--- Log opened Mon Sep 11 00:00:15 2017
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06:19 < kanzure> hi traumschule
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06:23 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=5720953f Bryan Bishop: more bitcoin development transcripts stuff >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/bitcoin-core-dev-tech/2017-09-05/
06:25 < traumschule> hi kanzure
06:25 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=bb259410 Bryan Bishop: add tweeter link >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/bitcoin-core-dev-tech/2017-09-05/
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06:58 < poppingtonic> do you have a list of SENS-related GAN drug discovery links?
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07:23 < kanzure> GAN=adversarial?
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07:51 < kanzure> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_Save_the_Galaxy_for_Food
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07:52 < poppingtonic> whoops. power outage
07:53 < kanzure> GAN=adversarial?
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08:41 < kanzure> this is a surprisingly short article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsible_disclosure
08:49 < ybit> .title https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/bacteria-use-brainlike-bursts-of-electricity-to-communicate/
08:49 < yoleaux> Bacteria Use Brainlike Bursts of Electricity to Communicate - Scientific American
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08:50 < kanzure> brainlike
08:56 < cluckj> sometimes
09:01 < kanzure> heh blue brain project uses nix https://github.com/BlueBrain/bbp-nixpkgs
09:01 < kanzure> 'Simulator optimized for large scale neural network simulations' https://github.com/BlueBrain/CoreNeuron
09:02 < Storyteller> so, is this how our gut bacteria communicates in order to control us then?
09:02 < Storyteller> ;-)
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09:05 < poppingtonic> kanzure: yes. adversarial nets for drug discovery
09:06 < kanzure> Storyteller: no.
09:06 < Storyteller> twas in jest
09:07 < poppingtonic> I know some Stanford lab has done some work, like this.
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09:07 < poppingtonic> But I can't find the website now, or the referred paper.
09:07 < poppingtonic> Here's one: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/acs.molpharmaceut.7b00346?src=recsys&
09:08 < poppingtonic> .title
09:08 < yoleaux> poppingtonic: Sorry, that doesn't appear to be an HTML page.
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09:41 < fenn> kanzure you should say at the top of every transcript who is doing the talking, if possible
09:41 < kanzure> "DolphinAttack: Inaudible voice commands" https://arxiv.org/pdf/1708.09537.pdf
09:41 < kanzure> fenn: in these transcripts in particular, it was not desirable for the speakers to do so.   also this isn't about holding people accountable, it's about disseminating knowledge.
09:42 < kanzure> although in some cases the speakers ask for attribution...   and i usually do that for public conference transcripts.
09:42 < kanzure> but this was more of a private get-together and hangout
09:43 < fenn> if they prefer to be anonymous then you should note it as "anonymous speaker"
09:43 < kanzure> bunch of people huddled around on a few couches looking at a whiteboard
09:43 < fenn> otherwise it looks as if you are doing the speaking
09:43 < kanzure> oh
09:43 < fenn> not everyone will notice the "transcripts" in the url
09:43 < fenn> or even understand what that means
09:43 < kanzure> actually i've had someone people complain that my name is not prominently on each page
09:44 < kanzure> "oh this is your site?"
09:44 < fenn> meh
09:44 < fenn> i'm not a fan of mandatory full name use
09:45 < kanzure> today's drama of interest is confusion about responsible disclosure
09:46 < kanzure> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-September/014972.html
09:47 < fenn> good luck patching all the things
09:47 < fenn> was this particular failure mode mentioned in the "why altcoins suck" paper?
09:47 < kanzure> someone disclosed a vulnerability (fixed in upcoming bitcoin core v0.15.0) on stage at a conference, after verbally agreeing to wait on disclosure until a fix was widely deployed :\
09:48 < kanzure> fenn: andytoshi's? no i don't think so.
09:48 < fenn> oh i thought it was deployed already
09:48 < kanzure> for the v0.15.0 DoS thing mentioned on stage, it's fixed but not deployed, and certainly not widely deployed to other altcoins
09:48 < kanzure> oops i mean the pre-v0.15.0 DoS thing
09:49 < andytoshi> fenn: no, the altcoins paper hasn't really been updated since early 2015, it's missing a bunch of good stuff because the altcoin landscape changed into a much more irritating form
09:49 < andytoshi> vacuous hard-to-read whitepapers combined with tons of paid shills
09:49 < kanzure> andytoshi are you still guzzling ibuprofens and are you okay
09:50 < andytoshi> kanzure: i'm much better. no ibuprofen in the last couple days. i moved to kansas city whree i'm living alone (no need to talk all day with only pastries to eat and drinks every night, plus i can sleep)
09:51 < kanzure> k
09:51 < andytoshi> still a little sick but i only notice it at night. probably i'll be 100% back to normal in a few days
09:51 < kanzure> fenn: there's a lot of weirdness in the bitcoin ecosystem around vulnerabilities.  a lot of people seem perfectly happy to run around exploiting shit immediately, even though it's finance software....
09:52 < fenn> i'd expect more exploitation in the finance software case
09:52 < kanzure> and also because of politics.  "well it's OK for us to exploit software because even though it's adversarial, it's OK because we've politicized it!!!!"
09:52 < kanzure> you should expect more exploitation from anonymous individuals, perhaps
09:52 < kanzure> but not from community members
09:52 < kanzure> or fringe-community-members
09:53 < fenn> have you considered that the community is a sham
09:53 < kanzure> well you probably shouldn't directly include anyone that is actively exploiting software "for the lolz" or "because politics", sure.
09:53 < fenn> maybe 50% of the people are true believers and the other 50% are ready to "defect"
09:53 < kanzure> defection is fine... but it's immoral to hax0r everyone.
09:54 < fenn> i mean in the prisoner's dilemma sense
09:54 < fenn> a tiny incremental gain for yourself vs utter ruin for the other
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09:55 < fenn> there's a myth that cryptography is the only thing protecting bitcoin, so if that cryptography goes away it's fair game?
09:56 < kanzure> all this "exploit all the things" is going to be bonkers with easy virus synthesis
09:56 < fenn> it would be like finding a dollar bill on the street
09:56 < kanzure> DoS vulnerabilities don't directly contribute to stealing coins but if you don't get network data maybe you get fooled eventually
09:57 < kanzure> (and it's still a crash anyway.)
09:58 < fenn> i think this "exploit all the things" instinct is related to why people are attracted to the idea of a cryptocurrency to begin with
09:58 < fenn> the idea that it's just math, and there's no big man telling you what to do
10:00 < fenn> also people want to show off their accomplishment (of making a cool hack)
10:01 < kanzure> it's not just math-- malware effects real people.
10:01 < kanzure> you can show off your hack once the fix has been deployed...
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10:04 < kanzure> you *could* deploy a virus that eliminates the human race because humans are vulnerable, but should you?    especially when there's no effective alternative to being human so far?
10:05 < fenn> someone might decide that's a good idea
10:05 < kanzure> that doesn't mean you should agree with them
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10:09 < kanzure> i guess you could argue "my agreeing with them about elimination of human species might directly contribute convincing people to actively fund relevant defense projects".
10:10 < fenn> i guarantee there is some wingnut environmentalist who thinks immediate extinction of humanity is the best possible option
10:10 < fenn> we don't even need an actual example to point at
10:10 < fenn> just assume they exist
10:13 < kanzure> i'm still of the opinion that widely deploying cheap biotech is the best defense strategy
10:13 < fenn> yes i agree
10:14 < fenn> there are already biological weapons after all
10:16 < kanzure> i wonder if easy biotech weaponization will be good/sufficient argument to encourage brain uploading tech
10:16 < kanzure> probably biological devastation will happen too rapidly and nobody will have a chance to care about long-term goals like that
10:17 < fenn> people are dying constantly and nobody gives a shit about brain uploading
10:17 < fenn> not even preservation
10:17 < fenn> the way we treat bodies is disgustin
10:17 < fenn> g
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10:18 < andytoshi> fenn: i think most people would be very concerned about the societal impact of brain uploading, it'd drop the market cost of labor to 0, this is one reason why it never seems to get public traction
10:19 < fenn> you could say the same about AI and people are quite enthusiastic about AI
10:19 < fenn> i think it's more of a pseudo religious argument that death is inevitable and you just have to bury your head in the sand to deal with it
10:20 < fenn> most people just haven't really thought about it very hard
10:20 < fenn> but even those that have somehow end up at absurd conclusions like death acceptance
10:21 < fenn> it's really frustrating
10:21 < andytoshi> agreed, death is horrible, and the arguments against this tend to be magical and stupid
10:21 < andytoshi> but brain-uploading specifically seems to me like it'd lead directly and immediately to slavery
10:21 < fenn> only if you think about uploads as something other than human
10:22 < andytoshi> no, if they were non-human everything would be awesome, humans would no longer need to do any labor because the uploads were doing it all
10:22 < andytoshi> but if they _are_ human and they can be reproduced at no cost and have to compete with each other, that's a dangerous situation
10:22 < fenn> humans already can be reproduced at ~ no cost
10:23 < fenn> and they come with these really awesome self repairing meat robots
10:23 < kanzure> andytoshi: uploads wouldn't drop the cost of labor to zero.  there's still a very high cost of computation.
10:24 < kanzure> zero-cost replication of emulations is very unlikely; there's very high resource costs to running any of this stuff..
10:24 < kanzure> instead of food it's just energy and computation and memory
10:24 < kanzure> and bandwidth
10:24 < kanzure> and time
10:25 < fenn> i will personally commit to bombing any brain emulation slavery facility
10:25 < fenn> i'm sure many others will feel the same
10:25 < andytoshi> ok, thanks fenn
10:26 < fenn> there is an inherent tension between freedom of thought and abolition of suffering
10:26 < andytoshi> i'm not convinced kanzure but i don't have any numbers. but i think we can compute at way lower cost than using neurons and feeding entire bodies
10:26 < fenn> how detailed do your simulations have to be before they morally count as "real"
10:26 < fenn> but this is straying into philosophy
10:28 < kanzure> well first you reduce all future possibilities into a computation of relative pain and torture and then you compare the different alternatives and pick whatever seems less awful, even if that's simulating fenn for a billion years alone to improve the outcome for a trillion people in the next few seconds.
10:29 < kanzure> (i'm not actually sure that specific calculation turns out in favor of a billion-year isolation run)
10:29 < fenn> "relative" is the keyword
10:29 < fenn> there are actually very few tradeoffs where you consign a few people to torture and slavery in exchange for betterment of everyeone else
10:30 < kanzure> "first you reduce the future to a single number, and then you sort the numbers. it's simple! (required steve interjection:: also: to compute the values you must inflict infinite torture anyway.)"
10:30 < fenn> this sort of thing only happens in lifeboats and movies
10:30 < fenn> i don't believe in infinity
10:31 < fenn> as a result i don't have absurd conclusions in reasoning
10:31 < kanzure> oh my god he's figured out an immunity to steve-isms
10:31 < fenn> that shouldn't be surprising
10:31 < fenn> i would be dead by now if not
10:32 < fenn> i would have starved to death or gouged out my eyes and died of infection
10:33 < fenn> (jk anyone who doesn't realize this is a joke)
10:33 < kanzure> (((jk fenn is totally infected and has been rendered inert))))
10:33 < fenn> ... braainss ...
10:33  * fenn drools
10:37 < kanzure> immunity is too hard to upgrade, why hasn't anyone adopted my high-friction low-usability  "just use gas masks and atmospheric separation everywhere you go" ideas?
10:39 < fenn> there probably is some secret government facility in virginia that does this
10:40 < fenn> but it's too expensive to implement for everywhere when you don't know that you'll even need it
10:41 < fenn> people with compromised immune systems do this
10:41 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubble_Boy
10:41 < kanzure> er i wonder why i asked "anyone". yes i knew abou that.
10:42 < fenn> "The suit drew so much attention that he rarely chose to leave."
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10:57 < ybit> cd
10:57 < ybit> cd bio/vids
10:57 < ybit> argh :)
10:58 < kanzure> A+ for effort
11:00 < ybit> i'll be happy when osx isn't on this machine
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11:11 < kanzure> http://alla-astakhova.ru/sci-hub/
11:13 < kanzure> "Команды как таковой нет. За весь проект полностью отвечаю я. Но есть люди, которые поддерживают «зеркала», где хранятся научные статьи. Я также покупаю у некоторых других команд ресурсы для проекта. В месяц на ...
11:13 < kanzure> ...поддержку сайта уходит несколько тысяч долларов. Весь код проекта написан мной, это несколько десятков тысяч строк PHP, если я точно помню."
11:15 < kanzure> "Никакой поддержки от государств, агентств или организаций я не получаю. Хотя насчет финансовой поддержки, наверное, точно сказать не смогу. На сайте есть кошелек — отправить туда пожертвование может кто угодно."
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13:34 < kanzure> wonder how this compares to thingiverse search results https://www.yobi3d.com/q/engine?page=1
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16:00 < kanzure> .title https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/commit/306c4aef8e3af44fb3f2d8f52fc887f2c48e9c04
16:00 < yoleaux> autopilot: "Look ma no hands!", introducing autopilot mode · lightningnetwork/lnd@306c4ae · GitHub
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18:12 < streety> kanzure nmz787 was it this week you were visiting DC?
18:12 < streety> how are your itineraries looking? Time to meet?
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18:19 < kanzure> streety: wednesday afternoon is good for me but nmz787 is landing 6pm.
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18:32 < streety> where abouts in the city are you going to be?
18:32 < kanzure> metro center
18:32 < streety> nice and central
18:33 < streety> I should definitely be able to leave the lab a little early and meet you
18:33 < kanzure> ok, i guess we can do it early, and wait around for nmz787 if you feel like it.
18:34 < kanzure> "Reason number 35235 that colonizing Mars is much more difficult than you thought: it doesn’t have a local electrical ground because, unlike Earth, the soil isn’t conductive."
18:34 < kanzure> from https://hackaday.com/2017/08/17/living-on-mars-the-stuff-you-never-thought-about/
18:35 < streety> sounds good
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18:59 < Storyteller> kanzure, i run the colonize earth project to help address problems like that. if you cannot solve simple homesteading trials here in rural areas and develop them, mars is out of the question
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19:01 < Storyteller> im currently developing a small acreage offgrid and documenting everything i can, once i have 'modern amenities', Im planning to publish the results and compare it to what it will take to get there on mars
19:01 < kanzure> i think people's incentive for mars (or orbital) development is much higher than antarctica development because the reputation points for antarctica are really low compared to first colony in orbit or whatever.
19:03 < Storyteller> id like to build luna city or mars central or something, anartica would be good. atm Im in rural US, but plan to spend some time overseas as well, africa, india, macedonia maybe. tibet
19:03 < Storyteller> there are significant advantages to orbital development. I still see Luna as a good next step
19:04 < kanzure> you are not replying to my point
19:05 < Storyteller> im not certain there is a lot of advantage to antarctica
19:05 < kanzure> you claimed it was essentially evidence that "mars is out of the question"
19:06 < Storyteller> Id not really considered antartica for development
19:06 < Storyteller> though I guess its a good a place as any, brutal cold and weather, desolate
19:07 < Storyteller> yeah, Id like to see a repeat of biodome there
19:08 < Storyteller> i mean in general though, you have people all 'i want to go to mars' and I dont think they could handle a month off grid without a fridge and central heat
19:09 < Storyteller> there is a year round station in antarctica right? I think that stands, so maybe Elon should invest in some training camps there for his colonists
19:13 < Storyteller> as for reputation, im not sure thats the case. Id say the impetus is in more complete freedom and escape from world governments. Even in antartica, you will have this looming shadow of earth governmental power over you. so getting to space/mars represents a certain freedom from that, this i think is the driver more than just reputation
19:14 < Storyteller> then again, first to everest, first to the north pole, first to dive the mariana trench, first to skydive from space, it does seem to drive a lot of people
19:21 < cluckj> lol
19:24 < Storyteller> so I noticed you guys had some projects you were interested in pursuing on your website
19:24 < Storyteller> are any of them pressing concerns, or just general topics of interest
19:35 < fltrz> I don't get it, people will collaborate in order to escape collaboration structures?
19:35 < cluckj> boop
19:36 < kanzure> fltrz: the reputational gain of colonizing your backyard is insignificant next to the career advantage of designing the bolts used to seal the orbital colony enclosures.
19:36 < fltrz> or people will go to space all by themselves and be free? they have a hard time behaving unreliant on world resources from all the world over
19:37 < fltrz> what is career advantage?
19:37 < kanzure> i'm not sure what your other question is.
19:37 < kanzure> career advantage is just some incentive i made up to help explain why talented people go do things that require talent
19:37 < fltrz> I think what you say is true, I was replying more to Storyteller I guess
19:37 < kanzure> alright
19:38 < kanzure> can't help you there
19:38 < Storyteller> ok, you have to main reasons to go to mars, resources and unclaimed land
19:39 < fltrz> I'm not denying that incentive by organisations (irrespective if the organization is a government, company, ... whatever) can motivate some people to further the goals of the organization
19:39 < kanzure> fltrz: regarding escape from certain collaboration structures, yes, i think some people would prefer to try entirely different collaborations.
19:39 < Storyteller> other than mineral rights, the idea of no longer being subject to the laws of 'a country' are probably appealing to groups and individuals that feel stifled by them
19:40 < kanzure> Storyteller: there are various projects that people in here are working on. stick around long enough and you might hear about them.
19:40 < Storyteller> ok
19:40 < kanzure> there's no catalog, though
19:40 < fltrz> kanzure: I also think most people desire (openly or secretly) another form of collaboration with each other
19:41 < Storyteller> im a federal contractor with privileges at an R1 research university, im not sure where overlap might be though
19:41 < fltrz> Storyteller: every organization tends to have rules, rules are not the consequence of "nations" but of people collaborating
19:41 < kanzure> fltrz: nah sometimes you just have to get out..
19:41 < Storyteller> sure
19:42 < Storyteller> consider the rise of medical research in india, due to less regulation by the US government
19:42 < fltrz> kanzure: I'm not defending current collaborative structures, it just seems weird to me when people think the least effort path to ending up in a better collaborative structure is off earth
19:43 < fltrz> Storyteller: kind of making my point, we don't need to go off earth to improve our collaboration structures
19:43 < Storyteller> if you want your own country you do
19:44 < cluckj> what do you need to be doing that you need your own country for?
19:44 < Storyteller> at a certain point, its just cheaper to go to mars, than buy a military and take one
19:44 < Storyteller> idk, ask Elon
19:44 < fltrz> I believe cryptocurrencies will be the fastest way to removing distinction of nationality
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19:45 < cluckj> whoops
19:45 < Storyteller> China just outlawed bitcoin, like yesterday or something
19:45 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/spacex/elon-musk-making-humans-a-multiplanetary-species/
19:45 < fltrz> Storyteller: I don't deny that endless war is more expensive than going to mars/colonizing it... it's just that I think we could have some more inspiration than doubt between 1) endless wars 2) go to mars
19:47 < fltrz> kanzure: I definitely agree that in the long term becoming multiplanetary species would drastically up our chances... but perhaps our chances of becoming multidisciplinary in the first place would be much higher if we found better collaboration structures
19:48 < Storyteller> nice, thx
19:52 < fltrz> *becoming multiplanetary
19:54 < fltrz> "do not open the airlock under this and this conditions" etc.. it seems like coordinating a group in hostile situations are by definition the origin of laws
19:54 < kanzure> ok
19:54 < fltrz> Storyteller: so I don't think you'll ever break free from laws
19:55 < Storyteller> fltrz, are you familiar with Lawrence Kohlberg?
19:56 < fltrz> Humans are escapists, the physicist pretends all his problems will be solved if only he cracks this specific *physics* problem, ... the same for the biologist, car factory worker etc
19:56 < fltrz> Storyteller: no, not yet
19:57 < Storyteller> what if everyone rose above the 4th stage of moral development?
19:58 < Storyteller> isnt one of the goals of posthumanism to evolve our society and not just our bodies?
19:58 < kanzure> no
19:58 < Storyteller> so humanity is defined by flesh, and not each other?
19:58 < kanzure> why would it matter what they define humonity as?
19:59 < Storyteller> what do you define it as?
19:59 < kanzure> i don't really tend to use that word unless i'm referring to a very large group of humans and usually in some sort of ironic or judgemental context
20:00 < Storyteller> the goal of posthumanism is to achieve 'being better humans', yes?
20:00 < kanzure> you were the one who brought up society, not me
20:00 < cluckj> maybe..getting past "human?"
20:01 < kanzure> cluckj: i don't actually know the entymology of posthumanism so it's possible that it's about some sort of societal bullcrap; but i'm pretty sure it's strictly an unnecessary component.
20:01 < Storyteller> well, any current society is inadequate for more evolved beings. it works for humans now. if societal change or improvement is not a goal, it will certainly be an effect.
20:01 < Storyteller> if people evolve, so too will the dynamic of their interaction
20:02 < kanzure> yawn
20:02 < Storyteller> eg, if people are telepathic, you may have new laws regarding privacy
20:02 < Storyteller> if their reaction speed is much faster, you may allow higher speed limits, etc
20:03 < cluckj> kanzure, it's a pretty vague term and can mean a lot of things
20:03 < kanzure> this is useless
20:03 < cluckj> yes
20:06 < cluckj> Storyteller, you're not thinking big enough. if a 'simple' technology like the internet can create such massive social upheaval, it's going to be even more massive for the constitution of human bodies
20:07 < Storyteller> yes, and merely changing the individual is only one aspect. society itself will change, just as the internet changed it
20:07 < Storyteller> trans/post/extra-humanism reaches far further than just the flesh
20:07 < cluckj> there may be no individuals
20:08 < Storyteller> have you read schroedinger's 'mind and matter'?
20:08 < cluckj> no
20:08 < Storyteller> its a good read
20:08 < Storyteller> are you familiar with determinism as a counter to free will?
20:08 < cluckj> oh, it's in what is life?
20:09 < cluckj> yes I've read that
20:09 < fltrz> cluckj: could you elaborate on "there may be no individuals" ? this is like a long term perspective, uploaded minds deciding to merge (connect their brains with huge amount of emulated synapses or smth?)
20:09 < Storyteller> ok, so should some form of quantum element of consciousness exist, it may be that improvement of the body has limited impact on human evolution
20:10 < cluckj> fltrz, the concept of individuality that we currently have is historically contingent; it wasn't always the way it is now
20:10 < Storyteller> it may be a societal or eve I dare say, spiritual change
20:11 < Storyteller> at the very least, ignoring intrapersonal and interpersonal development over pure biology, seems like folly
20:11 < fltrz> cluckj: not sure what you mean with individuality here, the baudrate of communication channels between neurons in different skulls (say speach and hearing, or body language and vision) has always been much lower than the baudrate between neurons in the same skull
20:11 < kanzure> alright this is not productive
20:12 < cluckj> lol
20:12 < kanzure> he has admited to heresy (consicoussness) and deserves to die
20:13 < cluckj> if you're defining individuality as some barrier between neurons, you need to know what neurons are and what they do
20:15 < cluckj> knowing those are a bit of a recent thing
20:16 < fltrz> I guess neurons process signals and store and recall information (I guess instead of "store and recall", "modify or use synapses unmodified")
20:20 < cluckj> what I'm saying is that whatever idea you have about individuality is based in this particular moment of history, and what it looks like in the future (especially one where we may have changed how our bodies work at a fundamental level) it might end up not being a useful term
20:21 < cluckj> i.e. it will be different in the future because it was different in the past
20:23 < fltrz> ok, I think we have similar views
20:23 < cluckj> I think so too
20:25 < fltrz> for a moment I thought that with a low probability you were saying something like "in the past slaves/women/whatever had no rights or substantial individuality, and this could/should return, it's not legally slavery or whatever if we deny them being humans" or whatever... glad it didn't turn out that way
20:27 < cluckj> oh god
20:27 < cluckj> lol
20:27 < cluckj> no
20:27 < fltrz> k, it's just.. internet these days..
20:29 < cluckj> I mean we now consider individuals as distinct entities (contained by some skin?), but it's only recently a useful category for organizing society
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20:31 < kanzure> still might not be a useful term
20:32 < cluckj> if you look at cyborgy folks who contain electronic components, or rely on them to exist, where can you draw that line of "individuality," since it's not at some easily observable fleshy bit...
20:32 < kanzure> this is boring
20:32 < cluckj> it's pretty useful for organizing economic labor at the moment
20:32 < kanzure> stop being boring
20:32 < cluckj> sorry
20:32 < kanzure> no it's all of you
20:35 < fltrz> cluckj: we could continue in ##identitypoliticsroadmap :P just kidding, play-annoying kanzure
20:35 < cluckj> lmao
20:35 < kanzure> careful where you point the identity politics death ray, because your target might have an even better death ray to point back
20:36 < fltrz> thats sounds like a well-formed identity speaking :P
20:36 < cluckj> well-formed and cranky
20:39 < fltrz> i'm looking for a comprehensive survey/review of different kinds of entangled photon sources.. I know theres cascade decays, non-linear crystals / SHG-in-reverse / SPDC, and quantum dots, .. but I don't really find a comprehensive enumeration, let alone one that is recent?
20:41 < fltrz> well and the positron-electron decay.. but was thinking of optical regime
20:41 < Storyteller> im off for the night, its late and philosophical discussion of the ramifications of human evolution on society and individuality  are fascinating, I do have work tomorrow.
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21:46 < fltrz> I wonder if a laser emitting in both directions would emit entangled photons, i.e. instead of one quasi perfect mirror and one with reflectivity R (typically still extremely close to 1), so instead of that 2 mirrors with reflectivity sqrt(R) for the same laser setup
21:46 < fltrz> such that round trip amplification is identical to the original laser
21:48 < fltrz> (the lasing medium is nonlinear just as nonlinear crystals)
21:49 < fenn> you'd need the two mirrors to have exactly the same impedance?
21:50 < fenn> reflectivity
21:50 < fltrz> they wouldn't have to be exact, but similar
21:50 < fltrz> in assymetry one beam would contain more non-entangled photons
21:51 < fltrz> pure speculation btw, but if someone knows someone to ask.. (I friend of mine is in photonics, so I'll ask if he can ask some of his colleagues/mentors)
22:21 < kanzure> .title https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-September/014983.html
22:21 < yoleaux> [bitcoin-dev] Responsible disclosure of bugs
22:43 < fltrz> I am of course not against responsible behaviour by whoever finds bugs, but the concept of "responsible disclosure" seems to be one that was largely pumped into prominence if not largely originated, by surveillance state imho, by creating CVE etc, whoever runs/has power over CVE etc basically gets free 0-days in the name of security
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22:45 < fltrz> the concept of "responsible disclosure" by being simultaneously a name for a supposedly safe behaviour and simultaneously a description irks me
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22:48 < fltrz> i.e. the centralizing supposedly safe behaviour of contacting authorities (irrespective of government, or "the" developer) is _proclaimed safe by name_ : a promoted model behaviour is called "responsible disclosure" instead of proven to be "responsible"
22:50 < fltrz> imho the targeted infiltration of cryptography circles (like commitees manipulated into knowingly or not subverting random generators and protocols) and cryptography software implementations is hard as long as its decentralized
22:50 < fltrz> while if it is highly centralized, it is easier to target
22:51 < fltrz> that is why a desired behaviour (centralization) is promoted under the guise of the title "responsible disclosure"
22:52 < fltrz> it is inherently against decentralized open-source movement, and the desired behaviour which is not actually proven safe is demonstrably unsafe in the decentralized setting (by design imho)
22:53 < fltrz> i.e. suppose you are an attacker and you wish to be informed of new 0-days, then you fork a project and insist on being informed of 0-days
22:53 < fltrz> one's responsible disclosure is another's irresponsible disclosure and vice versa
22:54 < maaku> andytoshi: you moved to kansas city permanently?
22:55 < fltrz> it would be better imho to have a potentially vulnerable client that reconnects to a protocol (bitcoin whatever) to refuse operation if developers signed a vulnerability message (even though they don't know the vulnerability)
22:56 < fltrz> then all developers are informed of the vulnerability details (including potential attackers in disguise as developers)
22:57 < fltrz> then each implementation can fix the problem
22:57 < fltrz> without any users or clients at risk
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22:58 < fltrz> let's call this 'open responsible disclosure'
22:59 < fltrz> not only is it more open, it is also more responsible: if the discoverer of the 0-day informs the group of a 0-day, all users pause execution of the protocol until the problem is resolved in their specific client. so they are protected from harm
23:00 < fltrz> while submitting via CVE or the developers directly, there could be spooks/criminals abusing their prior knowledge (i.e. prior to the end users updating their clients)
23:01 < fltrz> i.e. suppose *you* found a 0-day, do you trust CVE or the every developer? do you trust every involved developers security practices?
23:02 < fltrz> this does allow for a specific attack though: DoS by pretense of 0-day... so basically you set a cost for announcing 0-day
23:03 < fltrz> beginning 0-day finders either loan money etc
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23:04 < fltrz> somehow the group rewards the discoverer and returns the bail for announcing the 0-day when details did indeed show a problem
23:05 < maaku> andytoshi: oh hurricane Harvey escape I presume?
23:05 < maaku> I didn't know you were back in Texas already. Hope you (and your things) are safe.
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23:08 < maaku> fltrz: giving developers the ability to remotely shut off nodes kinda goes against the spirit of bitcoin
23:09 < fltrz> maaku: in practice a short reversal of history is equivalent, and the erased "continued operation" is cosmetic only
23:10 < fltrz> like the integer overflow early on in bitcoin history
23:11 < fltrz> also, different implementations can have developers who refuse to sign the message... risking their user's finances
23:12 < fltrz> if you want the illusion of extra independanceness from developers you just get the client where the functionality is disabled... and potentially risk funds
23:16 < fltrz> it would also be all nodes or no nodes being shut off (or execution limited to a small verifiable base of code, i.e. gossiping the signed warning/halting message, waiting for anounced update)
23:17 < fltrz> (for a specific client)
23:19 < fltrz> I think dumbing down on the end-user to increase the "feeling of safety" is never a good idea, and ultimately results in the user feeling betrayed when SHTF, for example imagine being a user, and reading about a still-unsolved 0-day... but commerce is still continuing?
23:21 < fltrz> if I were a user, and knew that CVE et al did not get early sneak peeks, I'd feel more confident in a protocol
23:22 < fltrz> even at the occasional expense of understandable temporary unavailability
23:24 < fltrz> people go through huge lengths of effort because they don't trust the potential backdoors in their hardware/firmware, .. but then supposedly don't care if they are kept in the dark for a couple of weeks, while select groups of people have access to 0-day?
23:25 < fltrz> being called "responsible disclosure" does not make it so... its like "PNE's" if its called "peaceful nuclear explosions" it must be so
23:27 < maaku> fltrz: are you referencing this?
23:27 < maaku> .wik peaceful nuclear explosions
23:27 < yoleaux> "Peaceful nuclear explosions (PNEs) are nuclear explosions conducted for non-military purposes, such as activities related to economic development including the creation of canals. During the 1960s and 1970s, both the United States and the Soviet Union conducted a number of PNEs." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peaceful_nuclear_explosions
23:27 < maaku> cause those are peaceful, and awesome
23:27 < fltrz> i believe i am not alone, and a lot of users would be mature enough to tolerate unavailability
23:29 < fltrz> whats peaceful about extorting the taxpayer in order to do some vanity projects that clear up the gross cold-war image of scientist involvement in WMD's? if 'we' do it it's cool, if NK does it it's not??\
23:30 < maaku> fltrz: it's not about unavailability. what if they decide to shut off your node for other reasons? or because they were coerced to?
23:30 < maaku> building a kill-switch into a decentralized system defeats the entire purpose of it
23:30 < fltrz> well the developers can not target a specific node, .. this node would still gossip it to the group
23:32 < fltrz> maaku: that worry is justified, but easily circumvented: the implementation has a manual bypass in the settings for example,... if the 0-day was announced, and after some time the 0-day submitter submits no description you continue operation... if there was you can assess how credulous it is
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23:41 < fltrz> i'm not against nuclear devices in and off themselves,... I love the sun for example, and I think nuclear rocket engines are an option to keep open for space travel in case we don't make wormholes etc, but by now the historical record is very clear that there was a plain simple white-wash propaganda campaign to allow smart people to be bribed into WMD research
23:42 < fltrz> and to promote public acceptance of nuclear research unconditionally
23:42 < fltrz> sorry not research but development
23:43 < fltrz> PNE's, getting X-ray in silly situations like buying shoes.. if you want to know if a shoe will fit, just try it on ffs
23:44 -!- HEx1 [~HEx@hexwab.plus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:44 < fltrz> the scientists wanted to be able to go home to friends and family and have something to say about their job without having to admit they work on WMD for money
23:47 < fltrz> if there were no peaceful applications of nuclear explosions etc, they'de be left with little to say, and everyone would automatically suspect it
23:57 < fltrz> project Chariot: "It was never carried out due to concerns for the native populations and the fact that there was little potential use for the harbor to justify its risk and expense. "
23:58 < fltrz> the Sedan nuclear test: "Three tests were conducted in order to stimulate natural gas production, but the effort was abandoned as impractical because of cost and radioactive contamination of the gas."
23:59 < fltrz> "There were many negative impacts from Project Plowshare’s 27 nuclear explosions. For example, the Gasbuggy site,[6] located 55 miles east of Farmington, New Mexico, still contains nuclear contamination from a single subsurface blast in 1967"
23:59 < fltrz> "Other consequences included blighted land, relocated communities, tritium-contaminated water, radioactivity, and fallout from debris being hurled high into the atmosphere."
23:59 < fltrz> ^ very peaceful
23:59 < fltrz> "These were ignored and downplayed until the program was terminated in 1977, due in large part to public opposition, after $770 million had been spent on the project'
23:59 < fltrz> thats it, the US PNE program
--- Log closed Tue Sep 12 00:00:16 2017