across fields may be more interesting, and generating different classifications for these improvement
18:38 < fltrz> then perhaps we might see different examples of consumable->reusable improvements in other devices, and then enter this in the classification of abstract improvements
18:39 < kanzure> one of the projects from this channel was 'skdb' idea was to get debian/nix-style packages for all machine tools and then run a query on the data set to pull out a self-replicating subset
18:39 < fltrz> perhaps with some analogy machine?
18:39 < fltrz> what does sk stand for?
18:39 < kanzure> i'm too embarrassed to say
18:40 < fltrz> don't be
18:40 < kanzure> http://gnusha.org/skdb/
18:40 < fltrz> so for each tool, consider the set of tools required to build it?
18:40 < kanzure> *specify* the set of tools required
18:41 < fltrz> this constructs a kind of graph
18:41 < kanzure> yes
18:41 < kanzure> it's all graphs
18:41 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/campbell/
18:42 < fltrz> what if a tool can be generated by either tools a,b,c or tools A,B,C,D?
18:43 < fltrz> so this is t = (a and b and c) or (A and B and C and D)
18:44 < kanzure> yes, those are alternative dependencies or alternative packages
18:44 < fltrz> so if we consider the bit vector with the number of tools as length, and each bit position is a tool, we are looking for fixed points of the function
18:45 < fltrz> ah no
18:45 < fltrz> not fixed
18:45 < kanzure> xentrac has made some progress in some areas related to clay, sand, and ceramics, but he hasn't reported in a while about what he's thinking
18:45 < fltrz> we search for x such that (f(x) && x) == x
18:45 < kanzure> anyway the problem is greater than any single person seems to be able to consider, so that's why i was thinking it would have to grow out of a packaging ecosystem that exists first for other reasons
18:45 < kanzure> anyway..... we already have self-replicators: cells.
18:46 < kanzure> and viruses
18:47 < fltrz> sure, but that does not negate the utility of a skdb, since hobbyists or scientists on a budget can't really yet make a CNC mill by reprogramming cells
18:47 < kanzure> https://github.com/kanzure/skdb
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20:30 < brujo_biologica> fenn: sorry to backtrack but FOIA and related personal dossier requests are blatant joke. Approved FOIA requests grant you access to "public records" that were previously accessible and a dossier request returns a generic letter of denial explaining that there may or may not be
20:32 < kanzure> i did not get a letter of denial when i sent a FOIA... nor another type of reply.
20:33 < kanzure> http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2014-07-09-Aubrey.JPG
20:34 < brujo_biologica> harvested info. But such a request most definetly gets your name queuried
20:35 < kanzure> i was pretty sure they would have something since hplusroadmap was subject of an investigation supposedly
20:35 < kanzure> and/or at least me and a few of the others
20:35 < kanzure> and since i had regular meetings with an agent...
20:35 < kanzure> but what do i know
20:35 < brujo_biologica>  thats interesting.. that was \
20:36 < kanzure> oh yes very \
20:36 < kanzure> what?
20:36 < cluckj> the fbi agents I met told me how to file FOIA requests to actually get good stuff out of them
20:36 < kanzure> go forth and file
20:36 < kanzure> compare against your field notes
20:36 < brujo_biologica> a decision based on what they know about you prbably
20:36 < cluckj> it'll have to wait for the book
20:37 < kanzure> you are monetizing our friendship, cluckj?
20:38 < kanzure> bram cohen suggests crispred hypoallergenic cats. but i think we already have hypoallergenic cats? or is it only certain breeds?
20:38 < kanzure> he says it's a single known cat saliva protein
20:38 < cluckj> maybe
20:38 < cluckj> how much should I be getting for it
20:39 < kanzure> i take 90% you take 10%
20:39 < cluckj> 90% of $3 in royalties is like, not that much dude
20:40 < kanzure> your career sucks
20:40 < brujo_biologica> damn
20:40 < cluckj> books aren't about the money, they're about tenure!
20:42 < cluckj> your FOIA request got ignored?
20:42 < brujo_biologica> do either of you dvorak? recently switched and i feel impaired
20:42 < cluckj> nope
20:44 < brujo_biologica> cluckj: based on what i know on investigative procedures somethig like an ignored FOIA is common
20:46 < brujo_biologica> not common, but rather no big deal and up to the discretion of the lead agent
20:47 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/verifiable-brain-preservation/
20:47 < kanzure> cluckj: i think i told them i'd pay $50 and that was the last email in the chain
20:47 < kanzure> brujo_biologica: i don't dvorak. i am part of the qwerty master race: http://www.seanwrona.com/typeracer/profile.php?username=kanzure
20:48 < cluckj> hahaha
20:48 < cluckj> you tried to bribe them???
20:49 < kanzure> no that's how FOIA works
20:49 < kanzure> you pay them
20:50 < cluckj> nah just get them waived unless you're requesting info on yourself
20:50 < kanzure> the F in FOIA is "freedom" as in freedom not free as in beer
20:50 < kanzure> wait do i have this backwards?
20:51 < kanzure> oh my god i might have bribed the fbi
20:51 < cluckj> *tried to*
20:52 < brujo_biologica> did you just admit and self-incriminate??
20:52 < kanzure> my lawyer strongly advises me to not answer any questions, as a general policy
20:52 < brujo_biologica> no plea bargain fo ju
20:53 < brujo_biologica> thats the best general policy
20:54 < cluckj> I mean if they were really going to come after you it'd be for piracy or something more interesting than accidentally trying to bribe a fed
21:03 < kanzure> https://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/fbi-diybio-2012/intro/
21:09 < cluckj> I have a feeling there was a lot going on behind the scenes about that conference
21:14 < kanzure> there was a lot of pressure in the community, especially from the software side, to not talk with the feds.
21:14 < cluckj> oh, I know a bit about the dissonance in diybio, I meant in the fbi
21:16 < cluckj> I didn't have time to unravel that stuff for my dissertation
21:16 < kanzure> do you want the aladeen news, or the aladeen news?
21:16 < cluckj> yeah
21:17 < kanzure> oh.
21:19 < kanzure> what stuff behind the scenes do you mean
21:20 < cluckj> why they were doing it, and how they were responding to criticisms from the community publicly & privately about it
21:21 < cluckj> and the extent of their...infiltration?
21:23 < brujo_biologica> coming from infosec, theyre ingrained more thnan meets the eyes.. esp when its a balanced crowd..
21:24 < cluckj> yes
21:25 < brujo_biologica> they just wanna know who's who and be able to make inferences and predictions for future reference
21:26 < cluckj> that was their line, but I didn't/still don't buy it
21:27 < cluckj> other things they were talking about lead me to believe there was something else going on
21:28 < brujo_biologica> ah i just say that because thats how they operate. they want a dossier up to the furthest reaches of the family
21:29 < brujo_biologica> "fawily tree" that is the budding community
21:30 < cluckj> yeah
21:30 < cluckj> I have some guesses, but not enough data to support them
21:33 < brujo_biologica> i know what you mean; its just the low hanging fruit of a budding technology
21:34 < brujo_biologica> best not put anythig in writing
21:34 < cluckj> lol
21:34 < maaku> "Often referred to as the “longhaired Siamese,” the Balinese looks like an unlikely candidate for a hypoallergenic cat. But it is one of the few breeds that produces less of the Fel D1 protein than other cats, thus causing fewer allergic reactions in allergy sufferers."
21:35 < brujo_biologica> and thereby speak it into being if you believe such conventions
21:35 < cluckj> I'd really like to put it in writing though
21:35 < maaku> should be relatively easy (as these things go) to maek Fel D1 deficient versions of other cat breeds, no?
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--- Log closed Sat Sep 09 00:00:13 2017