--- Log opened Sat Oct 14 00:00:45 2017
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03:26 < kanzure> weird how that paper only mentions nickase like 4 times even though it's like the most important component
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09:39 < heath> which paper?
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10:12 < kanzure> enzyme-driven whatsits
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10:32 < heath> thanks
10:52 < kanzure> be greeted, earthlung
11:04 < maaku> aeiousomething: pong
11:06 < maaku> nmz787: sorry I'm out of town or I'd offer something
11:22 < kanzure> http://www.nicehair.org/increase-scalp-pge2-decrease-pgd2-cure-hair-loss/
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12:27 < aeiousomething> hi maaku
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13:26 < kanzure> http://blog.ptsecurity.com/2017/04/intel-me-way-of-static-analysis.html
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13:33 < heath> stream of robot combat from makerfaire denver: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6OI0j9sQNE
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13:44 < kanzure> .wik zealandia
13:44 < yoleaux> "Zealandia ( /ziːˈlændiə/), also known as the New Zealand continent or Tasmantis, is a nearly submerged mass of continental crust that sank after breaking away from Australia 60–85 million years ago, having separated from Antarctica between 85 and 130 million years ago." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zealandia
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15:22 < kanzure> http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/50406/title/Making-DNA-Data-Storage-a-Reality/
15:23 < kanzure> https://scout.ai/story/the-next-software-revolution-will-rewrite-life-as-we-know-it
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16:31 < heath> "Drugs could be designed that are personalized to every patient, and available at a fraction of the cost of prescription medicine now." -- how do you get to this point?
16:33 < kanzure> cheap lab equipment
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16:57 < heath> we still have outrageous costs in the trial period
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17:01 < kanzure> clinical trials? skip them. you don't need a clinical trial for a pair of shoes.
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17:37 < kanzure> maaku: hehe luke-jr is not so happy about designer babies https://twitter.com/LukeDashjr/status/919346992660271104
17:38 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/4LOVofScience/status/918867424039936000
17:38 < yoleaux> The First Human CRISPR Experiment http://www.ifyoudontknownowyaknow.com/2017/10/the-first-human-to-attempt-crispr-gene.html #CRISPR #Biohacker (@4LOVofScience)
17:39 < kanzure> http://www.ifyoudontknownowyaknow.com/2017/10/the-first-human-to-attempt-crispr-gene.html
17:51 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/nirvanadev/status/919364204058038272
17:51 < yoleaux> @kanzure @RichardHeartWin Bryan, we haven’t met & you’re clearly charming, but I think you can’t bed that many women in the next 28 years. (@nirvanadev, in reply to tw:918606697479929856)
17:56 < kanzure> 17:55 < kanzure> gwern: not sure why they think i want to personally sire a million kiddos
17:56 < kanzure> 17:55 <@gwern> perhaps they misread your nick as 'Khanzure'
17:56 < fenn> KHAAAAAAAN ... zure
17:57 < kanzure> getting down and genghis with it
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17:58 < kanzure> 17:57 <@gwern> 'ah yes, I see the Great Khanzure is up late tonight with his harem, doing his ghenghis engineering to produce more noble children'
17:59 < fenn> .title http://youtu.be/wRnSnfiUI54
17:59 < yoleaux> KHAAAAAAN! - YouTube
18:00 < kanzure> your lore is out of date, it's about noonian soong or something
18:00 < kanzure> oh same person, nevermind
18:01 < kanzure> 18:00 < Betawolf> The various outcast tribes had always been a problem for mainstream academia, but it wasn't until a great leader united them that they could effectively conquer it.
18:01 < fenn> khan "controlled more than a quarter of the Earth during the Eugenics Wars of the 1990s"
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18:04 < fenn> well i suppose it may have happened
18:05 < kanzure> superior ability breeds superior ambition
18:09 < kanzure> 18:08 <@gwern> ggreer: as I've said several times, embryo selection for intelligence could (almost) be done right now but the gain is quite small, like a fraction of a point
18:09 < kanzure> 18:08 < kanzure> superior ability breeds superior ambition
18:09 < kanzure> 18:09 < ggreer> gwern: isn't that because we can't write the genes we want into the embryo? we're gaining knowledge of which genes influence IQ
18:09 < kanzure> 18:09 < kanzure> ggreer: you can get lots of cool features but not necessarily IQ. for example, 20% improved working memory is a simple change.
18:09 < kanzure> 18:09 < kanzure> you don't have to write genes... you want to write mutations.
18:10 < kanzure> 18:10 <@gwern> ggreer: no no. embryo selection is limited mostly by the number of embryos
18:10 < kanzure> 18:10 < kanzure> what we need is an embryo fountain
18:10 < fenn> apparently gwern isn't up to day on cell reprogramming
18:10 < fenn> up to date*
18:11 < kanzure> i've told him that before and he still likes his nick bostrom embryo selection paper.
18:11 < kanzure> although recently he has looked more closely at genome synthesis and crispr
18:11 < kanzure> but personally i think he's an idiot so...
18:11 < kanzure> 18:11 < glass|> what's stopping them from creating a zygote from scratch?
18:11 < kanzure> 18:11 < kanzure> glass|: cost.  genome synthesis is pretty expensive right now. many tens of millions of dollars.
18:12 < fenn> i mean we can reprogram cells to become embryos
18:13 < fenn> .title www.nature.com/articles/nature20104
18:13 < yoleaux> Reconstitution in vitro of the entire cycle of the mouse female germ line : Nature : Nature Research
18:15 < kanzure> 18:15 < kanzure> gwern: i bet you could get more economic and scientific impact merely by choosing mutations that increase ambition, drive, curiosity, personality traits, working memory, etc, even with modest IQ.
18:15 < kanzure> (without hyping up IQ)
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18:16 < fenn> the gmaxwell and george church mutations would be worth a lot too
18:17 < kanzure> let's refrain from identifying the victims from which we source k?
18:17 < fenn> pff you don't own your dna
18:17 < kanzure> privacy tho
18:18 < kanzure> that's all i mean
18:18 < fenn> well since we haven't isolated any specific genetic markers, i don't have any other identifiers
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18:18 < kanzure> i'm not upset. just recommending we keep such things slightly private.
18:18 < fenn> bah
18:19 < fenn> i thought you were all about controversy now
18:19 < kanzure> not by harming my friends
18:19 < fenn> sorry dude, but privacy is the number one impediment to harnessing genomics
18:20 < kanzure> 18:20 <@gwern> so IQ/$ will increase over time as the PGS increases with occasional big jumps based on how well the other limits get lifted and your risk tolerance - are you up for CRISPRing in some of kanzure's suggestions? then maybe you can quadruple your gains
18:24 < kanzure> 18:23 <@gwern> (embryo selection *really* needs more eggs/embryos to work with. harvesting a median of 5 from each woman doing IVF just isn't enough to work with when you lose most of them and are effectively selecting from 2 or less)
18:24 < kanzure> 18:23 < glass|> adiabatic: https://www.wikidoc.org/index.php/Rimonabant#Side_effects
18:24 < kanzure> 18:24 < glass|> adiabatic: may improve short term memory
18:24 < fenn> www.nature.com/articles/nature20104  www.nature.com/articles/nature20104  www.nature.com/articles/nature20104  www.nature.com/articles/nature20104  www.nature.com/articles/nature20104  www.nature.com/articles/nature20104
18:26 < kanzure> er..
18:26 < kanzure> oh.
18:26 < kanzure> yeah i don't think they read biology
18:26 < kanzure> i told them the link earlier
18:32 < kanzure> 18:31 < kanzure> photosynthesis is not strong enough to power humans. you would need an enormous surface area.
18:32 < kanzure> 18:32 < kanzure> your surface area would need to be several square kilometers according to anders sandberg
18:32 < kanzure> 18:32 < vectorspacealien> kanzure: good thing I'm going to move to space and solar sail around with my gigantic flat body
18:33 < kanzure> 18:32 < ggreer> if photosynthesis was as efficient as solar cells, then we'd have plants that could get up and run around like animals (though not as active as warm-blooded animals)
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18:39 < kanzure> 18:33 < ggreer> kanzure: that seems too large. each human doesn't need several square km of crops to survive
18:39 < kanzure> 18:38 < c0rw1n_> stop motivatedly reasoning and just admit that you want to be green and photosynthetic for aesthetic reasons
18:39 < kanzure> 18:38 < c0rw1n_> morphological freedom doesn't need to be Efficient
18:39 < kanzure> 18:39 < Douhet> c0rw1n_, just imagine, if every African was green and genetically related to khanzure
18:39 < kanzure> 18:38 < c0rw1n_> who cares
18:40 < kanzure> 18:39 < c0rw1n_> Douhet: they're already more genetically related to kanzure than they are to trees
18:41 < fenn> a human burns 100W (thermal), photosynthesis is 2% efficient, sunlight is 1kW/m^2 therefore you need 5 m^2 of sunlight, facing the sun
18:42 < fenn> boosting photosynthesis efficiency could get it into the self sufficient range, however you will probably overheat and die without other modifications
18:44 < kanzure> 5 square meters is significantly less, hmm.
18:46 < kanzure> 18:41 < Douhet> re-writing paternity is one way to accomplish the "1 million genetic descendants" goal
18:46 < kanzure> 18:41 < c0rw1n_> he said designed, not descended
18:46 < kanzure> 18:41 < c0rw1n_> lrn2read
18:46 < kanzure> hell yeah we have a reader
18:48 < kanzure> 18:45 < Douhet> kanzure, would doing something silly like re-writing paternity be impossible? It /seems/ catastrophic in a living specimen, and that assuming it's not just one giant deadly cancer.
18:48 < kanzure> 18:46 < Douhet> kanzure, wouldn't it just be making modifications such that a person could be considered your descendant?
18:48 < kanzure> 18:47 < vectorspacealien> omg that sounds like becoming a virus
18:48 < kanzure> virus khan
18:48 < Jenda> it should be immediately obvious that square kilometers to power a human is wrong -- the Earth has 500 million sq.km, 7 billion people and virtually all food is created by photosynthesis
18:48 < kanzure> 18:48 < vectorspacealien> oh, this isn't a way to become a father to someone, but when someone's still an embryo you can replace them as a parent
18:49 < Jenda> so even with current efficiency, we are at 0.07 sq.km per inhabitant
18:49 < Jenda> (powering the entire ecosystem as a side-effect :)
18:50 < kanzure> heath wanted to make giant humans
18:50 < fenn> 13 million km^2 of cropland
18:50 < kanzure> but i think the power isn't going to scale right if you want to make a giant human
18:51 < fenn> hm i guess this neglects fishing and pasture
18:51 < kanzure> you need low-energy giant fins on the human
18:51 < fenn> oh wait it includes pasture land
18:52 < fenn> bah "40% of Earth's land surface is used for cropland and pasture, or an estimated 1.3×107 km2 of cropland and 3.4×107 km2 of pastureland"
18:53 < kanzure> so we are only inefficient by a power of 10?
18:53 < kanzure> globally
18:55 < fenn> we should be able to support 2600 billion humans (based on food energy consumption alone, neglecting water and fertilizer and so on)
18:56 < fenn> also with 2600 billion humans there would be some kind of effort to increase the amount of cropland
18:56 < fenn> currently we are letting it degrade and wash away in rivers and stuff
18:56 < fenn> also there are nuclear reactors.. ahem
18:57 < Jenda> Nope. For direct photosynthesis you need 50m2 (because of nights and cloudy days). All humans therefore need 350000 km2, which is 0.2 % of land.
18:57 < fenn> oh i forgot about night
18:57 < Jenda> [to the efficiency argument]
18:57 < Jenda> so we are about 100x inefficient
18:57 < night> don't you forget about me
18:57 < kanzure> well you can eliminate night, if necessary
18:58 < fenn> night: the neighbors have been blasting 80s music all day.. please spare me
18:58  * night takes it back
18:58 < kanzure> you can use giant reflectors to eliminate night on the other side of the planet
18:59 < kanzure> at the cost of increasing the temperature
18:59 < kanzure> but you could also reduce the total sunlight by using starshades anyway... maybe make it more even or whatever.
18:59 < fenn> you can use hypersonic ice fountains to radiate extra heat into space...
19:00 < Jenda> I still don't get it why they don't solve global warming by nuclear winter
19:00 < fenn> plants only use like 20% of the available sunlight anyway
19:00 < fenn> in addition to being inefficient
19:00 < fenn> stupid plants!
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19:03 < kanzure> well we should fix that
19:07 < kanzure> yashgaroth: so what do you say, you gonna become a plant
19:08 < yashgaroth> I do like the color green
19:08 < kanzure> not what i was expecting, but fair enough
19:09 < yashgaroth> I also enjoy being enormous and flat, but that's secondary
19:11 < kanzure> "Complete genes may pass from food to human blood" http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0069805
19:12 < kanzure> gene therapy food
19:14 < kanzure> "You are what you eat: How one man's quest to eat every mammal turned him into a cow"
19:17 < kanzure> 19:06 <@gwern> (I wonder if that myostatin mutation prolonges life given all the genetic correlates & mendelian randomizations of grip strength or muscle mass with good health/longevity)
19:17 < kanzure> 19:09 < kanzure> not always; myostatin turns out to be important for ligaments.
19:17 < kanzure> 19:09 <@gwern> ah... the perfect drawback. super strength - but if you exert it to the heroic utmost, you may cripple yourself! builtin dramatic tension to every fight
19:17 < kanzure> i'm not sure where i got that from
19:19 < yashgaroth> less so if you start inhibition in adulthood, but yes
19:20 < kanzure> what was your alternative proposal again
19:20 < kanzure> sorry for my lapse in memory
19:21 < yashgaroth> if it's in designer people, you can put the inhibitor under an inducible promoter rather than just knocking out myostatin
19:21 < kanzure> no no i mean you had an alternative target. follistatin?
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19:22 < yashgaroth> well follistatin etc. still target myostatin, they just work on other pathways too, so they generate more muscle than specifically targeting myostatin
19:22 < yashgaroth> if you have them overexpressed from birth it'll probably still mess with tendons
19:24 < yashgaroth> or you can have them membrane-bound specifically in muscle...there's a few options
19:24 < kanzure> we know how to do promoters that only work in myocytes and muscle?
19:25 < yashgaroth> alpha-myosin promoter is the usual one
19:25 < kanzure> welp. alright.
19:25 < kanzure> can we do specific targeting to any of the ~200 cell lines in the human body?
19:26 < yashgaroth> if they're a differentiated tissue, then you can usually use whatever genes they have that are specific to that tissue; I wouldn't guarantee all of them, but nearly all yes
19:26 < yashgaroth> promoters for those genes, that is
19:26 < kanzure> oh alright.
19:26 < kanzure> that's great news
19:26 < kanzure> wasn't aware that we had that figured out already
19:28 < yashgaroth> I don't know how it is with highly intermingled types like different brain cells, since it's hard to isolate a pure sample for microarray analysis, but otherwise
19:28 < kanzure> right... but at least heart vs brain
19:28 < yashgaroth> oh definitely
19:30 < kanzure> very cool. we shuld just load up the kidney/lungs with the modifications and release all kinds of shit.
19:33 < yashgaroth> well, yeah
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21:24 < adlai> 01:50:49          kanzure | heath wanted to make giant humans  << needs to read more vonnegut
21:25 < adlai> specifically, Slapstick. terrible book, but quite short, and there are enough funny bits to make the terrible parts worth skimming
21:25 < adlai> spoiler: the chinese vanish, due to miniaturization. economies of scale work in multiple dimensions.
21:26 < adlai> book is told from perspective of non-chinese americans, who degenerate into poverty-stricken idiocy and posturing after electing a populist president
21:27  * adlai isn't talking politics, merely quoting scifi
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--- Log closed Sun Oct 15 00:00:46 2017