--- Log opened Sun Nov 05 00:00:06 2017
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07:09 < kanzure> yerp.
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09:31 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=e1a9c341 Bryan Bishop: more >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/stanford-2017/state-of-cryptography/
09:41 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=9cc3c302 Bryan Bishop: more >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/stanford-2017/joi-ito/
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10:18 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=a354446a Bryan Bishop: more >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/stanford-2017/how-to-charge-lightning/
10:22 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=7d53ac0e Bryan Bishop: more >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/stanford-2017/how-to-charge-lightning/
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10:27 < kanzure> yerp..
10:45 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=d095ce1e Bryan Bishop: more >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/stanford-2017/using-the-chain-for-what-chains-are-good-for/
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10:52 < heath> Efficient base determination in sequencing reactions https://www.google.com/patents/EP2565279B1
10:53 < heath> somewhat related to previously linked patent: Molecular programming tools https://www.google.com/patents/WO2017143006A1
10:55 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=b283768d Bryan Bishop: more >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/stanford-2017/using-the-chain-for-what-chains-are-good-for/
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12:11 < razzy> nmz787: More usefull will be to educate parents :]
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12:14 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=7a890064 Bryan Bishop: more >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/stanford-2017/incentives-tradeoffs-transaction-selection-in-dag-based-protocols/
12:22 < razzy> kanzure: need breed superior motivation :] sometimes bring death in long run :]
12:22 < nmz787> razzy: hmm?
12:24 < nmz787> razzy: what were you responding to, about educating parents?
12:25 < razzy> nmz787: sorry, i had very motivated but very stupid dad, and it was hell :]
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12:31 < razzy> nmz787: my father made worst parenting decisions based on overmotivation and stupidity on his part :]. I would be better of if he just stay out the way and just bring money and food ;]
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12:35 < nmz787> razzy: I guess you're referring to my questions of ways to better shove world history /all of humanity's knowledge into an infant in an automated way?
12:36 < nmz787> razzy: I like to think I won't do the things I hated my parents for doing to me
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12:38 < razzy> nmz787: yes, i was emotionally horified :]
12:41 < razzy> nmz787: also, i would love parent who would put himself to knowledge implanting rig and try it for 20years to see if there is any negative effect :]
12:47 < kanzure> maaku: https://www.genomeweb.com/cancer/auburn-u-gen9-autodesk-collaborate-synthetic-oncolytic-virus-treat-cancer-dogs
12:48 < nmz787> razzy: I was thinking more of bootstrapping, not long-term
12:49 < nmz787> razzy: can you explain why you feel emotionally horrified? Personally I don't think I've ever remembered anything prior to about age 3
12:50 < nmz787> so not sure why attempting to train using correlated audio/visual data would be horrible
12:51 < nmz787> razzy: once a kid is sufficiently trained, it will begin self-learning. I did this starting at probably age 3, and it was obviously advanced once I could read around probably 5 or 6
13:01 < razzy> nmz787: I only think I remember fuzzy feelings to persons from before I was 3 years old. But I remember clearly, when my brother was born, when I was 3 years old. I think, there is comprimation going on :]
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13:06 < razzy> nmz787: I was horified by your lack of humbleness for nature millenia of experience in growing childs :] (no offence)
13:09 < nmz787> razzy: there's been exponential information increase in last ~2 millenia... so evolution has millions/billions of years to catch up to needing to reload (each newborn) the insane amount of information we've accumulated
13:11 < nmz787> kanzure: is that SRC summary report link open to share?
13:11 < kanzure> not yet
13:11 < kanzure> it's not public
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13:11 < nmz787> kanzure: or should I just cut and paste the Fig 1 image, about data generation trends
13:12 < kanzure> AFAIK
13:12 < nmz787> maybe I can google image search that one first
13:14 < nmz787> razzy: https://imgur.com/a/hhBEJ
13:14 < nmz787> razzy: total bits stored vs year (starting in -600 BC)
13:15 < nmz787> err, I guess BC is the same as saying -
13:16 < razzy> nmz787: yes I know about our information overload problem
13:17 < razzy> nmz787: I will focus on practical side. Child will not understand the importance of data showed non forcefully
13:17 < razzy> nmz787: if you force it, you will have great chance to do damage
13:18 < razzy> nmz787: if your child will see you reading the book, or reciting knowledge. imho you have better chance.
13:20 < razzy> nmz787: imho the mos important things for you as a child is how your body works, and how the world around you works
13:20 < nmz787> razzy: yes but I can't read books to it all day, some times I might need to go on the roof to clean it of fallen leaves.. those times instead of putting cartoons on for it to pacify with, why not show it numbers one at a time, with the audio sound of that number?
13:21 < nmz787> how is forcing cartoons or other mindless things better than forcing meaningful correlations?
13:21 < nmz787> you force everything on a baby until it can take care of itself and be responsible
13:22 < razzy> nmz787: there is force and force :] i guess :]
13:22 < nmz787> ?
13:22 < nmz787> there is force and then there is being a lazy parent
13:24 < razzy> nmz787: use of any force or action depend on context. you could drive grown up person crazy just with spreadsheets :]
13:25 < razzy> or to suicide :]
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13:25 < nmz787> personally I feel retarded because my parents weren't more active and engaged with math and science... luckily "evolution works" and yes I turned out alright... but I literally feel like I could be more advanced with math today if I started learning earlier
13:25 < nmz787> (retarded being an antonym of advanced)
13:26 < razzy> nmz787: I would like to make a special kinds of toys for my child :]. full of processing power and LED diodes :]
13:27 < razzy> interactive, buzzing, squeking, computing :] and also a dog if it is older :]
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13:33 < razzy> nmz787: I beleive that doing nothing is sometimes best course of action :]
13:34 < razzy> (for child)
13:45 < nmz787> maybe, but I already knew that... I want to learn how to not waste the precious time during early development to setup a better architecture than my mind is setup as
13:48 < razzy> nmz787: the lesson from my childhood is, you can make childhood of your child only little better if you are working alone. good community is key :]
13:51 < nmz787> mmm
13:51 < nmz787> I had a few good mentors, not really too many bad mentors
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13:55 < razzy> nmz787: even if you think that somebody is bad mentor/unfit for duty, he could be helpfull in educating some types of personalities you have no experience with.
13:56 < razzy> nmz787: i like this kind of communities
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13:56 < razzy> nmz787: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudbury_school
13:56 < nmz787> .wik subury school
13:56 < yoleaux> "A Sudbury school is a type of school, usually for the K-12 age range, where students have complete responsibility for their own education, and the school is run by direct democracy in which students and staff are equals." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudbury_school
13:56 < nmz787> razzy: I always wished my parents homeschooled me
13:57 < razzy> yoleaux: yes, it is for older, but type of community is what i want to show
13:58 < nmz787> razzy: my wife grew up in india, and she said school was way less hours than here in the U.S., and she studied most of the time she was at home
13:58 < nmz787> I always hated having to wake up early for school
13:58 < nmz787> and often would simply skip school, staying home to read or self-learn otherwise
13:59 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=4575c46c Bryan Bishop: more >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/stanford-2017/changes-without-unanimous-consent/
14:00 < razzy> yoleaux: nmz787, in my opinion, the best way is to have broad age-range so you could test your ideas on 2year older kid, it is much shorter iteration cycle than trying to remember how was your childhood
14:01 < nmz787> razzy: yoleaux is a bot
14:01 < razzy> :D :D :D :D :D :D
14:01 < nmz787> razzy: you can use .wik or .title on URLs... I think it can do other stuff
14:02 < nmz787> .g sudbury schools
14:02 < yoleaux> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudbury-Schulen
14:02 < razzy> nice :]
14:02 < nmz787> .g is for googling things, I guess it returns the "I'm feeling lucky" result
14:02 < yoleaux> https://www.lifewire.com/im-feeling-lucky-button-1616813
14:02 < razzy> :]
14:02 < razzy> i know
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14:05 < razzy> nmz787: do you like community idea?
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14:11 < nmz787> sounds a little better than the public school I went to
14:13 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=5b0d3903 Bryan Bishop: more >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/stanford-2017/optimizing-fee-estimation-via-mempool-state/
14:19 < razzy> nmz787: did i explain shorter interation times when educating in community?
14:20 < nmz787> do you mean like the Sudbury schools, or just like, having other humans that interact with the parents+child unit?
14:20 < nmz787> .wik nuclear family
14:20 < yoleaux> "A nuclear family, elementary family or conjugal family is a family group consisting of two parents and their children (one or more). It is in contrast to a single-parent family, to the larger extended family, and to a family with more than two parents." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_family
14:23 < razzy> nmz787: i mean mix between Sudbury school and community of ~100 families raising childs
14:23 < razzy> nmz787: so you can learn from mistakes other parents did :]
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14:33 < nmz787> razzy: problem is when you're somewhat antisocial, or just have lots of existing self-learning planned... being social is hard
14:36 < razzy> nmz787: I am telling you benefits of social systems. they are usefull on hard complex problems. Surviving in the wild, child upbringing in complex society :]
14:36 < razzy> *modern society
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14:38 < nmz787> razzy: I look for buying remote land in wilderness areas all the time, actually
14:45 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=f0edd097 Bryan Bishop: more >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/stanford-2017/redesigning-bitcoin-fee-market/
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16:15 < fltrz> razzy: nmz787 , I have some specific ideas with regards to education, and promoting independence of the child, so it can save itself from the negative effects of its parents, or save itself from any interaction with its parents in case of horrible parents
16:16 < fltrz> in a reversible manner, such that if parents know this, they are motivated to give their children a good education yet a happy youth
16:17 < fltrz> but, ... my exposition would require modal logic statements on morality and justice which are not really appropriate in this channel
16:20 < fltrz> razzy: you made a statement that is particularly relevant: "my father made worst parenting decisions based on overmotivation and stupidity on his part :]. I would be better of if he just stay out the way and just bring money and food ;]"
16:22 < fltrz> if you want to hear my proposal I suggest you join #neutraleducation
16:22 < fltrz> and wait a while so others can join if they wish
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17:56 < ebowden> Is hothousing your kids actually effective? I can understand why parents who homeschool might call it a "full time job", it's a lot of effort to make your kids as weird as possible.
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18:33 < fltrz> ebowden: hothousing insinuates study under force (forcing timing of study, forcing subject of study, forcing the school of thought), but I do believe in rewarding the child for study (if the child can choose when to start and stop a session, can choose the subject, choose the school of thought)
18:37 < fltrz> that said, the size of the financial reward per atomic skill provably learnt/maintained could be set by society (perhaps democratically, or by indirect usage count, i.e. for every computer sold, the weights/values (in societies budget for education) of logic, math, electronics goes up, for every helicopter sold the value of continuum mechanics (i.e. aerodynamics) goes up etc
18:39 < fltrz> indirectly every helicopter ride paid for, increases the budget of the helicopter operator to buy (maintain) new helicopter (parts), so also up the value of all knowledge/skills used for helicopters
18:41 < fltrz> in this way, 'religious' hotheads don't get monopoly on what is perceived as 'Truth'
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18:46 < fltrz> in order to assess what knowledge was used in creating say the computer from brand B, you look at all skills learnt/maintained by employees of B and increase the values of those skills
18:48 < fltrz> since brand B bought parts (say GPU, HDD etc) from other brands B', their knowledge has already been updated when the B bought components from B'
18:48 < fltrz> employees have incentive to regularly redo objective exams by society to prove their skills, since even as an adult you are rewarded for learning or maintaining a skill
18:49 < fltrz> this somewhat prevents skills from being hidden from public
18:55 < fltrz> horrible parents would confiscate this income from the child, and have it study as much as it can, hence the most important skill is to teach children their civil rights, so they can escape (or threaten their parents with escape, and loss of income) by renting their own room with their income from education
18:55 < fltrz> automatically encourages independent thought as opposed to sheeple
18:56 < fltrz> (the threat of) this dynamic causes parents to think twice at every turn of interaction with their child
18:56 < fltrz> which they should anyway, if you dont want to abuse your children
18:58 < fltrz> if they treat their children right, the child will probably chip in financially with the household
18:58 < nmz787> ebowden: hothousing? to me a hothouse == greenhouse
18:58 < fltrz> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hothousing
18:58 < fltrz> I never heard of hothousing before either
19:02 < nmz787> I am thinking more about when the child is too small to move, pretty much
19:02 < nmz787> or better-than-cartoons for later on
19:03 < nmz787> well, I mean, obviously there are things that are better than cartoons that can be learning and fun
19:03 < fltrz> in that case I don't see harm in exposing it to information, on the condition that it can switch it on or off
19:03 < nmz787> but for more abstract concepts
19:04 < nmz787> but in general, I'm thinking very basic bootstrapping/bringup... reading and speaking
19:04 < fltrz> nmz787: how about phonetic alphabet first?
19:04 < nmz787> and if it can't understand, might as well show and read it wikipedia instead of stories
19:06 < fltrz> the vowels are 4 dimensional: volume, pitch, and the 2 dimensional Height and Backness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vowel
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19:10 < fltrz> nmz787: can it touch a touchscreen?
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19:13 < heath> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VR1A6bSh46c
19:13 < yoleaux> SHARKTOPUS VS WHALEWOLF Trailer (2015) - YouTube
19:16 < heath> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pIeSYhipUs
19:16 < yoleaux> Splice Official Trailer #1 - (2009) HD - YouTube
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19:20 < fltrz> nmz787: consider a media player with cartoons or whatever childrens programmes (or documentaries), but from a purely entertainment viewpoint, and consider it as reward
19:22 < fltrz> now consider the media player is interrupted with "commericals" that block the media player until the child has enough "credits" to unlock it, so when the child is "broke" it can do whatever tasks you require (matching spoken letters/words with written letters/words for example)
19:24 < fltrz> to increase its credits, as soon as the credits (best in unary, or displayed as a bar length) are high enough it changes color and it can be clicked to go back to media player, or the child can choose to continue the exercises so as to be able to use the media player longer until the child is broke
19:24 < fltrz> i.e. the bar length / credit represents seconds/minutes of media player usage
19:24 < fltrz> so instead of commercials its exercises
19:26 < fltrz> the credit system encourages delayed gratification
19:26 < fltrz> which causes the child over time to appreciate the value of study
19:27 < fltrz> and eventually like study
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19:28 < fltrz> nmz787: its not my idea of ideal baby/toddler education, but rather the most bang-per-buck approach, in the sense that educational software probably exists, and media players exist, so its a matter of duct-taping them together in this blackmail scheme
19:31 < fltrz> also, it does not force study, in the sense that the child can simly ignore the displayed exercise, at the cost of no longer being able to control the media player
19:32 < fltrz> the success/error rate of the educational software will tell you when to arrange for new educational software
19:32 < fltrz> or larger vocabulary
19:33 < heath> fltrz: you want https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cznxe3TCevk
19:34 < heath> https://github.com/joelbyler/elixir_conf_chores
19:35 < fltrz> watching now
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20:19  * nmz787 also watching
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21:34 < fltrz> I just finished reading the Mary Lou Jepsen (from openwater) thesis on holographic video setup she did at MIT, I am pretty sure I had read it years ago, as I instantly remembered the reference to potentially using un/de-capped RAM chip as a SLM, by using the local fields on the capacitors/transistors to modulate light
21:35 < fltrz> as was used to visually debug and inspect the state of integrated electronics in the past
21:37 < fltrz> I was piqued to check out her thesis again (without realizing I had read it before) because in one of the interviews she claimed having made 1 micron pixels in 1989
21:40 < fltrz> however, in reality it was just utilizing an acousto-optic modulator as a linear display (which can have substantial delay bandwidth products), so yes you can use it as a linear pixel array with 1 micron size virtual 'pixels'
21:41 < fltrz> her current proposal to use submicron LCD screens for holography is valid in the sense its widely accepted this is possible if you actually have commercially feasible LCDs with this pixel pitch
21:42 < fltrz> its just that LCD's of such resolution are not (openly) available anywhere commercially
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21:50 < fltrz> I do believe the implications for healthcare are enormous as she describes, for both diagnosis and treatment like target delivery of drugs etc
21:51 < fltrz> it seems to me it may be possible to even regrow nerves of paralyzed people non-invasively
21:52 < fltrz> seems like surgery will eventually be relegated to emergency only situations
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22:01 < fltrz> I saw this documentary Freightened about global shipping industry, and how the environmental load of cars etc worldwide are only a small fraction of that of container ships
22:03 < fltrz> I wonder if the "global conveyor belt" thermohaline circulation current could be used for transport of goods, i.e. some kind of container submarine that simply gets dragged along with the current, but I have no idea what velocity
22:05 < fltrz> scratch that: " the oldest waters (with a transit time of around 1000 years)"
22:06 < nmz787> so I'm pretty sure I could get the same web-portal thing working with Python and Flask instead of that Elixir+Phoenix on an Erlang VM (I'd never heard of the first two, and only really know the name erlang but nothing about it)
22:10 < fltrz> yes I think the language doesnt matter much, use what you prefer, but the captive portal seems less usefull for a child still learning how to speak/read etc
22:10 < fltrz> I can definitely see the utility for older self-reliant children though
22:14 < nmz787> yeah
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22:16 < nmz787> I guess I really just need to find a flashcard system that can pair audio with images, and then a nice well curated dataset
22:16 < nmz787> then there'd be the lesson/algorithm for serving content
22:17 < kanzure> megablort
22:19 < fltrz> I don't have children (yet), so I imagine you have a better idea of what content you want to put on the device first? alphabets, vocabulary, or something else? pictures of objects in the house with words spoken by both parents, so they have to guess the right picture for the word?
22:19 < fltrz> I can imagine pictures of the specific forks, chairs etc you have in the house to be more relevant than random pictures from the web
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22:21 < fltrz> i.e. the child will have an easier time understanding "bathroom" and "kitchen" if the pictures are the specific rooms in your house
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22:39 < nmz787> fltrz: very good point
22:40 < nmz787> when I was a kid, my mom was practicing spanish, and had some labels on a few things in the house
22:41 < nmz787> (I could read by then, I think)
22:44 < fltrz> I also recall me and my sister growing up in belgium where we spoke dutch at school, but my mother was from the US, and she made a folder of pages, with pictures of pots and pans etc from commercial folders, and wrote the english words under them
22:46 < nmz787> hmm, the dataset creation would be a lot easier if there was some way to just brain dump from my head
22:46 < nmz787> use that LCD stuff to extract my brain and re-induce it on a fresh brain
22:47 < kanzure> nmz787: seriously just read the parenting literature out there. shit like "reading books 30 minutes/day" is way more effective long-term than sign language.
22:47 < nmz787> kanzure: well sign language for a few key commands/status seem very useful for immediate bootstrapping
22:48 < nmz787> hungry, thirsty, pee, poo, pain, tired
22:48 < fltrz> I wouldnt stress to much about creation of the dataset, just have a recorder or notes when you interact with the child, and then convert the recording to text with voice recognition, then filter the words that can be concrete objects (with wordnet you can find out what words can be concrete objects IIRC), then display this list as a TODO to take pictures of
22:49 < kanzure> nmz787: i think i have a way to use the data storage stuff to jump to biologically-relevant synthesis
22:49 < nmz787> kanzure: word.
22:49 < nmz787> email?
22:49 < kanzure> no the method isn't email?
22:49 < nmz787> haha
22:49 < nmz787> I mean are you going to share in the email chain
22:50 < kanzure> oh
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22:50 < kanzure> uhh
22:50 < fltrz> nmz787: I think the bodily hungry, thirsty, pee, etc could be visualized with symbols, such that the child can press them and discover what they do, perhaps print stickers of the symbols and put them on objects like the crib, the food bottle, etc
22:50 < nmz787> I mean, or here, or in PM
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22:52 < fltrz> the pressing on symbols is on the tablet or whatever
22:53 < fltrz> i.e. if the child presses the hungry button, you come and bring the bottle with food
22:54 < fltrz> of course, you put a cry wolf behaviour in it, so that over time you will be only alerted when the child really is hungry
22:56 < fltrz> perhaps visualize the number of cry wolf attempts as a bar length too for each symbol, i.e. if the child is thirsty and presses the thirsty button but then ignores the drink you bring, the bar length decreases, and the child can run out, so it learns that it should save the drink button for when it is honestly thirsty
22:57 < fltrz> if it runs out of thirsty attempts it will just have to wait
22:57 < nmz787> well I'm not sure muscle coordination is good enough, relative to 6 different vocalizations would be
22:57 < nmz787> a few grunts, bleeps, and derps
22:57 < nmz787> would get you past the diaper period at least, I'd guess/hope
22:58 < fltrz> nmz787: not sure I follow what you mean, the sounds will be easier for the child than buttons?
22:58 < fltrz> how about eye tracking?
23:00 < nmz787> yeah
23:00 < nmz787> basically babies can cry at birth, but not move too much til maybe 6 months
23:01 < nmz787> at least enough that you generally don't worry about them even being able to roll over on their own
23:01 < fltrz> for positioning the cursor eye tracking, and for 'clicking' a specific sound?
23:01 < nmz787> that's an interesting idea
23:03 < fltrz> not sure how good eye tracking is with consumer webcams, and if 1 camera is enough or if you need 2
23:04 < fltrz> it may also be hard to calibrate, for calibration you'd need to have 0 distractions, while displaying interesting small objects on the screen and move them around (continuously) to the borders and center
23:04 < nmz787> I know a guy who did some eye tracking research in college for deaf people, I think
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23:05 < fltrz> I guess, when its awake at night, in a non-agitated state, and any motion on the screen attracts attention is ideal to calibrate the camera
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23:35 < kanzure> megablort 2
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23:52 < nmz787> .wik paul trap
23:52 < yoleaux> "A quadrupole ion trap is a type of ion trap that uses dynamic electric fields to trap charged particles. They are also called radio frequency (RF) traps or Paul traps in honor of Wolfgang Paul, who invented the device and shared the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1989 for this work." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_trap
--- Log closed Mon Nov 06 00:00:07 2017